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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 30 May 2006

Vol. 620 No. 4

Priority Questions.

Tourism Industry.

John Perry

Ceist:

66 Mr. Perry asked the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources with regard to the €1,000 which has been allocated to tourism angling in the Revised Estimates for 2006, the reason such a small amount has been allocated considering that an indicative budget of over €30 million of Exchequer funding was identified for the tourism and recreational angling measure of the National Development Plan 2000-2006; as state aids clearance for the launch of this measure was received from the European Commission in March 2002, the reason no funding been allocated to the scheme since 2003; the location the €30 million, which was due to be spent under TRAM, has been re-directed to; his views on the economic depression that the downturn in the tourism angling industry is having on many parts of the country; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20961/06]

Originally, indicative funding of €30.476 million was allocated to the tourism and recreational angling measure, TRAM, over the period of the National Development Plan 2000-2006. However, as the Deputy is aware, the launch of the measure was delayed until 2002 pending clearance from the European Commission on the issue of state aids. Unfortunately, economic conditions changed and a reduced financial allocation of €1.775 million was agreed by the Department of Finance for 2002-03. This reflected the Department of Finance and Estimate review committee adjustment of public expenditure in light of the changed economic climate and global national budgetary priorities.

The mid-term review of the NDP by the ESRI concluded that the external environment with regard to the tourism sector had deteriorated to the extent that the likely return to further investment in the sector was unlikely to have high returns. As a result, funding for TRAM was diverted to higher priority tourism projects.

The report of the tourism policy review group to the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism in September 2003 observes a decline in activity holidays that is not confined to angling but includes cycling and hill walking. Fáilte Ireland is carrying out research among tour operators involved in promoting special activity holidays and special activity holidaymakers. Problems identified include rising costs and access to activities. Fáilte Ireland has also identified angling among main areas of activity for which detailed marketing plans have been agreed, targeting the markets offering the best short-term return.

The Marine Institute is separately drafting a strategy for the development of marine tourism, including angling tourism, into the future, which will be agreed with Fáilte Ireland in the context of the new national development plan.

The Deputy is aware of the Government's policy for the restructuring of the inland fisheries sector. Discussions are ongoing between the Department and the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism with a view to specifying the role of the inland fisheries sector in support of the areas of angling tourism and leisure development. I am confident this particular element of the reform decided by Government is necessary to ensure our tourism and recreational angling sector thrives and reaches its full potential. This reform will allow for the development of a more coherent policy and strategy for tourism and recreational angling which will retain all that is best in the sector while at the same time making the role of the State in delivering on its objectives in this area more focused and effective.

Will the Minister of State explain the higher priority tourism issues given that a reduced financial allocation of €1 million was agreed at the Estimates meeting last week? He indicated clearly that was in line with the Farrell Grant Sparks report on inland fisheries. In 1999, 54,000 anglers came to Ireland while the number has now reduced to 20,000. The State can allocate only €1 million to tourism angling for 2006-07 yet €30 million which was ring-fenced for the BMW region was diverted to higher priority tourism projects. What could be more important than tourism angling?

The Minister of State did not explain that when he was in Roscommon.

I was in Roscommon recently where I launched a few good tourism projects. I was surprised the Deputy did not turn up although his colleague, the Senator, turned up and got into all the photographs.

He had other priorities.

Obviously the priority was for the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, and the money went into that area. I am sure that a substantial amount of the money allocated by the Minister went to the west. There is not much point in looking back at this stage. I remind the Deputy that €38 million has been allocated this year to the central and regional fisheries boards which are involved in a certain amount of tourism promotion. I intend to have discussions with the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue, in the next few weeks as we prepare the national development plan 2007-13. Tourism angling cannot be treated in isolation of all the other tourist products but should be treated on a regional basis. The money was taken back three or four years ago for a genuine reason. I certainly hope we can find a mechanism to develop tourism angling into the future. I agree with Deputy Perry that it is an important sector of the tourism industry.

