Joe Higgins
Ceist:1 Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach his legislative priorities for the Dáil session beginning 2007. [42760/06]
Ceisteanna — Questions.
Legislative Programme.
Enda Kenny
Ceist:2 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach his legislative priorities for the first half of 2007; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [43912/06]
Pat Rabbitte
Ceist:3 Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach his legislative priorities for the remainder of the 29th Dáil. [1004/07]
Trevor Sargent
Ceist:4 Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach his legislative priorities for the Dáil Éireann session beginning in 2007; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2348/07]
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin
Ceist:5 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach his legislative priorities for the remainder of the current Dáil; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3720/07]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 5, inclusive, together.
My Department has one item of legislation, the Statute Law Revision Bill, which was published on 1 February 2007 and is at Order for Second Stage in the Seanad.
This Bill will continue the process of modernising the Statute Book by repealing 3,188 ancient statutes, dating from between 1200 and 6 December 1922, that are now redundant or obsolete. The Bill will also positively retain 1,348 statutes from the same period, as they are not proposed for repeal at present.
Ultimately, it is the intention that all legislation that pre-dates the foundation of the State will be repealed. Where we need to keep the provisions of any pre-1922 legislation, it is intended that these will be re-enacted in a more modern form.
Where does the Government's proposals on a constitutional referendum on the rights of children stand? Have the proposals and the proposed wording been finalised? When does the Government propose to bring the necessary legislation for this referendum before Dáil Éireann? Is the Taoiseach concerned that the commencement of a general election campaign in less than three months could hinder a comprehensive debate on what everyone agrees is a very important issue?
This matter was discussed this morning and the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Brian Lenihan, has given the outline of his full proposal and its wording. To give the parties more time for consultation we will not proceed yet. There is plenty of time if we wish to do this. There are important issues to be dealt with if we can come to an agreement. The question is whether political agreement can be reached. The work at official level in the Department will be completed this week. These are not politically contentious issues. There seems to be comprehensive agreement on them, though they generate much interest in certain groups and individuals. We will wait for the Minister of State to complete his discussions with the parties.
Does the Taoiseach have a target date for a referendum?
Realistically a referendum would have to be held by some time in April. We will have the work finalised and it is a question of whether the work with the parties will also be finalised.
Is there any question of holding such a referendum on the same day as a general election? Does holding a referendum in April followed by a general election a few weeks later provide a feasible timescale for these important issues?
The Government will be in a position to bring forward a referendum Bill within a week and there is no reason a vote cannot be held in early or late March. It is a question of whether agreement can be reached among the parties. I would not propose holding a referendum on the same day as a general election. That would not be a good idea.
There is no political disagreement on the requirement for a referendum dealing with the zone of absolute defence. This is very important and the point has been made previously.
On the four other propositions, it seems the advice of the All-Party Committee on the Constitution is not being followed. The advice was that one can call a referendum, in an emergency, within a thirty day period but that there should be real, public consultation about changes to the Constitution. I met the Children's Rights Alliance last week and it broadly supports this.
Last year the Taoiseach made a comment on the requirement for a referendum, as he is entitled to do as Taoiseach. We were led to believe the Minister of State with special responsibility for children would have detailed consultations with the Opposition parties. Deputy O'Keeffe, Fine Gael spokesperson on justice, was contacted by the Minister of State last week while he was on his way to Dublin and they had a discussion the following day. The Minister of State also spoke to the Labour Party spokesman. However, as we have no wording to consider, all Fine Gael could discuss this morning at its Front Bench meeting was the intent and objective of the Government.
When one changes the Constitution, unforeseen circumstances may arise. We had rushed legislation in the past, including the nursing homes Bill, and we have had difficulties with other aspects of legislation that arose, never mind the Constitution. Although the Taoiseach says he wants all-party agreement on the matter, his approach flies in the face of the recommendation of the All-Party Committee on the Constitution, which was chaired by Deputy Brian Lenihan and which contended there should be serious public consultation. The world of academia or other sectors may raise very valid questions that are not foreseen by anybody in the political spectrum, as was the case with the BUPA-VHI issue, in respect of which a lacuna in the law has been identified.
If the Taoiseach is to hold the referendum in early March, as he said to Deputy Joe Higgins, he will note that this is only 35 days, or five weeks, from now. In the context of the recommendation of the All-Party Committee on the Constitution, is the matter deemed by the Government to be an emergency? What are the Taoiseach's views on this?
