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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 30 Sep 2008

Vol. 662 No. 1

Business of Dáil: Motion.

I move:

That the sitting be suspended until 10 p.m.

In view of a matter which has arisen——

——it is necessary to move the suspension of the sitting until 10 p.m.

I should explain that on an issue such as this, only one spokesperson from each party may contribute. I am aware that other Members were offering earlier. If they thought I was being discourteous, I assure them I was not.

This has descended into high farce.

It is a farce.

It is absolutely chaotic. I have been a Member of this House for over 30 years. I have never before seen such disastrous preparation for a Bill as important asthis.

In the past five minutes, my office has been contacted by the office of the Government Whip. My officials have been informed that the Bill has not been proofed and therefore is not finalised. They have been told it will be in the possession of all Members by 9.45 p.m. It has been suggested that discussion on the Bill should not start until the document is in the hands of Opposition Members. I put it to the Taoiseach that this is high farce. It is absolutely chaotic. The Government is ill-prepared to deal with this sensitive Bill, which is of great importance to the economy and the protection of Irish banking institutions. My party's Whip has been informed that this Bill will not be sent to the Seanad tonight. It will not become law until tomorrow, therefore, when the other House has finished its consideration of it. Is the Taoiseach absolutely sure that the Bill has been finally proofed and that it has been accepted and agreed? Is the detail the Taoiseach mentioned earlier, in response to my question, contained in the new proofed Bill? The Taoiseach rightly spoke earlier of the need to give demonstrable evidence of the new regulatory regime and to provide for strengthened oversight. Are such matters contained in the further proofed Bill, which is to be made available to us at 9.45 p.m.? Is it absolutely necessary for the Bill to be taken through this House tonight?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

If it is necessary to do so, I will not object to it. I would like the Taoiseach to explain how imperative is the passage of the Bill. We were told earlier that it had to go through tonight. We have now been informed that it will not be considered by the Seanad today. The people on the streets are absolutely confused by what is going on here, or what is not going on.

Incompetence.

In the context of what I said earlier today about not disrupting the passage of this important legislation, in the interests of protecting the Irish economy and an Irish banking institution, I would like the Taoiseach to answer three questions. Will the newly proofed Bill contain the detail to which the Taoiseach referred in his response earlier today? Will it contain details of the regulatory regime and strengthened oversight arrangements? Given that we have been informed that it is not proposed to take the Bill through the Seanad tonight, is it absolutely imperative for it to be passed by the Dáil tonight? If so, why?

We are dealing with probably the most serious matter that will arise during the lifetime of this Dáil, an issue relating to the security of the country's financial institutions, the banking system and the implications this has for people's jobs and businesses. Quite rightly, people are looking to what is happening here and the outcome of our discussion.

Last night, the Government made a decision, which we discussed earlier in the day, to offer a State guarantee to six banks. It told us legislation would be required to underpin this. The Labour Party and Fine Gael agreed to co-operate with the Government in having this legislation debated in the House and that we would sit for whatever length of time was necessary to deal with it. The one condition we have and which I repeat is that we want to deal with the legislation thoroughly. We do not want to agree legislation blindfolded. We will not agree to a pig in a poke. We want to deal with it and go through it section by section to ensure the public interest and the interests of taxpayers are fully protected.

Throughout this day we have found ourselves in a situation where the Government has not been able to present the legislation. We were told we would have this Bill at 4 p.m. We did not have it. We were told we would have it at 5.45 p.m. It did not appear. We were told we would have it at 6.30 p.m. and we adjourned in anticipation of that. We eventually got what is called a "draft" Bill and we are told this is not the final version. It is not the published Bill and it is not at a point where the Dáil can commence debate on it.

It is the responsibility of the Government, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance to present to the Dáil the version of the Bill on which we can debate the issues. The Labour Party is prepared to sit through the night if necessary to deal with this, but should we not be doing this sensibly? If it is the case that the Government does not have the legislation ready, then why are we going through this high drama of adjournment after adjournment? If the Government needs to take the time overnight to refine and finalise the Bill, so be it. We will return in the morning and debate it then.