In recent weeks I attended various tourism angling projects throughout the country, a few of which were in my own county, which were developed by local hoteliers and business people, in conjunction with anglers from England, Wales and other parts of Europe, without State aid. There is a need for State aid but there is also a need for private investment in this area and I think that will be forthcoming.

With respect, the Minister of State said €38 million was allocated but I note from the Estimate that €28 million was allocated to marine and natural resources for inland fisheries. I appreciate the Minister of State is new to the portfolio although he held the portfolio previously but was the money diverted to other Fáilte Ireland activities and a notional payment of €1 million allocated for 2006-07? In light of the Farrell Grant Sparks report on inland fisheries CEOs and staff do not know where they are going. Will the Minister of State agree that when it comes to tourism angling we are dead in the water on this issue?

I accept I said €38 million was allocated, but I should have said €28 million was allocated. I do not accept that tourism angling is dead in the water.

It is very much dead in the water.

It is like the mayfly.

It is being developed around the country. We are preparing the national development plan 2007-13. It is intended to have discussions with the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue, because of the need for an inter-linking between the two Departments if tourism is to be developed into the future. Tourism angling cannot be developed in isolation of other tourist products. I hope to develop a proper tourism angling——

The Minister of State talks the talk but when it comes to walking the walk he has diverted the money. Will he agree that to develop tourism angling, money is needed? To put €1 million into the Estimate for 2006-07 is an insult to the whole industry.

Hear, hear.

If one adds up the amount of money that has been spent — Deputy Naughten mentioned it earlier — by the regional fisheries boards on the promotion of tourism angling one will find it is far greater than €1 million.

The Minister of State lost €10 million in half an hour.

I call Question No. 67. Order, please.

Telecommunications Services.

Thomas P. Broughan

Ceist:

67 Mr. Broughan asked the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources if he will report on the recently established digital terrestrial television pilot; the timeframe for a national roll-out of DTT; the way in which he intends to manage spectrum space as the digitisation process advances; if he will confirm that 2012 is the date for analogue switch-off; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20861/06]

I hope Deputies opposite will not complain about not getting through too many questions at the end of this Question Time given that they will not allow answers to be given.

The digital terrestrial television, DTT, pilot programme is being implemented by my Department. The purpose of the pilot is to bring further momentum to the transition to digital terrestrial broadcasting and to test and trial various aspects of the service. Detailed procurement processes, inviting expressions of interest and tenders for various aspects of the infrastructure build programme, were recently completed by my Department. The infrastructure for the DTT pilot is in the roll-out phase and is expected to be operational by autumn 2006.

The initial transmission sites are at Clermont Carn in the north east and Three Rock covering parts of the Dublin region. The trial is planned to continue over a two-year timeframe and will provide the opportunity for technical and user testing of both existing and new broadcast services.

In regard to spectrum for DTT, a major conference under the auspices of the International Telecommunications Union is taking place in Geneva between European, African and Middle Eastern countries, which will set the rules to ensure that each country gets equitable access and protection for spectrum for digital broadcasting. Ireland is represented at the conference by a delegation headed by an official of my Department and includes representatives from ComReg, the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland and RTE.

Once the conference has concluded we may begin to develop a plan to manage the digitisation process to ensure protection to our existing analogue services and to manage any moves to digital terrestrial television in Ireland.

The DTT pilot project under way demonstrates my commitment to the long-term provision of free-to-air DTT in Ireland. I expect the pilot will generate awareness and discussion among broadcasters, investors and other interested parties with a view to moving towards a full national roll-out of DTT in time.

As the pilot is developed and proposals for a national DTT roll-out emerge, I will outline my intentions regarding possible dates for a switch-off of analogue to digital terrestrial television broadcasts. Switch-off of analogue television services is being strongly advocated by the European Commission, with 2012 a target date suggested by the Commission. While the pilot is under way, I intend to hold discussions with all relevant stakeholders around the issue of analogue switch-off. When decisions have been taken about the nature and timing of analogue switch-over, it will be necessary to ensure that Irish viewers are fully informed of all the issues arising. All stakeholders will have a role in so informing viewers.

