Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 12 Oct 2011

Vol. 743 No. 2

Topical Issue Debate

University Rankings

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

My colleague, Deputy Shane Ross, is unable to be in the Chamber for this debate. We are all aware of the serious problems — arguably amounting to a crisis — facing the education sector at both post-primary and third level. I am interested to hear the Government's views, plans or ideas on what can be done to radically improve the performance and educational outcomes at secondary and tertiary levels.

The PISA report issued at the end of last year showed that Ireland has had the largest fall in educational standards in the OECD in a decade. Last week The Times higher education world university rankings included bad news for our universities. None of the ranking systems is perfect, but The Times process is seen by many as one of the best, if not the best. It showed Trinity College Dublin falling from position 76 to 117; UCD falling from 94 to 159; UCC and NUI Galway falling out of the top 300; and DCU and the DIT falling out of the top 400. We have also had various reports and statements from senior business people in Ireland, including senior management in large multinationals, expressing the view that Irish graduates are not faring well by comparison with international peers. This is of great concern to us all.

Part of the reason for the decline in performance at third level is that increased student numbers have coincided with decreased funding. Third level budgets have been reduced by up to 9% in the last three years and there have been staff reductions of 6%. At the same time, first year enrolments are up 15% since 2008, with a projected 30% increase in student numbers in the next decade. The Hunt report suggested that an additional €500 million would be needed to plug the gap in funding by 2020. That is a Herculean task in the current context. Also, there has been a report that the Higher Education Authority will state next month that our higher education system will be unable to compete internationally or deal with that projected 30% increase in student numbers without a quantum leap in funding. That is worrying for everybody.

There are some actions we can take to bring about a major change, and we need a serious change. We are not looking for a marginal change. We need to take a leap and I would like to see the Government set an ambitious target of, say, having two universities in the top 40 within five years. I do not know what the right target is but it should very ambitious.

We must emphasise teaching. Conversations I have had with academics in some of our universities have indicated that in terms of career advancement teaching is not taken seriously, which is huge problem, and the level of training for academic staff to become outstanding teachers does not exist. We must hold academic staff more accountable. The students must be able to hold them accountable. The management within the universities does and, ultimately, the Government through the Higher Education Authority.

The Government could play a great role in helping the universities to fund-raise. Some of the universities that do very well in the United States, for example, have extremely sophisticated fund-raising mechanisms in place for their alumni. As an alumnus of an Irish university I do not see that happening. If the fees must increase I would like to see the Government provide grants along the lines of the United Kingdom model whereby a very low or zero interest grant is made which the graduates only pays back when their salary reaches a certain amount.

The professional management within the universities must be given the freedom and the control to motivate their staff, find the best staff, pay what is required to get the best staff and then hold that staff accountable to ensure change. I am interested to hear the Government's views on this issue.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

As Deputy Donnelly points out, the issue of rankings has been a hot topic in recent weeks as both The Times and the QS rankings have been published. Ranking systems in general must be interpreted with a certain degree of caution as criteria differences or even slight changes in the weighting given to a particular criterion between one set of rankings and another can have material differences on outcomes on different league tables. For example, Cambridge University came out top of the QS rankings while Caltech tops The Times latest higher education rankings.

This is evident when we examine the relative positions of Irish universities in these two rankings. Trinity College Dublin, for example, sits at No. 65 in the QS rankings but at 117 in The Times rankings. These anomalies generate significant debate around the relative importance attached to rankings criteria and on their capacity to fully capture the quality of what is on offer in a higher education institution. Notwithstanding these reservations, it is recognised that league tables are referenced by international investors, employers and students as a marker of quality across systems and, as such, they cannot be ignored. We can continue to draw some encouragement from the fact that two institutions in Ireland are still in The Times top 200 higher education ranked institutions and four Irish institutions were in the recently published top 300 QS ranked universities, out of some 15,000 universities worldwide.

There is naturally a focus on the fall in the ranking positions of Trinity College Dublin and University College Dublin on The Times latest HE table, notwithstanding their continuing strong showings which places them in the top 1% of institutions worldwide. It must be recognised that efficiency improvements across Irish higher education institutions have been a necessary part of their response to the changed economic climate. In this regard, staffing reductions have been achieved simultaneously to increases in student numbers. These efficiency gains have been delivered for the benefit of Irish students and taxpayers. It is acknowledged they also have a related impact on the ratings of Irish institutions based on The Times HE ranking criteria, given that those criteria include direct input measures of staff student ratios.