Does the Taoiseach intend to legislate in respect of the private health insurance market, which includes VHI, BUPA and VIVAS?
That is a question for the line Minister. These questions refer specifically to the Taoiseach's Department.
I am sorry but it is important.
I have listened to the views of Deputy Kenny, Leader of the Opposition, on this issue. Last year the House was coming down over issues with which we had to deal, and it was suggested that we should not go into recess in the summer until they were dealt with. That is the view I heard from all sides. I was strongly criticised because I went to an international forum — I was the only member in Europe to be invited — and it was argued I should not have gone before dealing with the substantive issue in a legislative and constitutional way. Since then, I have met all the relevant groups, that is, in June, July and September, and I designated the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, to deal with the comprehensive issue. A large number of groups was involved in the process, including legal groups, religious groups of all denominations and medical and sociological groups dealing with children and other issues. We came to a view in October, which I aired, and there has since been considerable engagement by a range of groups, including NGOs, educationalists, sociologists and others, all of which have had meetings with the Minister of State over the past three months and longer.
I take the point that Deputy Jim O'Keeffe and others need time and that is why I said what I said. I do not expect them to make up their minds on the basis of one meeting — I am not asking any spokesperson to do that.
If we do not deal with this issue, it will not be the end of the world, but we should try to deal with it. Deputy Kenny is totally right that unforeseen issues can always arise dealing with such issues. One can take it that as soon as one decides to hold a constitutional referendum — I have had this debate for ten years with Deputy Jim O'Keeffe — the all-party committee issues a report, which then enters the system for consideration. We sometimes change the views in the all-party committee's report and deal with the matter on a legislative basis. It then proceeds to be dealt with on some other basis. It is not at all irregular that we do not agree with the view of the all-party committee, although it does a good job in bringing issues to the fore in the way it does.
Groups on all sides say we should deal with this issue. Although there seems to be no controversial issue involved in this, I have never seen a referendum issue unopposed. If there is nothing to oppose in the referendum, something will be invented, and we can be certain of that. I can almost see where that is coming from already.
I am not trying to enforce action on this initiative, but it is an outstanding issue that we need to deal with. It has been pointed out to me by all the bodies in their submissions to the Minister of State with responsibility for children, Deputy Brian Lenihan, that we should deal with this matter. I have a view as to whether it should be dealt with by one or more questions, but I will not press my view on it. The Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, in his consultations with the various parties can work out a consensus in this regard. If it is not dealt with in April we will have to deal with it later. The House is aware of the ramifications, which mean we cannot put it on the long finger because it will resurface in a range of other forms. I think we will have no problem in dealing with it before the Dáil ends, but if that cannot be done, so be it. The House should come to a view on the issue. I will not proceed in the absence of political agreement. That would not be wise, but the Government side is ready to proceed.
In my time in the Dáil we have not had a more accessible or conciliatory Taoiseach. Notwithstanding that, in the ten years, almost, in which Deputy Bertie Ahern has been Taoiseach, any time the Opposition has been invited to come on board, matters have never proved to be what they appeared. The Taoiseach is wrong to say that last summer the House was coming down. Last summer the Government was coming down. Presumably, the House would come down after it. There is no difficulty on this side of the House about the absolute zone of protection. To widen that, there is no problem on this side of the House about protecting or asserting the rights of our children.
Is it not the case that the omnibus referendum now being proposed is quite complex? Notwithstanding the support I suspect will be forthcoming from all sides of the House for the principle that is being sought to achieve, careful scrutiny and wide public debate and consultation is necessary before we embark on an enterprise as serious as amending our Constitution. It is very difficult to envisage how that can be allowed for between now and the end of March, given that we have not yet seen legislation. Presumably the Taoiseach and his Ministers will engage on the habitual flight of the earls around St. Patrick's Day and a week will be lost for that.
As regards consulting the Opposition, notwithstanding the conciliatory streak that runs in that wing of Fianna Fáil; the consultations have been minimalist. I wish to ask the Taoiseach in particular about the organisations he talked about which he met last June and July. Is it not the case that this was but a mote in the Taoiseach's eye last June and July? He needs to discuss with the organisations involved in children's rights and protection the specific amendment the Government now proposes to put forward. Will he say whether those organisations have been involved in the consultations regarding the wording?
I read in The Irish Times today that the Irish Council for Civil Liberties believes the proposals now being considered are seriously defective. Some of the children’s organisations believe they fall far short of what it is they thought they were getting.
