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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 31 May 2011

Vol. 733 No. 4

Government and Oireachtas Reform: Motion

I move:

That Dáil Éireann:

recognising that:

the unqualified and urgent desire of the people of Ireland is to rebuild Ireland's political system into an effective, accountable, transparent, representative and participatory institution;

there is a critical need for immediate and meaningful Oireachtas and local government reform, to be done in tandem;

Dáil Éireann has a clear constitutional role to hold the Government to account;

there is a vast difference between this and the practical reality whereby the Government exerts its will over Dáil Éireann; and

the current party-political whip system has created an overtly centralised parliamentary decision-making mechanism, severely curtailing the freedom of individual TDs to cast their parliamentary votes in the interests of those they represent;

resolves to:

increase Cabinet accountability to the Dáil through:

the abolition of the party-political whip system to allow individual members to vote according to conscience and not instruction;

greater transparency in Cabinet decision-making and the decision-making of senior civil servants;

opposing any reduction in Dáil time for Taoiseach's and Ministers' questions;

reformatting Dáil debates, Ministers' and Taoiseach's questions to create a more dynamic and open forum in which discussion and debate takes place;

the timely publication of regulatory impact assessments to allow for full consideration of the pros and cons of proposed legislation;

providing legal advisory capacity to the Dáil;

-improve the committee function of the Oireachtas through:

increasing the powers of committees to allow for input prior to initial drafting of legislation; and

introducing compulsory powers for Dáil committees;

implement meaningful local government reform in advance of the 2014 local government elections.

I wish to share time with Deputies Pringle, Flanagan, Daly, O'Sullivan and McGrath.

During the general election the electorate limited the range of issues they raised. These were largely national issues and political reform emerged as one of the key questions. The economic crash that preceded the election had exposed that it was not just our economy that failed, but that the political system had failed to protect the country from that crash. That political system needs to be rebuilt if we are to respond adequately to the demands made.

While political reform emerged as an issue, it means different things to different people. Some were concerned with the cost of governance, others were concerned that the citizens had insufficient controls, while others complained about the empty Dáil Chamber and how the Dáil itself functions. Fundamentally, the desire was for change, and I believe this is a real opportunity that must be seized with both hands.

The business of politics should no longer be left to political elites. There was a clear understanding that politics does matter and that decisions impact on all our daily lives, sometimes in an adverse way. The values underpinning an effective political system must include democracy, transparency and accountability. New ways also need to be found to give control back to the citizen.

If we are to have meaningful reform at national level, then local government reform must occur in parallel. Otherwise, we will continue to have people elected to the national Parliament primarily dealing with local government matters unless we build a local government system that is effective, democratic, accountable and transparent. We simply cannot have Dáil reform without local government reform.

As a country, we are much better than that which is reflected in our political institutions. There are many things which work well and there are many things of which we can be proud. For example, at local level we can point to the credit union movement, to sporting organisations such as the GAA, to the level of community activity and the volunteering associated with that. The one common denominator is that they are built around a community or parish identity. There is a degree of trust at this level which shows that localism works well in the right place.

There were many complaints during the election campaign that there was too much localism in Irish politics, but the real problem is that the localism is in the wrong place. We need to face up to the fact that we do not have a local government system, rather a system of local administration. The county or city manager and his or her executive do not contest elections and are not directly accountable to the citizen, yet more and more power has been transferred to them since the State was founded. If we are to have a system that is truly democratic, that needs to be reversed in favour of the elected officials.

Our system of local administration also has a very limited set of powers and functions. If we are to change that, we need to build an effective system of local democracy and we need to transfer functions. Many of those functions that clog up the national system should be transferred to a new local government system. We also need to incorporate the plethora of informal quangos into a rebuilt local government system, where that is appropriate.

Ireland is in fact abnormal in that we have a very centralised system of governance. Much of that has occurred owing to the historic lack of trust between national and local government. It is time we grew up. We inherited our local government system and have been slow to change because of the lack of trust. The first local authority to which I was elected in 1988 was established under the Town Improvement Act 1854. That was Leixlip Town Commission which was the last town authority established and only one of four established in the history of the State. Our county council system was established in 1898. We have a regional authority system — that will come as news to many — which was put in place at the insistence of the EU as an oversight role for regional funds transferred to this country from the European Union.

We are not playing to our strengths. I wonder if the county council system is appropriate to our current needs. We have too often been told that counties are essential to our local identities, yet the interesting thing is they are far from uniquely Irish and were established between the 12th and 17th centuries so that the Crown could gain control under the county sheriff and grand jury systems. We need to go back to the place where trust is a strong value, which is at community or parish level. We need to create a district council system. That should be overlapped by a very small number — perhaps three — elected regional councils in which there would be procurement advantages. Such authorities could deliver, on a more strategic basis, water, waste management, strategic planning, transport provision, health care, education, sports and other leisure facilities at a regional level. These regional authorities would have a delivery function, but there would also be economies of scale where savings could be made.

This would not be the first time the county council system has been abolished or phased out. In Northern Ireland, often known as the Six Counties, these counties do not function as the primary level of local government, as there is a large number of district councils. Dublin County Council was broken up and replaced by three county councils, but the roof of identity did not fall in.

The Constitution is clear about the role of Dáil Éireann. It is not just the role of the Opposition, but the responsibility of the Dáil to hold the Cabinet to account. That simply cannot occur when a Whip system is in place. One has to question if that system is in fact repugnant to the Constitution.

Some fairly minor changes are being proposed by the Government, some of which are welcome and some with which I disagree. They are intended to be in place for the autumn session. These changes appear to tinker at the edges rather than represent a comprehensive set of reforms. I can foresee the Government parading them as one of its achievements in its first 100 days. I know a constitutional convention is proposed at some point in the future, but the desire for change is now. We must not miss this unique opportunity and what is proposed is much too modest.

I very much welcome the public appetite for reform. Developing a civic morality is essential if we are to build a republic of which we can again be proud. It is not enough to rely on our education system to teach civics. It must be linked to how we do things. Building a civic morality must become a political value. Our political system since the foundation of the State has outsourced many functions. Parts of our education and health systems were outsourced to the religious orders. We outsourced our moral values to the church, but even at that, the morality we outsourced was not about inequities within society but was confined to reproductive issues. Our system of planning was largely outsourced to the construction sector. We have laws that are called planning laws but are more about development and in some cases are simply developer laws. They were at best about curbing excesses rather than being visionary about how we construct our cities, towns and villages. After all that, we wonder why we have not developed a civic consciousness. We wonder why we do not feel a sense of shared pride about what we have built.

Just less than 100 years ago, bemoaning the lack of a civic consciousness and describing it as a national flaw, James Connolly wrote:

Someone has said that the most deplorable feature of Irish life is the apparent lack of civic consciousness. It is, indeed, strange that the people of a nation, which has shown indomitable determination in its struggle for the possession of the mere machinery of government, should exhibit so little capacity to breathe a civic soul into such portions of the machinery as they had already brought under their control.

He was speaking about the municipal authorities.