Even in a climate of managing public service numbers and costs, it is important to emphasise that the operation of necessary staffing restrictions in the higher education sector has been implemented in an exceptional manner that maximises the latitude of institutions to fill front-line posts and maintains their freedom to fill externally funded and revenue generating posts. While some higher education systems have invested heavily in elite institutions and adopted a policy of differentiated support for different tiers of institutions, our focus is on sustaining and advancing performance across the system.

In this regard, we can draw a degree of encouragement from the overall performance of the Irish system on The Times latest HE system performance tables which place Ireland firmly in the world’s top 20. We are ranked 17th overall and are ranked 6th in the world relative to our GDP. It is also encouraging to note that in separate international measures of system performance, the Irish higher education system ranked first out of 28 countries in terms of the way international employers rate our graduates for employability. We also ranked highly for the efficiency of our system.

I am anxious to move the debate around the performance of our higher education system on to a more outcome focused space. The overall quality of the graduates we produce and the responsiveness of our institutions to a range of external demands is what we must concentrate on. The strategy we are now embarking on for the development and reform of higher education aims to enhance autonomy, innovation, accountability — to which the Deputy referred — and performance across the system. It is an important agenda and I thank Deputy Donnelly for raising it today.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

With respect, most of what I just heard from the Minister of State was a defence of the Irish third level system such as that we are in the top 1% worldwide. Is that the mindset when we have had this extraordinarily bad news in terms of international rankings in our secondary schools and our universities? I am worried to hear a Government which has just come into office and which does not have to defend anything because it did not run the system that got us into this position say that broadly we are okay, we are in the top 1% and we still have two institutions in the top 200. That does not ease my concerns. I am not hearing any vision, ambition or acceptance that this is an incredibly difficult and dangerous situation and that we must start to take bold moves.

There was a generic statement about autonomy and performance but I did not hear a single idea. I did not hear the Minister of State say that we are in big trouble, we have no money and student numbers are rising. Nor did I hear him outline the great initiatives the Government intends to undertake and that have been done in Oxford, Cambridge or some of the Ivy League colleges in the United States. If I was the chief executive of one of the large multinational companies here I would not take any solace from what I have heard.

Does the Minister of State accept that the situation is very serious? Does he also accept that we need a step change and that we must set a bold challenge for our universities? Can he outline some of the ideas he believes might start to get us to that position in the next 12 to 24 months?

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I would not go as far as to describe it as a difficult and dangerous situation. The Deputy referred to the success in the international rankings of the Ivy League colleges in the United States in particular. One has to conclude that is because they are incredibly well funded through the alumni system, as the Deputy mentioned, and that is an area we must examine. I was speaking to two or three members of staff from one of our universities over the weekend and they suggested that is something on which we must seriously focus and that we did not genuinely tap into that source of funding in the past. I will take on board the Deputy's suggestion.

I would argue that the Ivy League colleges are incredibly elitist. As far as I am aware the fees associated with them are particularly expensive and only a certain sector of the population in the US can gain access to those colleges.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

Not true.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

What we are trying to do here is provide for a high level of outcome across the third level sector and in further education in particular at a time when we have limited resources. As the system expands in coming years, which it will because the numbers entering third level are thankfully increasing, it is important that we maintain the focus on high quality outcomes. That will require some difficult decisions and the need for innovative and lateral thinking also. I assure the Deputy that this Government is more than capable of engaging in that kind of thinking but at all times we must focus on equity of access and the quality of outcomes.

I was in Singapore and Malaysia recently attempting to sell — it was not difficult — Irish higher education abroad, particularly in south east Asia.

We have a very valuable brand when it comes to international education. I concede that university league tables are used by some governments when assessing to which countries it should send their students. At the same time I recall meeting a business man in Singapore during that visit who said that the high skills levels that all Irish students have, irrespective of their background discipline, in communication, decision making and management makes them highly employable. We are providing a high quality of education across the whole system but I concede that we face challenges that need to be addressed by engaging in lateral thinking that the Deputies suggested.

