Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 31 Mar 2011

Vol. 729 No. 1

Adjournment Debate

Census of Population

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I wish to express the strongest concern about CACI (UK) Limited, the company administering the census under way in the State. A census gathers comprehensive sensitive and personal information about every citizen and we should ensure this information is secured by those carrying out the census and that it is in the hands of a body that has no questions marks over its integrity. CACI has serious question marks over its character and integrity on two fronts.

First, the company is linked to CACI in Virginia, in the USA, which has defence contracts with the US military relating to interrogation. Its staff were involved in interrogation in Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. Serious allegations of torture have been made by victims, and lawsuits are pending against the company because of its involvement in the horrendous atrocities that took place in that prison. To avoid prosecution on these matters, CACI has claimed immunity in the US on the ground that it was working for the US military. On 11 September 2009, a US court of appeal ruled that the company fell under the US military chain of command and thus has government contractor immunity. In other words, a company that is under the American military chain of command according to the US courts is organising our census. I find it worrying that such a company will have access to the most comprehensive and sensitive information about our citizens.

When this issue emerged while a census was being conducted by the company in Scotland, the Registrar General accepted there was a serious problem because the USA PATRIOT Act 2001 gives the American Government the right to demand or to take, even without its knowledge, any information it wants from any American company. The Registrar General acknowledged this was a serious problem. If the US Government wants our census information, it can simply demand it of CACI. This is aside from the company's involvement in the horrors at Abu Ghraib prison and the fact that victims of that horror are trying to take legal action but are being blocked at every level.

Amnesty International and other human rights organisations have conveyed serious concern about CACI's human rights record. This is not acceptable. What guarantees will the Government give that this comprehensive sensitive and personalised information about every citizen in the State is secure? A declaration signed by the company means nothing in the context of the USA PATRIOT Act and the abominable record of CACI. What will the Government do about this serious issue?

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

I am Minister of State with responsibility for the Central Statistics Office, CSO. The 2011 census, which is being conducted on 10 April, is of significant national importance. The census results will give us the information to understand what Ireland needs for the future and will give a comprehensive picture of the social and living conditions of our people in 2011. Only a census can provide such complete detail. The results are essential tools for effective policy, planning and decision making purposes.

The census is a fundamental part of our national heritage and collective knowledge. Ireland has been conducting censuses of population since 1821. This enables us to track developments over a long period with considerable accuracy. The greatest strength of the census is the provision of detailed population figures at local level. They will help to identify likely demand for schools and health care facilities, areas of relatively high unemployment, the best location for new shops and so on. The more accurate the results, therefore, the better we can plan for the future and provide our citizens with the goods and services they need. The census is being, and always has been, conducted by the CSO, an independent statistical agency. It has always acted as an impartial voice for the country and plays a crucial role in public debate through the provision of a wide range of economic, social and environmental statistics.

As the Deputy has highlighted, CACI (UK) Limited has been awarded a contract related to the administration of the 2011 census. This includes the design and printing of the 2011 census forms, and the provision and on-site support of the hardware and software required for the scanning, capture and coding of the completed census forms. This contract was awarded following an open competitive procurement process run under EU tendering law which applies to all public bodies. CACI (UK) Limited was awarded a similar type contract for the 2002 and 2006 censuses, as well as winning the contract for census 2011. Indeed, the same company was also contracted for similar but more wide-ranging services for the census in Scotland in 2011. The company provided the best value for money for the Irish taxpayer and EU rules do not allow bidders to be excluded because they are not Irish companies.

The tendering process followed strict EU procurement rules. CSO commenced tendering for the supply of the census 2011 processing system in April 2009 and the tender was published on the e-tenders website and in the EU journal. Two tenders were received, including the one from CACI (UK) Limited. Both tenders went through three stages of evaluation. The evaluation team consisted of six senior CSO staff with an independent reviewer overseeing the process. The scoring model used to award the contract was lodged with the Department of Finance in advance of opening the tenders.