They were the only democratic institutions before 1916. One hundred years later, we must realise that if we are to change the political culture, we must begin with a set of values. We must map out a vision and plot a course to achieve that vision. Otherwise, we will miss the unique opportunity that has taken almost a century to present itself. I have pleasure in commending this motion to the House as an opening salvo from the Technical Group on political reform.

There has been a lot of comment within the House and in the media, and in the country generally, about the need to reform the workings of the Dáil and the political system in general. These include knee-jerk reactions such as the proposals to abolish the Seanad, change the single transferable vote system and decrease the size of the Dáil to 100 or fewer Members. None of these solutions will provide a political system that will work any better for the people of Ireland. What we need is full reform of our system at local, regional and national level.

Many commentators speak about the need to reduce the number of Deputies in our system, but the level of representation at national level is not out of line with those of our European partners. There is one representative for every 26,000 people in Finland, one for every 26,000 in Sweden and one for every 29,000 in Norway; in Ireland, we have one for every 27,000 citizens. The debate should be about how our system works, or does not work, as the case may be, and not about how many representatives we have. The debate about numbers just masks the need for a real debate about reform of the system.

This motion concentrates on reform of the work of the Dáil as the start of a debate about the reform that is needed in the entire system. We need real reform of the House and not just the minor rearrangements that have been proposed so far by the Government. The Whip system must be abolished. The Constitution does not recognise the party system that operates in the House. Every Member has an equal mandate and is elected to represent the people, not the party. Every Member should be free to vote with his or her conscience. Committees must be strengthened. Proposed legislation should be brought before a committee in the first instance, debated, and then drafted to reflect the views of the committee. Committees should have the power to compel witnesses and hold inquiries. All debates, no matter what the issue, should have a question-and-answer session with the relevant Minister, which can inform the subsequent debate. Ministers should be compelled to give complete and concise answers; this should be evaluated by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

These changes cannot be made in isolation. The entire representational system must be reformed. One of the most striking differences in our system compared to the rest of Europe is the level and development of local government that exists in other jurisdictions. We should not reduce the size of our national Legislature, if at all, without reform of local government. A local government system that has real revenue-raising powers and control of its own capital budgets is urgently required. Many Members of the House and commentators complain about the number of local issues that Deputies deal with, but the crux of the problem is that so much local decision making is done nationally. We should abolish the management system in local government and make councils truly responsible for local decision making. We should develop a regional government system that can provide oversight and ensure compliance with planning, budgetary and financial guidelines. The Houses of the Oireachtas can then concentrate on the legislation and oversight that is badly needed.

I would like to comment on the proposed abolition of the Seanad, another knee-jerk reaction. The way the Seanad is elected must change. We should do away with the crazy system of Senators being elected by local councillors and certain university graduates and appointed by the Taoiseach. We could elect the Seanad using a list system on the day of the European elections, with seats allocated from the list based on the European constituencies and proportionally to the strength of each constituency's European representation. All parties and Independents can be represented on the list. Then we must ensure the Seanad has real work to do and real legislative input, because we need an Upper House that can hold the Dáil to account.

This motion is the Technical Group's contribution to the start of a debate on real political reform, which must be ongoing and far-reaching to make sure we rebuild confidence in our system.

Reforming the Oireachtas will be a waste of time unless we reform the way local government works as well. If Ireland wants to do well, it needs places such as Roscommon, Leitrim, Wexford and Limerick to do well. Unless those pieces of the jigsaw are right, we cannot put the whole jigsaw together properly.

I got involved in politics and democracy because I thought that if I put my name forward and got elected, I would have the power to address issues of concern. From my experience as a member of Roscommon County Council, I would advise people with any drive, ambition or ideas to stay a million miles away from local government under the current system, because they would be wasting their time. Their input would not be taken into account because they would have no power to do anything.

That is unfair to all the good councillors.

There is no problem with the good councillors. In fact, the councillors would be even better if they had real powers.

I was the mayor of Roscommon County Council last year.

Congratulations.

At a meeting, when I asked for further details on our budget, the director of services threatened to walk out of the room because I was looking for too much information. Not only was I elected by the people, I was also elected by my fellow councillors as the head of the council, yet people were getting annoyed with me because I was looking for too much detail. It is a phenomenal type of democracy. In fact, it was a kick in the teeth.

Did the Deputy get the information?

I have suggestions about what we should do. I do not have as many suggestions about what we should do in Dáil Éireann because I have not been here very long and I am not an expert on it by any means. However, one thing I know a lot about is how local government does not work. These are my suggestions. For a start, we should reduce the number of county councillors around the country by 75%, because there are too many of them. Also, we should get rid of every single director of services in the country——

I hope the Deputy is not running for the Seanad.

——and every county manager in the country. We can then use a system set up through the Better Local Government programme which involves corporate policy groups and strategic policy committees. Through this system, we can give the people in local government real power to develop policies and drive ideas, and, in the case of Roscommon County Council, manage a budget of €70 million. The opinions and needs of people in our areas must be taken into account, because people in Dublin cannot possibly know what it takes to live in Roscommon, just as people in Roscommon will not know how best to do things in Limerick. That is the reason local governments should have increased powers.

Under the current system, people come to their local elected representatives and ask them to do things. Really, the best one can do for them is to promise that one will ask the people in the council to do what is required. One must explain that one really has absolutely no power — that would be a silly thing to do politically, but if one was to be honest, that is what one would say — but one will do one's best for them. However, if we changed the system so that councillors really did have the power, they could actually do something for their local citizens. A lot of money could be saved under this system because, under the current system, county councillors are without a shadow of a doubt incentivised to close their eyes and ignore waste. This is my experience and that of many other councillors I have spoken to. If, as a county councillor, one finds that the council is wasting money and one points it out to those who work there, instead of being pleased that one has found a way for them to save money, they get annoyed and take the angle that one is criticising them. They think one is saying they are doing something wrong — although that is basically what one is doing — but when one is reliant on them because one has no power to change things, one will be reluctant to do that.

I was not a smart political animal on the county council. From day one, I went in like a bull and pointed out that it was wasting money left, right and centre. My reward was that I was stonewalled.

My fellow councillors used to warn me to be careful not to mention that the council was wasting money because I would not get anything from them. That is an absolutely ridiculous system.

What I am proposing is a new system under which we have a directly elected mayor along with — in the case of Roscommon County Council — six elected councillors who sit in cabinet and make decisions. They decide how the money is spent. They debate whether to pull up a footpath for the fifth time in ten years or use the money to develop the local swimming pool. Give them the power to develop tourism and the agrifood sector because they are local and understand it, and leave people in Dáil Éireann — and the Seanad if one wants to hold on to it — to cross the t's and dot the i's on legislation. If this were done there might be a few more Members here today. The reason they are not here is because they are looking into potholes, ensuring ditches and hedges are cut and attending Johnny's funeral, but they are not here examining legislation because the entire thing is a mess. The programme for Government includes a promise to give local authority members more power. I hope the Government follows through on this but it would be a first.