Oibreacha Athchóirithe Scoileanna

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Mar is eol don Aire Stáit, bhí muid ag caint faoin gceist seo ar 28 Meitheamh. Tá mé ar ais arís anois agus níl aon athrú ar an scéal. Bhí an Teachta romham ag caint ar oideachas triú leibhéal ach is í fírinne an scéil ná an rud a shocraíonn cé chomh maith a dhéanann scoláirí ná an t-oideachas bunleibhéal. Tá na saineolaithe ar fad ar aon tuairim, má éiríonn le daoine oideachas maith bunleibhéal a fháil, éireoidh leo sa dara leibhéal agus sa triú leibhéal freisin. Mar sin, creidim go bhfuil sé thar a bheith tábhachtach go ndíreoidh muid ar leibhéal na bunscoile.

Ní gá domsa dul siar ar scéal scoil an Bhaile Nua. Is scoil Gaeltachta í a bhí i gceist í a dhúnadh, ach níor dúnadh í. Tá ceithre oide sa scoil. Fuair an scoil deontas ón Rialtas deiridh le cuí a chur ar an scoil, ach tá seomra ilúsaidte ag teastáil. Dúirt an tAire Stáit liom anocht nach raibh an t-airgead ann leis an seomra a thógáil. Tá roinnt obreacha breise ag teastáil chomh maith — go hiomlán €790 le gach uile rud a bheadh le déanamh sa scoil. Cheana fein, tá an obair tosaithe ar an méid a bhí ceadaithe. Rinne mé scrúdú ar chaiteachas na Roinne, agus mar a tharlaíonn chuile bliain — ní eisceacht ar bith an bhliain seo — níl caiteachas na Roinne ag teacht i gcomhréir leis an méid airgid a bhí ar fáil. Tar éis 75% den bhliain a bheith caite, níl ach 71% den airgead caite ag an Roinn fós. Agus mar a tharla anuraidh, ag deireadh na bliana tabharfaidh an Roinn €16 mhilliún ar ais don Státchiste. Fós, táthar ag rá nach féidir cúpla céad míle euro a thabhairt do scoil atá i mbun oibre i láthair na huaire agus a bhféadfadh an obair seo a dhéanamh roimh dheireadh na bliana — jab ceart críochnúil — agus leis an seomra ilúsáidte agus na seomraí eile atá ag teastáil a chur ar fáil.

Mar a dúirt mé, tá an scoil seo i gceantar atá ag fás. Is ceantar é Maigh Chuilinn nach bhfuil ach deich míle nó 12 míle ó Ghaillimh. Tá daonra an-láidir sa cheantar agus tá fás air agus is scoil Gaeltachta atá inti. Is creidiúint í do phobal na háite agus do na múinteoirí sa scoil go bhfuil an stadás Gaeltachta coinnithe, ainneoin an méid brú daonra atá ar an cheantar.

Táim ag iarraidh ar Aire Stáit dhá rud a dhéanamh. Má dhéanann sé an chéad rud, ní gá dó an dara rud a dhéanamh. An chéad rud atá mé ag iarraidh air a dhéanamh ná an t-airgead a cheadú. Tá an t-airgead ag an Roinn. Níl an Roinn ag caitheamh an méid airgid atá curtha ar fáil i soláthar na Roinne. Fuair mé freagra ar cheist pharlaiminte an tseachtain seo caite a dheireann nach bhfuil ag éirí leis an Roinn an t-airgead a chaitheamh. Tá an t-airgead ag an Roinn. In ainm Dé, ná tabhair ar ais don Roinn Airgeadais aon airgead, fiú tada é. Breathnaigh ag an am seo den bhliain ar na tograí beaga a bhféadfaí a dhéanamh go tapaidh — go bhfuil cead pleanála ann lena n-aghaidh agus a bhféadfaí a dhéanamh láithreach agus ceadaigh iad, in ionad an t-airgead a thabhairt ar ais don Roinn Airgeadais.

