Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Feb 2007

Vol. 631 No. 1

Ceisteanna — Questions (Resumed).

Mr. Kenny

We welcome the delegation from the Slovak Republic.

Irrespective of what happens elsewhere, how soon does the Taoiseach think there could be a referendum on the constitution in this country? Last December, EU Foreign Ministers agreed to freeze accession negotiations with Turkey in eight of the 35 legislative areas. These areas included free movement of goods, rights of establishment and freedom to provide financial services and so on. Did the Taoiseach discuss with his counterparts when these negotiations might restart? What are the procedures in place to monitor Turkey's compliance with EU demands? Are concerns being expressed about Turkish relations with the Kurdish people? Concerns have been expressed about the Kurdish people, Sunnis and Shias further east, in Iraq and Iran.

A case was raised in the national media a few days ago of a young Zambian girl who was brought into this country under a false passport and was repeatedly raped by a Zambian national, who has since been jailed. At the last European Council meeting, the question of migration was discussed. This was also raised at the EPP meetings that I attended on illegal immigration and migration to Europe. I understand Ireland is one of the last countries in which human trafficking is not a crime. It would appear from anecdotal evidence that there has been a significant amount of human trafficking in Ireland, which is something the Government should seriously examine. If human trafficking is not a specific crime in Ireland, then we should make it such. It is an appalling abuse of human rights and human dignity. Was this issue raised in discussions with the Taoiseach? Does he have a concern about it? Has the Government any intention of introducing a Bill to make the trafficking of human beings a very serious offence? It would send out a clear signal that such human degradation would not be tolerated any more.

The Taoiseach

We do not have legislation on human trafficking, but the heads of a Bill have already been approved and we will bring it before the House shortly.

The situation in Turkey was discussed and we will debate it during the statements on the European Council. There will be close monitoring of what was agreed in the Foreign Affairs Council in December. The Foreign Affairs Ministers set down in the GAERC precisely how they want to see this matter brought forward. Turkey will be monitored for some considerable time to see if it complies with the conditions for continuing negotiations.

The position on the constitution has developed a strong momentum. I thought last year it would be derailed, but Angela Merkel has made it a key issue, as Deputy Kenny will be aware from attending meetings with his group. A meeting took place in Madrid a few weeks ago which was attended by representatives of 18 or 19 countries. The pendulum has swung back and people are not prepared to leave this go. The stated position of 19 or 20 countries is that the constitution as it stands should be the constitution that is passed. Realistically, that is probably impossible for the Netherlands and France and there will have to be some accommodation of their positions and of other considerations. I am glad to see the Germans have taken the same view as ourselves and have opened negotiation sessions. I think the Berlin declaration will be about the constitution.

There are some important issues, especially the consideration of our friends in the UK. They would like to see the charter of fundamental rights taken out of the constitution. Whatever else happens, I do not want to see that. I worked long and hard to make sure it was put into the constitution. Taking it out would create many difficulties as it would be very difficult to convince people to accept a constitution that has not got the charter in it. Therefore, the negotiations should stay as close as possible to the original negotiations. We must obviously facilitate some of the difficulties and we must be reasonable. We can slim down the document by taking out some sections without losing the substantive compromises and balances which were built in not only during the Irish Presidency — that is not the issue — but also in the convention in the years preceding the Italian and Irish Presidencies.

The date on which this can realistically come about is becoming clearer. I think it can be done by 2008. We could get into a position whereby changes could be made to allow for parliamentary ratification practically everywhere other than Ireland, which would have a constitutional referendum. That is not a position I would like Ireland to be in, but I fear that such movements could happen. That will be an ongoing difficulty for this country, which we should address some day, but it cannot be addressed now. The relevant date is 2008, after the French Presidency. There will be a great deal of momentum if Germany's tactic works and its negotiating position, which is a good one, is successful. If it transpires that 18 or 19 countries have ratified the proposed constitution, four, five or six of the remaining countries will have to ratify it in their Parliaments within a tight period of time. That will create its own problems, but that is the way I think things will pan out.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Was the Lisbon strategy discussed at the recent meeting of the EU Council? Is the Taoiseach concerned that the European Commission's annual report on the strategy tries to justify decreases in social welfare spending and insists on further so-called flexibility in the labour market, which would unquestionably be to the detriment of pay and conditions of workers throughout the EU? Was the energy crisis in Europe and the rest of the world discussed at the European Council meeting? Has the Taoiseach at any time raised at EU level Ireland's concerns about the drift-back — in the absence of a better description — towards a reliance on nuclear power as a source of energy? Has Ireland promoted renewable energy as a counter to that? There is evidence that Britain is returning to the bad old days when it relied on the nuclear option.