Why does the Taoiseach think it is necessary for us to rush this through by the end of March? Given the broad support from all sides of the House for the principle involved, we should take the time to ensure that we do it properly.
I have answered most of those questions, but I do not know what Deputy Rabbitte meant when he said that when I engaged in constitutional issues during the period of my leadership, it was not what it seemed. When a Government of which he was a part tried to pass its only major proposal, namely the divorce referendum, I brought my whole party behind it to make sure it was passed. The Deputy knows that it would not have been passed otherwise. For the Good Friday Agreement, I dealt even-handedly with the Opposition during the negotiations. The only referendum with which we had problems was one in which the Deputy's own party had a difficulty with a judicial issue, so I dropped that aspect from it. At every stage in my time as leader, I played it absolutely even-handedly, so Deputy Rabbitte's comment is unfair.
I was under considerable pressure last year from a range of organisations to deal with the issue that arose from what happened in early June. We have attempted to do that, but it is not the end of the world whether we get it finished by March. If I did not bring it to a stage whereby the whole thing was ready, Deputy Rabbitte and others would say that I did nothing. Given that the lifetime of this Dáil ends in the summer, I want to complete the work and I will get to a stage where there is broad agreement on this issue inside and outside the House, including among the children's bodies. There is one children's body that is trying to create difficulties around this, but all of the others have taken a different view. If it is not possible to get broad political agreement, then we will leave it until later, but if there is agreement, then we can have the referendum. There is no great difficulty about this. Religious, medical and social organisations all have an interest in this issue and would like to see it dealt with.
The Deputy is correct to state that there will always be difficulties. I have often been asked why we do not have a referendum for different issues when there is all-party agreement, but I have always answered that there is no such thing as a simple change to the Constitution. It is certain that somebody will take an opposing view. People will see problems where none exist, but I suppose it is unfair to suggest that they invent problems.
The Minister of State, Deputy Lenihan, has his views but he is open to debate this issue. That is a fair way to proceed. If we cannot deal with the issue in March or early April, then the House will have to deal with it in the life of a new Dáil. I will not say that the parties do not have the time or do not wish to consult for whatever reason. I will not use the majority in the House to get this through. I have not done that in the past. I pulled a referendum late in the day on another occasion just to accommodate the Labour Party. We can come to a view with the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, who is available. The Government and the administrative system will be ready this week to move on. If it is not possible to do that, we can hold it in abeyance and take it forward on the other side of the general election. The House will not be able to avoid having to deal with this issue in 2007. It is needed for many reasons — I am sure the Deputy has been meeting the various groups, just as I have. There are many reasons we should not delay it unduly. I think that is a reasonable approach.
Is it true that Fianna Fáil has already placed a printing contract for the referendum?
No.
That does not arise.
Can I answer the question? That is just nonsense. Fianna Fáil has placed no printing contract for any referendum.
No printing contract of any kind has been placed for it.
None whatsoever.
When the Taoiseach tells the House he is serious about having a referendum passed for the good of all children, in particular, is he considering that there could be a need to make some budgetary provision for it? Additional moneys are needed to address classroom sizes, for example. A significant number of people are waiting to get into schools in many constituencies. Is the Taoiseach conscious of the import of the referendum, in so far as it will put an onus on the Government to deliver certain things? It cannot simply be seen as wishful thinking, in terms of the rights which the referendum will clarify. Has that been part of the discussions to date?
I would like to conclude by asking about something that was raised the last time the House considered this question. I refer to the All-Party Committee on the Constitution, which the Taoiseach mentioned. Is it now clear that the implementation of the recommendations of the Kenny report will not require a referendum? The Taoiseach mentioned in his reply to me the last time we spoke about this matter that the Bill to give effect to those recommendations was being drafted. Can the Taoiseach give the House a report on the progress that is being made?
The legislation on that matter is being drafted in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.
No further progress has been made.
It does not require a referendum. The Department is proceeding on the basis of what we set out. Considerable work was done in the Office of the Attorney General, the office of the Minister of State with responsibility for children and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform in June, July, August and September. Following an enormous amount of thought and action, meetings took place about how to take this forward. A great deal of information was disseminated. That process was concluded at Government level in October and I announced it at the beginning of November. In the three months since then, the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, has been engaged in extensive discussions with an enormous range of organisations. The Minister of State will be glad to outline the details of that consultation to the House if a Deputy asks him a question about it. We are trying to make progress on an issue that is seen as extremely important.
