I wish to share time with Deputy Mattie McGrath.
Closure of Army Barracks: Motion (Resumed)
The following motion was moved by Deputy Dara Calleary on Tuesday, 4 October 2011:
That Dáil Éireann:
recognises that, through supporting local businesses and services, Army barracks are an integral part of the local economy in the towns in which they are based;
affirms and supports the crucial role that soldiers and their families play in the fabric of the local communities where they are stationed;
further recognises that towns throughout the country are under immense pressure due to the current economic climate and need to be supported;
acknowledges the consolidation of Army barracks in recent years due to the changed security situation in Northern Ireland and the consequent reinvestment of funds to fully modernise the Defence Forces;
further acknowledges investment into the infrastructure of Army barracks across Ireland in recent years;
confirms that as a result of previous consolidation and investment no further Army barrack closures are necessary;
notes with deep concern reports of the imminent closure of a number of barracks across Ireland such as the Dún Uí Néill Barracks, Cavan, Columb Barracks, Mullingar, Kickham Barracks, Clonmel, Stephens Barracks, Kilkenny and the Military Barracks, Castlebar;
condemns the Minister for Defence's refusal to rule out the closure of any Army barracks throughout the country, regardless of its integral role in the local area;
opposes the closure of Dún Uí Néill Barracks, Cavan, Columb Barracks, Mullingar, Kickham Barracks, Clonmel, Stephens Barracks, Kilkenny, the Military Barracks, Castlebar, and any further Army barracks across the country;
opposes the gradual closure of further Army barracks through a reduction of personnel numbers stationed in them; and
calls on the Government to develop a rational strategy to maximise the effectiveness of the Defence Forces that encompasses their role in the towns in which they are based.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:
"commends the Government's resolute action in facing the economic crisis and notes that this action is now bearing fruit;
supports the Government in taking the further difficult and unpopular decisions that are necessary to restore the public finances;
accepts that reform and reorganisation in the public service, including the redeployment of staff, are essential to maximise value for money for the taxpayer;
accepts that, because of reductions in the budget and strength of the Defence Forces required by the 2011 Estimates decided by the previous Government and because of the constraints imposed by the EU/IMF agreement entered into by the previous Government, further savings are required;
notes that these savings are being examined in the context of the Comprehensive Review of Expenditure currently underway;
rejects the glaring inconsistency of the proponents of the motion who, when in Government, closed ten barracks and also caused the fiscal crisis that the current Government has to address;
notes that the experience of the previous Government confirms that barrack closures deliver a substantial efficiency gain to the Defence Forces; and
condemns mischievous attempts to exaggerate the impact of these necessary decisions and create unnecessary fears among local communities."
- (Minister for Defence)
Is that agreed? Agreed. The Deputies have ten minutes between them.
There is no doubt that it is a little cynical of Fianna Fáil to table this motion and wax lyrical about the further closure of Army barracks when the party stood over the destruction of 11 barracks in the last decade of its reign. However, that is not an excuse to allow this Government to deflect attention from or escape responsibility for this serious attack. I oppose the closure of more Army barracks throughout the country.
I am from an Army background. I was reared beside the Curragh Camp and there is no question about the stimulus the Army provided to the local economy. It was absolutely vital and essential. It would be total lunacy on the part of this Government to ignore the role of the State in achieving balanced regional economic development, especially at a time of austerity and job losses. When many rural communities are being decimated in that regard, the role of the State is even more important. The towns involved are the towns where people bought homes for record prices during the boom. They are now in serious negative equity but they are shackled there through 30 and 40 year mortgages.
Another reason I consider this issue very serious is based on my experience of living beside areas where the closure of Army barracks was handled poorly, particularly Magee Barracks in Kildare. It was closed over a decade ago but it has been an utter disaster. Closed without a plan, the barracks are lying derelict after being scavenged and looted. It is an eyesore for residents and a haven for anti-social behaviour. We must consider the current decision to close more barracks against the backdrop of our experience to date.
While it might have been possible to secure alternative viable uses for the barracks during the boom, those days are gone. These are potentially valuable State resources and nothing should be done to jeopardise them. There is no basis for an alternative use and no logic has been put forward to support that argument. Those facilities must be protected and the best way to do that is by maintaining them in use. The Government has not explained the purpose of its decision or the advantage in further closures. No evidence has been submitted.
The Government says this is not about reducing numbers in the Army, but one must seriously question that. It clearly will not improve morale or soldiers' conditions. Instead, the 200 soldiers from Mullingar and the 140 from Cavan will be fighting with the ones who have already been transferred from Longford for accommodation in Athlone, even though the taxpayer has paid to upgrade the facilities, accommodation, roads, gymnasium and so forth in the facility from which they are moving. It is absolute lunacy. In addition, they will be forced to travel to Athlone each day when there is no viable bus service and against the backdrop of decimated pay and conditions on foot of the austerity that has been unleashed on public service workers.
Clearly, families will have to move out of the areas and towns in which they live. That will have a major impact on schools, local businesses and so forth. No viable reason been put forward, nor is there any identifiable alternative use. The only figure I have seen is a net saving of €200,000 in the case of Mullingar. That is a pittance; it would not even cover a banker's bonus or offset the cost of securing the barracks. It is ludicrous. In fact, it will cost money. It will certainly cost the towns money and result in more jobs losses because personnel do not have the money to spend in the local economies. This lunacy must stop. The Government must see sense.
Our armed forces personnel need trade union rights. I salute the efforts of the Army wives who have highlighted this. I voted for an Army wife in the first election in which I voted. However, PDFORRA and the Army personnel should not have to rely on their spouses to articulate their cause. They deserve trade union rights so they can defend their jobs and conditions like every other worker.
I am delighted to speak on this motion and I compliment my colleagues in Fianna Fáil on tabling it. I do not agree with the previous speaker that it is opportunistic. I welcome the Army personnel and their families from Columb Barracks who are in the Visitors Gallery. I understand some of their colleagues from Clonmel are expected to arrive as well.
I salute the previous Government. I had many difficulties with that Government but, in fairness, it protected the barracks it could protect. It certainly protected Kickham Barracks in Clonmel, south Tipperary, which I represent. I invited the former Ministers, Deputy Willie O'Dea and the former Deputy, Tony Killeen, to visit Kickham Barracks. They both visited the barracks to see what a wonderful institution it is. It is a fabulous facility. They met the personnel and saw its infrastructural impact on the town. It has an excellent location and has been there for hundreds of years.
There was a vague response last night from the Minister. It is a retrograde step that there is not a separate full Ministry for defence, with due respect to the Minister of State, Deputy Dinny McGinley. It was a bad move by the Government because it sends the wrong signal. Will we get rid of the Army altogether? Have we no interest in the Army? I have received many contacts from soldiers and their families in Kickham Barracks in Clonmel over recent weeks. Indeed, Deputy Troy raised the matter in a Topical Issue debate and he was told emphatically that there was no threat to the barracks. Since then, there have been many rumours and counter rumours.
I visited Kickham Barracks twice in the past two weeks. I called in last Monday and was instructed when I was leaving that I was not to call again without the permission of the Department of Defence. That is a retrograde step.
Security.
Security is right. You will need security. Ministers will have to come out of their bunkers because they promised and attacked so much. My constituency colleague, Deputy Tom Hayes, was quoted in the local newspaper, The Nationalist, last week. He said the gloves are off as regards the Army barracks and that he would save it. Yesterday, however, he said he will not vote against the Government, regardless of what it closes.
I lost two barracks three years ago when Deputy O'Dea was Minister.
I know. Can I continue without interruption? There was a reconfiguration in some places. However, there are fine barracks in Donegal.
There are two, in Lifford and Rockhill.
We also have one in Clonmel. The barracks in Cavan and Mullingar have people to fight on their behalf. The fight will continue because it is unfair to Army personnel, who are muzzled and not allowed to speak to anyone. I have been told I cannot visit the barracks without getting permission from the Department. If I wish to go to the officers' mess to have some refreshments, will I have to ask the Minister for permission? This is outrageous.
