Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 23 Nov 2010

Vol. 722 No. 4

Leaders’ Questions

Deputy Enda Kenny

In the past week we have seen the authority of and trust in this Government evaporate. Having been told only last week that there was no need for any outside intervention or help with regard to a bailout, people have watched in horror as the IMF, the ECB and the European Commission arrived in Dublin. Within three days the Taoiseach announced a formal application for a bailout. Yesterday we saw the spectacle of the Taoiseach's absent friends withdrawing support from the Government on the basis that they had been betrayed and there was no proper communication within the Cabinet. It seems, following the Taoiseach's press conference yesterday, that there is an ongoing attempt to cling to power at all costs.

At this time of crisis what our country needs is confidence and stability; it currently has neither. That is why people with money in banks are concerned about whether it should be left there because the budget might not get through. It is very important to reiterate to those people that their money is safe.

I assure the Taoiseach that my party will act constructively in the interest of Ireland with a view to stability and confidence required both here and internationally. That is why we have a motion before the Dáil this evening that seeks to send a signal internationally about the importance of the 12.5% corporation tax rate, a fundamental cornerstone of foreign direct investment to our country.

An Ceann Comhairle

While I do not wish to interrupt Deputy Kenny, the time available for Leaders' Questions is limited.

Deputy Enda Kenny

For this reason, I accept the Taoiseach's invitation to meet the delegation from the IMF, ECB and European Commission. However, I will make one specific request to the Taoiseach. He has within his grasp two dates which can restore certainty and a sense of confidence. The first of these is the date of the budget. The Taoiseach noted the importance of passing the budget. The four year fiscal plan will be presented tomorrow. The first year of the plan is, in effect, the budget for 2011. In the interests of being constructive and of certainty, stability and confidence I ask the Taoiseach to indicate to the House that he will bring the budget forward to next week. As he is aware from experience, a slimmed down version of the Finance Bill containing the key ingredients of the budget can be put through the House. I will facilitate the Government by having the House sit from Monday to Friday in order that the legislative process can be completed by Christmas. Such a step would bring some measure of certainty to a Government that is out of control.

The Taoiseach

As I made clear yesterday, there is no question that the characterisation of clinging to office is my motivation. That is not the case. My sole motivation is to ensure that a four year plan is published, as agreed with the people with whom we are dealing, and that a budget is put to the House and passed. The Minister for Finance has agreed a timeline for doing so with the Commissioner, Mr. Olli Rehn. The Commissioner made it clear again today that while it is a matter for this House to decide when it does its budget, he does not want the process to drift into the new year. I have explained that it is very important, in terms of meeting fiscal targets and getting full year effects of the plans we have in place, that we proceed with the budget on the day we have set out. We want to do that properly and appropriately. The timeline was agreed with the Commissioner when he came here to speak to the Minister for Finance. The Government very much agrees that the best statement of confidence for this country is to pass the budget. It is very important that this happens.

While I do not wish to go over again some of the issues Deputy Kenny raised, unfortunately it is becoming something of an argument in terms of the political charge that has been made. I want to make the position clear. Last weekend, I refuted specific reports that were put to me and which were untrue at the time. The first of these was the report that we had applied to join a facility. I felt it was very important to confirm that this was not the case. There were perhaps interests or people who felt that Ireland should make such an application immediately but I was very anxious to ensure that I represented the taxpayers and people of this country and that we made sure what would be the parameters of any discussion.

In relation to the technical discussions that were taking place in preparation for the meeting on Tuesday night, we wanted to make sure that we were made aware of whatever concerns were being expressed and that our Minister attending the discussions could deal with them. The political decision that was made on Tuesday night was to have a short, focused discussion with us in Dublin. As Deputy Kenny is aware, this has moved along quickly.

We must always confirm to each other that it is not the intention of any Government at any time to do anything other than represent the people of our country to the greatest extent possible. I was simply responding truthfully to those specific reports, which were untrue at the time.

We made a formal application on Sunday, having had the opportunity to set some parameters for the discussions, including as the Deputy noted, the importance of the 12.5% corporation tax rate as a cornerstone of our industrial policy. It is important that people are clear in relation to some of these things — not specifically or uniquely about that matter but generally as we were proceeding with this issue.

