Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 18 Dec 2008

Vol. 671 No. 2

Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2008: Report and Final Stages

Amendment No. 1 not moved.

Deputy Terence Flanagan

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 11, between lines 27 and 28, to insert the following:

"PART 5A

10.—Section 13 of the Electoral Act 1992 is amended by the insertion of a new subsection (5) as follows:

‘(5) (a) The marked copies of the register of voters in each constituency shall be made available for public inspection in the local authority offices and public libraries within the constituency to which the register relates.

(b) Any document under paragraph (a) shall, after a period of five years, be maintained in the national archives.’.”.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Deputy Michael P. Kitt)

Under existing law, the marked copies of the register are made available for inspection by the Clerk of the Dáil under section 131 of the Electoral Act 1992 for a six-month period after a Dáil election. At European and local elections, which are nowadays held at the same time and with the same register documentation, the marked copies are retained by the local authority returning officer for public inspection over a similar period.

The effect of the proposed amendment would be to require the marked registers to be available in both local authority offices and libraries. Logistically, it would involve over 6,000 documents from each election being available for a five-year period instead of six months and then being transferred to the national archives afterwards instead of being destroyed. There are already detailed arrangements in place for inspection of registers of elections. I am satisfied that these operate in a satisfactory manner, given the issues that inevitably arise with custody, transportation and inspection of the over 6,000 marked registers involved. Therefore, I do not propose to accept the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Amendments Nos. 3 and 4 are related and may be discussed together.

Deputy Michael P. Kitt

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 20, to delete lines 17 to 26 and substitute the following:

"13.— The Second Schedule to the European Parliament Elections Act 1997 is amended—

(a) in rule 17—

(i) in paragraph (a)(i) by substituting “six” for “four”, and

(ii) in paragraph (a)(ii) by substituting “four” for “three”,

and

(b) in rule 88 by substituting the following paragraph for paragraph (3):

‘(3) When the last vacancies can be filled under this rule, no further transfer of votes shall be made unless any of the continuing candidates has not been credited with a number of votes exceeding one quarter of the quota and it is necessary for the purposes of section 21 of the Electoral Act 1997 or section 13A(1)(e) to make such transfer in order to establish whether such a number of votes could be credited to that candidate.’.”.

This amendment is grouped with Labour Party amendment No. 4 and has been introduced in response to the amendment tabled by Deputy Tuffy on Committee Stage and re-entered in modified form for Report Stage. It relates to the filling of casual vacancies in the European Parliament. The Deputy proposed that political parties would be able to nominate replacement candidates where the replacement list was exhausted, or those remaining on the list were unable, for whatever reason, to take up the position. The Minister was not inclined to accept the amendment on Committee Stage because of the existing provision for the Dáil to resolve the matter should it ever arise. Also, it is undesirable to have political parties selecting candidates without the electorate first having an opportunity to see who might represent them in Europe. The focus should be on parties and non-party candidates operating and making best use of the current arrangements for nominating replacements.

However, the Minister indicated on Committee Stage that he would reflect further on the matter. Currently, a registered political party may nominate such a number of replacement candidates in each constituency that does not exceed by more than four the number of candidates of that party nominated for the constituency. Therefore, if three candidates stand for a party, there can be seven names on the replacement list. If there are four candidates, there can be eight replacements etc. I am satisfied the number of replacements already provided for is sufficient for the circumstances likely to arise.

However, in view of the concerns expressed by Deputies on the opposite side of the House, and taking account of the fact that candidates themselves may, and often are, included as replacements, the Government amendment proposes to increase the limit from four to six for registered political parties. In future, if three candidates are standing for a party nine names are permitted on the replacement list, if four candidates are standing, ten are permitted etc. This is more than a sufficient number for any scenario likely to arise.

The amendment also proposes to increase the number, from three to four, of replacement candidates that a non-party candidate may nominate. This is contained in the proposed new paragraph (a) of section 13 and it adequately addresses concerns about people not being available to fill seats, while at the same time maintaining the important link with voter preferences expressed at election time.

In the circumstances, and in a spirit of compromise, I ask the House to accept the Government amendment. I ask that Deputy Tuffy consider withdrawing the Labour Party amendment.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I welcome the Minister's response on this matter. The Labour Party will withdraw the amendment. I commend the Minister for the consideration he gave to the amendment as presented by Deputy Tuffy and for taking on board its intent.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 4 not moved.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Amendment No. 5, in the names of Deputies Lynch and Tuffy, also arises from Committee Stage.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I move amendment No. 5:

In page 20, between lines 39 and 40, to insert the following:

"15.—It shall be a function of each local authority to prepare and make available to the public without charge accurate and up to date maps of the local electoral areas within the functional area of the authority.".

This concerns a simple day to day aspect of the efficient management of elections and local elections, both for those who engage in the electoral process and for the public.