This is an extremely timely discussion. Since the inauguration of the new Dáil we have had a huge amount of talk on this issue but very little substance. We have had optics, starting with the early reconvening of the Dail, shorter holidays and all the rest but let us be clear that these are an utter nonsense. This will have no impact whatsoever on improving participation or evolving democratic debate and decision making, not to mind initiatives which would involve the public more in our decision-making process. It is shocking for new Deputies to come in here and see the archaic system that operates, the empty Chamber and the reading out of prepared speeches which somebody else probably wrote and which the speaker has not seen before. Earlier, we saw it with a Minister who had not even read the replies to parliamentary questions prior to coming into the Chamber. He then had no ability to intervene in the debate. The system is in serious need of a radical overhaul.

We need to start on the outside. Let us consider the announcement made by the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, who two days prior to the election told people to vote for him and he would ensure registration fees would not be increased. Yesterday, he stated fees will be €2,000.

Government Members contested the election telling people they would renegotiate the deal, that it was an obscenity and that they would write down the value of the bonds. People voted in their droves for them and against Fianna Fáil and the Green Party, but what they got was the exact same thing as what they voted against.

I agree that we live in an elected dictatorship where every four years we have the right to put a cross beside somebody's name who promises all sorts of things under the sun but who will, quite likely, come in and do the opposite. One has no right to recall these people. Any meaningful system of democratic accountability must have within it the right to recall and an opportunity to take people out there and then——

Is that a prepared script?

——before their four years have ended when they have betrayed and lied to get elected. Otherwise it is a joke. We are implementing and arguing over policies against which the electorate has already voted, and the Government expects us to stay here for four years doing so but the public cannot take out the Government in the meantime.

Anarchy, lovely.

Well I hope people do come out on the streets, but that is a debate for a different day and presumably they will.

In the meantime, we have the issue of how people get elected to the Dáil and I want to look at a number of matters. The role of the Electoral Commission is important. We have had scandalous decision-making whereby towns have been partitioned and communities marginalised by an unelected electoral boundary commission. We need to have an impact and democratic accountability in this.

The Seanad needs to be dealt with. I agree with most of the points made with regard to local government. The public was able to exert pressure over councillors and local representatives and what did the Government do? It changed the regulations and abdicated all power so the status quo could continue and now effectively councillors have no decision-making powers whatsoever.

We have one of the most centralised systems in Europe or probably internationally. If we are really speaking about reform we must start at local level, and decision-making and accountability for health, education and public services should be devolved to more powerful local authorities, which is certainly not the case at present. The Seanad is an affront to people and taxpayers. Last week, people who had knocked on my door looking for a vote stood up and stated they had been elected to the Seanad to represent Sligo and Leitrim. They are failed Dáil candidates who see it as a stepping stone to this Chamber. It has no meat or substance and it should be abolished.

I warn the Government about some of the proposals it made to the Whips dressed up as Dáil reform. We must let it know it will not get away with this.

We will be taken out, I know.

It will not fool anybody with these proposals because the clear intent is to disenfranchise the Opposition, shield the Government from the limited scrutiny under which we have the ability to put it and stop its actions from being transparent. Every day, questions are not answered. There is either a prepared script or waffle for a minute or two so the Ceann Comhairle can cut across and state there is no time and that we must move on to the next question. This is not good enough. We need a Ceann Comhairle who insists that when a question is asked an answer is given. That would represent debate, dialogue and democratic discussion and evolvement of ideas. It is not the staid nonsense we have at present.

When one finds it difficult enough to have questions answered, the ideas put forward by the Government such as reducing the requirement for the Cabinet to be present, reducing discussion on the Order of Business and limiting it to a shorter period of time will make a very bad situation even worse. It is the complete antithesis of democracy and it is disgraceful. If the Government really wants to do something different it must start outside the Dáil at local authority level and move it up from there.

There are many committed, hard-working sensible Deputies throughout the House, in parties and not in parties who want to bring about change——

——not only for the sake of change but because change is needed. Our motion states that we want change to rebuild Ireland's political system into an effective, accountable, transparent, representative and participatory institution. Wisdom, common sense, insight, vision and a desire to be meaningful and effective are not confined to those in government, in this case Fine Gael and the Labour Party or, if I had been speaking a year ago, Fianna Fáil and the Green Party. It does not follow that as soon as one crosses the Chamber into government automatically wisdom and insight are instilled. Those in opposition are not lacking in those qualities. We need to move from the adversarial nature of politics so when an issue presents itself everyone is not only given the space and speaking time to articulate views on it but there is a genuine way to engage and for Government parties of whatever political persuasion to acknowledge they do not have the monopoly on wisdom and what is best for the country.

We are part of a very powerful system which has been dominant and continues to dominate, making it difficult to bring about change. Often, we express our frustration at the system and our apparent inability to change it. There is a genuine desire for change and we cannot allow the system to dominate this desire. As it stands, power is with the Cabinet. It is almost like that as soon as the elections are over and the Cabinet positions distributed, the rest of the Deputies can toddle off home. Other than being a thorn in the side of the establishment, valuable and all as that is, what is the role of Opposition Deputies if most of what is said in opposition is not taken seriously or in a way that can bring about real change?

It looks as though the new arrangements for committees are being presented as a fait accompli. I have been on committees all my life and the most effective committees are those with small numbers and a very definite focused piece of work. A committee must be meaningful. There must be a consistent interested membership with a real role. Committees need people with a genuine interest in its work and not there just to make up the numbers.

Some time ago, we had statements on committees and I wonder how much of that debate has seen its way into the new system of committees. The new committees proposed for the Dáil are heavy in numbers with wide briefs to cover a huge range of areas. This will be cumbersome and will prevent real work. They will be dominated by the Government parties and I want to know why the cherries are given to Government Deputies only. Is this democratic? There should be no remuneration for chairing. Adequate time for meetings is needed, scheduled to avoid interruptions by bells for votes. If people or Departments come before a committee there must be a valid reason with an outcome in mind. Each meeting should have an item on the agenda of actions decided that is followed up at future meetings. Our motion seeks an increase in the powers of committees to allow for input before the initial drafting of legislation.

In regard to Private Members' time, if I am a member of a political grouping or party which proposes a motion, I must automatically agree with it. If I am part of the grouping or party which tables the amendment, I must automatically agree with that. However, as an Independent, I have the luxury of considering the motion. I do not have a political party agenda and I can act based on the principles in which I believe — principles of social justice and fairness. In the past I have found myself agreeing with aspects of the motion and aspects of the amendment. I then face a dilemma when it comes to a vote. Surely, in Private Members' time at least, the party Whip system could be removed to allow for genuine debate.

In regard to questions, what is the point in having questions to the Taoiseach in one time section with the exact same questions later on? There is a need for space to question the Taoiseach but there needs to be a way to tackle the repetition. Questions to Ministers are vital with the right to supplementary questions and I would like that extended to matters on the Adjournment when the answer provided does not answer the question. We need more time for questions to the Taoiseach and Ministers and we need a topical issues section.

Why are questions taken on proposed legislation when a call to the Bills Office would elicit the same information? The danger is that because we have done something in the same way for so long, it is easier to keep going in that way rather than look at the efficiency or otherwise of it and try to bring about change.