I thank the Minister for his reply and the fact that from August there will be a pilot DTT scheme. Why is the Minister just launching a pilot in the dying days of the Government and why has he not carried out the necessary research and preparation for the digital switch-over? What impact will the digital switch-over have on households? How many households will be affected? What percentage of total TV viewing households will be affected? Why has the Minister not decided on a switch-off date? He has been talking of the EU date, but the UK has a definite switch-off date for of 2012 and Northern Ireland and Wales will switch from analogue to digital in 2009, just three years away. In the committee discussion, I said the Minister was an analogue politician in a digital age. Is there a danger we will have a re-run of the broadband disaster? We are at the bottom of the EU league for broadband and will be the same for digital TV and broadcasting. Has the Minister's lethargy in recent years laid the basis for this?

Has the Minister given ComReg any role in this area? What is ComReg doing? Where are the reports such as we read from Ofcom, the BBC and the British Government, regular reports on public broadcasting in the digital age, for example? We have nothing similar here. It is a complete wasteland.

When we move to digital, the analogue spectrum will be very valuable. Has the Minister any plans in this area, or has he evaluated the best approach towards the management of our spectrum as the digital age develops? Will the Minister adopt a market-led approach with TV companies bidding, or how will he maximise the value to the country? For what uses should the switched-off spectrum space be made available? Will the Minister put the bulk of it into high-definition TV, mobile TV, or what? Within eight or nine months of a general election, has the Minister thought about any of these matters?

I try not to allow the date of a general election to dictate what I might or might not do.

It is very hard not to think about it.

As far as I can, I try to develop policy very carefully, do the background work and then make decisions on what is in the national interest, rather than from party political reasons or anything else.

I am delighted to tell the Deputy that everything he has started thinking about——

We have been thinking about these matters for a long time, even before the Minister was appointed.

The only indication I have that the Deputy has been thinking about these matters is during the past three or four months.

The Minister should look back at the parliamentary questions.

We have carefully thought about all the matters the Deputy mentioned. Various bodies with responsibilities in the area are developing their policies and working on recommendations and advice.

Deputy Broughan asked about the pilot project in 2002-03. My predecessor launched a competition for DTT in the private sector to gauge a response. There was no response to that from the private sector. The UK ploughed ahead in a similar experiment and lost some €2 billion. When I came into office I set about asking ComReg to put in place the regulation that would allow us to set up a pilot scheme. We carefully laid out all the tendering procedures and allowed people to tender for the pilot, to construct the platforms. From autumn we will be in a position to roll out the pilot scheme. I have done the research and organised a pilot scheme because I want to ensure that when we do this, we do it properly. A pilot scheme is a fairly conventional way of ensuring that.

If we are going to full digital television, DTT, every house will be affected. If we go that route, everybody will have to change from analogue televisions to digitised sets.

Has the Minister estimates on costs? What about the digital boxes?

It is quite a simple sum. One must add up the cost of the televisions that will have to be bought, perhaps one or two per household. That is a matter for the individual householder.

We are using the 2012 date as a guideline. Clearly there is no point in putting out a pilot, seeing how successful it is, finding out what the difficulties might be and ignoring all of that by setting a date which is not realistic.

Will it be rolled out before 2012?

I am trying to inform the Deputy. He has asked me a series of questions which I have noted.

As Deputy Broughan noted, ComReg has a role with regard to broadcasting and the use of spectrum and so on. We had to consult with it with regard to getting regulations in place as part of the lead-in, so we could roll out a pilot scheme. ComReg is considering the use of spectrum. Tomorrow I will address an OECD conference with regard to spectrum use into the future. The ITU is also involved in this. When that conference is finished in Geneva we will have a much clearer picture.

Broadcasting Legislation.

Eamon Ryan

Ceist:

68 Mr. Eamon Ryan asked the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources further to recent comments by the European Commissioner for Media, Ms Viviane Redding, that the regulation of transnational satellite broadcasters should be addressed by member states acting on a bilateral, amicable basis and her further comments that the codification of the European Court of Justice case law in this area would allow member states to take measures against an audiovisual media service provider established in another member state that directs, for fraudulent purposes, all or most of its activity to this member state, the measures he intends to take to ensure that satellite broadcasters who are inserting local advertising into their main programme schedule can be subject to regulations set by the State on such advertising. [21058/06]

I am aware of the useful comments made by the commissioner and her recognition of the concerns of a substantial number of member states on this issue.