During his visit to Saudi Arabia, did the Taoiseach raise in a serious way the appalling human rights record of the regime in that country? Is he aware that on Monday of this week Amnesty International issued an urgent action note in relation to Saudi Arabia? The note expressed particular concern about the fate of ten detainees, including university professors, doctors and lawyers, who had been involved in peaceful protests aimed at securing the human rights and dignity of citizens in Saudi Arabia. Did the Taoiseach reflect Irish concerns about the human rights record of Saudi Arabia? Will he act on Amnesty International's latest urgent alert, which relates to specific people who clearly face the prospect of torture and even worse?

The Taoiseach

The Lisbon Agenda always feeds into the spring meeting of the European Council. Almost the entire spring Council meeting will relate to the Lisbon strategy. Every year we draw up a report for the spring Council meeting on what we did in the preceding year across the range of areas that are set out in the strategy. We will produce a report again this year. After the reports have been discussed on a national basis, the agenda for the following year is set out. The process runs from Easter to Easter, rather than within the calendar year. That will happen again this year.

I have addressed the House previously on the European Union's approach to the energy issue. The entire autumn meeting of the European Council, which was attended by the Russian President, Mr. Putin, involved a discussion on energy. Germany has made energy the key issue of its Presidency, with the proposed European constitution. I reported to the House previously on the matter and answered questions on it. The entire autumn meeting of the Council was devoted to the matter. As energy is a national competency, each country is responsible for its own energy policies. The European Union has no problem with Ireland's energy mix. There is now greater co-operation on issues like the future supply and pricing of energy at EU level. Ireland has its own policies and competency on these issues.

Deputy Ó Caoláin asked me whether I addressed the issue of human rights in a serious manner while I was in Saudi Arabia. We always raise such issues during our overseas missions because people expect it of us, as representatives of this country. We raised them on this occasion. We do not raise such issues in a trenchant fashion by attacking the countries in question, but we outline our concerns strongly. On this occasion, I did that during my various meetings. Perhaps I did so more publicly than I have done on other occasions. During our dialogue with third countries, we always avail of the appropriate opportunities to raise our human rights concerns.

We raise human rights issues not only in political meetings, but also in detail as part of the official contacts during each visit, and we did that on this occasion. Human rights issues are also highlighted in the ongoing dialogue between the European Union and Saudi Arabia. When I raise these matters, I usually do so in the context of the EU, which most countries are used to dealing with. It is clear that Ireland ties itself into the European position.

In my televised keynote address to the King Faisal Foundation in Riyadh, which was attended by many key academics in that city, I stated:

The principle of mutual respect must underpin all aspects of relations between our two regions, Europe and the Middle East, which are inextricably linked by geography, by history and by millennia of cultural and religious interchange. Ireland is a modern and pluralist State. We believe that fundamental human rights are inalienable. At the same time, we accept that it is most effectively through dialogue and co-operation that all states can over time meet the standards to which they have committed themselves as members of the United Nations.

Human rights issues were raised during the question and answer session that followed my speech, which was widely publicised in Riyadh. Deputy Ó Caoláin will appreciate that when one deals with academics in countries like Saudi Arabia, they are quick to speak about the standards of the west — that happened on this occasion — and one ends up defending the human rights record of other EU member states, which is not always the most comfortable position to be in.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I do not think it is something the Taoiseach should defend.

The Taoiseach

That is the trouble with these issues, as the Deputy can understand. One has to do one's best in such circumstances. When I raised our concerns about human rights, it was clear what I was doing. That is why I got it back on the other side as well.