Deputy Tom Hayes, in particular, attacked the Fianna Fáil Government in recent years over any whiff of a wind that something might close. He was quickly on his high horse to preach. He topped the poll because he preached all that doom and gloom. I call on him now to keep the gloves off, or has he any say with his Government? He did not get a position in the Government. He has been a good colleague of mine for years but I call on him now to assert himself and do the same as his colleague in County Roscommon, rather than talking about it and saying he is organising meetings with Ministers. We have not had a single meeting with a Minister since this Government was formed. Deputy Hayes told me once that he has sole responsibility for organising meetings with Ministers, so where is the meeting? I invited the Minister, Deputy Shatter, to come to Clonmel some months ago. He said he would consider it but he has not. I hope he will not make an announcement that the barracks will be closed because it is a wonderful institution and a valuable part of the infrastructure. It makes a huge contribution to the economy and to community life. A major flood relief project is under way currently. It was built and designed with the intention to provide assistance from the Army when there are flood warnings but it will be in Kilkenny, Cork or Limerick. It is a strategic location in the south east and a very valuable——
Deputy Tom Hayes is on the way.
He is always on the way. I welcome that but I call on him to be a man and to stand up for Tipperary South. He criticised me over the years and said I would not do things and that I huffed and puffed. However, we kept our hospital and many other services. From Tipperary Town to Carrick-on-Suir, there are threats to valuable projects, community facilities and HSE facilities. This is the latest threat.
There has been innuendo and talk and it is unfair to Army personnel and their wives and families. The wives met in Clonmel last night and I compliment them on that. It is unfair on the wives who have commitments on child care, schools and mortgages. They are not in a position to travel with their spouses to Limerick because it would not pay them. However, their spouses cannot refuse to go. I do not know what will happen. Perhaps Deputy Tom Hayes might provide a bus for them. I call on him to be a man. So many times in the past he has apologised to me and said that he would have to have a go at me over this or that. I said that was no problem and that he could have a go at me. I stand for Tipperary South. On the night of the count following the general election, he said he would not cause trouble and be like Mattie McGrath. I said I cause trouble when I have to in the interests of my electorate in Tipperary South. That is what I am elected to do and will continue to do. I call on Deputy Tom Hayes to be man and not a mouse and to stand up and be counted.
I am delighted by the fighting spirit shown by Deputy Mattie McGrath. For a minute I thought he was an Army officer leading his troops into battle.
I have a great interest in history and one of the key dates I can recollect is 14 January 1922 when a decision was made by the people to accept the treaty negotiated by the great Michael Collins. On that day, many of the barracks occupied by the British Army were taken over by the young men of the Army of the Irish Free State. It is ironic that one member, the late former President, Éamon de Valera, decided he would not accept the democratic decision of the people.
I am proud to say I have great respect for the young men of the Irish Free State Army who stood by the democratic decision of the people. I have great respect for the young men of the Army who, when this country became a Republic, stood by the people of the Congo where some of them lost their lives. I also have great respect for and honour the people of the Army who served in Bosnia and Lebanon and who stood by the people there. I have no problem with the way they have defended democracy in various places around the world and along the Border here. A good friend of mine was badly injured on his way home from barracks on the Border during the Troubles in the North of Ireland.
I come from County Kildare which is well known as having a close affinity with the Army. In 1813 barracks were opened in Naas. Those barracks no longer exist because they were closed in 1998 by a Fianna Fáil-led Government. In 1901 barracks were rebuilt in Kildare but those barracks were closed by a Fianna Fáil-led Government in 1998.
We will stop Fine Gael as well.
Is the Deputy Fianna Fáil?
No. We stopped Fianna Fáil in 1998 and we will stop Fine Gael in 2011.
The Army has become a modern, slim and trim fighting machine. It has been dealt budgetary cuts in recent years and the number of personnel in the Army has been reduced from 11,500 to 9,500. The Minister has made a commitment that the figure of 9,500 personnel will be maintained.
The hierarchy in the Army recognises that it is spread too thinly over the country. I asked an Army officer if he had a blank sheet and looked at the country, how many of the existing barracks would be there. He said many of them were not strategically placed and that the important thing was to locate barracks in areas in which they could be useful.
The decisions we must make are justifiable because we are living in straitened economic times. One must look at what the Army has done over the years spending wisely to modernise itself. I have total respect for the modern Army we have produced and I support the call that we make strategic decisions to maintain the figure of 9,500 personnel and ensure they have the equipment so that they can support the Government and carry out their peacekeeping duties.
It is ironic that Fianna Fáil has tabled this motion on the closure of Army barracks when, in the best of economic times, Fianna Fáil-led Governments saw the closure of up to 11 barracks. Now that it is in opposition and we are in troublesome economic times, does it believe it made a mistake closing those barracks or what has changed?
We are living in very difficult economic times and tough decisions must be made. This Government will not shy away from making those decisions. I accept the need to rationalise and to trim down the number of barracks. We must look at where we came from. Barracks locations date back to a different era. Most of these barracks were built in the 1700s and the 1800s by the British to try to stem the rising tide of Irish freedom fighters. Thankfully, we live in a very different country today. Some of these barracks are no longer fit for purpose and the reason for their location is historical.
The most important thing is the numbers in the Defence Forces. As a Deputy for Kildare South, the Curragh is in my constituency and a large number of Defence Forces personnel are my constituents. I am all too aware of the issues affecting them. There is no greater issue than the number of Defence Forces personnel. If Fianna Fáil Deputies had the choice between the closure of some barracks or a reduction in the number of personnel, which would they choose? That is a very obvious question. I can only take from its motion that it would prefer to see a reduction in the number of Defence Forces personnel than see any barracks closed.
Our Defence Forces have enhanced our reputation internationally through their peacekeeping duties. They have the best reputation of any defence force in the world in carrying out those duties. That role must be maintained and protected where possible.
Another point which must be borne in mind in regard to barracks is that if we were to reduce the number of personnel as opposed to the number of barracks, that would result in the closure of barracks in time because one would not have enough personnel to maintain all of them. That would happen by default. Having said that, if barracks are to close, we need to be well organised and aware of the issues which will arise in certain locations.
In 1998 a previous Fianna Fáil-led Government closed Magee Barracks in Kildare Town. There have been difficulties with Magee Barracks. The reason it lies idle today is a long and protracted one and I will not go into the litany of failed policy decisions by the previous Government which has left this large site in the centre of a vibrant town surrounded by housing estates idle. However, we need to deal adequately with vacant barracks.
Magee Barracks has seen problems from anti-social behaviour, bonfires at night, vandalism, theft of lead off roofs, theft of manhole covers, the extraction of metal cables from the ground as well as fear and intimation among the families living adjacent to the site. The issue is one of policing. One cannot have a large site in the centre of a town and say it is enough to fence it off. I have raised the problems that affect Magee Barracks with the Minister and his departmental officials and I acknowledge the great lengths they have gone to in trying to address them. The gardaí in Kildare already have a lot on their plate and I urge the Minister to work with the Defence Forces to provide adequate patrols of the barracks and surrounding sites. The problems that have arisen for Magee Barracks are short term and will persist for the duration of the economic crisis. We need to put in place a system that ensure the protection of people who live beside vacant barracks until the economy recovers to the stage where a positive use can be found for these sites.
I continue to work with the Minister on recruiting personnel to offset the retirements and losses that will occur in the Defence Forces over the coming months. Our focus should be on protecting our fantastic Defence Forces.
Since the foundation of the State, Fine Gael has been dedicated to the Defence Forces and our commitment will remain. As someone who comes from a garrison town, I am proud of the Defence Forces. I know first hand the contribution our personnel make to communities at local, national and international levels and their conduct as ambassadors abroad is second to none.
Last week, I visited soldiers from Athlone and Mullingar deployed with the UN in Lebanon. I attended a medal parade for the 104th Irish battalion at Camp Shamrock in Tibnin. The soldiers are drawn from the fourth western brigade and the Defence Forces training centre in the Curragh and are under the command of Lt. Col. Frank Bolger. They arrived in Lebanon in May 2011 and will rotate out at the end of November. I thank Lt. Col. Bolger for his kind invitation to attend the medal parade and the opportunity to visit the men and women who do us so proud. Morale was extremely high and they appreciate all the support they receive from their friends and family in Ireland.
Approximately 195 personnel, including officers, enlisted personnel and civilian employees, are stationed in Columb Barracks. The barracks houses the fourth field artillery regiment, which is an element of the fourth western brigade and the last artillery regiment in the State.