I understand the Whips have already agreed a formula whereby Committee Stage will not be guillotined. There is no timeframe on this. There is co-operation in the House to deal with the processing of the Bill. There may not be agreement on all the content of it and some of what I have seen does not entirely tally with what the Taoiseach told us earlier today, but this is for the debate itself.

As far as dealing with the legislation is concerned, the Labour Party would be much happier if we dealt with this sensibly. If the Bill is not ready for presentation in the Dáil then let us stop the codology of all of these repeated adjournments of the House. Let us come back in the morning if needs be, have the Bill ready and we will go at it afresh.

At 8.55 p.m., a little over ten minutes ago, the Bills Office in this institution had not received a copy of the draft Bill which has been circulated here during the past hour. Our office, in contact with the Bills Office with regard to receipt of amendments to the legislation, was told it had no idea how to proceed. The Bills Office did not have a copy of the Bill at 8.55 p.m. This is a factual situation and if anything exemplifies the absolute chaos that is taking place throughout this evening and tonight in this House this spells it out very clearly.

We must have careful and responsible consideration of all that is involved in this legislation. I join with Deputy Gilmore in presenting the case that we should adjourn this debate until tomorrow morning, when people will be intent on going through it with a clear mind and a fresh head, rather than trying to fast-track legislation of such importance into the early hours of the morning. It is a bad way to do business at any time but in the case of something of such great importance and all that it entails, we must act responsibly, be clear headed and have a clear understanding of all the potential consequences of the passage of this legislation. I appeal to the Taoiseach to consider adjourning for this evening. We have had deferral after deferral with no sight of any amendments to be proposed by any of the parties. All Members and all parties have a responsibility to consider everything that presents with the greatest of care. I recommend that we adjourn, clear the decks and reconvene tomorrow in order to address this comprehensively with all the care, time and attention it not only deserves but that the Irish people would demand.

I apologise for this situation. As I understand it, Fine Gael seeks the final version of the Bill before proceeding with the Second Stage debate.

We cannot be expected to proceed on the basis of a draft. That is ridiculous.

We cannot discuss a proposal without knowing what it contains.

The Taoiseach should be allowed to continue without interruption.

I am just making the point——

It is a ridiculous point.

——that Deputy Kenny was making. If the Deputies do not want me to make a point, I will leave it at that. I have listened intently to what Members have said.

The situation is that we have been informed that the final version of the Bill will be available at 9.45 p.m. and that the debate can begin at 10 p.m. The idea behind bringing the legislation forward today is to give legislative expression to the statement of principle that was made this morning. It is important that this should be in the public domain and that the Minister for Finance should set out in detail the legislative expression of that statement of principle. We have seen the positive reaction of the markets today. Bringing forward this Bill at 10 p.m. — and I apologise for the delay — is in the interests of the country and this House.

It will not be passed.

We would like to proceed. I accept that it has required the forbearance of the Opposition. Members opposite will understand that decisions were made early this morning and the statement of principle made at 7 a.m, after which a Cabinet meeting took place at which the heads of the Bill were approved. Officials have been working to get this to the House this evening. However, it is a complex area and one must get it right in terms of the financial issues involved. It was hoped and anticipated that the Bill would be brought to the House sooner than this. The final draft of the Bill has been available since 7.30 p.m. This is, in substance, the Bill for discussion on Second Stage, were it to take place now or at 10 p.m. If the Opposition wishes to wait for the final green version of the Bill, that will be available at 9.45 p.m. It will effectively be the same Bill as we have before us. We will also have Committee and Report Stages.

I apologise for the situation that has arisen. It is not the fault of anyone in this House but arises as a result of the strenuous work that has been done to ensure we give legislative expression to the statement of principle that was made this morning. That is the situation and I ask for the forbearance of the House in this matter. It is a unique situation in which we find ourselves and I ask that our proposal be accepted. I understand some of the points that have been made. However, the delay is not the fault of anybody here but is a result of the logistics of getting the Bill to the House as quickly as possible.

Is the motion agreed to?

Can I ask——

There can only be one intervention, that is the difficulty.

It is a point of order.

I will accept a point of clarification. This is an exceptional measure.

