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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 27 Nov 2008

Vol. 669 No. 1

Nursing Homes Support Scheme Bill 2008: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill and prior to discussing the issues of concern I will put it into context. In December 2006, the Minister for Health and Children announced the fair deal which is the new funding arrangement for long-term nursing home care. People are expected to contribute to the cost of their care based on an assessment of their income and assets. A person is expected to make a contribution of up to 80% of assessable income and up to 5% of the value of any assets in excess of the asset disregard per annum. The asset disregard stands at €36,000 for an individual and €72,000 for a couple.

If the assets include land and property, the 5% contribution based on such assets can be deferred. This means it does not have to be paid during the person's lifetime and may be collected once their estate is settled. In the case of the principal residence only, the deferred contribution will be capped at 15% of the value of the principal residence for a maximum of three years. The charge on other assets is not capped but will apply for the duration of care. However, this charge will not exceed the cost of care. It would not make any sense if it did.

Somebody with a small amount of land valued at €100,000 could have it all confiscated if he or she was in a nursing home for five, six or seven years. This is my interpretation of it and I believe it is the only way it can be interpreted. Many families will be upset if they are forced into this situation.

For the first time, this scheme will offer a uniform system of financial support for individuals in public and private nursing homes. Under this plan, the practise of assessing the income of children will cease. I understood this has not been taken into consideration for a considerable number of years because it was found to be unfair by the High Court.

The Government was woken up with regard to issues for elderly people when it took away the medical card from all those aged over 70. They have presented themselves as a cohort of people who are extremely vocal, many of whom are educated and with great life experience and they will ensure their rights and services will be protected. I sincerely welcome this.

Many of the people who retire at age 65 or 66 have PhDs, masters and other degrees. Many of them served in senior management positions and supervised in industry and commerce or were senior civil servants. Many of them worked hard to rear their children. They have a vast amount of knowledge and experience of life. We must question how this resource is dispensed with when they reach the age of 65. There must be a way to ensure we use the talents and experience of our retired people as much as possible. They have a vast amount to contribute but their life experience, including family life and education, is interrupted and abandoned when they retire. It makes no sense. To put this in context, the number of people greater than 65 years of age has increased by 7.3% since 2002, is expected to increase by more than 800,000 by 2025 and to have tripled by 2050. Life expectancy in Ireland is increasing and now exceeds the European average.

Private and voluntary nursing homes provide in excess of 65% of long-term care beds. By the end of 2007 there were 18,883 private and voluntary nursing home beds in Ireland, an increase of 26% from the 2003 figure. There is one private and voluntary nursing home bed for every 24.8 persons aged 65 years and over. The average weekly cost of a bed nationally throughout all areas and all room types, including single, double and multiple bedrooms, was on average found to be €778. The highest average weekly rate was noted in the north-east coast and the south west. Average rates were found to be €966 in both the north east and the east coast. The lowest rate was in north west where the average weekly rate was €607.

I raise our concerns with the Bill. It is necessary to make changes in this area for the reasons already outlined. The Nursing Homes Support Scheme Bill 2008 stipulates that the fair deal scheme, to which other Deputies have referred, is resource capped. We must understand the implications of resource capping the scheme. This will inevitably lead to waiting lists for support. It is also possible that family members will be called upon to fund the difference.

Income tax relief on nursing home care has been reduced to the standard rate. How does the Minister propose to deal with the inevitable waiting lists? Does the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy John Moloney, anticipate family members will continue to pay up while we wait for funds to be freed up? Perhaps the free up of a bed will come about as a result of the death of a resident in a nursing home. Under the existing system, people receive some contribution to the cost of their care, even if this must be supplemented by the person's family. Under the new proposal in this Bill, older people could be left with nothing and with no certainty about when funding might be available.