While I appreciate there is scope for some resolution of the issue through the recommendations of the Commissioner, my objective is to ensure that the regulatory framework at EU level provides a formal basis for national measures to have meaningful reach.

The key issue concerns jurisdiction over broadcasters along with the application of national rules. Throughout the Commission's consultation over the past two years, and at a recent Council meeting, Ireland, along with a number of other member states, has consistently argued for a fundamental shift in the approach to determining which member states' national rules should apply to any given broadcasting service. We have argued that in the case of a television channel that primarily targets Ireland, it is Ireland's national measures that should apply to that channel. Each broadcasting service should only be subject to one set of national rules, but it makes sense that the one set of rules that should apply to any broadcasting service should be the broadcasting standards of the member state primarily targeted by that service.

Ireland will continue to work with other member states and the Commission with a view to progressing consideration of the proposed revised directive. The approach agreed on jurisdiction will impact on Ireland's position on other elements of the proposal.

I thank the Minister and apologise for the cumbersome nature of my question.

It seems clear the Commissioner does not agree with Ireland in this case and that the new television frontiers directive will not accept the points that Ireland and other members have made, that broadcasters which are inserting advertising into broadcasts into particular countries should be subject to regulations in those countries. Going by her statement, the Commissioner is clearly not going to take a strong line and will leave the matter to bilateral, amicable approaches. Where they do not work, she agrees codification of law may apply, but only where broadcasting is carried out for fraudulent purposes. Given that nobody would say that companies such as Sky or Nickleodeon are engaging in fraudulent broadcasting, how are we to implement our broadcasting regulations on such advertising since the Commissioner will not include such provisions in an updated televisions without frontiers directive? Where do we go from here?

The Deputy has given quite a succinct statement of the Commissioner's position, but in the end of the day, Commissioners do not make the final decision on directives. They have to go to EU Council, Parliament and so on. As that process continues, Ireland will clearly maintain its position. We have the support, on a consistent basis — in many respects we have led this — of 12 other member states which have argued for this fundamental approach to determining which member states' national rules should apply to any given broadcasting service. A solution will have to be worked out. On more than one occasion I have told the Commissioner and the UK Presidency that we would like serious and meaningful engagement by the Commission on the matter. The Deputy is correct that the Commissioner has taken a trenchant view on this aspect of the directive. We also have an equally strong position on it. Unless there is some movement on both sides, there will be difficulty in getting the directive through. We will not be bullied into this but will use whatever means are available to achieve our aims or a reasonable compromise.

Does the proposal for an updated directive require unanimity from all 25 member states? Is it possible for Ireland to force the issue so that we have such control? If 12 member states are in support of such a position, is the major obstacle to the proposal from neighbouring countries, active in satellite broadcasting? At the committee on communications, marine and natural resources, the head of Sky Broadcasting was asked if it would commit to the basic and simple standards on children's advertising in place in Ireland. We failed, however, with such a bilateral and amicable approach to reach an agreement that Sky Broadcasting would be bound by Irish regulations. Has the Department approached any company inserting children's advertising into satellite programming to agree to abide to our codes on a voluntary basis?

Twelve member states support the Irish position, making it a total of 13 member states. I do not have the list of those member states but I can forward it to the Deputy. The Commission has been pursuing the particular line referred to earlier. Several other member states, including our neighbour, the UK, have been advocating the Commission's line. There is a clear divide. It will not be decided by unanimity as the new rules on voting strengths will apply. However, 13 member states can make a sufficient blocking minority in this case. Although both sides are trenchant, I hope a reasonable compromise on this matter will be reached.

Telecommunications Services.