An dara rud atá mé ag iarraidh ar an Aire Stáit a dhéanamh — má cheadaíonn sé an t-airgead, ní gá é a dhéanamh — ná cuairt a thabhairt ar an scoil. Thug mé cuireadh dó cheana cuairt a thabhairt ar an scoil. Nuair a fheicfidh sé láthair na scoile agus an obair atá ag teastáil agus na seomraí ranga atá sa scoil cheana féin, tá mé cinnte go n-aontóidh sé láithreach go mba ceart an t-airgead breise seo a chur ar fáil. Déanfar an obair láithreach agus cuirfear na billí isteach. Má cheadaíonn an tAire Stáit an obair seo tráthnóna inniu, rachaidh mé caol díreach ar ais chuig bord bainistíochta na scoile agus déarfaidh mé leo go bhfuil sé fíor-phráinneach go mbeidh an obair seo réitithe agus na billí istigh roimh an Nollaig le gur féidir leis an tAire Stáit an t-airgead a íoc amach as an farasbarr airgid atá fágtha ag an Roinn i láthair na huaire sa chiste.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

Táim ag freagairt na ceiste seo thar ceann mo chomhghleacaí, an t-Aire Oideachais agus Scileanna, an Teachta Ruairi Quinn. Gabhaim mo bhuíochas leis an Teachta as an cheist a ardú mar go dtugann se deis dom an scéal mar atá se faoi láthair a shoiléiriú maidir leis an iarratas athmhaoiniú mór caipitil do Scoil Bhaile Nua, Maigh Cuilinn.

Mar is eol don Teachta, chuir údaras na scoile iarratas faoi bhráid ar mhaoiniú mór caipitil do shíneadh le haghaidh nuachóiriú agus oibreacha athchóirithe.

Mar chuid den phróiséas measúnaithe, sanntar rátáil banda do thionscadal faoi chritéir fhoilsithe tosaíochta i gcómhair tionscadal togála ar scála mór. Ceaptar na critéir seo tar éis dul i gcómhairle leis na comhpháirtithe oideachais.

Gluaiseann tionscadal togála tríd an gcóras ar cóimhéid leis an rátáil banda a sannadh dó. Tá ceithre rátálacha banda ann ar fad, agus is é banda a haon an ceann is áirde agus is é banda a ceathar an ceann is ísle. Sannadh rátáil banda de 2.5 don tionscadal do Scoil Bhaile Nua.

As the Deputy is aware, my Department is forecasting an increase of over 45,050 primary pupils and 24,900 post-primary pupils by the start of the 2017-18 school year. In order to meet the needs of our growing population of school going children, we will have to establish 40 new schools, as well as extending a number of existing schools. The estimated capital cost of the establishment of the new schools is in the region of €380 million and the programme of delivery will include some PPP projects. There will also be additional school extension projects which will be needed to cater for the growing school going population. It is that context that the progression of all large scale building projects, including this project, from initial design stage through to construction phase will be considered and its progression is contingent on the availability of funding within the Department's multi-annual school building and modernisation programme and the competing demands for this funding.

Subsequent to the receipt of the major capital application referred to above, the school applied in March 2010 for one additional mainstream classroom. The Department approved a grant for this classroom in the amount of €100,000 and the school has drawn down 100% of the grant as the extension is complete. In addition, an ICT grant of €5,000 for the new classroom was also approved and the funding has been drawn down by the school. Scoil Bhaile Nua is a four teacher school and enrolments are stable. In September 2010, the school authority applied for further significant funding to replace a temporary classroom, expand existing classrooms and provide ancillary accommodation including a general purpose room. The school authority was advised that it was not possible to facilitate the request at that time. With the approval of the additional classroom, the school's accommodation will consist of four mainstream classrooms and a further room to be used as a multi-purpose resource room.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Having listened to the Minister of State's response it is clear he did not listen to what I said. It is clear the Department of Education and Skills did not make even cursory inquiries because this is a devolved scheme and has nothing to do with the major capital projects. It does not matter how many schools will be built next year or in the following years, the issue is, as I pointed out, that only 71% of this year's budget has been spent despite the fact that three quarters of the year is over. If the Department continues to spend less than its budget, it will wind up with a surplus of €60 million that must be returned to the Department of Finance. That money will not be available for next year's projects, as we both know.

My suggestion is that we take advantage of the fact that the builders are on the site. The Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, when in Opposition stated clearly it was a disgrace that prefabs were in use in any school. My argument is that by sanctioning the money now for the works that the school proposes, the work could be done and paid for by Christmas. If that money is not spent by the end of the year it must return to the Department ofFinance.