Mr. Sargent

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Taoiseach as ucht an fhreagra a thug sé don Teach. I was interested to hear about the Taoiseach's activities in Saudi Arabia, not least because while he was there, the Minister for Foreign Affairs was moonlighting in Balbriggan on his behalf. We were all very interested to know why the Taoiseach was in Saudi Arabia while the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, was opening Balbriggan Town Hall. While the Taoiseach explained that quite well, I assure him that he missed a great day in Balbriggan.

The Taoiseach recently spoke about the manner in which the World Economic Forum, which recently met in Davos, marvelled at this country's dynamism. I understand that the forum also marvelled at the lack of snow in Switzerland, as an example of how climate change is catching up seriously on its "business as usual" plans.

The Taoiseach mentioned energy in his reply. Will he elaborate on what he heard discussed and what contribution he made on the subject of climate change, given that it is a matter on which global international co-operation is required? Was attention drawn to the bad record of this country or was that masked by the marvelling at the dynamism he mentioned? Will the Taoiseach comment on the fact that Ireland is not performing well on its international commitments under the Kyoto Protocol, with a small cut of 5% rather than the 80% cut that is needed according to the IPCC report?

I spoke at the Forum on Europe last week. I discussed the situation with the constitution and how it might be necessary to reassess it to get a more optimum document that might enjoy greater support and consensus. There might be a role for the convention to sit again for a limited period in an effort to reflect the democratic wishes of the people in the Netherlands and France and the concerns of the other member states. I agree that the Charter of Fundamental Rights is important, and that is one of many aspects to be discussed.

The Taoiseach

I do not have a difficulty with what is decided on the constitution, although I doubt that bringing back the convention would be a great idea. The German Presidency would prefer to keep the process tight and it is correct in that. If the process is opened up, many matters that were agreed in the convention a number of years ago will come back into play. There were delicate balances on a range of issues in the convention and in the discussions afterwards. If agreement cannot be secured it might be necessary to use that forum, but I do not believe it will be. The convention signed off on a position so I doubt that it will happen. I think the issue will be dealt with within the member states.

A total of 19 countries have signed up to staying with the constitution as it is. Six countries have some reservations, including, obviously, France and the Netherlands. The position in France is easier because it is clearer. I am not clear what the position is in the Netherlands; they do not appear to have worked it out. Poland has re-opened the issue of the weighted votes, something on which it was slow to agree in the first place. It was the last country to agree to them.

The problem revolves around a small number of issues. The British Government would like to remove the Charter of Fundamental Rights from the constitution, but that would be a big mistake and it would create many problems. However, its position is that it should be moved into an annexe or removed altogether. The British would get support for their position because we had a great deal of trouble having it included in the first place.

The Deputy is familiar with what happens in Davos. There are open plenary sessions with the president of the G8 and the President of the EU, Angela Merkel, and there are panel discussions on the European agenda. I participated in those. There is an enormous number of sessions on various issues. The one in which I participated was on education, training and skills. This country has high credibility for its position in that area. Between 40 and 50 countries engaged in that session.

I was not involved in the session on climate change but I read the reports of what happened in that session and the reports of what business people said. If I had been there, I would have pointed out that Ireland has successfully decoupled its greenhouse gas emissions from economic growth——

Mr. Sargent

The EPA does not agree.

The Taoiseach

Between 1990 and the past few years emissions in this country have grown by 23% but the economy grew by 150%. That trend is continuing and is reflected in the emissions intensity of the Irish economy. Emissions per unit of GDP were 48% of the 1990 level. The Deputy would like it to be lower and so would I but it is still a huge achievement. The equivalent figure for the European Union is 78%. We will meet our Kyoto Protocol target to keep emissions at 13% above 1990 levels by a combination of measures.

I was interested to hear the reports from other countries. Ireland and the UK, and business people involved in both countries, pointed out in some of the sessions what this country is doing. Ireland accounts for 2% of the world's emissions. A range of measures are being undertaken here and the Deputy supports that. We should continue doing everything we can but we also must try to keep pressure on other countries to play their part. The best way to do that is to do things ourselves, lead by example and try to reflect what is happening in other areas. If I had been there, I would have made those points.