The primary objective for any barracks reorganisation or personnel redeployment is the efficient and effective delivery of military capabilities. The Government has not yet made a decision on the future of Columb Barracks.
The strength of the Permanent Defence Force has been reduced to the level of the 1970s due to the austerity measures initiated by the previous Government. Fianna Fáil Deputies appear to have forgotten the deadly legacy they left for this country. This conversation would not be taking place but for the actions required of us by the EU and the IMF. Nobody on the Opposition benches proposed constructive measures to improve our current situation. Fianna Fáil sold off our economic sovereignty and now it is irresponsibly introducing this Private Members' motion. This is a legacy issue which arose during the term of the previous Government. The EU-IMF deal requires the State to achieve a budget deficit of 8.6% next year. This will involve cuts of at least €3.6 billion in the next budget, including up to €30 million in cuts from the Department of Defence.
Any action the Government takes is based on the ultimate objective of restoring our economic sovereignty and ensuring our future financial independence. I support the Minister for Defence in his aims of concentrating our investments in areas of the Defence Forces which are important to its operational and overseas capabilities and ensuring it is properly equipped and trained. I do not want to see a reduction in the strength of the Defence Forces below the current level of 9,559 personnel but we must consider every option for effecting savings and using our resources wisely. I want to see further recruitment in the future. Nobody wants to see barracks closures and I have every faith that the Minister's decisions will be based on securing the long-term future of the Defence Forces. I fear, however, that we may spread our resources too thinly with the result that equipment and training will be insufficient to the tasks required from the members of the Defence Forces. We must prioritise our resources.
Despite the obvious political opportunism attached to this motion on the reorganisation of our Defence Forces, I welcome the opportunity to speak about adverse effects which a downgrading of Stephens Barracks in Kilkenny will have on my constituents and the strategic position of the Army in the south east of Ireland.
The wind is gone from the sail of this motion because Fianna Fáil in government consistently refused to give an absolute commitment on retaining specific barracks. This is a matter of public record and established practice. It supported the consolidation of Defence Forces units into a smaller number of locations as part of its objective of maximising efficiency. In January 2010, when it commenced the review of public service numbers under the employment control framework, it cast doubt on the future of a viable unit in Kilkenny. Taking note of the number of questions raised in the past by other Deputies, it is obvious that uncertainty has surrounded Stephens Barracks for a considerable period of time.
Now that the Chief of Staff has carried out a series of internal briefings in regard to decreasing the numbers in one infantry battalion in each of the three brigades, it is important that the Government remains aware of the need to maintain a regional balance in any agreed outcome. There are operational benefits in retaining a strategic regional Army presence in Kilkenny. I understand that the suggested consolidation plan will increase the numbers in two battalions and reduce numbers in the third. This will involve downgrading a battalion to a training unit with limited resources and scope.
The value of the Army's civil support role was not fully appreciated until we experienced the severe weather conditions of recent winters. In January, the Army stood ready to provide vital assistance to the people of the south east during a national emergency that had not yet received an adequate response from the Government.
Many of my constituents both in Carlow and Kilkenny, particularly those living in remote and upland areas, owe a great debt to the Defence Forces for their expertise and provision of specialist vehicles to local authorities and health and community care interests. I am aware of the vital emergency support role the Defence Forces played during the periods of bad weather in moving patients, medical staff and supplies where poor road conditions prevailed. It is no use telling a whole region that vital assistance is available elsewhere in Dublin, Cork or Limerick.
James Stephens Barracks in Kilkenny has provided steady employment to both military and civilian families alike. The city and county has lost a number of its high-profile, intensive industries in recent years. Any reduction in Army personnel will have a disproportionate effect on the lives and livelihoods of those in my constituency in a region that has the lowest per capita standard of living in the country.
As a component part of the First Southern Brigade, Kilkenny is rich in accommodation and ancillary facilities so that the financial challenge to meet expansion there is reduced. Critically, in these austere times, viability must be one of the principal considerations in any decision. It goes without saying that the rubber-stamping by this Government of recommendations by senior Defence Forces management must be based on the costs.
I have set out my views based on two aspects of the motion. I have also set out clear reasons why colleagues who are not burdened with barracks closures in their constituency should support the viable and strategic regional retention of James Stephens Barracks in Kilkenny. I reject the motion because Fianna Fáil Members who are acting like prima donnas were responsible for the present difficulties.
Hear, hear.
This small proud country that is struggling to maintain its sovereignty is playing a commendable role in international peacekeeping and deserves better than this cynical opportunistic motion.
I thank the previous speaker for sharing her time with me so generously. I welcome the opportunity to speak tonight on this Private Members' motion. I support the amendment tabled by the Minister for Defence. I know from my own county the importance of the role played by the Defence Forces when they are called upon to help in times of need.
The barracks of Gormanston is in County Meath. It is currently used as a training facility for the Defence Forces and it houses the Air Accident Investigation Unit. Its history up to now has been very different. In the 1920s it took on three different roles. First, it was the demobilisation centre for the Black and Tans. Then it was used by the Free State Army as an internment camp for republican prisoners. Up to 2,000 people were held there until the late 1920s. It later became the transport headquarters for the Army. When the Troubles began in the late 1960s the camp was used to house refugees from Belfast who had fled south. At various times there were between 200 and 300 people there. Eventually it became the transition stop as refugees were moved on to Wicklow and Cork. At those times the camp played an important role, and it still does today. It is a role that is universally respected.
Last night the Fianna Fáil backbenchers spoke about the respect that society has for the Defence Forces. I know about that respect because I hear it from my constituents who see the great work the Army did, particularly in recent times when we had very inclement weather last winter. Residents of Ashbourne, Dunboyne and Stamullen were stuck during the cold weather but they managed to get to work and get their children to school because of the hard work of the Defence Forces at the time.
I am also aware of the respect other countries have for our Defence Forces. When I was the Labour Party spokesperson on defence in the Seanad I spoke about the respect the Defence Forces command when they serve abroad in peacekeeping missions in such places as Lebanon and Chad. This motion is not about respect. It is a return to the politics that Deputy Micheál Martin said he would leave behind him. It is not constructive opposition; it is playing local politics in the national Chamber. This is not the time for flippant Private Members' motions, it is a time for the Parliament to focus on restoring our economic sovereignty, which Fianna Fáil signed away. Perhaps what is more cynical is that the motion ignores completely the previous decisions made by the Fianna Fáil-led Government.
Deputy Hannigan should read the motion.
There seems to be a collective amnesia not just among older Deputies but among new Deputies as well about exactly what Fianna Fáil did in the previous Government. It is as if they have joined a different party. One Deputy said last night that he carries no torch for the previous Administration.
The Deputy should speak through the Chair please.
I remind Fianna Fáil Deputies, old and new, that since 1998 ten barracks have been closed by Fianna Fáil. I also remind them that in the budget of 2009 they voted for the closure of four barracks in places such as Monaghan, Lifford, Longford and Letterkenny. In the motion before us tonight Fianna Fáil confirms that as a result of previous consolidation and investment no further closure of Army barracks is necessary.
Exactly.
That is not what the previous Minister for Defence, Mr. Tony Killeen, said one year ago last week. He said that any properties that are considered surplus to military requirements will be disposed of. A year later in October 2011 Fianna Fáil is condemning the Minister's refusal to rule out the closure of any Army barracks throughout the country regardless of their integral role in the local area. Just one year ago in October 2010 the Minister said the dispersal of personnel over an extended number of locations is a major impediment to essential collective training. It will take more than a year for people to forget about the damage that Fianna Fáil has done not just to this country but to the Army.
It will take them less than six months to cop on to the Government.
What about all the U-turns?
Members of the Opposition proposed this motion to try to embarrass the Government but they have really ended up embarrassing themselves because the motion is cynical and is creating unnecessary fears among local communities.
The Deputy's colleagues are doing that.
It does nothing to support the Defence Forces. It is the type of politics that will not get us out of the problems we are in.
What about the Minister of State who said it was crass stupidity to close the barracks in Mullingar?
I am pleased to have an opportunity to speak on the motion on an issue that is important to many people in my constituency. In recent weeks I have received countless telephone calls and e-mails on this matter. It is an issue that dominates my work at present and will continue to do so until a final decision is reached.