Like every issue, this issue has implications. It may be that what was said in the first place needs to be extended. When we consider in the cold light of day what needs to be done and how it can best be done, the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, will be ready and willing to do that on behalf of the Government. He is already engaging with the political parties in that regard. If the Government can agree on that and move forward, it is ready to do so. If we cannot get agreement on the matter, we will not get involved in a row about it. It will have to be dealt with in due course. We have acted in very good faith throughout this process with all of the groups — a substantial number of organisations have been involved. I refer not only to the children's non-governmental organisations, which have been very active, but also to the other bodies which were calling on us to take action in this area. They have been supporting our moves and engaging with the Minister of State, as have many other people. There are right-wing and left-wing views on this issue, as there are on all issues. We have to understand that. We will proceed if we can get political agreement. If we cannot get such agreement, we will be unable to make progress. I think that is a reasonable position.
What is the answer to my question about whether any budgetary provision is being considered, given the import of the referendum decision——
That does not arise at this stage.
It is fair that people should know.
Yes, but it does not arise now.
There are 116 applicants for nine places in a school I am dealing with at present——
I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.
——which indicates there is not much regard for children's rights.
As regards a referendum, is the Cabinet considering the possibility of putting more than one question to the electorate to deal with the five propositions before us for consideration? What is the current thinking on that following today's Cabinet meeting? Has the Taoiseach considered the point made earlier about having the referendum or referenda on the same day as the general election to enhance the participation of the electorate in the referendum decision process? An examination of turnout for stand-alone referenda will show that there is greater participation in the poll when the referendum is connected with another electoral process. Would the general election not be the optimum opportunity to ensure maximum participation in the decision on these very important matters?
On the Taoiseach's legislative priorities, last week he mentioned his enthusiasm for the establishment of the all-Ireland civic forum. Is it a requirement that legislation will be introduced by the Taoiseach's Department or some other Department to establish the civic forum? If legislation is required, would it not be useful to commence the preparation and publication of that legislation so that it could act as a spur for the establishment of the civic forum? Does the Taoiseach expect that any further legislation will be required in tandem with or following the re-establishment of the Executive, the Assembly and the all-Ireland Ministerial Council, all of which, I hope, will come into play in the not too distant future?
The Deputy asked a number of questions. With regard to the referendum, there are merits in having more than one question to deal with the five issues; there will probably be two questions. Subject to consultation, the Government would see merit in doing that again. We will see what happens in the consultations but we have not ruled it out. As I said to Deputy Higgins, it is not a good idea to hold the referendum on the same day as the election. It would lead to the question Deputy Rabbitte considered it necessary to ask, that is, whether Fianna Fáil sees a political advantage in having a referendum on this issue. I do not want that to happen; that is not the purpose of the referendum and it is not a good idea.
I strongly support the civic forum. It does not require legislative changes. We have spent the past eight or nine years working on the civic forum concept and engaging with people in many different ways. It would be a huge advantage to Northern Ireland in the future and for engaging with civic society and various interest groups in the South if we can get it up and running.
With regard to the final question, I do not believe other legislation is required. The amending legislation on the Foyle is now resolved. If other legislation is necessary, we will deal with it but I do not envisage it being required at this stage. If there is a suggestion otherwise, we will move quickly on it.
The Taoiseach rather conveniently ignored another referendum relating to the rights of the unborn, which was passed but had unforeseen consequences which led to two further referendum proposals. Surely the Taoiseach recognises the need to ensure proper scrutiny, consultation and consensus when it comes to the rights of the born children? He has not explained to the House the reason we cannot have that space and time to ensure we have that result and hold the referendum on the same day as the general election. It does not make sense to say that somehow it would be politically used on the day of a general election but not on any other day. There is a much better chance of party politics being taken out of the referendum campaign if consensus could be reached, if time was given to it and it was held on the same day as the general election. The Taoiseach's argument against holding it on the same day as the general election does not make much sense to me.
I did not conveniently forget any referendum. I was referring to referendums which have already been held and I tried to get consensus on that issue as well. The people will make the final decision. If the Government and the Oireachtas agree on something and put it to the people, we have to accept their decision as the final arbiters. We should not be upset one way or the other as to their decision. We should put our case to the people and fight it and see whether they are against it. If the Deputy is of the strong opinion that we should spend more time and achieve agreement by June at the time of the general election, I am open to that and I will not stand in the way. If holding the referendum in June is a compromise instead of March or the autumn, I will ask my colleagues to accept the Deputy's suggestion to hold it on the same day as the general election.