My second point is that it was unusual that a Government which had been pre-funded until July would have to consider applying for this facility, as we decided to do on Sunday. It is clear, however, given the abnormality in the market situation and the perception or view of the G7 and of our EU partners and others, that it was important in terms of any instability in the euro area generally that we consider this matter on that basis. We were prepared to do so because we are anxious to meet our international obligations. However, we must also protect our own interests in the best way possible. That is what I want to say on that matter.

There is no intention or motivation on my part or on the part of anyone in the Government to mislead anybody. While our room for manoeuvre was constrained or limited, what we were trying to do was to ensure we were not bounced into a situation. We looked at the situation calmly, worked with colleagues, listened to concerns and made sure the parameters of the decisions we were about to take were consistent with what was best for the country in the circumstances.

In relation to the other matter the Deputy raises, yesterday evening I set out clearly in a statement what are the Government's intentions. A statement of confidence would be to pass the budget. We will publish our four year plan, as we stated we would do, and submit it to the European Commission. We will then bring forward whatever legislative enactments are necessary. I do not wish to anticipate what these will be because some of them are budgetary matters but we will deal with these matters as promptly as possible to bring certainty to the situation for the financial year 2011.

I reiterate what I made clear in my statement yesterday, namely, that there will be an opportunity for us to go to the country and have the country make a decision as to who should have a mandate to continue with the challenging work that faces the country in the years ahead. However, the immediate priority — I know there are some who perhaps genuinely believe we should have an election at this time — is to pass the budget as we have said we will do. Having set out the timeline for doing so, we need to proceed with it. A €6 billion correction has to be brought forward. That is the context and basis on which important discussions are ongoing regarding what will be the terms and conditions of the facility. We need to continue to do this in as focused and calm a manner as possible.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Taoiseach used two important phrases. He referred to the "immediate priority" and also to "certainty". These are not normal times, this is not business as usual and I have no interest in attempting to play political games about something as serious for the people and country as the current situation. I am not sure whether the absence of some of the Taoiseach's erstwhile friends from Cabinet means they have been sacked or are about to be sacked. That is for the Taoiseach to decide.

I do not accept that if one wants to bring certainty to this matter in respect of the budget, it cannot be done next week. It was very easy for the Government to introduce a Bill overnight to take €1 billion from old age pensioners who were in nursing homes. What is at stake here is certainty, stability and the confidence of our people.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy put a question?

Deputy Enda Kenny

Yes. Maybe the Taoiseach does not appreciate the level of absolute exasperation and anger out there. One thing he can do is bring forward the budget next week. He could also bring forward the essentials of the Finance Bill. I will facilitate this if the Taoiseach so wishes by having the House sit from Monday until Friday for the two subsequent weeks to allow the Government to complete the legislative process. That is a constructive proposal made in the interests of certainty, stability and restoring confidence both at home and abroad.

What I do not want is to hear statements such as that made by the Minister for Transport today when he spoke of the Government going out——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, do you have a question? There is limited time for Leaders' Questions.

Deputy Enda Kenny

This is much too serious.

Deputy James Reilly

There was no time limit on the Taoiseach's response.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

The Ceann Comhairle should be constructive. This is not a game.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The point is the Minister for Transport was talking about having an election out in April or May. Does the Taoiseach have any concept of the reaction this creates in respect of uncertainty? I am stating, from my own experience here, that it is perfectly in order for the Government to bring in its budget next week. It could bring in a slimmed-down version of the key essentials of the finance Bill and have that put through the legislative process, to which the Taoiseach correctly referred, in the Dáil and the Seanad and have it out of the way by Christmas. That would restore some sense of stability, confidence and belief internationally that at long last, Ireland was beginning to move the way it should.

I offer this proposal in the spirit of being constructive. If the Taoiseach is serious about what he stated regarding the immediate priority and the restoration of certainty, I would support that. Consequently, I offer the Taoiseach the opportunity to bring forward the budget and a slimmed-down key essential finance Bill and to deal with it before the House rises for Christmas. The Taoiseach could then name the date for the general election towards the end of January.