For the record, I am opposed to the possible closure of Kickham Barracks in Clonmel. I have conveyed that to the Minister. My opposition is not simply based on the financial impact on the town but also because of the rich military tradition that exists in Clonmel, which is a source of great pride in my constituency. The service of the men and women in the barracks is something of which we can be proud. Some of my colleagues have mentioned that they met with the military families. I am pleased to say that I have also met some of them and listened to their cases. I look forward to meeting more of them at a public meeting in Clonmel on Monday night.
We often thank those in the Defence Forces for their service, rightly so, but I also thank the families — husbands, wives, sons and daughters who often say goodbye to loved ones for months at a time as they represent this country overseas. I would like to reassure those families that they too are in my thoughts with regard to this matter. I hope to be able to address some of their concerns in the coming weeks.
I have already stated publicly that I will support the Government on this matter, although that may not be popular with many people in my constituency. I was elected to not only represent my constituency but to get work done on rebuilding the country, to bring people back to work, to stop the high levels of emigration and the flight from our country that is taking place. I will not be swayed by political stunts, such as the one on display in the House tonight and last night, with such a serious topic currently in discussion with the Department as well as at Cabinet.
What I find so disappointing about the motion is not the issue itself but its use by the Opposition for publicity and self-promotion on local radio and in local newspapers.
Deputy Hayes was good at that himself. That rings hollow.
This motion is grounded entirely in politics. It appears that after years of irresponsible leadership and poor decision making, Fianna Fáil has yet to return to reality. Given the financial burden placed on the Government and the people, as well as a loss of economic sovereignty, every Department has been placed under severe pressure.
I agree with the Minister that our priority must be to maintain the current numbers of military personnel serving in the Defence Forces. We are already back to the 1970 levels but it is my belief that to maintain our current commitment overseas we must not reduce military numbers any further, and I am glad that the Minister is not doing that. However, importantly, the overall operations of the Defence Forces can only be decided by senior military commanders in consultation with the Department of Defence. They are the ones best positioned to advise on decisions such as these. All I would ask is that the Minister takes into account the enormous impact the Defence Forces have in Clonmel and south Tipperary, and that they consider the financial effect such a closure would have on the many local businesses, not alone in Clonmel but throughout Tipperary. I will continue to fight for these people and their communities.
I finish by thanking the Defence Forces for their great commitment to the country. I hope the Minister listens to the plea I have made tonight. I am glad a decision has not been made and that it will take some time for a decision to be made on the issue.
The surgical gloves are still on.
I thank my colleague for bringing this Private Members' business before the House this evening.
I am deeply saddened that the Government's actions have warranted this motion. I take no pleasure in speaking on this tonight, but I do so in the best interests of the Army personnel working in Columb barracks, their families and the business community of Mullingar and in the interests of the public purse.
I acknowledge those who have travelled from Mullingar tonight: family and friends of Army personnel, IUNVA — Post 20, ex-Army personnel, members of the business community and local councillors — Collentine, Glynn, Penrose and Dollard.
Both Government and Opposition are at one when we speak of the pride we have in the men and women who serve in the Defence Forces. These men and women have instilled pride in their families, communities, counties and country.
I ask the Government Members tonight, if no decision has been made, why have so many Deputies come out giving excuses about why closures are needed. Last night, and in recent days, Ministers accused us of typical opportunistic opposition, but what else would they say? Do the same Ministers accuse themselves or their party colleagues of having opportunistic agendas? I saw no politician from any party speaking in favour of the closure or downgrading of Columb Barracks at the protest meeting last week, that is, those of us who turned up to it. Anyone who knows me and who has worked with me as a councillor for seven years on Westmeath County Council will know that I have always worked constructively with all members across all parties in the interests of the county and would be one of the less partisan politicians in the county. Since Fianna Fáil was soundly defeated in the last general election, we have not engaged in opportunistic opposition, as some would lead one to believe. In fact, we have supported the Government on various legislative issues since then — 11 out of 15. Is that the record of an opportunistic Opposition?
It was senior Army personnel, who are directly responsible to the Minister for Defence, who visited the barracks in question announcing impending closures. It was they who generated the anxiety and fear all concerned.
Since then, and previously, I along with my colleagues have tried to get answers from the Minister, but he has treated us with contempt and, in doing so, has so treated the people we represent. He refuses to outline his proposals despite the fact that the Department has completed the value for money review. He also declined my invitation to visit these barracks — another insult to the personnel. The past three Ministers visited Columb Barracks and confirmed its future on each occasion.
In our motion, we acknowledged that the previous Government engaged in consolidation of Army barracks but we feel that the process is complete if we are to maintain the Defence Forces at the current level of 9,500.
Columb Barracks can trace its history back almost 200 years. It is the home of the 4th Field Artillery Regiment and also acts as a headquarters of the Reserve Defence Force and the 54th Regiment. Columb Barracks is the last remaining artillery barracks in Ireland and, given its location in the geographical centre of the country, is of strategic importance. It acts as a staging post for all our overseas and UN-based operations. Currently, there are more than 200 serving personnel based in the barracks along with 20 highly-skilled civilian staff.
I will point out a few reasons Columb Barracks should not close. On costs, there is no economic gain. This decision, according to a more senior politician than I, is crass stupidity and economic lunacy. There would be immediate costs involved in transferring and redeploying the 200 troops current based there. There is no spare capacity in other locations in the command area and closing Columb Barracks would involve building new facilities in another location.
The closure of Columb Barracks would result in a net loss of approximately €8 million to the local economy at a time when local businesses are finding it increasingly difficult to survive and are getting no support from the Government. The Government opposes reforming rates and only last week the controlling parties on Westmeath County Council voted against proposals by the chamber of commerce on modifying parking charges to help the traders.
There has been a close historical connection between the town and the Defence Forces. The troops in Columb Barracks provide important local supports to the community.
Recruitment to the PDF and RDF is highest in areas where there are Army barracks. Closing Columb Barracks would diminish local recruitment. Maybe this is part of the Government's plan.
The convenient location of Defence Forces is critical in time of emergency. We saw at first hand over the past two winters just how critical it was to have them on board.
Mr. Declan Power, an independent security consultant, was quoted last week in the local Westmeath Topic, which reported:
"There seems to be no strategy", he said. "I think the Government are more concerned about the optics of being seen to close things. But I ask, where is the common sense to satisfy such optics?"
He pointed out that Columb Barracks has undergone a costly revamp in recent years.
Last night the one of the reasons the Ministers used for closing the barracks was that we did so in the past, and he commended the previous Government on doing so. While I appreciate the new Government has adopted many of the previous Government's economic policies, there is no need to adopt consolidation of the Defence Forces.
My constituency colleague described the decision to close Connolly Barracks as a "shameful and ill-thought out decision". Does he now think the same of Columb Barracks? I sincerely hope he does because three years after the closure of the Connolly Barracks, it still remains unsold, derelict in the heart of Longford town. Only last week the Minister for Defence refused to sign over the barracks to the local authority. He expects the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to pay the Department of Defence, bearing in mind that all moneys come from the Department of Finance.
Members of the Government like to blame the EU-IMF deal for further closures while at the same time claim any moneys raised will be re-invested in the Defence Forces. Other Members claim that there is no economic gain by closing the Army barracks. Why then would the EU-IMF be interested? The EU-IMF has set a target of 8.6% of GDP by 2012 which, incidentally, is something on which we agree. However, how that is achieved is by making choices. The Government did this when it chose to introduce the pension levy. It chose to spare the cuts when it appointed its own advisers without paying any heed to the cap. The cost of special advisers to senior Ministers far exceeds the €300,000 that will allegedly be saved at Columb Barracks.
I am aware of the difficult job facing the Government. That is why we have pledged to be constructive in opposition. Tonight is not about party politics; it is about the future of these barracks and the integral role they play in local communities and economies. A dark cloud is hanging over the future of these barracks and the Minister for Defence is the only person who can lift it. I ask him to listen to his Cabinet colleague who continues to support the retention of the barracks. No further consolidation should be announced. I ask the Government to be upfront and honest with the people, as it pledged it would be in February this year, and to remove the uncertainty.
Hear, hear.
The Government should clearly outline its plans for these barracks. People's lives are at risk. They do not know what to do or how to plan for the future. The only ones who can remove that uncertainty are the members of the Government.