This has nothing to do with the list of schools seeking funding for major capital projects. That is irrelevant. Any person with good management skills in the Department would give the go-ahead for a small top-up grant when projects with planning permission and builders on site request permission to get on with the job. The information on the demographic profile of the school-going population and the need for major capital projects is irrelevant to the case I was making.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

The Deputy raised the issue of an unspent capital budget in the Department as if it was a new revelation that had not been apparent to the Minister. The previous Government continued to accept this was normal practice over many years. In November 2010 it was established just over €50 million remained unspent in the schools building budget. It is a pity the former Minister did not try to access the money at that time for Scoil Bhaile Nua. The accommodation requirements in the Moycullen area, as referred to by the Deputy, have been studied and a close analysis has been done. It indicates there will be no requirement for any additional accommodation in the area in the short to medium term.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

There is no GP room in the school.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

Despite what the Deputy said, the Department also considered that the school's existing accommodation, now that the extension is complete, is sufficient to meet its essential mainstream classroom and learning support needs.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

There is no GP room in the school.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

There are no GP rooms in many schools.

Adult Education

Deputy John O’Mahony

I thank the Minister for attending the House to debate this issue. I wish to put it in context. A lot of debate on social welfare in recent weeks has centred on eliminating fraud and fraudulent claims. I support the Minister's actions and ambitions in this area. I want to discuss the other side of the coin.

The Minister said she wants to eliminate fraud in order that people who deserve payments would receive them. I refer to the back to education allowance. When the unemployment crisis hit a number of years ago people were encouraged to upskill and go back to education. In many cases because of criteria that were suitable five years ago but not now people are not allowed to return to education. I could provide the Minister with many examples but I do not have time.

A young graduate who is qualified in heritage studies had a job for a few years in a county council. She has young children and lost her job. She has been in receipt of the jobseeker's allowance for the past few years. She now wants to do a simple PLC course to get a job in health care and work in a nursing home. She showed me letters which guaranteed her employment by next June if she was able to complete a course. She was five weeks into the course when her back to education allowance payments were suspended. She is now in receipt of the jobseeker's allowance again. By next June she will have no chance of leaving the live register and no job.

Removing the option will impact on people in such situations. People have served apprenticeships in building and construction and are on level 6 of a course, many of whom are in receipt of the jobseeker's allowance. They will no longer be in a position to receive the back to education allowance or avail of FETAC level 5 or PLC courses. Many were hoping to do so in order to upskill. As the rules currently stand, such people are expected to progress to third level education, which they have been out of for many years. It does not fit with what they need at this point in time.

In the past social welfare facilitators made recommendations but that system seems to be gone, something of which I am aware from speaking to such people in the past few weeks. I ask the Minister to examine the criteria. I am not trying to accommodate people who want to be eternal students and continue to do courses at the same level. I am referring to people who want to do courses that will help them to get employment, yet because they are currently outside the criteria they cannot be accommodated and will cost the State thousands of euro. Such people have no qualifications or employment as a result.

Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Joan Burton)

The back to education allowance, BTEA, scheme is a second chance education opportunities scheme designed to remove the barriers to participation in second and third level education by enabling eligible people on certain social welfare payments to continue to receive a payment while pursuing an approved full-time education course that leads to a higher qualification than that already held.

The number of participants engaged with the BTEA has grown steadily in recent years. In the 2010-11 academic year there were 25,032 participants costing just under €200 million, which represented an increase of 20.3% on the previous year, which comprised 20,808 participants. The 2009-10 academic year saw a dramatic increase of 79% on the previous year. As of 30 September 2011, there were 18,440 participants availing of the scheme. Final figures for the current academic year are not yet available as claims are still being processed. However, it is expected that the participation level will increase this year. The budget for BTEA in 2011 is €198.8 million, which represents an increase of over 10% on 2010 expenditure which was €179.85 million.

A person who wants to pursue BTEA will have to satisfy a number of conditions. These include being a certain age; being in receipt of a prescribed social welfare payment for a specified time period; pursuing a full-time course of study leading to a recognised qualification in a recognised college; and progressing in the level of education held by the client with reference to the national framework of qualifications, among others.