Bernard J. Durkan

Ceist:

69 Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources if he will use the occasion of the transfer of ownership of Eircom to set out new ground rules with precise targets and review dates for the development of the telecommunications sector with particular reference to the provision of broadband, fixed-line and mobile services in all areas in the shortest possible time; if he will use his powers of direction through the regulator to set out a precise programme of investment in the telecommunications sector, with a view to extending a full range of modern information technology services to all areas, urban and rural; if he will set out precise guidelines and objectives for the investment in and upgrading of the sector with a view to setting the highest possible standard as befits a developing economy in a competitive market; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21038/06]

The sale of Eircom, which is not a State company, does not affect or change the regulatory environment in the telecommunications sector. The provision of telecommunications services, including broadband, fixed-line and mobile services is a matter in the first instance for the private sector companies operating in a fully liberalised market, regulated by the independent Commission for Communications Regulation, ComReg, in accordance with the requirements of the Communications Regulation Act 2002, and the transposed EU regulatory framework for electronic communications networks and services. I have no powers to directly influence the behaviour of private sector companies.

The telecommunications sector employs approximately 14,500 people and is worth over €4 billion. The Central Statistics Office's consumer price index shows that between 1997 and January 2006 telephone and communications prices have fallen by almost 25%. The price of fixed calls in Ireland is better than the EU average for both national and international calls for residential and business customers. Ireland has a mobile telephone penetration rate of 102%, which shows the appetite for consumers for these types of services and the variety of mobile services in the market including 3G services.

In comparison to other European states, broadband providers in Ireland, including the incumbent Eircom, were slow in launching competitive and affordable broadband services. However, the situation is improving rapidly and the current level of take-up is consistent with the stage of development of the market. Ireland is now the fastest growing broadband economy in the EU.

The Government is addressing the infrastructure deficit in the regions by building high-speed open access metropolitan area networks, MANs, in 120 towns and cities on a phased basis in association with the local and regional authorities. The Department also offers funding assistance for smaller towns and rural communities to become self-sufficient in broadband through the county and group broadband scheme. To date, over 150 projects have been approved for funding. A joint industry-Government fund of €18 million has been established for the broadband for schools programme, which will provide every school with broadband. This programme is almost complete with over 90% of schools broadband enabled.

Is the Minister aware of public concern over the lack of speedy provision of broadband? Is he aware of the concerns over the lack of progress in the development of the IT sector since Eircom was privatised? Will the Minister accept that the degree of investment in the infrastructure in the intervening period has not been sufficient, satisfactory or in keeping with the requirements of a modern economy? Will he accept that the opportunity has been presented for him to stamp his authority on the development of the telecommunications sector through ComReg? Is the Minister aware of the fundamental part that the services provided by the telecommunications sector will play in the economy and the need for the rapid provision of such services?

Anyone who has the read all my statements as the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources will be in no doubt that I am well aware of the importance of broadband provision and a good telecommunications infrastructure. I am sure Deputy Durkan reads them avidly on a daily basis.

I stay up all night reading them.

They probably keep him up all night.

He does not read fiction.

Over the past several years, the Government has been committed to the roll-out of broadband. The policies put in place have been successful in increasing the numbers in broadband take-up. I agree with the Deputy on private sector investment in the services. That is why the MANs programme, the group broadband scheme and so forth were put in place. In the past several years there has not been the investment from the private sector that there should have been. This hindered the development of the market and left Ireland much further down the list than it should have been for such a thriving economy. The portrayal by others of Ireland as a backwater in IT and broadband is bad for the country's image. It is also false. If there was a truth in it, then the Government would be held to account for it. There is no truth in such a claim. One would not get all of the top companies in IT and in broadband setting up in this country if one did not have a proper telecommunications structure. We have a top class telecommunications structure but there are the difficulties to which the Deputy referred.

Some of the companies are leaving.

There is none of the top companies leaving this country because of broadband. There are still many of them coming in. We have the top 50 in the first flight initiative — like Yahoo, Google and Amazon — operating here and in second flight, we have ten of the top 15 companies. I am merely making the point that I do not let that blind me to the fact that there are blackspots where broadband is difficult, if not impossible, to achieve, and it can be very costly. The Government's approach to this is to try to tackle those particular problems.