I support what Deputy Luke ‘Ming' Flanagan said about local government. The next local government elections will be in 2014 so now is the time to get moving on that debate. I spent some months on Dublin City Council and I was always struck by the number of public servants at meetings, which were at double figures, and the number of public representatives, which was a single figure. I was amazed at times by the inefficiency of that system.

We come to the House to speak on legislation, statements and Private Members' time but what is the point if the Government has already made up its mind on them? Statements should be a way to develop policy on an issue.

In regard to reducing the number of Deputies, we should first look at the work of Deputies and the numbers will follow from that. The same should apply to the Seanad. Let us look at what it is supposed to do and how that can be done better before deciding to abolish it.

I was very fortunate to be a teacher for many years. I knew I was in a career in which I made a difference. I am not saying I was indispensable; I do not believe anybody is but I know I made a difference. I would like to be able to say in whatever time I spent here that I can make a difference but sometimes the system we have prevents that.

I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for the opportunity to speak on our Private Members' motion on Dáil reform and the urgent need for radical change. I compliment my colleagues in the Technical Group for once again leading in this important national issue and in this debate for the State and for our democracy. The last general election a few weeks ago was about change and new and fresh thinking. This motion is part of that debate. It is time to end the waffle and the talks about talks on Dáil reform and committees. Now is the time for action so let us get on with the job. Once again the Technical Group is the first out of the traps on this issue.

I urge all Deputies to seriously consider our motion and not to be afraid to speak out if they agree or disagree with it. They should put something on the table. So far, I have heard many interesting ideas and proposals. This Dáil reform debate is about our Parliament and country so let us get on with it.

Some people in this country want less democracy and I have concerns about them. Some people say we should put business people into Cabinet posts and into the top jobs in Irish politics. I wonder if they think they are running a business or a country and society. Many of these business people are part of the problem we have today so I would not rush into making such decisions. It might sound popular but there is nothing wrong with people learning their trade in the council and eventually ending up in Dáil Éireann.

It is important to put forward our own ideas in Private Members' time. In my manifesto at the last general election, I put forward proposals for Dáil and political reform. I was pleasantly surprised when I received much support for them on the doorsteps. For example, most people want to create a real democracy with accountability at every level. That is something I heard on the doorsteps. Most people asked if we would come up with a solution to some of the problems the country faced.

I differ from some of my colleagues but I was in favour of a more democratic and reformed Seanad rather than abolishing it. I said during the general election that we should transform the Seanad into a genuine forum for civic society within 12 months or if we were not going to do that, we should abolish it. We did not debate that proposal adequately. There is room for a more democratic second Chamber to keep an eye on the way the country is run.

Let us be very careful about winding down democracy, whether in city hall, Dáil Éireann or Seanad Éireann, because there are elements in society which will use it for other reasons. We should reform for efficiency and accountability but we must be very careful in how we proceed.

In regard to the Dáil, we should end the use of the guillotine to pass laws which have not been scrutinised. We should give Dáil committees powers to examine proposals for spending before it happens and to hold real inquiries by giving them the power to compel witnesses to give evidence and provide documents. I would also like to make senior public servants responsible for their decisions and actions. I am reminded of a principal running a primary school. Much of the time the buck stops with him or her in regard to the administration of, and issues in, the school. If anything goes wrong, he or she takes the hit and if something positive happens, he or she gets the credit. However, the principal is accountable and there is no reason this could not happen at the level of senior public servants. That is lacking at present.

I strongly favour bringing real transparency to the funding of political parties. Parties should publish their annual accounts. I would like a register and control of lobbyists, protection for whisteblowers, to make all appointments to State and public bodies and the Judiciary open to public competition and Dáil scrutiny and to ban any individual from being a director of more than three companies or public bodies. I urge the Minister to look at those proposals. A Government with an open mind would look at some of these proposals.

I would like an urgent review of company law to ensure white collar criminals are brought to justice, although the process has begun here. We should bring back the original Freedom of Information Act. We should consider seriously these proposals.

In regard to the debate on city and county councils, I was elected to Dublin City Council in 1999 and like many contributors to this debate, I was amazed by what I saw. However, I also learned much about the importance of local government. We need more radical and efficient local government. Local government plays an important role and I fully support many of the views expressed on these issues.

In regard to the debate on the committees, during my first term, I served on the Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights where much work was done on the Barron report and the disability legislation. I worked with the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch. Much good work has been done by committees and let us not forget to say that. However, that does not mean we are not up for reform and change. I fully support the proposals from many of my colleagues. There is much potential for these committees to get on with the job.

The Government should be a little more inclusive and democratic when it comes to dishing out the jobs on these committees, in particular in regard to Members from the Technical Group. It is important there are strong independent voices on these committees to reflect the democratic nature of this House. If we are serious about change, that is an option.

In regard to changes to Dáil structures and in the Chamber, I fully support some of the proposals on Dáil reform put forward by my colleague, Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan, in particular questions to the Taoiseach and Ministers. I also fully support the unqualified and urgent desire of the people to rebuild Ireland's political system into an effective, accountable, transparent, representative and participatory institution. There is a critical need for immediate and meaningful Oireachtas and local government reform. Dáil Éireann has a clear constitutional role to hold the Government to account. I urge Members to support our Private Members' motion and I thank my colleagues for bringing forward some sensible suggestions.

I propose to share time with the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes.

That is agreed.

I move amendment No. 2:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

notes that the new Government is committed to extensive political and Dáil reform as outlined in the programme for Government;

commends the Government for introducing immediate changes such as:

a reduction in remuneration for the Taoiseach and Government Ministers;

new arrangements in relation to ministerial transport to reduce its cost and to free up Garda resources; and

radically overhauling arrangements for appointing senior civil servants by the Top Level Appointments Committee, TLAC, in order that the chairperson and the majority of TLAC members will be drawn from outside the public sector;

commends the Government for agreeing to produce vital legislation shortly to:

set up the Constituency Boundary Commission as a first step to reducing the number of TDs;

reduce the Presidential election spending limit;

introduce a six month time limit to hold by-elections; and

effectively ban corporate political donations, lower personal political donation thresholds and increase transparency in respect of all political donations;

notes that the Government intends to prioritise further proposals for reform such as:

establishing a constitutional convention to consider wide ranging issues for political and constitutional reform;

extending the Freedom of Information Acts 1997 to 2003;

introducing whistleblowers legislation;

establishing an independent fiscal council;

referenda proposals to give Oireachtas committees powers of investigation and for the abolition of the Seanad; and

enhancing the democratic process by involving Members at an earlier stage of the legislative process via Oireachtas committees, particularly before Bills are published;

recognises that the local government system has an important role in enhancing the welfare and quality of life of communities and can make a substantial contribution to the national recovery effort;

endorses the extensive commitments in the programme for Government to renew and develop the local government system;

acknowledges the progress made to date in improving efficiency in the local government sector and the establishment of an independent implementation group to implement relevant recommendations of the local government efficiency review group report:

notes the intention to publish a policy statement outlining proposals for the development and reform of local government; and

calls on parties and members in the Dáil to engage constructively with ongoing discussions on Dáil reform with the aim of implementing a package of reforms in the House from September.