The motion before the House is neither cynical nor opportunistic. It is clear from the contributions to the debate that Deputies on all sides of the House were anxious to air their views on the importance of the Defence Forces and the barracks situated around the country. They have done so with passion. I commend Deputy Troy on his speech in defence of his own area, the local barracks and the Defence Forces in general. His appeal to the Minister to use common sense was well founded. I encourage the Minister to take on board the views of Opposition and Government Members. I appreciate that Deputies on the other side of the House can defeat the motion if they wish.
The Defence Forces have served the country well. I commend the 3rd Infantry Battalion which is based at James Stephens Barracks in Kilkenny on the contribution it has made to the locality. I wish the Officer Commanding, Lieutenant Philip Brennan, well in heading up a 100-man unit that is going to serve overseas. The unit will play the leading role in the project in matters such as transport and medical services, etc. It shows the value of the Defence Forces' operations abroad and the value of James Stephens Barracks as part of the Army infrastructure throughout the country.
I acknowledge the work of previous Ministers. I was Mayor of Kilkenny in 1996 when James Stephens Barracks was threatened once again. The local story is that the barracks seems to be mentioned whenever barracks closures are threatened. Contrary to what has been said, the Fianna Fáil Minister for Defence at the time made it perfectly clear to the local community in Carlow and Kilkenny and the surrounding counties that James Stephens Barracks would not be closed. It did not close at the time, when Fianna Fáil was in government, despite all the political nonsense and noise to the effect that it would.
The number of personnel serving at James Stephen Barracks has continued to grow, despite the wrong and misleading commentary of a number of years ago. The number in service at the barracks is 270. Over €2 million was invested in the 14-acre site in recent times. Rather than considering the closure of the barracks, the Government should look at the services provided for the local community at the Garda and Army barracks. Perhaps some of the difficulties being experienced at the Garda barracks might be dealt with. James Stephens Barracks could be used to house a special Garda unit that is seeking a home. Perhaps they could be used beyond the Army, within the tightened resources and moneys available.
The Minister could easily increase the number of Defence Forces personnel serving at James Stephens Barracks. He could easily utilise to a greater degree the 14 acres available to him, for example, by facilitating the extension of the services provided from the existing Garda barracks on the other side of our growing city. I repeat that James Stephens Barracks could house the special Garda unit that has been designated for Kilkenny. It is a question of building on the investment made in the Army and the investment the Army has made in local communities, not just in Kilkenny but in every part of the country. Members of the House have spoken about exactly what has been done in the barracks in their local areas. They have emphasised the esteem in which Army personnel are so dearly held in each of these areas.
I note that some members of Óglaigh na hÉireann are present. Having served their time in the Army, they are here to support the force and ensure no further reduction in numbers is made. It is essential that the infrastructure is firmly protected for the future. The Minister needs to play a role in that regard. As a constructive Opposition party, we will work with the Minister and the Government in drawing up the budgets necessary to ensure the country's future. Certain values need to be reflected in what we are doing. Every time we impose a cut, we make a statement. We should not make a statement by reducing the number of Army personnel or infrastructure. We can make a brave statement by supporting those who have supported us at home and abroad.
I would like to share some of my time with Deputy Healy-Rae.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
The debate in the House over the last two nights has exercised the minds of Deputies on all sides. I have noticed that very few Labour Party Deputies came into the House last night and tonight. Perhaps that, in itself, is a good sign. I know some of them are unhappy about the decision that may be taken by the Fine Gael-Labour Party coalition. I am sure they will use all their power at the Cabinet table to ensure the mass closure of barracks that the Minister is allegedly planning does not happen. One of the problems with this debate is that we are operating in a vacuum to an extent. There has been much talk about the closure of barracks. Last night the Minister did not say how many, if any, will be closed, or if they are all going to close. This is totally unfair on the Defence Forces and the communities in which barracks are located. The Minister should set out clearly what he intends to do. If he intends to impose closures, he should explain how he will bring them about.
I am not very good at reading the computer, but I looked today at the manifestos published by the Labour Party and Fine Gael before this year's general election. Nothing in the documentation suggested Army barracks would be closed. I wonder, given that they have changed their minds and broken their promises in so many other areas, whether they intend to do likewise in this respect. The Fine Gael manifesto included very little about the Defence Forces. The Labour Party manifesto stated:
Labour will publish a White Paper on the Defence Forces setting out our vision for the Defence Forces to 2020. This will include a strategy to restore the strength of the Defence Forces to 10,500 members. Such a paper will also consider what the appropriate role for PDFORRA might be within the wider Trade Union movement.
It is obvious that the Labour Party was making plans for the future of the Defence Forces. I suggest its Deputies should have come to the House to spell out where they stand on this issue.
We all proudly acknowledge the participation of the Army in peace missions across the world. Those who have served are held in high regard. We must also recognise the substantial contribution of the Defence Forces to the security of the State during the years. During my life in politics, I have seen the great work carried out by the Defence Forces in times of need, including during fire brigade strikes and flooding problems. During all of the snow and the resulting emergencies last winter, we saw at first hand the work and support given by the Defence Forces, including to nurses and doctors in making sure valuable medical and food services were provided to people in need.
We need to recognise this role. Army personnel are not just based in Army barracks as they also make a valuable contribution to communities throughout the country. We must also remember the role they played during the violence in Northern Ireland, when they risked life and limb on Border duty in protecting the State from subversives and illegal organisations.
Of course, Fianna Fáil must acknowledge that it closed some barracks. However, the money from this was used to revamp the Defence Forces, in particular to upgrade and reinvest in equipment and to upgrade remaining barracks. Some €84.98 million was realised from the sale of barracks in the recent past and directing this funding to the upgrading of equipment proved very important, given some equipment was obsolete and in need of replacement. That money was wisely spent and the reinvestment was critical in raising the standard of equipment and facilities used by the Defence Forces from what was considered to be a position below international standards. If we are to be involved in peacekeeping efforts throughout the world, it is only right that the Defence Forces would have the proper, state-of-the-art equipment that is necessary.
The Reserve Defence Force also underwent a systematic overhaul and re-branding. The recommendations of the Reserve Defence Force Review Implementation Board in 2004 set out very clearly a series of measures to ensure the development of the future operations of the reserve forces and, in 2004 and 2005, working groups in this area also made strong recommendations.
Deputy Troy referred to value for money. The Minister should make public the value for money audit that was carried out, if one was carried out. If so, it should be made available to PDFORRA and to this House. When we carry out financial reviews, the reports that result are very important. It is very easy to take into account the money saved through the closure of barracks but what about the loss to the communities and the effect it will have on them? The soldiers and their families are an essential part of the local economy in the towns in which they are located.
I support Deputy McGuinness in regard to the James Stephens Barracks in Kilkenny. Many soldiers and members of the Defence Forces operating there are from my own county of Wexford and some have contacted me in recent weeks to express serious concern about the downgrading of these barracks.
I understand the Minister of State, Deputy Kehoe, attended the PDFORRA conference today and I am sure he heard of the difficulties and problems it would have with the closure of barracks, in particular in regard to recruitment. I did not agree with the outgoing Fianna Fáil Minister in regard to putting a ban on recruitment to the Army. I am sure many young people from County Wexford attend the office of the Minister of State, Deputy Kehoe. If they are on jobseeker's benefit, we are paying such people €200 a week if they are single and nearly €500 a week if they are married with two children. Many of these people want to get into the Army or be involved in the Defence Forces. We should seriously consider recruitment for the future. It is not good enough to have young people walking the streets when, for very little extra money, they could be training in the Defence Forces and doing something worthwhile for their country.
I thank Deputy John Browne for affording me the opportunity to speak on this important issue and for sharing time. I acknowledge the presence of the Government Chief Whip, the Minister of State, Deputy Paul Kehoe, and thank him for the work he has done in the past. I also acknowledge the people from Columb Barracks in Mullingar and those who travelled from Clonmel and Cavan. I welcome them in a very special way and I respect the fact of each of them have travelled here today to support us in what we are trying to achieve.