CACI (UK) Limited was awarded the contract on 30 June 2010 based on scores provided by the evaluation team. CACI (UK) Limited, the company working on the Irish census, has never provided services to the defence or intelligence sectors. Its business is solely in the supply of software solutions to public and private companies.

Some concerns have been raised about allegations made about the parent company of CACI (UK) Limited regarding human rights abuses in Iraq. These allegations have not been substantiated and investigations by CACI International and the US Government could not confirm them.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

What else would they say?

Deputy Paul Kehoe

CACI International has stated publicly that it does not condone, tolerate or endorse any illegal behaviour by its employees in any circumstances or at any time and the company has held in the past, and always will hold, itself to the highest ethical standards. It should be noted that CACI International, the American parent company of CACI (UK) Limited, has no involvement in the Irish census contract. It is not involved in any way in the preparation or delivery of systems for the Irish census. As a public body the CSO is fundamentally committed to ethical and proper conduct in all matters and would never consider having any dealings with a company convicted of a human rights abuse.

It is also important to note that confidentiality is the cornerstone of all work conducted by the CSO. All census 2011 forms will be processed in CSO census office in Swords where information is stored on a dedicated closed CSO network wholly owned by the CSO. All information collected in the census is treated as strictly confidential by the CSO and will be used for statistical purposes. This confidentiality is guaranteed by law.

The CSO is justifiably proud of its unblemished record in protecting the confidentiality of data. It is one of its top priorities to maintain this record. Every household in the State is legally obliged to participate in the census and the wealth of information that the census provides is available for use by everyone, free of charge. Census data is used by a wide of range of organisations and individuals from central and local government, to local community groups and to our enterprise development agencies working to attract foreign direct investment, entrepreneurs and jobs into Ireland. Everybody in this House should be encouraging every household in Ireland to participate fully in the census and to visit the census website to get a feel for enormous benefits the census information will bring to Ireland over the coming years.

Urban Renewal Schemes

Deputy Joe Costello

This matter is not unrelated to the debate earlier because NAMA was created to pick up the pieces from the bad debts created during the property speculation, the property bubble and the banks. I refer specifically to a number of areas in the city of Dublin, particularly Smithfield and the docklands area, because these were the subject of intense developments. Many property portfolios have been acquired by NAMA. The recent threat to the Light House Cinema is an example of what is going on, where NAMA has control of property, there is an absentee landlord and there are upwards only rents. Rent for the cinema has increased from €100,000 to €200,000 in the space of two years. The absentee landlord is based in Florida and is taking the matter to the courts to wind up the company for its inability to pay exorbitant rents.

Vast swathes of the country, and in particular urban areas in the city of Dublin, are lying idle. There are unoccupied, vacant premises, commercial and residential ghost properties. In many cases planning permission has been granted but the planning developments are partially finished or not started. A raft of areas in the docklands, including Spencer Dock, Alexander Place, Island Key, East Road, the Paper Mill, Ravensdale Road, Castleforbes and the Village Watchtower are ghost developments, partially constructed or partially occupied. Island Key has been at 37% occupation for the past number of years. The proposed headquarters of Anglo Irish Bank is a skeletal development with rusted cranes on the docklands. It is a monument to what the property bubble became. Will it ever be finished and who is in charge? NAMA has control over this. What is happening? It is derelict.

The situation in Smithfield is similar. This was once intended to be the cultural heart of the city of Dublin. The project was known as the heritage area rejuvenation project, HARP. We now have a lopsided development, with unoccupied residential units and unoccupied commercial units. In this case, an occupied commercial unit — the Light House Cinema — was threatened with a doubling of rent over two years. This is impossible to pay but the landlord is threatening to take the company to court to wind it up if it cannot pay.