The Minister announced that responsibility for contracting beds in nursing homes and agreeing fees will be given to the National Treatment Purchase Fund. The stated purpose of this is to keep costs down. Nursing homes will be required to negotiate with the National Treatment Purchase Fund if they wish to be approved as a provider under the scheme. There is an inherent contradiction between the challenge faced by the National Treatment Purchase Fund of keeping the cost of care down and the role of the Health Service Executive in ensuring high standards are met. Quality must be determined by the prices set by the National Treatment Purchase Fund. If the National Treatment Purchase Fund sets prices, it will probably lead to a race to the bottom as nursing homes cut costs to fill beds. This is a real possibility in parts of the country where there is an over-supply of nursing homes. It is vital that standards of nursing home care are put in place as a priority. This was highlighted again and again by my colleague, Deputy Fergus O'Dowd, following his investigation of standards in nursing homes. There are very good nursing homes and, with my family, I have experience of dealing with very good nursing homes.

Questioning the standard of nursing homes is not a reflection on those who provide top-class care and sometimes these generalisations are applied to those who provide excellent care, which should not be the case. Questioning the standards in nursing homes does not imply there are issues in general, but there may be specific cases and it is very important to address these.

Good nursing home care cannot be provided on the cheap, but it must not become prohibitively expensive. In each January of recent years I have encountered people who say the cost of nursing home care for a parent, brother, aunt, wife or husband is being increased by too much and this creates a problem. We must know what the cost will be of implementing the recommendations contained in the draft standards of residential care settings for older people. This was submitted to the Minister by the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA.

It is more than three years since the Leas Cross nursing home scandal was exposed and we still do not have standards for nursing home care. It is important these standards are finalised and enforced as a matter of priority. Will these standards apply compulsorily to private and public nursing homes and, if so, will there be a timeframe for their implementation? When will the regulatory impact assessment be completed? How will the Minister ensure public nursing homes, which are often older than private nursing homes, are able to cope with the cost of meeting new standards? Has HIQA been given adequate funding for 2009 to register and inspect nursing homes? Will the Minister of State outline the funding provided to inspect nursing homes next year? When will the inspection begin? What is the position regarding the recruitment of staff to carry out inspections? Should the scheme go ahead in the absence of standards for nursing home care? Should the Bill be extended to include private care provided in the community?

Privately provided care in the community enables people to live in their own homes for as long as possible. Care services may include assistance with trips to the doctor, reminders to take medication at the correct time, meal preparation, house-keeping, errands, shopping and companionship. Most important, these services allow people to maintain independence while they age in the home in which they have lived all their lives.

I am interested in the home care package scheme, which is a very effective intervention to assist elderly people who would otherwise be in a very expensive nursing home. I have seen some of my family leaving a public nursing home following a stay of six, eight or ten months, returning home under the home care package and some three or four years later these people are still at home. Without the package, such people would still be in a public nursing home. Will the Minister of State and the Department of Health and Children seriously consider how this cost effective, socially beneficial scheme can be extended? The scheme allows people to remain in their homes for the latter days of their lives and continue to interact with their neighbours and family. The alternative is to stay in a private or public nursing home with additional costs for the State.

There are occasions when a person's medical needs and level of dependency would not normally warrant admission to a nursing home. Nevertheless such a person may opt for nursing home care, because the person may not feel safe in the home and seek increased security or may even seek companionship. This is especially the case in a rural area, such as my constituency, where people feel more and more isolated for many reasons, such as changes in society, changes necessarily introduced which make it difficult to travel to the bar and others on which I could expand. When I was a young person, there was no such thing as a letterbox in the door in rural areas. The postman knocked at the door and interacted with people. This implied a relationship among remote and rural people who had contact in a general way. That is all gone now, as the Minister of State knows. The post-box at the top of the road and all the services that were there, as well as the neighbourliness and social connections, are gone. Society has changed dramatically in rural areas. Sometimes we do not know our neighbours, although everybody knew everybody else in the past. The Minister of State, who comes from a rural area, understands what I am talking about. People will go into nursing homes for companionship. If something happens in an area, such as an old person being broken into, beaten up and robbed, elderly people around the area will want to leave for safety's sake, whether they are 80 or 85 years of age. They will not feel happy or safe. They want to be around people and thus they will decide to go into a nursing home.