I wish to support the motion opposing the proposed closure of a number of key Army barracks throughout the country and to condemn the Minister's refusal to avail of the opportunity to rule out the closure of any Army barracks, despite the massive boost to the local economy they generate in the towns in which they are based. With regard to Dún Uí Néill Barracks in County Cavan, I want to acknowledge the man who brought the barracks to that town in the first place, namely, the late, great Mr. John Wilson, a highly respected and respectable politician and public representative who worked very hard for many years. I can only imagine how he would feel if he were here to see this debate taking place and to see a Minister refusing to acknowledge the possible severity of the implications of these actions.
We are proud of both current and past members of our armed forces for the courage and respectability they have portrayed while abroad, and for their unwavering dedication to the people here at home. During times of trouble and strife in particular, the Army could always be relied upon to work hard on behalf of all the people.
If barracks were to be closed, I believe those who assert that no money would be saved and that the opposite could occur. When it comes to closing any facility, we have to learn from and remember our past mistakes, for example, when our sugar beet factories were closed down and we found out a short time later that they never should have been allowed to close and that there was no justification in closing them. Rather than closing the barracks, we should consider imaginative and creative ways of utilising them for further good purposes. One idea is the encouraging of the Reserve Defence Force to recruit more young people by utilising these barracks for training grounds and facilities.
I also wish to condemn wholeheartedly any proposed gradual closure of barracks through the reduction of the number of personnel stationed in them. The Government must ensure it maximises the use and effectiveness of the Defence Forces in a way that involves them in the communities where the barracks are based. Surely the Minister recognises that the closure of any Army barracks will tear the heart and soul out of the communities where they are based. Many small shops, pubs, restaurants and other businesses are highly dependent on the economic support the barracks and their personnel provide. I repeat that it will cost the Government more money if it goes ahead with closures as the knock-on effect to local businesses could result in forcing employees out of gainful employment and onto the ever-increasing social welfare queues.
Since the recent discussions on this subject have become public, families of Army and civil personnel are suffering greatly because of the uncertainty of what is proposed. I call on the Minister not to fudge this issue but to make clear statements of intent and stop hiding behind waffle and bluster.
I do not like referring to a Minister when he is not in the Chamber but I will do so as I am not to blame that he is not present. Last week, the Minister virtually sneered at me and a colleague of mine when we raised the issue of the closure of rural Garda stations. I can tell the Minister that comments he may have considered smart did not go down well with members of the Garda or the public in general. Obviously, people in rural Ireland were outraged by his glib response. Will he try to do tonight what he did last week, namely, place the blame for his actions at the feet of a former Member of this House? I emphasise he singled out one Member and he certainly did not show himself in a good light last week by attacking a former Member of Dáil Éireann.
Hear, hear.
The Minister's performance last week left much to be desired and he certainly let himself down. I hope he will do better with this issue and in this debate. I remind the Minister — I hope someone will pass on this message to him — that despite his long years of service in this House, he must serve many more years in Dáil Éireann before achieving politically the same amount achieved for his constituency and constituents by the Member he condemned last week.
Hear, hear.
I ask the Deputy to conclude.
Finally, I ask for common sense to prevail tonight and for the barracks to remain open. Overall, it would save money to do so and would be the sound, prudent and sensibly politically correct thing to do.
I remind Deputy Healy-Rae that his own father voted with the Government to close the sugar beet factories a number of years ago. This is a bit rich coming from him.
That also is a fairly poor response from the Chief Whip.
Since going into opposition, Members on the other side of the House are continuing with their long tradition——
That is as bad as the man last week.
Order.
——of trying to be all things to all people.
Order.
They either will not or lack the capability, to face up to the facts and to be honest with people.
The Minister of State does not know what that is.
Their stance on barracks consolidation is no different. Given the desperate financial state of this country, which the Government inherited from Fianna Fáil——
The Minister of State is in government now.
——choices must made, most of which will be hard choices, as to how the Government prioritises in this regard.
That is it. The Government can prioritise and it will be its choices.
The Government has choices.
Thanks to Fianna Fáil and its reckless handling of the economy, as well as its failure to capitalise on the benefits of the Celtic tiger years, Government expenditure in all areas must be reduced and substantially so in many areas. Consequently, instead of looking at areas of the Defence Forces in which to make worthwhile investments that would in turn improve and be of benefit to the Defence Forces and our international standing, the Government is forced into a position of making hard and difficult choices. Whatever stance Members on the other side of the House wish to adopt in this debate, the issue really is about using taxpayers' money in the most effective way and in a productive way——
But last January, so doing was wrong.
Why did the Minister of State not say this six months ago?
——rather than squandering it like the previous Government did for many years. This is taxpayers' money——
We know that.
This is money the Government will respect and will spend wisely.
Yes, on advisers.
This is purely a parochial game which simultaneously ignores the national requirement. The Government will not continue the Fianna Fáil habit of wasting taxpayers' money. Rather, its aim is to use that money to get the best possible return for the country as a whole.
Barracks consolidation is not an easy matter to deal with and there is no point in saying otherwise. However, it is an issue that must be faced up to and it will be extremely difficult for the Government to ensure the Defence Forces are allowed to manage their resources to the full, as well as to properly equip and train them to meet their roles. In this context, tying up substantial numbers of personnel in barracks-related duties and having small numbers of units and personnel spread out across the country in a large number of barracks will not allow this. Were Members on the other side of the House being honest, they also would admit this. As the Minister stated last night, were Fianna Fáil to have its way, the country would be left with an unsustainable number of poorly maintained barracks with little or no modern equipment.
We introduced all the new equipment.
If I wished, I could quote at length this evening from statements made by Fianna Fáil Ministers for Defence on the benefits to the Defence Forces of barracks closures but I will not. However, I will list the barracks closed by Fianna Fáil-led Governments over the last 11 years.
We invested the money wisely.
Ballincollig Barracks, County Cork, was closed by a Fianna Fáil Government in 1998. Fermoy Barracks, County Cork, was closed by a Fianna Fáil Government in 1998.
Address the future.
What about Dún Uí Néill Barracks, Cavan? What about Stephens Barracks?
Devoy Barracks, County Kildare, was closed by a Fianna Fáil Government in 1998.
What about the only barracks that was ever built by this State?
Order, please.
Magee Barracks, County Kildare, was closed by a Fianna Fáil Government in 1998.
Think of Vinegar Hill.
Castleblayney Barracks, County Monaghan, was closed by a Fianna Fáil Government in 1998.
What else happened in ‘98?
Clancy Barracks, Dublin, was closed by a Fianna Fáil Government in 1998.
The Minister of State should announce the ones that will be closed next week and the week after.
Order, please.
Think of the future.
Monaghan Barracks was closed by a Fianna Fáil Government in 2009. Lifford Barracks, County Donegal, was closed by a Fianna Fáil Government in 2009.
Think of the future.
Longford Barracks was closed by a Fianna Fáil Government in 2009 and Rockhill House, Letterkenny, County Donegal, was closed by a Fianna Fáil Government in 2009.
The Minister of State is living in the past.
What about the ones that will close in the future?
Fianna Fáil Members opposite are experts on closing Army barracks.
Will the Government close Columb Barracks, Mullingar?
It would make a lot of sense——
Order, please.
Deputy Mattie McGrath referred to the Government performing U-turns.
Yes, it gave commitments.
Deputy McGrath did so many U-turns himself when he was on this side of the House he was spinning around on the bench.
We kept the barracks in Clonmel.
(Interruptions).
Order.
The transformation of Sinn Féin is absolutely outstanding.
The Minister of State is on a spin.
Last night in the Chamber, I was absolutely astounded. Not so long ago, Sinn Féin refused to recognise the Irish Army in this State.
Is the Minister of State going to do another tweet?
I am delighted Sinn Féin finally has admitted there is one true republican Army, Óglaigh na hÉireann, and that is in this State, which Sinn Féin refused to recognise for years. I refer to the hypocrisy of Sinn Féin Members talking about barracks closures last night in the Chamber. I will not go as far as I would wish in this regard or will not say it in the Chamber.
Say it.
The Minister of State will tweet it.
As the Minister has privilege, he should go ahead.
It was absolutely outstanding and unbelievable. As for Deputy Healy-Rae, his father——
The Minister of State should mind his manners.
I am sorry, Minister of State, please——
Deputy Healy-Rae——
The Minister of State should resume his seat. Everyone should note I want some silence for the speaker.
The Minister of State's time is over.
