Vol. 620 No. 3
6 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Minister for Education and Science if she has ensured that a representative from the Dublin Institute of Technology students’ union will have a seat on the Grangegorman Development Agency. [19952/06]
The relocation of DIT, which is spread over 30 different sites in Dublin, to a 65-acre campus in Grangegorman is a major priority for the Government. The move will enable the institute to provide better academic and support services for its nearly 20,000 students. It will also allow for much greater academic and social interaction between students of many different disciplines, providing a dynamic environment for a broad third level education in the heart of Dublin city centre. It also has great potential to regenerate an underdeveloped area of the north inner city. I recently announced the appointment of Mr. John Fitzgerald, city manager of Dublin City Council, as chairman of the Grangegorman Development Agency and I am considering the other appointments to the agency.
The general aim is to oversee the development of the lands at Grangegorman on behalf of the Departments of Education and Science and Health and Children, the Dublin Institute of Technology and the Health Service Executive. The Grangegorman Development Agency Act 2005 provides for a total membership of 15 in the agency, including the chairperson and chief executive officer. There is no specific provision for a student or staff representative from the DIT. The legislation provides that two ordinary members of the agency will be nominated by the president of DIT and it is clearly a matter for the president to determine who to nominate having regard to the functions of the agency set out in the Act and its governance role in the development. The legislation recognises the student body of DIT specifically among the stakeholders that should be represented on the consultative group provided for in section 22 of the Act. Up to two members of the consultative group can come from the student body.
My officials recently met the president of DIT students' union and explained how the consultative group will give the stakeholders an opportunity to outline their views and participate fully in the Grangegorman development. The Act also provides for the consultative group to hold as many meetings as may be necessary to maintain an adequate communications strategy concerning the development of the Grangegorman site. The consultative group reports to the chairperson of the agency.
Does this mean that a representative of the students' union will be appointed to the agency by the Minister? Can she make such an appointment given that six appointments are outstanding? I accept the agency's role is to oversee the lands and so on and I accept two ordinary members, including my party colleague, Mr. Christy Burke, are on the consultative group. Is there a compelling reason for the exclusion of a representative of the students' union on the agency? The agency should be inclusive and, given that more than 21,000 students will attend the institute, I hope the Minister will consider the appointment of a student representative. The other agencies and stakeholders will be represented and it would be positive if the students' union were involved in the early work of the agency. While I accept the students are represented on the consultative group, perhaps the Minister will consider the appointment of a representative of the student body to the agency.
The agency comprises two persons appointed by the Minister for Health and Children, one of whom is a Health Service Executive officer; two persons nominated by the DIT president — the nominees come from the governing authority on which the students' union is represented; one person nominated by the city manager of Dublin City Council; one person who is a resident of Grangegorman; one member of Dublin City Council; and I nominate the remaining six members. They must reflect all interests, including my own and the Department's. I must wait to see who is nominated by the other bodies before I can determine my appointments.
7 Mr. McHugh asked the Minister for Education and Science if her Department will re-evaluate the new DEIS programme in view of the fact that a large number of County Mayo schools in disadvantaged areas will lose out owing to this new programme; her views on whether the children affected cannot afford this educational loss; when the results of the review mechanism, as previously mentioned by her, will be available; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [19821/06]
No school has been informed it will lose the resources it has received under existing schemes for tackling disadvantage as a result of the introduction of the new delivering equality of opportunity in schools, DEIS, initiative. The new school support programme is aimed at providing even more resources for the most disadvantaged schools. Schools that did not qualify for the new programme will keep the additional resources they are getting under existing schemes for the 2006-07 school year and, after that, they will continue to get support in line with the level of disadvantage among their pupils.
The new DEIS programme will be of huge benefit to schools in County Mayo. Four urban-town primary schools, 59 rural primary schools and six second level schools in Mayo have been invited to benefit from all the resources available from the new programme. Almost 20% of all the rural schools invited to benefit from the new programme nationally are in Mayo. It is important to ensure that schools serving the most disadvantaged communities get all the additional support possible and will welcome the extra resources DEIS will provide for Mayo schools.