The Taoiseach

I wish to make clear that I do not anticipate in any way the timeline Deputy Kenny suggests would be involved in completing the necessary legislative enactments to put into law the budgetary and other matters that must be complied with when the budget is announced. Second, as the Deputy is aware, November is an important month for tax revenues and it is of critical importance to get right the end of November returns as one enters the next financial year to ensure one's budgetary assessment is correct and that the figures are up to date. The Deputy also is aware this is the case. Therefore, one introduces the budget within a week of those figures being brought through and incorporated. This is the reason the budget always takes place at that time. My point is that the Commission and the people with whom the Government is dealing accept the issuing of the four-year plan this week, as well as the holding of the budget on 7 December with the information that will ensure its qualitative and quantitative nature is correct, to be important and that the Government should do it in that way.

Lest the Deputy think otherwise, I do not question his attempt or offer to be constructive. However, he also is aware the Government must do this correctly and must get its end of November figures as part of its budgetary assessment. Consequently, I am talking about having a budget to put before this House within the next two weeks and publishing a four-year plan tomorrow.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

I wish to pursue this a bit further because we now are in a situation of considerable instability and lack of certainty. This largely has been brought about by the Government itself. The Taoiseach contributed to this last week when he continued to deny that discussions were taking place with the European Union and the IMF. It ended up that the Governor of the Central Bank told Members on Thursday on radio what the Taoiseach should have told them earlier in the week. It ended up that the IMF was brought in, with an application being made to the stabilisation fund on Sunday, which was something the Taoiseach had been denying all week. All of this then was compounded by the decision of the Taoiseach's partners in government to withdraw from the Government, albeit not just yet, but with the caveat that they would remain on until the budgetary process was completed.

The Taoiseach states that the budget must be passed. One should be clear about this because strictly speaking, there is no such thing. As the Taoiseach is aware, a process happens. The budget is introduced, followed by a series of financial resolutions on the night of the budget. Many of them deal with immediate matters such as excise duty, the price of petrol or cigarettes and so on and they often are not all that controversial as far as the House passing them is concerned. However, this then is followed by two legislative items that are required to give effect to the budgetary measures. The first is a social welfare Bill, which was passed before Christmas last year. The second is a finance Bill, which I understand did not complete its way through the House last year until 25 March.

I have two questions for the Taoiseach. First, what is the timeline about which he is talking? The Taoiseach should set out the steps for Members. In his response to Deputy Kenny, the Taoiseach rejected his suggestion that the Government should bring forward the date of the budget, which is a proposition with which I agree. However, the Taoiseach has rejected it and has stated that he is sticking with the date of 7 December. What is the Taoiseach's timeline after 7 December? In particular, when does he envisage the finance Bill being presented, voted on and enacted? Second, since one party in government already has semi-detached itself from the Government and because I have heard statements from some Independent Members who have loyally supported the Government over the past three years that suggest such loyalty and continued support may be, at least, in doubt, does the Taoiseach consider that the Government has a sufficient majority to put through the financial resolutions of the budget on budget night itself, the social welfare Bill that will come after that and the finance Bill?

The Taoiseach

As the Deputy has stated, I have given the reason to Deputy Kenny, which I reiterate to the Deputy, about the question of the end of November tax returns being an important part of the construction of any budget. In particular, for a budget that is being devised in these circumstances, it certainly is important that this is the case. This timeline is known to the Commission and the people with whom we are dealing and the Government will proceed on that basis. My point is that it will be possible to do this far sooner than, for example, the suggestion that the Dáil be dissolved to be followed by an election, that subsequently there be a programme for Government, whoever might be involved in that, and that people would then take up office, prepare a budget, gain Government approval for it and bring it into the House. All Members are aware that this would take a lot longer than the appointed budget date of 7 December.

I also have made the point that the discussions that have been undertaken with the European Union and the institutions concerned both since the Government formally applied on Sunday and in the focused discussions since Thursday when they arrived here, are based on and in the context of the publication of a four-year plan this week and the ratification of a budget on 7 December. This is an integral part of the process in which the Government has engaged.