As Minister with responsibility for public expenditure and reform, I am pleased to have the opportunity to take part in this debate to highlight the challenges we face in the area of reform, some of which have been referred to by previous speakers, and the actions the Government has taken to date and intends to take. We have been in office for less than three months and the reforms we have laid out are the most radical ever proposed by an incoming Government.

Debates during Private Members' business are often occasions of disagreement between the Government and the Opposition, but on this occasion I am struck by the extent to which I am in agreement with the Opposition motion. I agree that the unqualified and urgent desire of the people is to rebuild Ireland's political system into an effective, accountable, transparent, representative and participatory institution. I agree that there is a critical need for immediate and meaningful Oireachtas and local government reform. I agree that Dáil Éireann has a clear constitutional role to hold the Executive to account and must be given the capacity to do so. The Government is committed to overhauling the way government works. We are committed to ensuring the Executive is held to account and seen to be held to account.

Where I disagree with the motion — let us get this out of the way — is in its reference to the party Whip system. Political parties are, at their heart, alliances of like-minded people, as Deputy Clare Daly will know, who agree to work together in pursuance of shared goals and visions. We organise publicly, campaign publicly and put our agreed, negotiated platform within our organisations before the people in general elections in the same manner as Independent candidates. In fact, not all Independents are as comprehensive in the packages they put forward. The people offer us support on that basis. When no single party commands a majority in the House, parties work together in the public interest to forge a common platform.

We take the party Whip voluntarily and with pride to work together in the common interest. The Technical Group works together as a unit and has presented this motion as a unit, but its members' analysis of the issue is quite varied. One Deputy who spoke tonight wants to abolish the Seanad, another wants to reform it; one Deputy wants to retain the local government system, another wants to fire 75% of local councillors——

Genuine debate, how shocking.

One Fine Gael Deputy wants us to default on our debt.

I listened to the Deputy with some respect and value his views.

The Minister interrupted me.

I am sorry, I did not realise the Deputy was so touchy. The Deputies opposite have a range of views. Without a party Whip system, how would we determine anything? They cannot all be right in their views. Any political group must have a negotiated common platform. That is how it works.

Ireland is in great difficulty and we must make our system of government work. Politics is not simply about decisions that accord with our personal consciences, important as that is. We must make decisions based on priorities, the availability of resources and the views of others. It would be a great luxury if we could always be on the side of what was popular. That would be a lovely position to be in. In reality we must accept some decisions because they help to progress other issues. In other words, politics and governance are about give and take, the creation of majorities and the building, as far as possible, of consensus. Political parties do not just reflect that process; they arose historically from that process of political evolution and debate.

The programme for Government contains the most ambitious and far-reaching agenda for political reform ever put before this House. It must be ambitious if we are to restore the people's trust and confidence in the institutions which serve them. The Government's commitment to reform was made clear by the decision to establish a Department of public expenditure and reform with a Minister dedicated to driving the reform agenda. On 20 May I published the Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011 which will provide the legislative framework for the formal establishment of the Department. That Bill will come before the House later this week. For the first time, functions and responsibility in regard to the reform and modernisation of the public service will be reflected on a statutory basis. On enactment of the legislation, in my role as Minister with responsibility for public expenditure and reform, I will have responsibility for all functions currently vested in the Minister for Finance in respect of the public service, including superannuation, remuneration, the appointment of staff and terms and conditions of employment for all staff of public service bodies. At the same time, responsibility for the management of overall departmental expenditure, including the management of the annual Estimates process and general sanctioning powers in regard to expenditure, will transfer to me from the Minister for Finance.

Our agenda for reform is twofold: first, to change the overall context in which the Government operates in order that public business is done in public; and, second, to change the way the Government operates to make it effective, democratic and accountable. The Government, as part of its commitment to the electorate, undertook to provide leadership and decisiveness. Where action is required, decisions will be taken and implemented.

As noted in the Government amendment, progress has been made in a number of areas in the few short weeks we have been in office. At its very first meeting the Government decided voluntarily to reduce ministerial salaries. The salary of the Taoiseach was reduced to €200,000, a reduction of 6%. Reductions were also applied to the salaries of other members of the Government and parliamentary officeholders whose salaries have been tracked to those of Ministers in the past. On the more general issue of the appropriate level of senior pay in the public service, I am reviewing the current provisions, including those for current incumbents, and will be bringing proposals to the Government shortly and subsequently to the House.

The Government has also agreed new arrangements for transport and staff support for Ministers in line with the commitments we gave to the people in our election manifestos and the programme for Government. The Government recognises that in reforming the public service reform must happen from the top. It is essential that the right people are in place to take on the complex challenges the country faces now and in the future. In line with the commitment given in the programme for Government, the structure of the top level appointments committee, TLAC, has been radically overhauled. The Government has decided that the membership of the TLAC will be increased to nine by the appointment of five external members from outside the Civil Service. All final interviews will be conducted by sub-panels of the committee, each comprising two Civil Service and three external members and chaired by one of these external members. New approaches to attract stronger external candidates are being considered, while recognising that suitable candidates will have to undergo a competitive process.

Considerable work is ongoing within my Department to advance the commitments given in the programme for Government in regard to the freedom of information legislation first introduced by the Labour Party and Fine Gael in government and substantially weakened in the years we were out of government. I expect to submit initial proposals to the Government shortly in regard to how these matters will be substantially progressed. It is important that the Government gives these complex issues the consideration they merit and that all Ministers are consulted on the range of issues which will amount to the effective repeal of the 2003 amending legislation brought forward by the Fianna Fáil-led Government and which largely emasculated the original Act.

In regard to protections for whistleblowers, the Government has laid out its commitments in the programme for Government and they are ambitious. The programme states the Government will introduce whistleblowers legislation, simpliciter. I confirm that this commitment will be enacted as quickly as we can and that those who speak out against wrongdoing or cover-ups, whether in the public or the private sector, will enjoy protection. I know how important this is as I appeared before the High Court and the Supreme Court in an effort to dislodge the source of information given to me as a Member of this House in respect of allegations of wrongdoing. Also in the spirit of transparency, we will introduce a statutory register of lobbyists and rules concerning the business of lobbying. It is important that those engaged in lobbying be known, along with the people and causes they represent.

Another priority for urgent action is the establishment of an independent fiscal advisory council. This is a key aspect of budgetary reform that the Government is committed to implementing under the terms of the programme for Government. This is included under the EU-IMF programme of financial support. The Minister for Finance will bring forward proposals very shortly in this regard, including those relating to membership of the council, its role and its work arrangements. It is very important for the effectiveness of the council that it is seen to be independent and the establishment of its independence will inform the arrangements we will put in place. The intention is that later this year, the Government will bring forward a fiscal responsibility Bill, which will give legislative support to the council and its work. The Bill is likely to include other aspects of the fiscal reform agenda including rules on expenditure.