In general, to qualify an applicant must be in receipt of a relevant social welfare payment and be at least 21 years of age, or 24 years in the case of post graduate courses, prior to commencing an approved course of study. However, lone parents and persons in receipt of jobseekers payments can qualify at 18 years of age provided they are out of formal education for at least two years.

The qualifying period for the second level option of the scheme has remained at three months, in recognition of the need for more urgent intervention in the case of people who have not completed formal second level education. With effect from 19 July 2010, the period for which a person is required to be on a qualifying social welfare payment before accessing third level education under the BTEA was reduced from 12 months to nine. A two year qualifying period continues to apply to participants claiming illness benefit. Since 2007, people who are awarded statutory redundancy may access the BTEA immediately, provided an entitlement to a relevant social welfare payment is established prior to commencing an approved course of study.

A waiting period is considered essential given that the BTEA confers an entitlement to income support for an extended period and avoids establishing a pull factor to the live register. It is also considered necessary as it reduces unnecessary provision for those who will leave the live register in any event, in the context of targeting scarce resources at those who need it most.

State support for education purposes is grounded on the principle of a student progressing from one qualification level to a higher one. This is necessary to ensure displacement does not occur, in that courses could be offered to students who are not progressing at the cost of students progressing from a lower education level. It should be noted that in the 2010-11 academic year, of the 25,032 participants supported through the BTEA, 43% pursued second level courses. Furthermore, the scheme was never intended to be an alternative form of funding for people entering or re-entering the third level education system.

However, there are options for those who wish to pursue part-time education courses. I do not know if this might be of assistance to Deputy O'Mahony's constituent but she might be able to do so while retaining her jobseeker's payment. She must apply at her local social welfare office and verify that participation in the course does not reduce her availability for work.

In the case of jobseeker's benefit, participation on a course does not grant any extension to the normal period for which jobseeker's benefit is paid. It should also be noticed that the Springboard initiative, administered by the Department of Education and Skills, which was announced as part of the Government's jobs initiative, is aimed at unemployed people with a previous history of employment who already hold a higher level qualification at NFQ levels 6 to 9 who may also require additional upskilling or re-skilling to enter employment. By way of the part-time education option, unemployed people on jobseeker's payments will be facilitated in retaining their payment subject to continuing entitlement within the broader back to education framework. The BTEA, in conjunction with other employment support schemes, will be monitored on an ongoing basis to ensure it continues to meet its objectives.

Deputy John O’Mahony

The key point in this example is that the present criteria discriminate against those with a university degree who cannot get employment who are trying to reskill to find employment. The Minister made the good point recently that she does not want to facilitate those who see social welfare as a lifestyle choice. The example I have mentioned is forcing this person to stay on social welfare. The discretion with the social welfare facilitator has gone. In the long-term for this small group, there must be a way to facilitate them in a way that makes savings for the Department because it will take people off the live register.

Deputy Joan Burton

I appreciate Deputy O'Mahony's remarks. All the schemes operated by the Department are under review in the context of the comprehensive expenditure review. We are currently spending around €200 million on 25,000 people who are pursuing back to education schemes. There is a general educational principle that if people have reached third level and if there are others who have not completed second level, when it comes to the allocation of scarce resources, account must be taken of the latter. In the next few months, however, the labour services side of FÁS will be transferred into the Department of Social Protection. We will set up this new national service for social welfare entitlements and advice for those who wish to take up opportunities. In that context, I would be happy to look at this. I stress, however, that people who already have a third level education can look at the part-time option, particularly in VECs.

The Deputy appreciates that the back to education allowance is primarily for those who did not have the opportunity to complete second level or attend third level; it is for their progression. I understand the context in which the Deputy raises the issue and I will look at it when we are developing the national service.

Deputy John O’Mahony

These people are trapped at the moment and cannot get out of the trap.

Deputy Joan Burton

I heard the Deputy's remarks about the facilitators and they are an important source of information so I will talk to some of them.

Grant Payments

Deputy Paul J. Connaughton

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for the opportunity to speak on this and I thank the Minister for being here to reply.

In recent weeks I have been inundated with calls from farmers on the length of time it has taken to get payments such as REPS and AEOS payments, which have been through due process and paid out. It stems from a problem with the digitisation of maps and other issues and at this point it is difficult to understand how a new mapping system could be causing such lengthy delays. It causes great concern, anger and frustration among the farming community and I call the Minister to do whatever he can to rectify this issue as soon as possible.