The third point to make to the Deputy is that while I do not wish to anticipate the legislative changes that will be required arising from the budget announcements for obvious reasons, he is correct that both a social welfare Bill and a finance Bill must be passed. In addition, as the Deputy is aware, there is a need for an appropriations Bill in the normal way to ensure that payments can be made into the 2011 period. In addition, any other legislative enactments that arise out of the budget announcements obviously also must be prepared, drafted, got ready and passed. My point to the Deputy is that it is on the basis of fulfilling all of these requirements and giving certainty to the decisions which are taken and which are ratified by the House. The Deputy then asked me what is that timeline. While I do not have to hand the exact timeline, I assure the Deputy that it all will be done with due urgency and proper procedures, not in the normal way but as quickly as possible. I am not in the business of using this situation for any personal regard for myself or any personal consideration for the Government.

Moreover, on the question of the passing of the budget, I believe it has been stated, both in terms of external and internal confidence in the country, that the greatest statement of confidence we could make is to adopt such a budget with the correction of the magnitude of which the Government is speaking. It is a matter of personal responsibility for all of us to decide if the country is to put through the budget or not.

Of course, I recognise political differences between us on many issues. I do not question — although it was questioned of me and never withdrawn — the motivation of people as they look to the national issue. This is a matter of national importance to us all, for the country, for our future and for the future of everyone. I am saying that openly. We have to discharge our duty. We will do that and we will come to the House with the budget. I am hoping there are sufficient people in the House to see that it is in our national interest to ensure that the budget is passed.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

It is important that we have clarity and stability in budgetary matters and in the political life of the country. However, the Taoiseach has brought anything but clarity to this matter in his replies, both to Deputy Kenny and to myself.

It is not in the country's interest that the budgetary process be prolonged until the end of March. It is not in our interest that we have a three to four month period of instability, doubt and lack of clarity as to whether or not the budget is to go through. The budgetary process is not completed, as the Taoiseach knows, until the Finance Bill is enacted. Last year, that was done at the end of March.

I asked the Taoiseach his intention, with regard to the Finance Bill in particular. I presume the other legislation, such as the Appropriation Bill, will be passed before Christmas. Last year, the Social Welfare Bill was passed before Christmas. It is not acceptable or in anybody's interest that the budgetary process be strung out for three or four months. Uncertainty and instability for that length of time is not in the country's interest. Deputy Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he would bring forward the date of the budget. He declined to do so. I ask him to tell us clearly when he sees the end of the process. When does he envisage the Finance Bill being completed?

My second question is the one I asked the Taoiseach earlier and to which he has not responded. He has told the House a number of times that the constitutional responsibility for bringing forward and putting through a budget rests with the Government. Given the announcement made by the Green Party yesterday and the statements made by some Independent Deputies, does the Taoiseach consider that he has a sufficient majority on his side of the House to put through the budget and the legislation that goes with it?

The Taoiseach

First, the budget is being introduced on 7 December for the valid reasons I have given. It is not because I am trying to be difficult. There are valid reasons for that date. It is also the earliest time a budget can be brought to the House, given all the circumstances we face.

Deputy Gilmore's second point related to the timescale for the completed enactment of all the legislation needed arising from budgetary announcements, which I cannot anticipate or indicate to the House at this point. I would expect that we should have everything completed in the month of February. That would be my hope.

Deputy Joan Burton

Would that be the end of February?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Gilmore asked me to give an indication. He suggested April or May or that the process would take four months. I do not anticipate that.

Deputy James Reilly

Just as the Taoiseach did not anticipate the IMF coming in.

The Taoiseach

I am trying to be frank. I am not playing games. Deputy Gilmore has asked my opinion and I am giving it. That is what I think is a realistic timescale for the legislative measures that have to be taken. My view is that they will be completed in the month of February. We will continue to work through these issues in the proper way. It is important that we get this job done and that we focus on the budget to be brought forward.

Finally, Deputy Gilmore asked if there would be support for the budget. I believe there will. The House knows and understands the situation. I thank the leaders of the main Opposition Parties for the spirit in which this information was received. Official advice and confirmation of the situation, in terms of the seriousness of what we need to do in the present situation, is available to both Opposition leaders. I ask everyone to reflect on that and I thank everyone for the calm and considered manner in which we have had this discussion.

An Ceann Comhairle

That concludes Leaders' Questions.