This Government has indicated the priority it attaches to political reform. The programme for Government has already set out some of the priority areas touched on by the Opposition motion. I welcome this opportunity to bring these priorities to the attention of the House. It is important that an effective Parliament has an effective committee system. To this end, the Government is proposing reforms to the committee system. These reforms are centred on making committees more relevant. We will strengthen Dáil engagement with the European Union by ensuring that all Oireachtas committees share the burden of dealing with EU policies and legislative proposals. We will do this by deepening the involvement in EU matters of the committees that shadow the work of Government and we will strengthen the Dáil's capacity to investigate matters of public interest. The Abbeylara judgment of the Supreme Court limited the powers of Oireachtas committees to conduct investigations that might attribute blame to identifiable individuals. It is the strong view of this Government that Parliament should have the power to conduct such investigations. Therefore, it is a matter of urgent priority that we hold a constitutional referendum to seek the people's support to reverse the Abbeylara judgment and enable committees to carry out investigations.

We propose the establishment of an investigations, oversight and petitions committee, structured along the lines of the Committee of Public Accounts, which works so well. This committee will have the specific function of addressing citizens' concerns as they relate to public services or public administration generally. The committee should be the formal channel of consultation between the Oireachtas and the Ombudsman and responsible for ensuring her recommendations are acted upon. We will give committees the power to introduce legislation so that introducing legislation is not the exclusive prerogative of this side of the House. We will give it more power to scrutinise legislation. We will further enhance the role of legislative committees by providing that every fourth sitting week will be a committee week. Committees will not be buried in this House but will be seen to act as full scrutiny committees in the full glare of publicity in this Chamber.

In the time available I have only been able to touch on some of the major reform agenda. Local government reform, which informed many of the contributions in the Chamber, will be dealt with by my colleague, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government tomorrow. He will set out the reform agenda on local government. I conclude by sincerely acknowledging the contributions of Members opposite. Deputy O'Sullivan was a rock of sense once again. We should act on much of what is said on the Opposition benches. The Government has no monopoly on wisdom and it is my intention to be open to constructive proposals for reform from the Opposition if they add value and are in keeping with the agenda we have, in common, to make this House and our institutions more effective.

I second the motion proposed by the Minister. I welcome the opportunity to debate this crucial issue. I am clear on the mandate the people gave our party, me and others. In the first instance, it is a mandate to sort out the dreadful economic mess and legacy but, equally, it is a mandate for genuine and radical political reform in this country. If we are to introduce all the elements in the amendment tabled by the Minister, we will have a democratic revolution in this country. That will take a lot of work over a four or five-year period because much of the change is constitutional. However, much of it is parliamentary and legislative change, which can happen. If we are to fix this broken country, in terms of the economic struggle we face, we must lead on the question of radical political reform in this House and outside it.

Two weeks ago, along with many other colleagues, I was privileged to attend the State funeral of Dr. Garret FitzGerald. It was a wonderful occasion in many respects, not because of the dignitaries in attendance but because of the people in attendance. As Ministers and Ministers of State travelled from Donnybrook to Shanganagh in a bus, it was extraordinary to see that at every major intersection on the road, thousands of people came to clap and acclaim Dr. FitzGerald. They marked out territory that this was a man who had done the State great service. I thought that was the natural, ordinary respect people should hold for their politicians in any republic. That case is an exception because the great majority of people in this country do not hold politicians in respect, nor do they hold the political system in respect because of what happened to this country. Our task, collectively, over the course of this Dáil, which we are privileged to be in, is to do what we can to improve the standing of politics in this country in the same way as those people who stood and clapped the remains of Dr. FitzGerald two weeks ago recognised his enormous contribution to life in this country. I know the mandate we have to fix this country and to fix our broken political system.

The numbers on the Government side of the House mean that approximately two thirds of the membership of Dáil Éireann support the two biggest parties and the two Government parties. Every voice must be heard, on Government and Opposition sides. We should encourage the fact that people speak out. The Government itself must act as a collective being. Collective responsibility is there for all to see in the Constitution. However, those behind me in both parties have a responsibility to speak out as they see fit and to take a stand as they see important. They are members of political parties and have signed up to our programme for Government but there is space to have their voices reflected within political life. I spent 14 years in opposition and what is stifling about this place is the over-centralised control of the Executive. We must address that. This Parliament is one of the few in the world where the Punch and Judy performance occurs every day, pretending and exaggerating matters of no consequence as a cheap line for headlines on the news at six o'clock.

That happens on both sides. If we are really serious about constructing a new politics in this country, we must see the central role of a parliament. This Parliament has never stood up for itself, and it has always been seen to be a plaything, as it were, of the Executive. That idea must be broken down if we are really serious about advancing political reform. Every voice is important and every Member has a role to play.

One of the great opportunities we have is the fact that close to 50% of the Members in this House are new. I hope they will bring an opportunity to reform this place in a measured and constructive way rather than through a political polemic used by people on television screens because they believe it sounds trendy and cool. That is our ultimate task if we are serious. If we are not serious and we are just play-acting, that is fine, and the public will see through that kind of hogwash. A serious attempt will have a role for each Member, and those who are new in particular, as they have much to offer.

The beef tribunal occurred in this country, with the enormous costs attached to it, for a solitary reason as outlined by Judge Hamilton in his final report. It was because Ministers did not answer questions honestly in Dáil Éireann. The most important function of every Deputy, either on the Government side or that of the Opposition, is the right to ask a question and properly interrogate a Minister. Our system is far too weak because the Ceann Comhairle cannot direct a Minister to answer a posed question or intervene because the time is set out in intervals between the Government and Opposition. The most fundamental reform, as far as I and the Government are concerned, relates to parliamentary questions and how to utilise that time.

The time for these questions is allocated but we would have ten times as many people attending Question Time if questions were taken only if Members were here. In other parliaments, members are called based on whether they are within sight of the speaker rather than the lottery system which developed here over the years. More people would attend if they did not know whether their questions would be answered.

We should immediately introduce such a process because people would attend the Chamber if they believed they could participate in a debate; currently the debate is time-allocated and takes place between key players such as the Opposition spokespersons and Ministers. If the lottery system were abolished and questions were taken from the Order Paper with the people present in the Chamber, there would be 50 or 60 people present looking to contribute to the debate. That is an important question for the Opposition and Government sides of the House if we are to be honest about the process. It is crucial that we change the system for parliamentary questions.

One of the best innovations in the three months I have been part of the Government is that all major statements on policy occur in Dáil Éireann. That has not happened in the last decade, and I was a vocal critic of the fact that major Government announcements in the past decade emerged in the Government's press section at an appointed occasion outside the House. A debate may have occurred a week later, which is absolutely outrageous. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, made the announcement on bank restructuring plans in Dáil Éireann. The Speaker in Westminster would chastise a British Government for making a statement outside the House of Commons. As such, we have started well with this and every Minister must continue in that vein. There should be no more press conferences to the great and good in order to manufacture news. We should have statements in the House and proper questioning from colleagues on all sides. We have begun this process and should continue with it.

Too often there is a kind of high-handed attitude from Members opposite about those people outside parties and political parties. One of the great strengths of this country, and a reason we emerged from civil war so quickly, is the ability to have moderate politics in our country. If we are really serious about recognising the role of political parties, we must encompass that within the Constitution. There is no reference to political parties within Bunreacht na hÉireann, but they play a vital role in the country.