Under the new scheme, the care needs assessment criteria for admission to a nursing home will become much stricter, which means that only highly dependent older persons will be admitted to nursing homes. Although there is some scope for taking social factors into account, it is not clear, considering the possibility of resource capping, whether such people will avail of the scheme. Perhaps the Minister of State will inform us of the Government's approach to this. It is important that this assessment is flexible and responsive to people's medical and social needs, and that the scheme is adequately funded to cater for those who wish to avail of it. I would sincerely like the Minister to put this on the record. We may have to refer to this in future when we are dealing with very serious social cases in our own areas, and we would like to have a record of the attitude of the Minister in the House when the issue was debated.

Older people whose treatment needs have been met in an acute hospital are being discharged to nursing homes under a scheme known as the delayed discharge initiative, DDI. This generally applies to persons who have spent reasonable lengthy periods, sometimes months, in acute hospitals. I welcome this because it frees beds to be used by people on waiting lists. Some of the nursing homes are very well equipped, while others are less so. I appreciate that only selected nursing homes have been approved for such admissions. Approval is generally based on the capacity of the nursing home to provide suitable care for high dependency residents. In previous years, funding for such beds was provided by the HSE. It now appears that payments under the DDI are being made by the hospitals. In order to minimise the cost to the hospital budget, older people are being offered places in nursing homes which are at a distance from their family homes and communities. Again, this has social implications for the elderly. Many older people from Dublin are being placed in nursing homes in other counties. There have been cases in which older persons and their family members have not accepted the places offered. This is perfectly understandable in certain circumstances. It is not appropriate to place older people in nursing homes which are distant from their friends, their families and their communities and in locations without public transport, making it difficult for people to visit.

A further complication is that at least some hospitals are refusing to make any payment where the older person does not accept the nursing home chosen for them by the hospital. This places the full burden of the costs on the older person and his or her family. If this is a precursor of what we can expect when the fair deal scheme is implemented, and the National Treatment Purchase Fund is negotiating contracts with nursing homes, then it is to be deplored and opposed. Older people must not be deprived of their right to go to nursing homes which are close to their families. While some limitations may need to apply to a hospital, the NTPF must not have a veto on this matter.

Assets that have been transferred at any time over the five years prior to the date will be included as means. With regard to assets transferred prior to 9 October 2008, the person may make an application to the executive to recalculate the means on the grounds that it is necessary to do so to avoid undue financial hardship. According to section 16, the amount of ancillary State support paid back shall be paid back with interest. Moneys advanced by the executive shall be aggregated and the consumer price index for mid-December in that year shall be taken to be the base figure.

If nursing home promoters and developers continue to seek economies of scale by building bigger and bigger nursing homes it will only serve to further diminish the quality of personalised care to which an older person is entitled. There is no overall strategy for the nursing home sector. Many nursing homes have been built over recent years with the aid of significant tax reliefs. The free market economic philosophy allowed many of these to be built in isolated areas or areas where land prices were cheap. Too many of these nursing homes are far from services such as GPs, pharmacies and physiotherapists. They are far from churches, shops and other amenities, even if there are diminishing numbers of nursing home residents who can avail of these.

In general, I welcome the Bill. Many questions have been asked during the debate and I look forward to the Minister's response. If the Minister intends to respond this evening, I will be at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children with the Minister, Deputy Harney, and Professor Drumm, so I will read the response afterwards.

I welcome the legislation. It was hoped it would come into effect from 1 January last, but that was not to be. I can well understand that, because it must be difficult to put together a ground-breaking Bill such as this. It is a novel way of doing things because it involves recouping in retrospect a portion of people's assets to pay for their nursing home care when they have passed on. This is a very reasonable and forward-thinking measure and should give our elderly peace of mind, because it allows them to delve into the value of their asset to ensure they will be properly cared for and looked after in their old age. This will be of great benefit and consolation to them and their families and while they will ultimately contribute financially to their years in a nursing home, it will not reduce in any way their standard of living or their feeling of security that they always have their family home to fall back on. It is a means by which people can have their cake and eat it.

I have no doubt there will be objections to the principle of this measure, but for the elderly themselves and for their families who otherwise would have to dig deep in their pockets, it allows the best of both worlds. True, the eventual inheritance may not be as large or as valuable as had been anticipated when the 5% levy for nursing home charges has been collected, but it gives the elderly a sense of security and independence they did not have before. In this instance, it is the elderly who are the priority.