The Minister of State should conclude his remarks as we must move on to the next speaker.
I remind Deputy Healy-Rae that on previous occasions, his father walked up those steps and turned left——
The best the Minister of State can do is talk about a man who has retired——
——in voting with the Government.
Please.
——from politics as a respectable politician. How dare the Minister of State?
Deputy, stop.
It was Deputy Healy-Rae's father, as well as Deputy Mattie McGrath——
The Minister of State should have a small bit of manners in this House.
——who held up that Government for years——
Order please.
Have a bit of respect.
——which now has the country in economic ruin.
Minister, please.
It is because the country is in economic ruin——
Have a small bit of respect.
——that the Government must take the actions it will be obliged to take in the future.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
I now call Deputy Cowen, who has five minutes. I ask for silence for the speakers, for whom time is limited, please.
I support the motion tabled by Deputy Calleary. It recognises that soldiers and their families are an essential and integral part of their local economy. Moreover, their facilities are shared by many of their communities. Apart from their conventional role, the Defence Forces are critical in times of emergency to counteract adverse weather, disease and so on. It goes without saying that Members owe a debt of gratitude to the Defence Forces for the goodwill they have afforded the country while on peacekeeping duties abroad. The debate last night and again just now has been amazing. The Minister and his colleagues have deployed the usual tactic to which Members have become accustomed in the past six months. It is the usual mantra and battle-cry that it is not the Government's fault but that it was walked into it.
The Deputy is dead right.
(Interruptions).
Order, please.
Fianna Fáil has no shame at all.
Deputies, please.
The main thrust of that hypocrisy is that Fianna Fáil is being hypocritical in respect of barracks closure. The motion itself acknowledges that Fianna Fáil closed barracks. It recognises "the consolidation of Army barracks over the past number of years due to the changed security situation in Northern Ireland and the consequent reinvestment of those funds" to modernise the Defence Forces. Fianna Fáil acknowledges the previous Government made hard choices, delivered difficult budgets and passed severe Finance Acts. Moreover, it was not done in the interests of Fianna Fáil but in the interests of the country. Fianna Fáil Members, more than Members opposite, know what culpability is about. More than most, they are aware of the political consequences and it is high time Members opposite began to see that and recognise that as it approaches.
(Interruptions).
Order, please.
This week, the Central Bank produced reasonable figures. I refer to slightly better unemployment figures, a small degree of growth in the economy and better economic projections. Why is this? As the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, said, the Government has implemented last year's budget and Finance Act. However, he does not tell too many people how vehemently he and his colleagues opposed the Finance Bill and the four-year plan. The Government wants it both ways. It wants two jerseys to be on both teams. It speaks out of both sides of its mouth.
No, we do not.
It is coming to an end and Government has only a short while to wait because the reviews of the Departments are complete — they have not been published and will not be published.
They will be published.
However, it will need to make a few choices apart from these. It will need to bring in its own budget and make its own decisions, which will not be popular and will fly in the face of all the populist commitments Government Members made when they were going around the country in February. We will see then what they are made of. They were elected in such numbers.
That says something, does it not?
They will tell the people that things were not as they thought they were.
The IMF is not coming. Does the Deputy remember who said that?
Even though the books were made available and the Ministers, Deputies Noonan and Burton, reviewed them, they will tell the people they were bound by the IMF and EU agreement despite having promised to turn it upside down. They will say they were hamstrung by the memoranda of agreement.
(Interruptions).
Order.
However, they are not set in stone. The Minister for Finance says he got no extra revenue, but he came back flying the flag after saving €1 billion from the rate reduction achieved by accident rather than design. The Government will not give that to Mullingar, Kilkenny or Clonmel. In essence those of us on this side of the House can look forward to various acts of humility around the country when Government Members go back to Mullingar, Cavan, Kilkenny and Clonmel——
Fianna Fáil let the IMF in through the backdoor and did not tell the truth.
——and tell the people there how they committed to keep Army barracks in February, but could not stand by them here tonight. One Minister described this proposal as crass stupidity and I could not agree with him more along with many others here. We will see what they are made of when they go to Cabinet next Tuesday and he is left on his own. I wonder why the Labour Party benches are empty tonight.
I welcome the opportunity to take part in this lively debate. For my part and on behalf of the people I represent I acknowledge the very fine work done my members of the Defence Forces over generations since the foundation of the State. We all owe them a great debt of gratitude. That unites all of us in this House because we have a common purpose in what they serve and what we serve in representing them. Internationally on their foreign missions, for example with the UN in Lebanon and our missions to Chad they have done outstanding work. We should take every opportunity to highlight that they have done us all proud.
They have supported many voluntary groups and organisations locally. They helped out at the time of the big freeze and when we had flooding. Regarding community events, they will attend country fairs and markets when asked. When they are requested they always show up. They are an integral part of the fabric of our society and we need to have an honest debate about the future of our Defence Forces, which has been lacking. The comprehensive spending review which has been under way for some months has been mentioned. Last week during Leaders' Questions and on the Order of Business we heard that the review will not be published, which is a disgrace. If decisions are to be taken about the future of our Army personnel and their families based on a comprehensive spending review, that information should be published and we should all have the opportunity to have an informed debate rather than the ding-dong of who closed what and when over the years. That does not do the people who are in the Visitors Gallery any good nor does it do any good for members of the Defence Forces or their families.
When Army barracks are closed we continue to own those barracks and we still need to pay the personnel. We need to maintain the buildings, and pay for insurance and other overheads. What is to be achieved by closing Army barracks and transferring the personnel? The local communities will suffer a loss of business and commerce. The entire fabric of the local community will be affected right down to the schools. It will lead to upheaval for families. If internal military briefings are taking place highlighting that people will need to be moved, lifestyle choices will be taken without people being informed as to the basis upon which those decisions should be taken, which is wrong in anybody's language. Decisions should be taken in an open and transparent fashion with people fully informed.
I want to mention Sarsfield Barracks in Limerick city. I ask the Minister of State present tonight whether the future of those barracks is guaranteed. While it is not in my constituency, but in the neighbouring constituency of Limerick City, I represent many of the personnel who serve there and their family members who live in my constituency.
While we are discussing barracks, what is the position on Garda barracks? We have heard much of Garda stations tonight. I could list the places in my constituency affected, including Murroe, Doon, Cappamore, Croom and Askeaton. I have read newspaper reports of Fine Gael local authority members rightly making the case as to why they should be kept open. We need an open and transparent debate on that matter also.
People are saying this debate is cynical and opportunist, which I resent. It is our duty as it was the duty of Government Members when they were on this side of the House. They raised issues of public importance and of concern to the citizens, which is exactly what we are doing here tonight as we are duty bound to do. It is a disgrace for them to say we are being cynical and opportunist. The people in the Visitors Gallery have listened to the Minister of State say we are being opportunist and populist, which is a disgrace and he should withdraw those remarks.
We did not bring the country to economic ruin as Fianna Fáil did.
Please, Minister.
I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. It was inevitable that we would have such a debate very early in the lifetime of the Government. After the false promises of the general election when the people were sold a pup, the parties negotiated the programme for Government. On the first day of the new Dáil and the formation of the Government for the first time in the history of the State we got a Government without a Minister for Defence. We have a Minister for Justice and Equality who does the job of Minister for Defence in his spare time.
He is not here.
That showed the priorities of the Government party leaders on the day the Government was formed. It showed what they thought of the Defence Forces. If anybody has any doubt about the barracks we have discussed, every other town, city and locality with military barracks——
Our Minister has a more proactive approach to defence than any Fianna Fáil Minister ever had.
Order.
——is facing the same because they do not have a full-rank Minister at the Cabinet table with sole responsibility for the Department of Defence. This is coming home to roost now. I want to talk about the Minister with responsibility for this area. He was in the House last week talking about Garda stations. He said that Garda buildings did not matter. He is embarking on a programme to close Garda stations; he has commenced a process to close Army barracks and he has already closed several courthouses around the country in his few months in office. For example, during the summer recess he announced through a sly press release that the courthouse in Portarlington in my constituency was to close. He is closing courthouses, Garda stations and Army barracks, and he will close more. The Defence Forces better watch out.