DEIS was designed with this goal in mind. For example, over the years, no fewer than eight separate schemes for disadvantaged primary schools have been put in place. Some schools were benefiting from just one or two of these and others were benefiting from more. The DEIS initiative is designed to ensure the most disadvantaged schools benefit from a comprehensive package of supports, while ensuring others continue to get support in line with the level of disadvantage among their pupils.
I assure the Deputy there is no reason for schools that have not been identified for the new programme to be concerned as they will continue to get support in line with the level of disadvantage among their pupils. No school in Mayo or any other county has been informed it will lose any resources as a result of DEIS. A review mechanism has been put in place to address the concerns of schools that did not qualify for inclusion in the school support programme but regard themselves as having a level of disadvantage to warrant their inclusion in the programme. This mechanism will operate under the direction of an independent person charged with ensuring all relevant identification processes and procedures were properly followed in the case of schools applying for a review. It is intended that the review process will be completed by the end of the current school year.
I thank the Minister for her reply. IDA Ireland announced earlier that job creation in County Mayo fell again last year and, therefore, the county is in a bad way. Crossmolina national school has not been included under the school support programme. This school opened in 2002 and the teachers have done wonderful work under the various programmes. However, since then, the catchment area has been affected by job losses at Bellacorick power station, Bord na Móna, the ESB, Hennigans and Oasis in Ballina and Volex in Castlebar. The Bank of Ireland recently closed its branch in the town and four shops have closed as a result of the job losses. No new jobs have been created in the area since the school opened.
The school authorities cannot understand why the school has not been included in the programme. I acknowledge that no school has been informed it will lose resources but no commitment has been given that the school will not lose resources. The home-school-community liaison co-ordinator has been of great benefit to the school and I ask the Minister to consider this post, in particular. No funding is guaranteed after 2007 and the pupils could be left hanging. However, there is a concern about the assessment process, although a questionnaire was filled out.
In a place like Crossmolina, employment is temporary, such as the McAlpine operation for the ESB. There are no local authority houses in the area, although there should be, but just people in poor private rented accommodation, so the assessment process is questionable. When will this review process take place again and a school that has lost out be catered for? The reason Mayo accounts for 20% of rural national schools invited to benefit from the programme, is that Mayo is so badly off taking into account the BMW under spending of €4.65 billion and the transport under spending of €500 million. Therefore, it is not surprising that Mayo has more schools in the new programme. However, schools in Crossmolina, Lahardane, Currane, Tonragee are in an area where there has not been any job creation and where the situation has got worse rather than better. When the temporary employment in Crossmolina goes, what is the future for the area, when the assessment process depends on the pupil rather than the school?
Not only were schools not told that they would not lose, they were specifically told in a letter written to every school that participated that there would be no loss in 2006-07. I am surprised to hear that a school is questioning the survey because it was the schools that provided the information. The survey was independently based and assessed and spot-checked to ensure that the information was accurate. The schools provided the information and it was judged on very significant variables, namely, the percentage of unemployed, local authority accommodation, lone parents, Travellers, large families of five or more children, as well as the percentage of pupils eligible for free books. Each of these variables has an impact on educational outcome.
Mayo has a thriving economy and has received much investment from the Government over the years. It has the second highest participation rate in third level education in Ireland. It is not educationally disadvantaged and the schools that deserve it most in Mayo are getting it. The schools that have applied to be reviewed are currently being reviewed and they will be notified before the end of the school year.
Half of our graduates must go to Dublin to get their first job. These are transient jobs, so the unemployment rate is skewed. There is not enough local authority accommodation there, so basing the statistics on that is not correct either. I am questioning the process rather than the facts as presented.
I deal with the facts.
The fact is that the process is flawed.
It is not flawed.
The Minister listed the criteria involved, but she did not mention the retention rate, although that is one of the criteria for disadvantaged status. It seems unfair that the school works hard to keep the children in the school yet that will be held as an indicator that the school is not as disadvantaged as other primary indicators would suggest. Is the retention rate one of the criteria for disadvantaged status?