The current situation is less than satisfactory and is not operating very well, with the result that there is a great deal of disquiet about it. It can be inequitable, selective and hit-and-miss. This is no way to treat a section of our society who have a right to a better outlook in life than this. I am unsure of the exact number of older people in private and public nursing homes, but based on earlier figures I saw, an estimate of 25,000 would be quite reasonable. This is a section of our population whose numbers will only increase in the future, so it is very important we get this legislation right and ensure that proper funding is available to look after these people in their twilight years.

The current level of subvention in my area has been quite low, and most applicants are seeking top-up payments and appealing the amount which has been granted to them. Invariably, these have failed. I have come across many families who are in genuine hardship trying to find the necessary funding to keep a parent in a private nursing home. There are many instances in which they do not have the money, and the HSE is just not providing sufficient funding for them to meet the associated costs. I have no doubt there are few in the House who do not consider this measure a priority, or who do not think the Bill should be given as much precedence as possible along its passage towards enactment.

In this country, we pride ourselves on cherishing the older generation and looking after older people in their declining years. I am not sure the reality matches our aspirations. We must be seen to look after the oldest and most vulnerable people in our society. We should be perceived to have the sensitivity and decency to give them the support, reassurance and stability they deserve after a lifetime of service to our society. I cannot over-emphasise how necessary it is for us to deal with this growing problem. This administrative dilemma can be resolved over time, with some discussion and a little ingenuity. It involves elderly people who may be suffering hardship, indignity and insecurity. It also involves concerned relatives who see no avenue open to them because they do not have the personal resources to fund care privately and cannot rely on the HSE. No proper policy is in place to resolve the dilemma they face.

This legislation has been due since the start of the year. The Bill will hardly be passed the end of the year. As hardship and indecisiveness persist in the meantime, the elderly will continue to suffer. Many children can do little to relieve their parents' distress or their own sense of helplessness. We must treat this as a greater priority. We all have the aspiration to live to old age. We look forward to the care and attention our families will give us personally, or arrange for us through professionals. We must understand that such care is being denied to many people at the moment. As legislators and as a Government, it behoves us to deal promptly with this problem. An adequate framework and sufficient resources are needed if elderly people and their families are to sleep easy in their beds at night without wondering where the necessary care will come from.

I know of many genuine cases of people who do not have sufficient funds to look after themselves or their parents in a proper and dignified manner. The HSE is not allocating sufficient funds to meet the growing crisis. I understand that the present financial climate is not helping the situation. I compliment the Taoiseach and the Cabinet for safely steering us, so far, through what has been a difficult situation, to say the least. It has been a nightmare for everyone. I realise that this uncertainty and instability will not help us to secure more resources. Equally, it is causing more problems and greater anxiety among the older and dependent population.

I heard a lady on the radio last week who used to have a modest income from some bank shares she inherited. This income gave her a financial cushion against hardship and the capacity to get a few additional necessities. Now that bank shares are on the floor, her cushion is gone. Not only has she lost the purchasing power that went with her small income, but she is more anxious about how she will cope in the future. As she is well into retirement, she wonders what her final years will bring. Who will provide for her care and needs in that insecure period of her life? As a taxpayer who spent her life making an investment in the State, she naturally feels she should be looked after now, at a time when she is unable to provide such care herself.

I am less than happy with the service our elderly are getting in this country. This is not the fault of the individuals who deliver the care. It does not result from any deliberate policy of neglect on the part of the State. Those who work in hospitals and nursing homes are excellent people. They are committed to their professions and living out their vocations. They would not be able to do their work, to the level they achieve, without a vocational interest and approach to it. The "county home" mentality has long gone, thankfully, and standards have improved immeasurably. However, we are unable to care for the number of people who require these services. This must be dealt with in an effective manner. We have not got it together in regard to our retired population. Successive Administrations have shied away from the problem. They have preferred to gloss over the situation and hope a solution would present itself. That has now happened, in the form of this progressive measure.