As has been well rehearsed, we all know there is no economic sense in this. There are no savings on staff — there are additional staff costs because they need to be relocated. There is maintenance of the old buildings which cannot be sold in these economic times. If property was sold during the good economic times, we might have got value for the taxpayer, but the taxpayer will get no value from selling any of these properties. They will need to be protected from vandalism and some of the new barracks into which people will move will need to be upgraded. To facilitate the new staff coming in and for health and safety reasons they will need to be brought up to a higher standard. While there are no barracks in my constituency I am very proud of and happy with the work the Army does on the security of Portlaoise prison.
The Government is hiding behind the EU and IMF on this matter. There is nothing in that deal about closing Army barracks as everybody on the Government side knows. The Government has used the EU and IMF deal for every harsh decision it has had to make. However, it was able to make several decisions that were not contained in that EU and IMF deal.
It brought in a pension levy and robbed the pensioners of their money. It introduced an insurance levy last week to bail out Quinn Insurance. That was not in the IMF deal. Ministers claimed they would cut the airport travel tax, yet that was not in the IMF deal. They closed Roscommon hospital and that was not in the IMF deal.
Roscommon hospital was not closed.
This Government is not committed to the Defence Forces, and it showed that on its first day in office by not appointing a Minister for Defence. Its members will rue the day and this will haunt them for the lifetime of this Government.
Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 94; Níl, 44.
Tá
- Barry, Tom.
- Breen, Pat.
- Broughan, Thomas P.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burton, Joan.
- Butler, Ray.
- Buttimer, Jerry.
- Byrne, Catherine.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Carey, Joe.
- Coffey, Paudie.
- Collins, Áine.
- Conaghan, Michael.
- Conlan, Seán.
- Connaughton, Paul J.
- Conway, Ciara.
- Coonan, Noel.
- Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
- Costello, Joe.
- Coveney, Simon.
- Creed, Michael.
- Daly, Jim.
- Deasy, John.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- Deering, Pat.
- Doherty, Regina.
- Donohoe, Paschal.
- Dowds, Robert.
- Doyle, Andrew.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- English, Damien.
- Farrell, Alan.
- Feighan, Frank.
- Ferris, Anne.
- Fitzpatrick, Peter.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Hannigan, Dominic.
- Harrington, Noel.
- Harris, Simon.
- Hayes, Brian.
- Hayes, Tom.
- Heydon, Martin.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Humphreys, Heather.
- Humphreys, Kevin.
- Keating, Derek.
- Kehoe, Paul.
- Kelly, Alan.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Kyne, Seán.
- Lawlor, Anthony.
- Lynch, Ciarán.
- Lynch, Kathleen.
- Lyons, John.
- McCarthy, Michael.
- McEntee, Shane.
- McFadden, Nicky.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- McLoughlin, Tony.
- Maloney, Eamonn.
- Mathews, Peter.
- Mitchell, Olivia.
- Mitchell O’Connor, Mary.
- Mulherin, Michelle.
- Murphy, Dara.
- Murphy, Eoghan.
- Nash, Gerald.
- Naughten, Denis.
- Neville, Dan.
- Nolan, Derek.
- Noonan, Michael.
- Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
- O’Donnell, Kieran.
- O’Donovan, Patrick.
- O’Dowd, Fergus.
- O’Mahony, John.
- O’Reilly, Joe.
- O’Sullivan, Jan.
- Phelan, Ann.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Reilly, James.
- Ring, Michael.
- Ryan, Brendan.
- Sherlock, Sean.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Stanton, David.
- Timmins, Billy.
- Tuffy, Joanna.
- Twomey, Liam.
- Wall, Jack.
- Walsh, Brian.
- White, Alex.
Níl
- Adams, Gerry.
- Browne, John.
- Calleary, Dara.
- Collins, Niall.
- Colreavy, Michael.
- Cowen, Barry.
- Crowe, Seán.
- Daly, Clare.
- Doherty, Pearse.
- Dooley, Timmy.
- Ellis, Dessie.
- Ferris, Martin.
- Flanagan, Luke ‘Ming’.
- Fleming, Sean.
- Fleming, Tom.
- Halligan, John.
- Healy, Seamus.
- Healy-Rae, Michael.
- Kelleher, Billy.
- Kirk, Seamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Lowry, Michael.
- Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
- McConalogue, Charlie.
- McDonald, Mary Lou.
- McGrath, Finian.
- McGrath, Mattie.
- McGrath, Michael.
- McGuinness, John.
- McLellan, Sandra.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- Murphy, Catherine.
- Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
- Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
- Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
- O’Brien, Jonathan.
- O’Dea, Willie.
- O’Sullivan, Maureen.
- Ross, Shane.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Stanley, Brian.
- Tóibín, Peadar.
- Troy, Robert.
- Wallace, Mick.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Paul Kehoe; Níl, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Seán Ó Fearghaíl.
Amendment declared carried.
Question put: "That the motion, as amended, be agreed to."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 92; Níl, 44.
Tá
- Barry, Tom.
- Breen, Pat.
- Broughan, Thomas P.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burton, Joan.
- Butler, Ray.
- Buttimer, Jerry.
- Byrne, Catherine.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Carey, Joe.
- Coffey, Paudie.
- Collins, Áine.
- Conaghan, Michael.
- Conlan, Seán.
- Connaughton, Paul J.
- Conway, Ciara.
- Coonan, Noel.
- Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
- Coveney, Simon.
- Creed, Michael.
- Daly, Jim.
- Deasy, John.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- Deering, Pat.
- Doherty, Regina.
- Donohoe, Paschal.
- Dowds, Robert.
- Doyle, Andrew.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- English, Damien.
- Farrell, Alan.
- Feighan, Frank.
- Ferris, Anne.
- Fitzpatrick, Peter.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Hannigan, Dominic.
- Harrington, Noel.
- Harris, Simon.
- Hayes, Brian.
- Hayes, Tom.
- Heydon, Martin.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Humphreys, Heather.
- Humphreys, Kevin.
- Keating, Derek.
- Kehoe, Paul.
- Kelly, Alan.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Kyne, Seán.
- Lawlor, Anthony.
- Lynch, Ciarán.
- Lynch, Kathleen.
- Lyons, John.
- McCarthy, Michael.
- McEntee, Shane.
- McFadden, Nicky.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- McLoughlin, Tony.
- Maloney, Eamonn.
- Mathews, Peter.
- Mitchell, Olivia.
- Mitchell O’Connor, Mary.
- Mulherin, Michelle.
- Murphy, Dara.
- Murphy, Eoghan.
- Nash, Gerald.
- Neville, Dan.
- Nolan, Derek.
- Noonan, Michael.
- Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
- O’Donnell, Kieran.
- O’Donovan, Patrick.
- O’Dowd, Fergus.
- O’Mahony, John.
- O’Reilly, Joe.
- O’Sullivan, Jan.
- Phelan, Ann.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Reilly, James.
- Ring, Michael.
- Ryan, Brendan.
- Sherlock, Sean.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Stanton, David.
- Timmins, Billy.
- Tuffy, Joanna.
- Twomey, Liam.
- Wall, Jack.
- Walsh, Brian.
- White, Alex.
Níl
- Adams, Gerry.
- Browne, John.
- Calleary, Dara.
- Collins, Niall.
- Colreavy, Michael.
- Cowen, Barry.
- Crowe, Seán.
- Daly, Clare.
- Doherty, Pearse.
- Dooley, Timmy.
- Ellis, Dessie.
- Ferris, Martin.
- Flanagan, Luke ‘Ming’.
- Fleming, Sean.
- Fleming, Tom.
- Halligan, John.
- Healy, Seamus.
- Healy-Rae, Michael.
- Kelleher, Billy.
- Kirk, Seamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Lowry, Michael.
- Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
- McConalogue, Charlie.
- McDonald, Mary Lou.
- McGrath, Finian.
- McGrath, Mattie.
- McGrath, Michael.
- McGuinness, John.
- McLellan, Sandra.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- Murphy, Catherine.
- Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
- Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
- Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
- O’Brien, Jonathan.
- O’Dea, Willie.
- O’Sullivan, Maureen.
- Ross, Shane.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Stanley, Brian.
- Tóibín, Peadar.
- Troy, Robert.
- Wallace, Mick.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Paul Kehoe; Níl, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Seán Ó Fearghaíl.
Question declared carried.
The Dáil adjourned at 9.20 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 6 October 2011.