I do not object to anybody being an Independent or outside a party but, equally, I ask them not to object to members of my political party, who make extraordinary sacrifices and come to extraordinary compromises because they believe in a greater good. They believe that in coming together in solidarity behind a number of simple, discernible objectives, they can advance their political cause. There is a kind of condescending attitude among some, although not all, Independents about political parties. Their argument is they serve no useful purpose and are all grubby. That is a patronising view which is not based on fact. One of the great strengths of this country has been our political party system and the way it can change so radically, as we saw in the last election. We should not underestimate that process and we must give it constitutional recognition within Bunreacht na hÉireann.

One of the most fundamental reforms outlined in our motion is a complete rethink on the Abbeylara judgment. The high point of Irish parliamentary processes was the late former Deputy Jim Mitchell's Committee of Public Accounts. With that process, the late former Deputy and that committee produced a report, investigated the work and got money back for the public without the lawyers being there. This was done within six months and there was a genuine sense of public satisfaction. There was a problem of the non-payment of deposit interest retention tax exposed in the media but we did not hive it off to a tribunal or commission of investigation. We dealt with the issue head on and established a committee on a non-partisan basis that worked as a group and quickly deduced a solution to get the money back and produce recommendations.

That was a high point to which we must return. It seems that as long as parliamentary committees cannot make findings of fact against individuals, we will be in a very difficult space. That is why it is crucial for us to revisit the Abbeylara judgment and give power to Oireachtas committees to make findings of fact relating to individuals and events which have some meaning. That will mean that in future we will not have to hive off significant issues of public concern to tribunals of investigation which have become unsatisfactory. That is understandable because of associated costs. To do this we must change the way committees work, and a new internal dynamic is required where people can leave party political baggage outside in coming to a conclusion. That task will be difficult to achieve but we must pursue it. Committees will be central in a changing role.

It is crucial to have fewer committees and that they become meaningful. I fully agree with the Deputies opposite who argued there should be absolute scrutiny of budgets in advance by committees so that alternative proposals of expenditure can be examined. This is in preference to the "Punch and Judy" process that goes on here on a daily basis. There should be genuine work done with serious consideration of issues rather than a polemic, which is just a narrative used for commentary rather than serious work. It is crucial that we have fewer committees and that we change the way they work.

We are a small country and we are over-governed. There would be no need for Seanad Éireann if this House did its work and we had the kind of reforms outlined in our amendment to the motion. We would not need a bicameral system if everybody in the House contributed to the parliamentary life of the country. That is the task ahead of us.

We can consider some of the biggest decisions in the past decade in the House. They were not taken as a result of initiative from Members but rather because the Government plucked an idea from the sky. Decentralisation is an example. That idea would be rammed through the House, leading to appalling consequences. One could also look at the bank guarantee scheme, which was rushed through the House without proper consultation, consideration or the time to examine matters properly. That is the legacy of the past, which is pretty rotten but which others will defend, as is their right. It is also a legacy of how bad this Dáil and parliamentary democracy became and we must never allow it again.

That is why it is crucial we implement these reforms on a cross-party basis. I agree with Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan that it should be on the basis of agreement but we need to act swiftly. This is one route out of the difficulties we face.

I propose to move our amendment.

The Deputy may refer to the amendment but it cannot be moved at present.

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle takes a technical approach. I will always go by his advice.

I dislike it when people make broad statements without any basis. I do not know the basis for the Minister of State's claim that decentralisation was not a good thing. I assure him that if he checks with the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Innovation, Deputy Perry, and the other Deputies from counties Sligo and Mayo, they will report few downsides to decentralisation but a number of upsides. Nobody has shown me a shred of evidence that the decentralisation of a significant section of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs caused it to operate less efficiently than was the case when it was based in Dublin. Most people did not realise it had moved other than to note that its telephone number had changed. The Gaeltacht section of the Department has always been in Furbo and if the Minister of State really believed decentralisation was a bad idea, why does he not reverse the decision? He knows his rural Deputies will quickly tell him that decentralisation provided for more balanced decision making because those who made the decisions lived in different parts of the country. It also provided efficient services and employment opportunities to people within their own regions rather than centralising staff in one city.

There is agreement in the House on the need for reform but beyond that it is difficult to reach a consensus. I agree, however, that the time has come for action. For too long the obsession with reform has been about the time put in not the content or ability to hold meaningful debates. Debates in this House are mainly about reading scripts rather than interaction between Members. Unfortunately, this debate will probably be no different. The many hours spent on Second Stage debates and statements have little influence on policy and are often pro-forma and repetitive. Having been on both sides of the House and having tried to take on board good suggestions I found committee debates and the Committee Stage of Bills to be much more productive than the plenary sessions. The era of the sound bite has added to our difficulties because it is sometimes realised there is greater political reward for a short dramatic sound bite than for the hard slog of, for example, committee work on Bills and examination of policy.

The motion proposes to abolish the whip system. I acknowledge that the party system has no constitutional basis and only limited legislative basis. Parties are the voluntary coming together of people who share common aims and ideals. They are a recognition that by working together people can achieve a lot more than working individually. In the old days, if one wanted to push-start a stalled car, it was preferable to recruit three or four people than to seek the assistance of the strongest person. Working together, three or four ordinary people could achieve a result that the strongest could not achieve alone.

The House operates on a majority basis and to get anything changed requires the majority of Members to be in favour and, therefore, work to an agreed common purpose. The reality is that being a member of a party is like pooling sovereignty. In return for agreeing to accept majority rule within the party a member has a direct input into the policy debate from an early stage. Contrary to popular myth I have seen many proposals from Government being dropped or changed radically because of the input of backbenchers in the party. The idea that party members act like sheep is far from the truth. In order to proceed, however, party members accept the majority decision once the debate is over. Deputies similarly accept that the majority decisions of the Dáil stand until they are changed by a new majority decision.

Parties also facilitate organised specialisation so that all topics and proposals can be covered. It is not possible for an individual Deputy to be briefed on everything that happens in the House. Independent Deputies concentrate on a few areas of policy but if all the Members of the Dáil were independent the danger is that some subjects might not be covered at all. The assertion that party Members vote by instruction is incorrect. Party Members vote following approval by their peers in the parliamentary party, a process in which they have full input. If I was asked to do something that was against my conscience, I would of course refuse to do so. This has never happened in my time in politics but I could not rule out the possibility that it could happen. I would not, for example, vote for the re-introduction of the death penalty. Thankfully, however, I can never see Fianna Fáil going down that route.

The Whip system has limited the role of professional lobbyists in our political system. In my years in office I can count on one hand the number of professional lobbyists who approached me. It was well known that I was wary of such groups and I always believed that if an organisation had a point it should approach me directly. It was also well known that the more marginal a person was in society the quicker and better the access he or she would get because it is important to ensure that the voices on the edge are heard.