If nothing else we have teased out the date of the general election and I suppose we should be grateful for that.
Was this item on the agenda of the Cabinet meeting today and was the format of what will be put to the people agreed by the Cabinet today?
As I stated half an hour ago, it was discussed at the Cabinet meeting today. The format was put to the Cabinet and the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, is ready to finalise his discussions with the parties. There is not much point in me asking the Minister, Deputy Brian Lenihan to have discussions with the parties and then put forward proposals before that happens. If there is no progress in those discussions then the Government will issue its proposals. The Cabinet discussed and agreed the manner in which the Government would wish to proceed if agreement between the parties was achieved.
Is it the position that the Cabinet considered this today and agreed the format of the referendum and having agreed it there will be further consultations with the Opposition? Does this mean that what the Cabinet agreed today may have to be reviewed in light of any view the Opposition or organisations centrally concerned might have?
As I stated early on, the Government has a preference but we would like to get political agreement. The Government format is based on our current thinking, subject to the deliberations with the other parties. I emphasise it is open to amendment, based on those considerations. If it is clear that other parties are unwilling to agree or want a longer period and will not agree to a referendum this side of the election or on the same day as the election — which seems to be the preference of the Labour Party — then the Government will put forward its own proposals. I will not be proceeding to create a division on this issue in the next few months. Having spent a long time on significant consultation in the past nine months I intend to bring it to finality for the sake of those who have acted in good faith with the Government. It is really a question of what the parties wish to do. If agreement can be reached then so be it.
I do not really care if we have the referendum in April, May or at the same time as the election but I have to say to Deputy McManus that I do not think it would be good to have it on the same day as the general election. We would do so if everybody said we should but we would get into another sideshow with those opposed to the amendment and either it would not be properly debated or it would get confused with the general election. Neither outcome would be particularly good. If the Deputy were to ask what would be my choice, I would rather not have the referendum on the same day as the general election but if everybody else said it was a good idea, I would not stand in the way.
Following on what Deputy Rabbitte said, in the short reflection that we had on the matter this morning we had to consider what was the intent of the Minister of State and the Government. Did the Cabinet decide and agree on a form of wording this morning? If so, will the Taoiseach inform the House of it?
As the Taoiseach rightly pointed out, questions are always asked about these matters. In the event that the Opposition parties are able to reflect on whatever form of wording is decided by the Cabinet and general agreement is reached on the matter, does the Cabinet intend that the legislation dealing with the age of consent would return to the House at a subsequent stage? Is that the intention from a legislative perspective in the event that the referendum proceeds, taking into account the other constraints outlined?
I have no ulterior agenda other than to try to be helpful on the matter. If the Opposition parties prefer that the Government brings forward its full proposals in public, we could do so. I would prefer if the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, had private consultations with the parties and we awaited their outcome. Otherwise we might as well make the entire proposals public and say this is the Government's view and that we will listen to comments. I do not think we would gain time or secure proper agreement and consultation if we did that. It would not work. People should engage with the Minister of State and see if we can come to an agreement. If we cannot, I will publish our proposals.
Leaving aside that issue and other legislative priorities for a moment, on the Order of Business last week I tried to ask the Tánaiste about the 35 Bills the Government states it will publish between now and the end of——
The question refers specifically to the Taoiseach's Department. It is not an omnibus question on legislation. Opportunities to ask questions on legislation arise on the Order of Business.
A general question would be in order if——
No, the question refers specifically to the Taoiseach's Department.
Does it, Sir?
Yes. The relevant Standing Order states questions refer to the Department of the member of Government in possession.
The question refers to the Taoiseach's legislative priorities as Head of Government. The Ceann Comhairle always takes the narrowest possible interpretation.
The Chair has allowed 45 minutes on one set of questions, whereas he should try to ensure the House discusses two questions.
With all due respect, Sir, it was a very important question and nobody on this side complained about the duration of the discussion. The least the House can do if we are to amend the Constitution is to spend adequate time——
The Deputy has had a good innings.
It is not a question of a good innings. I resent that language.
The Deputy is entitled to resent it if he likes. The question refers specifically to the Taoiseach's Department.
Deputies are trying to tease out an important issue. The Ceann Comhairle appears to believe he is conferring some latitude on us because we want to query an important question on the Constitution.
The House has had a good debate on the matter for 45 minutes.
Time and again the Ceann Comhairle's interpretation is as narrow as he can possibly make it.
If the Deputy does not like the Standing Order, he knows how to change it.