As the Minister and those who have a knowledge of the farming community know, in many cases the money has already been spent, sometimes on compliance with the AEOS scheme or in the last number of months to purchase fertiliser or to make silage. This money may now be owed to contractors or co-operatives, putting huge financial pressure on farmers. Some farmers might also have family members at college who would be expecting this money in recent months and will have budgeted for it.

Another issue causing great frustration is the lack of feedback from the Department. Many farmers who have been on to me submitted their applications many months ago only to find recently there is a problem with the application now. Surely this information should have been relayed to the applicant immediately, easing the frustration and the backlog in the Department. I suggest a lack of communication between relevant sections within the Department is causing this information blackout for farmers. Also, the way of communicating with the Department must be improved. Many farmers are being given a freephone number which leads them on a merry-go-round and leaves them with more questions than answers. They might have to telephone Portlaoise and then telephone another Department office, their file might be in one office and then they are told it is in another office. Instead of getting concrete answers, they are left asking where their files are and what point the application is at.

The biggest fear amongst farmers is that this delay will affect other payments such as the single farm payment, which is of huge importance to the farming community, and I ask the Minister to make sure the first 50% of this payment is paid out on time. I understand the Minister has only been in his position for a short time and I have no doubt he is still finding his feet but we must look to the future on this issue to make sure this does not happen again next year. I suggest a streamlining of the payment system so it could be centralised, which would make the processing of these applications more efficient so from the moment a person makes an application, he or she can easily track the file and any issues that might arise and if corrections must be made there would be an opportunity to fix them so the file could be resubmitted and payment received as soon as possible.

I thank the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government for granting a two week extension to the spreading of slurry due to extremely wet weather. This issue was causing great concern and a common sense approach has won out.

I congratulate the Minister on his first six months in the job and I know he is passionate about this industry and the potential that lies within it and I understand that these issues predate his getting the job. The agri-sector is doing well at the moment but for some farmers, especially those in disadvantaged areas, these payments are of huge importance and I ask the Minister to try and find resolutions to these problems as soon as possible.

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Simon Coveney)

At the outset, I wish to state categorically that there are no delays in payments to farmers under the big schemes, the single farm payment scheme or the disadvantaged areas scheme. In the case of the single payment, the earliest payment date under the governing EU rules is 1 December, while in respect of disadvantaged areas, there is no regulatory payment date. It is generally recognised, however, and indeed acknowledged in the farmers' charter, that a payment target of late September of the year in question is the most realistic. These dates are not only being respected but the current level and date of payments is ahead of that schedule.

In the case of the single farm payment, it should be remembered that the earliest payment date provided for under EU rules is 1 December. As I am particularly conscious of the difficulties caused for farmers by the current financial crisis and am also acutely aware of the significance to the wider rural economy of the single payment, earlier this year I successfully sought the approval of the Commissioner to have advance payments made as and from 17 October, a full six weeks earlier than the normal commencement date. This is the earliest possible legal date for making payments; it is actually the start of the new EU financial year.

I am satisfied that arrangements are well advanced to ensure the maximum number of SFP applicants are paid their 50% advance payment as and from 17 October. Furthermore, total expenditure under the 2011 single farm payment will reach €1.2 billion by 31 December. This is much sooner that many other member states, who only commence their payments in December and who are then allowed to finalise them by the legal deadline of June 2012. Next week alone, €444 million will be paid out in single farm payments.

With regard to the disadvantaged areas scheme, Deputies will be aware that payments commenced, on target, on 22 September, with payments issuing to those farmers whose applications had been confirmed eligible for payment at that time. I can confirm that my Department has, in the interim, continued to pay individuals as their cases became clear, with payment runs taking place twice a week. This is normal practice and will continue on an ongoing basis, as necessary.

I am pleased to note that payments worth in excess of €173 million have issued to date, representing almost 80% of applicants and are well ahead of the equivalent period in 2010. We are almost €50 million ahead of where we were this time last year. We are trying to drive efficiency and improvement in services this year compared with last year, and we are succeeding, both in single farm payment and disadvantaged area payment. This is despite the fact that I know some farmers are frustrated. Points of clarification are needed on mapping, stocking rates, eligibility and over-claims. We are redoubling our efforts to ensure those issues are ironed out as quickly as possible so that payments can be made.