These are exceptional times. I will raise a point of order if that is how the Ceann Comhairle wishes me to proceed. There is a constitutional procedure for dealing with legislation. Under Standing Orders, legislation is required to be published. That is the First Stage of a Bill and we cannot proceed beyond that. That is the way it is. If the Government cannot meet the deadline, that is okay. The Taoiseach has expressed his regret and apologised to the House. I will not make a big deal of that. I do understand that the people who have been dealing with this matter were up all last night and are working under much pressure. I wish to make a second point, however, which is probably more important. All of us understand that how this plays outside the House is a lot more important than how it plays in here. If we start debating a Bill at 10 p.m. and spend two hours on Second Stage, we will then proceed to Committee Stage. There will be a lot of debate about some of the content of what I have seen in the draft. We could find ourselves at 7 or 8 o'clock in the morning with the news headlines both here and in other capitals relaying the news that the Irish Parliament has not yet agreed the financial rescue Bill for the banks. We must reflect on how that will play outside the House. I suggest to the Taoiseach that it would perhaps be wiser for us to agree a procedure whereby we may deal with Second Stage tonight and have Committee Stage tomorrow, so that there is a sense that we are on top of it and we do not have another Capitol Hill situation.

May I be of assistance, a Cheann Comhairle? I have listened to what all the Deputies have said and it is important that we are in a position to conduct our business as best we can, given the exigencies of the situation and the importance of the legislation we are passing. Given the views expressed and out of respect for the co-operation of the House in regard to these matters, we should be in a position to conclude the Second Stage debate tonight. In that way the legislation will have been agreed in principle with or without a division in the House, which is a matter for parties to determine on the conclusion of Second Stage. It is important, however, to have agreement on Second Stage of the legislation tonight. If we could finish that at midnight and conclude Committee and Report Stages in the morning, it would be sufficiently positive and determinate of the signal we wish to send to the markets, which is consistent with the statement of principle we had this morning. Thankfully for all of us that has been well received by the markets. In an effort to ensure that we can conduct our business without any fault, and to get this through the House as quickly as possible, I would ask Members to take Second Stage from 10 p.m. We can have a decision on Second Stage at midnight and conclude our deliberations on Committee and Report Stages from 10.30 a.m. tomorrow. If that is agreeable to everybody, I ask the House to adjourn until 10 p.m. and proceed on that basis.

The markets responded today with confidence to the announcement of the guarantee given by the Government, not in response to the fact that there was to be a Bill because that was not known until later. I thank Deputy Gilmore for his suggestion. What the Taoiseach has said is an acceptable compromise. The Taoiseach probably does not now need to clarify the advice given to the Government by the Attorney General, in that it was his view that it was necessary that the legislation should go through All Stages tonight. I accept the Taoiseach's compromise. I know the Second Stage debate schedule comprises three 15 minute contributions, three of ten minutes and four of five minutes. The House will adjourn after that and will commence Committee Stage in the morning at 10.30 a.m. or whatever time is deemed appropriate. That is sensible and will allow Members to reflect on comments that are made on Second Stage, as well as seeking advice on the details of the Bill and its various sections. It will also give some time for a considered approach to Opposition amendments that may be deemed necessary. I accept the Taoiseach's compromise, which provides a sensible and prudent conclusion to what has been a rather chaotic period of preparation for the launch of this particular Bill.

Is the motion agreed to?

Without wishing to engage in point scoring, it is not a question of chaotic preparation, it is a question of people working very hard to achieve the objective we set out for ourselves.

I understand that.

There was no chaotic preparation. There are times when we can try to score points but this is not such an occasion. I am simply saying, in deference to everybody in the House, that we need a sensible arrangement so that a sufficiently positive signal can be sent to the markets by the completion of Second Stage of the Bill this evening. Let us proceed on that basis without trying to make stupid scores.

I record my thanks to the Taoiseach for accepting that all sections of this Bill should not be dealt with tonight. That is the wise course to take at this stage. What we learn from tonight's Second Stage debate will help to inform tomorrow's further deliberations. Therefore, I accept the Taoiseach's proposal.

Is the motion agreed? Agreed.

Question put and agreed to.

Tá an Dáil ar fionraí go dtí a deich a chlog.

Sitting suspended at 9.20 p.m. and resumed at 10 p.m.
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