The variables listed are those for the primary school. The variables for second level schools are as follows: medical card data for junior certificate candidates; junior certificate retention rates by schools; junior certificate examination results aggregated by school level, based on the student's performance in the seven subjects in which he or she performed best; as well as leaving certificate retention rates by schools. These are the best indicators of the disadvantaged level in a school. There are fewer schools at second level that are looking for a review than at primary level. Some schools are managing to hold on to pupils and feel that they should not be penalised, but there are also schools that are not doing so and that are seriously disadvantaged. We must target these schools first. Schools will continue to receive a level of support in line with the level of socio-economic disadvantage that exists in the schools.
If schools meet all the other criteria, then that one issue should not prevent them from obtaining disadvantaged status. It discourages schools from retaining their pupils.
One of the problems with disadvantaged schools is the drop-out rate. Retention would indicate that there is a low drop-out rate.
If they are succeeding, they should not be punished.
Is the Minister stating categorically that disadvantaged schools will not lose resources?
Is rural disadvantage widespread? How does it compare to urban disadvantage? Do the rural schools miss out on disadvantaged status because they are not disadvantaged compared with urban areas? Will the Minister ensure that all projects dealing with education and particularly primary education are prioritised? Any society should prioritise education as of major importance and funding should always be available for education as it is a way out of poverty for the most disadvantaged people.
Every school that participated in the survey was informed in writing that no school would lose any current resources for 2006-07. The schools were also informed that beyond that they would receive resources in line with the level of socio-economic disadvantage in each school.
Rural schools are not compared with urban schools as there is separate category for the rural schools. There is a big difference between rural and urban disadvantage. Where there is a greater concentration of poverty and educational disadvantage in urban areas, then there is a greater level of disadvantage in the schools. That will be targeted in this project.
8 Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science about the effort being made to improve pupil-teacher ratios with particular reference to the specific needs in areas having higher than average ratios; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [20029/06]
Major improvements have been made in staffing at both primary and post-primary level in recent years. Next September there will be 4,000 extra teachers in our primary schools, when compared with 2002. Not only is the average class size in our primary schools down to 24, but there is now one teacher for 17 pupils at primary level, when resource teachers and so on are included. Children with special needs and those from disadvantaged areas are getting more support than ever before to help them to make the most of their time at school. With the thousands of extra primary teachers hired by the Government, recent years have seen the largest expansion in teacher numbers since the expansion of free education. Over the next two school years, more teachers will be put in place for the priority areas of disadvantage and special education and under a reduction in the mainstream staffing schedule.
Primary schools are staffed on a general rule of at least one classroom teacher for every 29 children. Schools with only one or two teachers have much lower staffing ratios than that, and in some cases there are two teachers for just 12 pupils. That will be reduced to 28 children per classroom teacher this September and in 2007-08 it will be reduced to 27 children per classroom teacher.
An initiative of direct benefit to primary schools in Kildare has been the change in the criteria for developing schools. For the current school year, the threshold for getting a developing school post was reduced specifically to help schools that are seeing large increases in enrolments each year, as is the case in many schools in Kildare. For the 2005-06 school year, 170 such posts were sanctioned, compared to 105 in 2004-05.
Major progress has also been made at second level. The pupil-teacher ratio at second level has been reduced from 16:1 in the 1996-97 school year to 13.4:1 in the 2004-05 school year. This reduction has been achieved through the creation of almost 1,800 posts and the retention of more than 2,000 posts that would otherwise have been lost due to falling enrolments. The Government has shown a clear determination to improve the staffing in our schools and we will continue to prioritise this issue.
Is the Minister aware that the average pupil-teacher ratio gives a misleading picture of a particular situation in some schools? Some schools have a pupil-teacher ratio well ahead of the average and if they were excluded from the creation of the average, then the examination and assessment would be skewed. Can she indicate the schools, not only in County Kildare but throughout the country, which are currently ahead of the national average and whether teachers, students and the standard of education are suffering? A reduction in class size of one child in each of the next two years is hardly a major onslaught on an element of education which is fundamental to students' future well-being. Is the Minister aware that teaching unions have expressed concerns about this issue, with particular reference to schools with a higher than average pupil-teacher ratio?