For all payments that have a significant EU funding element, whether it is the single farm payment which is 100% EU funded or other schemes that are co-funded, we must cross every t and dot every i, and make sure that every map is properly digitised and that maps for schemes such as the agri-environment options scheme, AEOS, and disadvantaged area payments match the maps for single farm payments. Every payment we make will be audited and if we make mistakes we will be fined or our funding allocation will be reduced, which means less money for farmers.

I am aware there is frustration and I have had multiple meetings in my Department to try to ensure that we remove barriers to quick decision making and to get information back to farmers as quickly as possible in all schemes. I am also aware there is a particular concern in regard to AEOS, where payments have begun. Up to 3,000 people have received their payment for the last three months of last year, which were due over the summer. We have significant and complex mapping problems which need to be rectified, and are being rectified. Payments are being made, as we speak, on a twice-weekly basis. We will continue to redouble our efforts to make sure that happens.

AEOS is a new scheme. It was put in place by the previous Government. It is a much more complex scheme to implement and map than REPS was, for example. REPS was a dream scheme in many ways. The new scheme has, unfortunately, resulted in complex mapping and digitisation issues, which have taken time to resolve. We have put more resources, effort and emphasis on getting those issues resolved as quickly as possible, and I will continue to ensure that farmers, many of whom need and want this money and are relying on getting it, will be paid as soon as possible.

There is no lethargy or tardiness in my Department with regard to this issue. We are well ahead of last year's figures and will continue to try to improve efficiency, because it can be improved. We are well on our way to doing that.

Deputy Paul J. Connaughton

I welcome what the Minister has said, particularly his assurance that the single farm payment is on track. That will be welcome news. I also welcome his assurance regarding the problems of the digitisation of maps, whether for AEOS or REPS. I accept that the Minister and his officials are doing everything they can. The scheme predates his appointment as Minister. I accept that all barriers will be removed as soon as possible. I merely cite what farmers tell me. They say they are sent amendment forms which they return thinking they have fixed a problem, only to learn weeks later that the problem has arisen again. This is leading to frustration and anger.

I welcome the Minister's comments. I hope any delay in the digitisation of maps can be taken care of in the next number of weeks and those farmers who are due payment will receive it as soon as possible.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I understand from where the Deputy is coming. In his part of the country there is a high number of farmers who are reliant on REPS, AEOS, disadvantaged area payments and less favoured area, LFA, payments. The income from these schemes, which farmers rely on, is hugely important to rural communities, particularly in the part of County Galway the Deputy represents so well.

We are conscious of farmers' concerns. We saw their frustrations boil over this week, which was unfortunate. I understand the frustrations of the farming community. We are moving through the applications as quickly as we can. No effort is being spared. The proof of this is where we stand this year compared to where we stood last year in terms of overall payments. With regard to disadvantaged area payments, we are between €45 million and €50 million ahead of where we were last year. In terms of single farm payment, by the end of next week we will be more than €40 million ahead of where we were last year.

We have particular issues with regard to AEOS relating to the land parcel identification system. This takes paper maps which are sent to the Department, digitises them and puts them onto a computer so that the Department will have everyone's land parcels on computer and can process future payments more quickly. That is the purpose of digitising this information. We also need to digitise information so that we can directly compare maps that have been used for single farm payment with those used for AEOS. A huge number of maps have not matched up, so that field parcels do not look the same for single farm payments and AEOS payments. That is not because of a deliberate attempt to con the system. It is simply that the way maps were marked has caused conflicting information. This must be clarified because it will be audited. The last thing I want is for money that is currently available for AEOS payments to be reduced by the Commission because we are not seen to be doing our job efficiently.

The implementation of AEOS is particularly complex. We are in the first year of getting payments out. There have been teething problems and it has caused much frustration in the Department. The people who are in charge of resolving those issues are working incredibly hard to do that. I speak to them directly on a regular basis in an effort to be of assistance.

I assure farmers and those who represent them, as well as the Deputy, that my Department and I are well aware of the points he makes today. We are also keeping farming bodies aware of progress and stumbling blocks on a regular basis. There is not a lack of information or communication in this regard.

Sitting suspended at 4.40 p.m. and resumed at 6 p.m.