The thrust of the Deputy's question was to try to see if I can give directions directly to ComReg so that it can give directions directly to the private companies.

The Minister can.

There are certainly areas about which we have spoken such as local loop unbundling where ComReg has attempted to issue directives. It has not been very successful in that regard to date. It is for that reason that we are inserting the extra powers into the electronic communications Bill currently being drafted. I accept there is a need for action in that particular area. However, there are areas to which the Deputy refers in which neither ComReg nor I, as Minister, can directly interfere because it would be in breach of EU and Irish law. Wherever we can do something to improve the situation, we do so and will continue to do so.

Would the Minister accept it is not necessarily a good idea for him to announce publicly that he cannot interfere and can do nothing as that gives a carte blanche for getting nothing done? In those circumstances will he make it clear to all investors in that area that the economy depends heavily on the investment, updating and speed with which the technology is introduced and provided to the wider community and that has a bearing on economy prosperity, and will he insist that those guidelines are kept to the fore at all times?

I would not like Deputy Durkan to interpret what I said earlier as an indication that I think I can and will do nothing.

Like the Meath team the other day.

I am doing things. I have met frequently, officially and unofficially, with some of the companies to which the Deputy refers. I have stressed, time and again, the important national interest involved in ensuring a speedy roll out of broadband and a top class telecommunications network.

One of the frustrations in attempting to deal with this was that commercial interests took precedence over the national interest. I hope that will change. It is a little ironic. Whereas often we get lectures in this House from people on the left and from trade unions etc., about the importance of worker participation and full involvement in companies, in one company in which the workers had a 25% stake they did not seem to influence policy in the national interest at all and I hope that will change when they own 35% of it.

Energy Regulation.

Thomas P. Broughan

Ceist:

70 Mr. Broughan asked the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources if he will bring forward measures to establish a consumer panel or a mechanism within CER to strengthen the representation within the regulatory body of the interests of consumers and businesses; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20860/06]

Under EU regulations on the internal energy markets the Commission for Energy Regulation — CER — has a direct legal obligation in relation to electricity and gas consumers. These include the requirement to protect the interests of final customers and to take account of the needs of vulnerable customers. The regulator is also required to ensure that all customers are supplied with electricity and gas of a specified quality at reasonable prices.

I welcome the stronger focus on consumer protection as part of the move to liberalised markets. The interests of customers are now better safeguarded within the regulatory regime. In carrying out this function the CER regularly engages with customers and customer representative organisations.

The CER had intended to develop specific consumer panels for the gas and electricity sectors. This proposal has been superseded by the establishment of the National Consumer Agency — NCA — by my colleague, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The agency's remit is to represent and progress consumers' interests across all economic sectors. It is also envisaged the agency will provide a strong consumer voice in the regulated sectors including energy.

The CER is working closely with the NCA to set up appropriate arrangements including a memorandum of understanding on information sharing and consultation and co-operation. The CER is also establishing a dedicated consumer complaint handling team which will handle all complaints about energy suppliers. The CER is also working to ensure that those licensed suppliers which supply domestic customers develop and comply with a customer charter. These are positive steps forward in the interests of energy consumers and I commend the CER and the NCA for their collaboration to date.

As we move towards the establishment of the single all-island electricity market next year, CER and the Northern Ireland regulator are working closely together to ensure the optimum market arrangements are in place to the benefit of consumers, North and South.

Is it not a fact that householders, citizens and businesses are waiting with trepidation to see what energy — electricity and gas — price rises will occur this year, with the gas industry obviously looking for a 40% price rise and the electricity industry looking for increases? Given that over the past four or five years there have been increases of the order of 60%, prices will have more than doubled in their period in Government. Is not the net result of this that businesses are threatened with inefficiency and householders, particularly in the case of senior citizens, end up being vulnerable, living in cold homes? The Minister will have noted the recent UCD study, for example, which showed that almost 20% of Irish households were considered not to have sufficient heat because often people felt they could not afford to turn it on. This results in senior citizens going around their homes in overcoats.