I thank and congratulate the Minister, Deputy Harney, for placing this issue firmly on the agenda. She has opened up debate, given the issue greater prominence and provided clarity. Those at the coal face can only go so far. The planning and provision of resources dictates a great deal of what happens. This Legislature and successive Governments have paid lip service to the problem without tackling it head-on or in depth. This must change. The introduction of this Bill gives us another opportunity to do so. In the third millennium and with the benefit of modern and progressive thinking, we can provide the resources and reassurance needed by our older generation. We need to take that element of worry from them, for once and for all. We all have our aspirations and principles with regard to the care of the older generation. It is not happening on the ground, however. We must make it happen now.

There are excellent carers in our hospitals and other caring institutions. There is no deficiency in that respect. We do not have a coherent policy or an integrated approach, however. To use a dreadful modern phrase, we do not have "joined-up thinking" in this area. We are not delivering the kind of service we would like or the level of care the elderly have a right to expect. Before the passage of this Bill is complete, we must have a clear pathway ahead. The blueprint the Bill provides for will be with us for years or decades to come. The legislation currently governing this area derives from the Health Act 1970, the Health (Nursing Homes) Act 1990 and the Health (Nursing Homes) (Amendment) Act 2007. We have visited the subject three times, never comprehensively or substantially, over the last 38 years. The Ireland of today is vastly different to the Ireland of the pre-EU days of 1970. We must sufficiently provide for whatever it takes to tidy up the situation as it stands.

It has been frequently acknowledged that there is a lack of clarity in respect of eligibility for nursing home care. I accept that everybody is entitled to such care in a public nursing home, regardless of their means. Not enough beds are available to cater for everyone, however. Where possible, people of advanced years or anyone else who needs care should be cared for in their own homes, regardless of their age. This can be facilitated by means of the provision of home help or regular visits from those who provide skilled nursing care. There does not appear to be as much emphasis on this point as there might be. I accept that efforts are being made in this respect, but implementation seems to be slow.

Health professionals have made it clear that our hospitals are not functioning near full capacity because beds are not being managed properly on a national basis. Patients who have undergone surgery should not be allowed to occupy a surgical bed beyond the number of days or hours professionally deemed necessary. Such a bed should be made available at the first opportunity for the next person who requires a procedure. That person should, in turn, vacate it quickly when the time comes. There are not enough beds lower down the scale of nursing care. As a result, there are people in high-care beds who should not be there. We learned a couple of weeks ago that a young girl is being housed in a hospital on a long-term basis, even though there is nothing wrong with her, because there is nowhere else for her to go. This is a scandal.

Systems need to be devised and implemented to ensure people do not occupy a bed above the level of priority they need. If greater use were made of home help and home nursing programmes, better use could be made of valuable, scarce and expensive hospital beds and waiting lists could be reduced. I do not doubt that health professionals would get a better sense of achievement from their work in circumstances of greater productivity. More importantly, people with painful, debilitating and dangerous conditions would receive care much earlier. Many people would have a higher chance of being cured and returning to normal life.

Everybody knows that the health service in this country is not working to full capacity, or with the level of competence of which it is capable. However, it would be facile to blame all our ills on the Minister, Deputy Harney, or the chief executive of the HSE. They have both worked diligently to reverse the trend, but have endured an uphill struggle against vested interests and entrenched positions. In volunteering for what must be the most difficult and politically suicidal portfolio in the Cabinet, the Minister did something that had never before been heard of in this country, or in many other countries for that matter. The chief executive officer, likewise, left a lucrative private medical practice, where he lived in relative obscurity and anonymity, to drink from the other side of the poisoned chalice that is the health service. In his budget address, the Minister for Finance made a call to patriotic action on the part of everyone. The two people at the forefront of the health service have already made that commitment publicly and at some personal sacrifice. We should all acknowledge that.

Many of the ills of our health service are deeply ingrained and were inherited from a previous generation. While a great deal of progress has been made in treating with different professions, there is still a distance to go. Moreover, there is a lack of consistency throughout the various regions in the application of criteria. While our health service operates on a nationwide basis, there are different approaches and practices in different areas. I am unsure what is happening in other community care areas throughout the State, for example, but I am certain there are many different interpretations of what the level of funding should be. I am sure the data would show that people elsewhere are receiving substantially more than those in the Waterford community care area.