I am not sure of the situation in the Minister of State's constituency, but in my own area of Cork South-Central and in others around the country there appear to be two clear difficulties. One is that the local franchise office may, or may not, have a map of the constituency available to people. If they do, that map is probably several years out of date and does not take into account the build in recent housing estates. The estate I live in is not on the electoral map, for instance. There are tracts of land in Cork city and in its suburban areas that are not on the map. Moving further out of Cork city, the county franchise office has no street map or town map for the town of Carrigaline.

The amendment tabled by the Labour Party calls for a common sense requirement to facilitate the efficient operation of elections. Just as the franchise office is required to maintain, update and provide as accurate a register as it can, another part of its duties is to provide accurate maps and other details. The local authority should be responsible for making such maps available just as they make available copies of the register. This should be a day to day operational function of the local authorities. It is with the intent of having good sense and good practice that I put forward this amendment. I ask the Minister to accept it on the basis that it is an improvement on the existing scheme.

Deputy Michael P. Kitt

This was discussed on Committee Stage, as Deputy Lynch is aware. Maps of local electoral areas, as recommended by the Boundary Commission, are available in its published reports. These reports are on my Department's websites at www.environ.ie and are freely available for viewing.

While maps are important and easy to use they are for illustrative purposes only and have no legal basis with regard to the composition of local electoral areas. The legal basis for local electoral areas is the different ministerial orders which contain detailed technical descriptions of the areas concerned. However, maps of local electoral areas are of benefit to candidates and I agree with the Deputy on this. They are also of benefit to political parties and to the public in general. The Minister has indicated he intends to write to local authorities requesting them to produce and make available maps of the local electoral areas relevant to their councils' functional areas. I hope the House will agree this is the appropriate way forward. In this circumstances, and in the light of what I have said, I ask that the amendment be withdrawn.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Lynch has two minutes in this part of the debate.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

One could write about this matter to local authorities until the cows come home because, in the absence of legislation, there is no directive or direction. The Minister is correct when he states there is no legislative function. The amendment in question proposes to put a legislative function in place.

It is also about accuracy. If people walk into their franchise office or local post office they can look at their estate and see where their vote is in a local electoral area. Often boundaries in local electoral areas run down the middle of a road. An accurate map would help people find out who are their candidates and what local electoral area they are in. I would have no difficulty withdrawing the amendment if the Minister were to examine the issue as he did with the earlier Labour Party amendment. There is not much expectation to be drawn from writing to local authorities on the matter.

Deputy Terence Flanagan

I agree with the Labour Party amendment. It is a common sense proposal. Candidates who wish to run in elections should at least be able to see their areas in map form and this should be available through the local authority.

I have a question about Ordnance Survey Ireland in general. I purchased an Ordnance Survey map of my constituency only to find that not all roads, particularly newer ones, were on the map. It was impossible to discover all the roads without walking them and getting to know them in that way. How often are Ordnance Survey maps updated? Can this be done on a more regular basis? As a minimum, the Minister of State should ensure that maps are available for candidates. That would be a good initiative.

Deputy Michael P. Kitt

Local authorities are responsible for the planning, organisation and holding of local elections in their areas. They are best placed to produce such maps, given their range of local responsibilities. It should be left to local authorities to decide on the arrangements for making them available and whether to charge for them. The production of maps is not appropriate for inclusion in legislation, particularly if the maps under discussion do not have any legal standing. This is an administrative matter for the local authorities.

With regard to Deputy Flanagan's point, the Minister is in contact with local authorities, and with managers in particular, to discuss these issues. In respect of Dáil constituencies, previous Ministers have circulated to Deputies and Senators maps following constituency revision. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, is continuing this practice and has arranged with the Ordnance Survey Ireland to produce maps of each constituency provided for in the Bill. These maps will be circulated to Deputies and Senators and will assist them to familiarise themselves, if they need to, with changes to individual constituencies. There is no legal basis for maps on their own.

I referred to other matters earlier. I hope this amendment will be withdrawn and that we can agree on what the Minister proposes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

How stands the amendment?

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

The Labour Party will withdraw the amendment. While I take on board the issue raised by the Minister with regard to legal standing, there is an issue of good practice. The Labour Party would be happy to withdraw the amendment if the Minister were to give an assurance to the House that this is a matter——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the amendment withdrawn?

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

In withdrawing the amendment, can I ask the Minister of State——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister of State cannot speak again.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

In that case, I withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill reported with amendment and received for final consideration.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Deputy Dan Neville

I want to again put on the record the concerns of people in my constituency and our neighbouring constituency, formerly Limerick East. We do not welcome the Bill. We were advised there would be minimal change when the commission was given its instruction yet we have seen our two constituencies butchered, to put it mildly. Limerick is losing a seat in that it had eight seats but now has just seven.

People are quite engaged and upset about this issue. We do not understand the logic as to why places in the west such as Abbeyfeale, Athea, Monagea, Templeglantine, Tournafulla, Mountcollins and Glin were essentially moved to Kerry North, with a transfer of over 13,000 votes into Kerry North. Political activists of all parties, the general public and those who supported people like myself, Deputy Noonan and our colleagues in both constituencies do not understand why this has happened when it was not flagged or expected and was not logical when it did happen. We received more than 17,000 votes from the former Limerick East into the new constituency of Limerick, where I live.