Would the Minister agree there is a serious problem and his answer is too blasé? Will he issue a directive to CER? Will he amend his Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2006 to allow for a statutorily based consumer panel within CER representing householders and business? Will he agree this is what is needed?

For example, each of the British regulators, Ofgem, Ofcom and PostCom, has a strong consumer lobby which does its best for consumers. Will the Minister agree he has failed Irish consumers? Will he agree it is shameful for the Government that last year's UCD study on household heating showed that up to 650 elderly people may have died because of cold because of the Government's failure to bring forward stronger measures to protect them?

Has the Minister spoken to the Minister for Finance about excise, VAT and indirect taxation on electricity, gas and oil? Is he undertaking any such discussions in the context of the final budget of this Government? Many citizens feel there should be intense discussions about how to hold the price of energy in this difficult time.

Has the Minister spoken to his United Kingdom counterpart on the problem with wholesale gas prices in the UK? Given the Irish gas market is effectively part of the UK gas market, is the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, having any input into it? Has there been any talk about the problems the UK has experienced with its gas market?

Does the Minister accept the view of distinguished economists such as Paul Hunt that there is an element of gold-plating in the gas network roll out and, indeed, possibly even in electricity roll outs, and that this is an area in which the Minister should take a pro-active role?

The Minister will probably agree that last winter was one of the coldest in our lifetime. For the sake of vulnerable households such as the elderly, would the Minister agree it is time he took a vigorous role on behalf of citizens, householders and businesses in energy pricing? It is not good enough to merely take a blasé, almost bystander, approach which is so characteristic of the Taoiseach and which the Minister is now adopting.

I do not believe in taking a Don Quixote role either——

That is better again.

——where one tilts at windmills as the Deputy is doing. The Deputy can make all the rhetorical speeches he likes about gas, electricity and oil prices. It does not matter how many Labour Party Members are on this side of the House — if they ever get over here again——

The Minister should take it easy.

——they will not be able to affect the price of international commodities, except perhaps for the worst if they adopt some of the left wing policies so espoused by their predecessors.

Will the Minister answer the question?

I am answering the question. If the Deputy is entitled to wander off and make all sorts of wild allegations about people dying as a result of price increases and so on, I am entitled to answer in the same tone.

In regard to what Deputy Broughan said about oil and gas prices, they are not set in the United Kingdom, they are set much further afield. They are international commodities and the price of gas and oil obviously affects the price of electricity in this country. We do not have a great deal of control over that element of our costs but we have and should have some control. About 70% of the cost of electricity is external to this country and the other 30% is internal. That is a sizeable amount. I hope when we come to deal with electricity costs and so on in terms of a future energy policy, we will get full and enthusiastic backing from the Labour Party and it will not, as it usually does, take the side of people who do not want change in that industry and who have succeeded——

The Minister should tell us what he will do.

I will tell the Deputy later this year and I will look for his enthusiastic support for the changes that will be necessary to ensure we can reduce some of the cost of electricity in this country.

I asked the Minister if he would make a simple amendment to the Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill in terms of having a consumer component in the CER. On this side of the House we read the consultations held by the CER and, depressingly, we believe consumers were not taken into account. The Minister could do this in the coming weeks before we conclude the Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. He could also issue directives in regard to the CER and refer to fiscal measures. What he said is not true, there are things the Minister can do. He is not just a bemused bystander, although he appears to be one.

I am far from it. I hope the Deputy will support me in my efforts to reduce the cost of electricity when the time comes and that he will not find some excuse——

We will see what the Minister does.

——to go off in a different direction just to placate some of his friends who are among the vested interests in this area——

I told the Minister who I represent.

——who are keeping up the price of electricity.

I represent householders.

The Deputy also represents some union members. He might have a chat with them in the meantime.

I represent householders first and foremost.

I am pleased to hear that is who the Deputy represents. I look forward to vigorous support from him during the summer if that is the case and thank him for his pledge of support in that regard.

The National Consumer Agency, which has been set up by the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, will undertake this role and examine future price applications in this area on behalf of consumers. The CER will also have its customer panels and customer charters in place. It has an obligation to take the customer into account as well as the market.

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