The Bill provides for the care of the elderly at a cost of 5%, based on the value of the person's assets, usually the family home, to a maximum of 15% deferred until after the death of the patient. This addresses the main concern of people who are in and out of hospital or nursing home care, namely, whether their home will be there when they are ready to return to it. The Bill offers a vital guarantee for people who are already suffering deep anxiety and is, as I said earlier, the best of both worlds. However, some clarifications are required. For example, if three bachelor brothers living together in what was the family home all find themselves in need of nursing home care, will the maximum of 15% still apply in regard to their asset? It would seem excessive if it were to be otherwise. I am sure the Minister will clarify this point in her reply.

A detailed care needs assessment is provided for in section 7(6). This will standardise the criteria by which people are deemed eligible for the scheme. I am not generally in favour of means testing, but this particular scheme has no relation to money. There is a lengthy list of criteria which applicants must satisfy if they are to qualify for nursing home care, all of which seem reasonable. Perhaps because of our history, or as a result of previous experience, any type of assessment is generally looked upon with suspicion and resentment. There may have been good cause for such caution in the past. In the case of this scheme, it is to be expected that the assessment process may be looked at with a degree of suspicion by those who must undergo it.

I ask the Minister to ensure that the assessment process is implemented with the maximum of sensitivity and the minimum of interference in people's private lives and with due regard for the dignity of the person. Bearing in mind the possible incapacities already being borne by potential patients, the process must not be made any more difficult or intrusive than is absolutely necessary. There must be a standard methodology to apply right across the regions and it should be ensured that it is strictly adhered to in the interests of patients.

In conclusion, I am pleased that this long-standing area of difficulty is being tackled in a comprehensive and a sensible manner. It is essential that by the time this Bill is passed, we will have a system of nursing home care which provides adequately for some of the weakest members of society. This Bill, with some amendment and clarification, is adequate to the task and I commend it to the House.

I have spoken strongly against this Bill since its inception. I remain of the opinion that one's home is one's castle and that there should be no interference by the Government or anybody else which serves to undermine that ownership by predetermining what costs should be placed against it. The Bill is fundamentally flawed in this regard.

I recently asked the excellent staff in the Oireachtas Library to conduct a survey into what home and land ownership meant to people since the foundation of the State. I was amazed to discover the effort and dedication shown by families over a long period to ensure that what they had was retained within the family. As I said, people's homes are their castles and they have the right to pass them on to members of their family or otherwise, as they so wish. This should always be upheld, according to the Constitution. There is absolutely no reason to encroach on this principle in any type of legislation. As I told my constituency colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Power, when he introduced the previous Bill dealing with these matters, I could not fathom how the Government could seek to undermine this first principle.

I am the first to recognise the need for more hospital beds and long-term stay beds. My mother has been in long-term residential care in St. Vincent's Hospital in Athy, a wonderful facility, for nine or ten years. I see the pressures on staff in that hospital on a daily basis in seeking to accommodate those in need of long-term and respite care. A former colleague of mine, Councillor Jim Keane, is currently in respite care at St. Vincent's. He too would acknowledge the wonderful work being done in that facility. When one sees what can be done, one must question why the Government would seek to move away from the universal principle that all citizens of the State are equal and are entitled to equal treatment under any legislation that is put through the Oireachtas.

The threat to the principle of universality of health care, for reasons of cost reductions, is the basis of the Labour Party's objection to the Bill. This will undermine the automatic right of senior citizens to long-term care and will mean they are treated differently from the rest of the population. People who suffer from dementia may be uncertain of their own health status and unaware of events happening around them. However, they will generally be able to engage in conversations on what is happening on the home front. If one can get their attention for any period, all they are interested in is what is happening at home.

The vital question in all this is whether this Bill is an acceptable reflection of how we should care for senior citizens. Whether in their worst or best moments, most of these people will focus on their one possession, that is, their home. This legislation will mean, in many instances, that the children of parents in long-term residential care will have to sell the family home because they will not otherwise have the resources to pay for that care. Many people would struggle to secure a loan in the current economic climate. I find it repulsive that this legislation threatens a right for which Irish people fought over a long period. The research conducted by the staff in the Oireachtas Library confirms the general and long-held view that one's home is one's castle. It is to the forefront in this legislation.