I reject the claim that the quality of education or teaching has disimproved. Students are certainly not suffering in that regard. There is no doubt that the 4,000 extra teachers employed in the system could have been deployed to reduce class size but the Government chose to prioritise children with special needs, who had been forgotten for many years, and disadvantaged schools. That is why, under projects like DEIS, pupil-teacher ratios are 20:1 in junior classes and 24:1 in senior classes in the most disadvantaged schools. Nobody could argue with that.
Some 5,000 teachers have been employed to work with children with learning difficulties or special needs. Formerly, these children were not included in our schools and were the first to drop out, so they had to be targeted. There is a tendency on the part of classroom teachers to ignore these extra staff, even though classroom teachers also benefit when children receive extra support from resource and learning support teachers.
Having addressed these priorities, we have now given a commitment to reduce class sizes over the next two years. I am unable to give a commitment beyond that.
Is the Minister aware of the schools in County Kildare which currently have an above average pupil-teacher ratio? This problem has existed for the past several years and will probably remain for a number of years to come unless urgent action is taken.
While I cannot treat County Kildare any differently to the rest of the country, that county and other developing areas have special status and will receive allocations based on a pupil-teacher ratio of 28:1 from September. We envisage that a further 500 teaching posts will be created next September because of enrolment increases and schedule changes. That increase will make a significant difference to class sizes.
The public representatives of County Kildare were invited to visit some classrooms in order to understand why overcrowding will make the new curriculum impossible to teach. Does the Minister accept the influence this issue will have on the educational outcome of the children concerned? Schools face space problems alongside the challenge of pupil-teacher ratios.
If local authority housing is used as a criterion for disadvantage, are people on housing waiting lists or in private rented accommodation being included? They are often forced to move repeatedly, which is not in the interest of children. For financial reasons, local authority housing lists would seem obvious criteria.
As regards disadvantage, each school provided and interpreted its respective information. Questions on local authority housing were asked and some schools may have included local authority housing waiting lists because they were familiar with the particular circumstances of their students.
In the coming school year, there will be no justification for classes of 33 or 34 students where a staff allocation has been made on a pupil-teacher ratio of 28:1.
Theoretically, there should be no justification but such is the reality. Has the Minister any way of responding to the challenges faced by schools in areas with huge demand for places? The parents in these areas want their children to attend local schools but classrooms are too small to accommodate them. Is an emergency response possible for these areas? For the sake of the children concerned, the Department needs to move more quickly.
A decision by a school to pack in more children is not sufficient reason for the Department to allocate an extra teacher.
They have nowhere else to go.
Schools are aware of their allocation and the physical space available to them. If it is a question of physical space, €500 million is being spent on school buildings this year and, through the permanent initiative, schools can build extra classrooms. Teachers have to be allocated fairly and objectively and we are prioritising developing and disadvantaged schools and special needs students. By September 2007, there will be nearly 4,500 more primary school teachers in our schools than when this Government came to power. That is making a real difference to children.
Extra teachers are not the only answer because extra space is also needed. When the Minister is working out her priorities for the next couple of years, will she treat the greater Dublin region differently to the rest of the country? She should look at the average figure for that region because it contains the schools under the greatest pressure. If they are as good as she claims, I will accept that but counties Kildare, Meath, Louth and Wicklow need urgent support. In respect of class sizes, some children in County Meath have to leave their school buildings to attend classes in houses across the road.
There is absolutely no evidence to support the Deputy's claim.
Laytown.
I am grateful to the Deputy for his confidence in my plans for teacher allocation over the next few years but he should also be aware that we have plans for individual areas.
I asked for average figures in respect of the greater Dublin region.
I never hear anybody acknowledging that there is one teacher for every 17 primary school students.
That is a basic entitlement.
9 Mr. Gogarty asked the Minister for Education and Science if officials in her Department have had discussions with the officials in the Department of Transport with regard to carrying out an independent audit of all public and private school buses, in view of the continuing safety concerns that exist. [19960/06]
An independent review requested by my colleague, the Minister for Transport, is currently being carried out within Bus Éireann. This review will look at the arrangements and systems in place for the management, operation and maintenance of the fleet of buses owned and contracted by Bus Éireann to ensure ongoing safety and roadworthiness. My officials will liaise with the Department of Transport regarding the outcome of the review.