By having a Whip system the ability of powerful interests to bully or buy off individual politicians is severely limited, the bigger picture can be taken into account and the local politician in a party is protected when a decision has to be taken that is good for society but might have local downsides. I recall a politician articulating this issue very well when he said that we all want the refuse removed from our houses and workplaces but none of us want the waste processing facility. We all want mobile telephones but we do not want the masts near our houses. We all want electricity but we do not want the pylons across our countryside. This is the ultimate dilemma but politicians have to take a wider view by balancing the well-being of the individual with the good of society.

If we want to get an understanding of what a Whipless Dáil would be like, we should look across the sea to the United States of America. How many in the Technical Group have looked aghast at the powerful interests lobbying votes in the US Houses of Congress? How many have decried the power of the gun lobby to intimidate or even buy votes to ensure that gun control is not introduced? Our system of parties is not perfect and while all systems can lead to abuse, I would be slow to change it radically in light of experiences abroad and certainly not until all the unintended consequences were teased out.

I was somewhat taken aback by the reference in the motion "curtailing the freedom of individual T.D.s to cast their parliamentary votes in the interests of those they represent". First, Members can vote any way they wish and everybody is free to do so. Many times Independent Members agree wide-ranging packages with Governments. They even agreed this motion, while operating like a political party, and I am sure not every Independent Member agrees with every word. Like many things in life, it is a compromise. However, what shocked me about that reference was the notion that our job is not to represent all the people but to vote in the interests of those we represent. That is a scary thought.

I always thought our first obligation as national politicians was to all the people and not to one section. We have a duty to those who elect us in our constituencies but if the conflict is between the national good and local good, as national politicians, we must take the good of all of the people into account while protecting the interests of the various constituencies we represent. I find the reference to "those they represent" alien in the context of where I come from in politics, as I always thought I represented the people of Ireland no more, no less.

I would like one other simple reform to the business of the House, which I mentioned last week during ráitis ar an Ghaeilge. This courtesy should be extended but we have a difficulty with something very simple for some reason. As a Minister, I attended European Council meetings and the European Parliament. In the Parliament, those who speak in a minority language are not ignored. Members who are sitting in the Parliament do not refuse to listen to what these colleagues have to say. When people do not understand the language of the speaker, they use the translation system.

One of the reasons that Irish is rarely spoken in the House is Members who do not understand the language refuse to listen to colleagues who use it and prefer in many cases to ignore what they are saying rather than wear the headphones provided. That is a great discourtesy to Members who speak Irish, to the minority in the country who use the language on a daily basis and to the constitutional position of the Irish language. People seem incapable of accepting that it is another language and, like all other languages, it should be treated in the same way. I am sure there is no other multilingual Parliament where on a consistent basis members who do not understand one of the official languages refuse to listen through the translation system when it is spoken.

I hope during this Dáil through the good offices of my good colleague, the Minister of State with responsibility for Gaeltacht affairs, who is a native speaker, we can secure agreement in the House that common courtesy will apply to those who speak the first official language in the House and that it will become commonplace that when a Member does not understand the language, he or she will use the headphones provided. If Members have a problem with them because they cover their ears and they are visible, perhaps the answer is to provide ear buds which are not as visible and which are more discreet. If that is the problem, it would mean a small amount well spent in order that this could become a bilingual Parliament. There are a large number of Irish speakers in the Dáil who would contribute in Irish if they thought they would be heeded.

I commented in the past that if I announced I was going to set off an atomic bomb, there would be no reaction as long as I made the announcement in Irish. I would not be far wrong but I hope this Dáil proves me wrong.

I am pleased the Minister of State, Deputy Perry, is present because I am sure he can explain to the Minister without portfolio that decentralisation to Tubbercurry, County Sligo, worked very well. The Department was as efficient in Tubbercurry as it was in Dublin and it did not prove any difficulty to the Minister.

I thank the former Minister for decentralisation. It was much appreciated.

The motion states there is a critical need for immediate and meaningful Oireachtas and local government reform to be undertaken in tandem and I agree with that. Sinn Féin supports much of the content of the motion but the party political Whip system, which is an initiative of political parties rather than criteria set down by the Dáil or the Government, is not required as an institutional mechanism of the Dáil or any political party would be free to get rid of its grouping or to allow its Deputies to have a free vote. Some commentators might argue that implementing this would negate the need for political parties but no law stipulates one must be a member of a political party and this would not add to meaningful political reform.

We fully endorse the Technical Group's call for reform of local government, which is my focus, as spokesperson on local government. Over the years, people's patience and belief in politics and politicians have been sorely tested by the scandalous mismanagement of the economy, decades of unchecked corruption and by the fact there has been little difference in the policies implemented by the main parties, particularly Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael.

We are living with the effects of mismanagement of the boom and now the mismanagement of the recession. The neglect of local government is affecting people as they go about their daily lives, whether it is water crises in counties Galway and Clare, commuter bottlenecks, the failure of transport provision in major urban areas, dangerous sections of roads, the lack of support for those trying to create new jobs and set up enterprises in their own communities, the high rates local businesses are forced to pay as cash strapped local authorities seek to raise funds in one of the only ways they are permitted, developments, particularly in my own constituency of Laois-Offaly and the commuter belt around Dublin, without access to essential services, empty homes on ghost estates while tens of thousands of people are still on local authority housing waiting lists or the lack of playgrounds in cities and towns. A significant number of issues need to be addressed. Reform of local government is essential. People should be allowed to exercise maximum control over their daily lives. This is true of Ireland as a nation and it is true of its local communities.

Distant decisions, inappropriate, inefficient and ineffective one-size-fits-all solutions must become a thing of the past. Strategic co-ordination and minimum standard setting is important but, to be genuinely effective, planning and service delivery must be guided by local knowledge. Communities must be freed and empowered to each realise their unique potential. A much narrower range of powers and functions is provided to local government in this State than in other EU states. We do not have local control over most essential public services or economic development. The way it has developed has been bad for democracy and needs to change. In particular, the current system effectively prevents communities and their local public representatives from responding adequately to changes in economic circumstances, yet help from central Government is rarely sufficient. I have heard councillors from all parties complaining about that at local level. The role of local councillors in policy making is too limited. Instead, many important decisions are made by unelected council managers or by the Minister.

The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government currently has the power to override the democratic will of people and even to dissolve a local council. All of that in turn constrains the ability of ordinary people to exert influence over the decisions that affect them in everyday life. We need to take control over matters of local importance and put them back into the hands of locally elected decision makers. What we have instead in this State is a local government that is stifled by limited powers, under funding, at times corruption, and a lack of vision.

The business of local government must be done differently. Local councils should be centres of community innovation and dynamism. They should be engines to grow and spread prosperity and equality. Local councils should be places where the best and brightest of the community come together to deliver responsive solutions and services and to work co-operatively and efficiently together. Unfortunately, the Local Government Act 2001 did not do that, which was a major disappointment at the time, especially because of what happened to town and borough councils. There is a need to increase the powers of councillors to include appropriate local control over the provision of services such as education, health care, infrastructure, employment, child care and social services.

I ask the Deputy to adjourn the debate.

To conclude, what we are seeking is that local government would have a key role in any reform of local government.

Debate adjourned.
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