Age Action Ireland stated that the Bill sounds the death knell of the public bed for those who need a residential home bed. It also means the introduction for the first time in the Irish health service of a charge beyond the grave for essential health care services. Age Action Ireland is a vibrant group that looks after senior citizens. I have seen the organisation take action time and again when negotiating with State agencies to provide a better standard of living for senior citizens. It has provided better comfort on a range of issues and has changed the lives of senior citizens. When a body like Age Action Ireland comes out with this statement, it shows the concern that this Bill is causing senior citizens. I am sure that the officials in that excellent organisation did not provide this off the top of their heads, but would have received it from its grass roots.

Age Action Ireland has provided safety facilities, lighting facilities and so on for the many senior citizens under its remit. It also promotes age action weeks and such like, so it has a hands on experience of the situation. The organisation stated that we must be concerned when legislation like this is introduced because we are effectively treating elderly people differently, depending on the conditions from which they suffer.

The Labour Party is committed to a universal health care system. These people have given their all to sustain the State in difficult times and provided homes for their loved ones. Life in Ireland has changed since the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s, when everybody stayed at home and nobody bought homes before they got married. Everything was done within the family. These people provided those homes, which is why they recognise the importance of not interfering with the family home. It is also why Age Action Ireland and other groups feel that this interference should not exist.

The current Government has stated that elderly people can take one option or the other. However, either way people will have to provide the cost in some shape or form. Deputy Kenneally spoke about the number of people in a home, where somebody is a carer or where there could be three or four bachelors looking after a loved one in the home. What happens if that cost is put on the family home? What will happen to those people? Why should that financial worry be transferred to people who looked after the elderly, sometimes for 30 or 40 years before they had to be put into a nursing home?

I know of a case where a man in his 60s who was living in local authority accommodation was found in a poor condition and had to be hospitalised. Tremendous pressure had to be applied on the HSE to get him two weeks of respite care. He had a small amount of money that he received in a will from his late parents, and that was used to give him another few weeks in a nursing home. He cannot get a long-stay position anywhere, and the cost of the short stay is €750 per week. He only has €249, while the health board will provide €370. They are around €200 short, so who will pay for it? That man will soon be put back into uninhabitable conditions, because there is no public bed for him. When I inquired about an enhanced grant for that man, I was told that there was a waiting list and that it was possible he would not get any such grant in the foreseeable future. He therefore has a weekly bill of €200 that is building up, yet nobody seems to care about how he will address it. This is the situation in which we find ourselves, because section 5 of the Bill states that this is way the subvention scheme will operate.

When somebody comes to me asking about nursing home subventions, the first thing I think of is the person's income related to the cost of the nursing home. If there is no link, then the HSE must increase the subvention to ensure that the person can get into a nursing home. However, that is not the case. The reality is that the cost of keeping the person in the nursing home, such as that man in Athy, will develop into a huge bill. After a certain point, the nursing home management will state that as it is running a business, it cannot afford to care for this man anymore. The HSE has stated that it has no long-stay bed for him. He will probably end up in the accident and emergency department and will take up a bed there. The whole idea of nursing home subvention is to get away from that, but it will not happen unless a proper plan is put in place. The first aspect of such a plan should be the provision of long-stay beds in public hospitals.

Universality is the most important aspect in the provision of services. The senior citizen will then be protected and there will be no need to worry about the family home. There is no doubt that this new scheme will cost more, in spite of the fact that the person involved may be an ordinary citizen with little income. For example, Mr. Doyle is a widower who lives in Kildare in his own home. He bought his council house under the tenant purchase scheme, which has a current market value of €200,000. His sole income is the contributory pension of €230 per week. If he enters a public nursing home now, he will pay €120 per week, but if he enters after this Bill is enacted, he will pay €341 per week. A cost is immediately placed on his estate, which is why a universal health service is so important to the Labour Party. Unless we get more clarity on it, we cannot support this Bill.

Debate adjourned.
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