Regular discussions are held between officials in the two Departments on matters pertaining to school transport operations. These discussions focus on such matters as seating and seat belt installations on school buses. Arising from contacts involving the two Departments, it was possible last year to announce a package of measures designed to enhance the safety of school transport operations. These measures include the phasing out of three-for-two seating arrangements and the installation of seat belts on all school buses. Arrangements are in hand to have these measures in place by the end of this year.
I thank the Minister of State for her reply. If she has any further light to shed on the issue, I would appreciate a description of the nature of the discussions which have taken place, given that a number of fatal and non-fatal accidents have occurred over the past year. I would like to be assured that a dialogue is taking place between the two Departments. I need to know, for example, that the Minister is fighting vociferously for a more stringent system of testing for school buses in particular, given the demographic and the youth of the children being carried by the buses. I have seen responses by the Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, on the independent review being carried within Bus Éireann on the management, operation and maintenance of its own and contract buses. Will this review be general for all buses or will there be a separate review for school buses? If so, what additional areas will be examined?
The responsibility for legislation on safety is with the Department of Transport. That is why the Department of Education and Science is in constant touch with the Department of Transport regarding school transport. In my initial reply I named two issues that we have discussed at length with the Department of Transport, namely the phasing out of three seats for two and the question of the installation of seat belts. That has been ongoing. I also referred to the independent review in Bus Éireann, to which the Deputy referred, and which is being carried on the instruction of the Minister for Transport.
Separately, the Minister, Deputy Cullen, has requested the chief executive designate of the proposed road safety authority to undertake a fundamental review of the arrangements for compulsory, periodic roadworthiness tests of goods vehicles and buses, so it is a wider issue. As part of that review, the matter of Bus Éireann undertaking such roadworthiness tests on its own vehicles will be examined.
What is special for school buses?
As I said, the situation is being reviewed independently within Bus Éireann. This review was instigated by the Minister last Tuesday. He has asked Bus Éireann to look at the management systems and operation and maintenance of school buses.
So it is on buses in general.
Yes, but in this context there is a specific reference to the school transport scheme.
I am glad to hear the Minister of State's upgrade aims are still on target for December this year. Can she, in her discussions with the Department of Transport, reinforce that we want a higher standard for our children and demand that we get the best, not just what passes the tests? The system of reviewing and issuing certificates must be checked as a matter of urgency. Surely it is a given that every school bus should have a fire extinguisher. Can the Department of Education and Science issue a set of rules that go beyond what is in place and pre-empt what might result from the court case on last year's Navan bus crash? That might lead us a certain way and set out better examples. Can the Minister of State pre-empt that and set out certain rules and standards, the least being that the bus driver is told what is on the bus to protect young people and required to check it every few days, separate to any certificate of roadworthiness?
Does the bus driver have overall responsibility for safety on the bus and is the decision with him or her or with the area depot manager? One hears stories about drivers being pressurised to drive buses to areas where they are uncomfortable or when they know there are faults. Is the Minister of State aware of any children being left behind owing to the new changes in regulation? If so, are there any proposals to increase the numbers of buses in those areas?
Might it not have been a good idea to accelerate the programme for reviewing the quality and safety of all buses associated with the school transport system immediately following the tragic accidents that took place?
The phasing out of the three children for two seats rule will mean one seat per person with a seat belt. We have always believed that the pursuit of those two issues is important. Work had been ongoing before the tragic accident in Navan on both those issues. The one for one seating means we will have to find an extra 3,500 seats to provide every eligible child with his or her own seat and seat belt. We all wish to see the highest possible standards and would all work to those standards. The standards are set by the Department of Transport and we in the Department of Education and Science wish that those standards be followed to the highest possible level.
People feel strongly about seat belts, which would lead to a safer regime in the buses. That is why we have gone one step further than the directive, which came into law this month and says seat belts must be worn in all buses that have them. We wanted to go far beyond that to ensure that seat belts would be provided for each seat and each child. That underlines the importance my Department places on the allocation of a seat belt for each child. I do not wish to comment on any particular accident because there are ongoing Garda and other investigations which must be allowed to continue without any influence. As far as I am aware, there must be fire extinguishers on buses.
Written Answers follow Adjournment Debate.