The programme for Government states "We will insist on the highest standards of transparency in the operation of NAMA, on reduction in the cost associated with the operation of NAMA, and that decision-making in NAMA does not delay the restoration of the Irish property market." It is essential to get an early audit of the category and quantity of residential and commercial property. I am specifically concerned with urban areas. There is no property market at the present time and there cannot be one while NAMA is sitting on all of the property in the country. There is stagnation and we have artificial values on everything. NAMA is waiting for the market to develop. The market cannot develop unless NAMA moves. When will the Government, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, local authorities and NAMA get together to view the audit of property that NAMA now has under its control and devise a progressive mechanism to get it out into the marketplace so that we get the property market moving here and that in addition to the ghost estates we have at present we do not have derelict property that is vandalised and will give rise to huge problems as a result?

Deputy Paul Kehoe

I am informed by NAMA that, to date, it has acquired €72.3 billion in loans from the five participating institutions for which it has paid consideration of €30.5 billion in the form of Government-guaranteed securities. In addition, NAMA may acquire up to €3.5 billion in further loans over the coming months under the existing NAMA legislative scheme. These have been held up by litigation and by eligibility appeals.

NAMA advises me that it does not have a property portfolio in the docklands area and-or in Smithfield. NAMA has acquired eligible loans from the participating institutions and the property or other assets securing these loans remain in the possession of the debtor. It is therefore possible to speak on this topic in general terms only.

NAMA has acquired the property loans of approximately 850 debtors. The loans of the largest 175 debtor connections, accounting for €61 billion of debt, will be managed directly by NAMA. The rest will be managed by the institutions under delegated authority. NAMA has acquired eligible loans from the participating institutions and the property or other assets securing these loans remain in the possession of the debtor. In cases where enforcement action is taken against a debtor, NAMA may ultimately take control of the property or may appoint a receiver. In these instances, the property will be managed by a receiver who is the agent of the debtor but who acts in accordance with NAMA's instructions. To date, NAMA has appointed receivers who are acting under its instructions in a number of cases, including one of the areas mentioned by the Deputy. However, NAMA has not yet taken direct control of property and, as such, does not yet have a property portfolio.

NAMA has advised that it is currently reviewing business plans for the largest 30 debtors whose loans it has acquired and that the business plans of most other large debtors are currently at advanced stages of preparation. Debtors with loans in respect of property developments in the Smithfield and docklands areas of Dublin are included in the group of largest debtors, which means that many of these loans will be managed directly by NAMA.

A debtor's business plan essentially consists of individual asset plans for each of his properties. In some cases, NAMA will be unable to reach agreement with debtors as they will be unable to demonstrate overall viability. However, for those debtors who can prove viability, NAMA will agree specific asset plans for each of their assets, whether that involves disposal or completion, and so on. NAMA will not, as such, adopt an overarching policy towards any particular area or region. Rather, its policy will emerge only after its detailed review and its acceptance or otherwise of debtor asset plans for individual properties.

In determining a plan for any asset, NAMA will assess the supply and demand for similar assets in the same area or region. In particular, the agency will be very mindful of whatever planning policies have been set by the local authority in each instance. I am advised by NAMA that it is currently developing sectoral policies which will govern its strategic approach towards key subsectors in its loan portfolio. I understand, for instance, that a sectoral policy on the hotel sector is well advanced and this policy will have implications for how NAMA deals with debtors whose loans include facilities borrowed for the acquisition or upgrade of hotels. NAMA has acknowledged that hotels have been built with the wrong grading and in the wrong location. Ultimately, the long-term future of those hotels may not be as hotels and alternative uses will have to be found for them.

I am further advised by NAMA that as part of the business plan process and ongoing management of the debtor relationship, NAMA is actively engaging with debtors to get their assets to produce income and is approving decisions relating to the underlying security including lease agreements between the debtor and third parties where it makes commercial sense to do so. There is no reluctance on the part of NAMA to approve commercially viable agreements. Nor is there any enthusiasm on its part for approving commercially agreements that are not viable.

NAMA advises that it does not yet have a property portfolio but that when it does take control of properties, it will not adopt a strategy for any particular area or region. However the agency is presently developing policies which will govern its strategic approach towards certain key subsectors in its loan portfolio.

The Dáil adjourned at 6.45 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 5 April 2011.