I do not welcome the Bill. I am very happy to represent the new areas of Doon, Cappamore, Oola, Pallasgreen, Caherconlish, Boheroe, Hospital, Murroe and Drumkeen. However, what has happened is unacceptable. We in Limerick believe this was politically motivated to ensure Kerry would hold its six-seat representation and Limerick would lose one seat.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

The Labour Party still has problems with the way the drawing up of constituencies is dealt with. One of the particular issues we raised concerned the undesirability of three-seat constituencies. While this has not been taken on board, as Deputy Neville said, it remains an issue whether it is sustainable to have three-seat constituencies. When the Ceann Comhairle sits in a three-seat constituency, for example, only two other Members can be elected, which limits the operation of democracy in that constituency. Obviously, the more seats in a constituency, the more likely the smaller parties will get to be represented and people who use their vote will have an opportunity to actually elect someone.

I thank the Minister and the Minister of State for making an amendment on the issue of how European candidates should be dealt with, although this was not exactly as we proposed. We welcome that the Minister engaged in discussion on Committee Stage and took on board the Labour Party view.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

There was no logical reason for the constituencies to be redrawn in Limerick, which has lost one seat, other than the desire to retain two three-seaters in Kerry. Logic would have dictated that Kerry should have gone from two three-seaters to one five-seater but that has not happened.

The area I was elected to represent, Limerick East, took in the city and a portion of east county Limerick, including areas already referred to such as Murroe, Cappamore, Doon, Pallasgreen, Oola and Templebraiden, which have now all transferred to Limerick West. This huge new constituency, which is called Limerick County, stretches as far as Glin. The people of Limerick East were represented by Deputies from the area for decades but they now feel disconnected. They still come to local Deputies with constituency queries and I will certainly continue to represent them at all times. It needs to be put on record that the people of east Limerick feel disenfranchised. What has happened would not have happened except for reasons which are unknown but which clearly indicate that some people wanted two three-seaters in Kerry when it should have been one five-seater.

It is a sad day for Limerick in terms of losing a Dáil representative overall, with eight seats being reduced to seven between the two constituencies. However, I will continue to represent the people who elected me.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

At the beginning of this debate, the whole area of how the drafting process works and the formation of electoral commissions was questioned. One of the issues we need to consider in future, and Limerick is a case in point, is that when the commission brings its report before us, it is a fait accompli. The Labour Party argues that there needs to be a draft process whereby the commission publishes a draft, public consultation follows on that draft, which remains with the commission, and the commission then forwards it to the Minister, who moves it into legislation. What we are doing at present is drafting at the legislative stage, which is not the way we should operate. There should be a particular period in which drafting is completed.

While I am not suggesting this is a miscellaneous electoral Bill, there was an expectation that before the Dáil concluded its business for the Christmas recess, a general if not a specific indication would have been given with regard to spending in next year's local elections. I envisaged that this Bill would have been a platform on which we could have achieved that measure. While the Minister does not need to indicate the specific amount, he might have indicated a general amount or guideline as to what that expenditure would be.

Most political parties are in the process of developing, or in some cases are up and running with, their plans for next year's local elections. However, they cannot budget because they do not know the specifics with regard to poster size, what posters can be used and so on. I do not know if it is a question of the Minister, Deputy Gormley's, indecisiveness, whether there are complexities involved or whether this will be rolled out before 4 June, when I understand the local elections are to take place. In the absence of providing us with any specifics in the Bill, I call on the Minister to indicate what the general sum of expenditure will be for the local elections. The Minister is on record as stating that spending limits will be in place for next year's local elections. It behoves him and he has a democratic duty to provide us with information on the operation of democratic structures in the State. It is not something that should remain on his desk. There is a democratic obligation on the Minister to provide us with that sum as we approach next year's local elections. I ask the Minister of State, Deputy Michael P. Kitt, to bring this matter to the attention of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and urge him to take action in that regard.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Deputy Michael P. Kitt)

The Bill puts in place key measures to facilitate Dáil, European and local elections. It also makes significant and worthwhile improvements to the processes of constituency commissions. Some people may be disappointed by the decisions as Deputies Neville, O'Donnell and Ciarán Lynch have remarked. However, there has been broad welcome in the House for the legislation.

I thank Deputy Tuffy for her comments, but if we were to rule out three-seat constituencies, except in exceptional circumstances, it would be very restrictive and unworkable. Let us consider County Donegal, for example, and the difficulties in that county of trying to deal with six seats. The matter of spending limits will be addressed on Committee Stage in the Seanad. I do not have the figures, because the amendment has yet to be approved by the Government. However, it will be addressed next year in the Seanad. I thank Deputies on all sides of the House for their contributions to the debate on the Bill. I also thank the staff of the House for the expeditious manner with which they dealt with the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.