Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 3 Nov 2011

Vol. 745 No. 3

Leaders’ Questions

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Tá a fhios ag an Tánaiste an leagan a úsáidtear san iarthar, bhí orthu dul ar an mbád bán. The Tánaiste is probably familiar with a saying about emigration common in the west of Ireland, which is that people had to take the bád bán. Forced emigration and unemployment are two of the biggest challenges that we face. The Government programme made jobs a priority. We were promised a jobs budget, but we got a damp squib. We were told in the programme for Government that job creation is central to any recovery strategy. The Exchequer returns yesterday made very disturbing reading on this front. At the end of September, the USC income tax return was €125 million ahead of profile, and by the end of October, it had fallen to €147 million behind profile. That is a turnaround, relative to profile, of €372 million. When comparing forecast to forecast, we have had a massive turnaround in a month. The only logic that one can get from the figure is that there is a sudden downward trend in employment in the economy, despite the so called jobs initiative.

The live register is to be published today. The Tánaiste has the figures and I do not. However, one would expect it to show a decline at this time of the year. If it does show a decline, will that be because people are taking the bád bán and emigrating?

The Government's jobs initiative is in tatters and the pension funds were raided. All we seem to be getting are employment figures in decline. What hope can the Tánaiste give to the people of the country who are currently unemployed that the Government will tackle this issue and come to grips with it? For the Government to blame the situation is wearing thin, as it was elected on the basis that it would rectify all these issues and that it would deliver especially on jobs.

Deputy Joe Costello

The Deputy and his party were 14 years——

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I was 18 years creating jobs——

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputies, please, through the Chair.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

As the Deputy is no doubt aware, I spent 18 years at the coal face creating jobs, and I have huge experience in getting my hands dirty and creating jobs.

Will the forthcoming budget be a propoer jobs budget? Will the Government have something real to offer those who are watching today and whose main concern is the creation of real employment and an alternative to the bád bán?

Deputy Shane McEntee

There were 70 jobs in north County Dublin and only three Irish people applied for them, because of the Deputy's system.

Deputy Dara Calleary

It's the Government's system now.

The Tánaiste

I know that Deputy Ó Cuív is a great student of history, and from my own knowledge of history, the master skipper and entire crew of the bád bán were Fianna Fáil over the decades. The emigration records of this country occurred during periods of Fianna Fáil Government. The commitment to reduce unemployment and create jobs is the Government's primary objective. The revenue from income tax on a year on year basis was up last year, which was the case for the first time in three years. The figures are broadly on target. It is true that from one heading to another, there is some variation, but when the November returns come in, we will have a fuller picture and we expect that to be broadly on target.

The Government has already introduced a jobs initiative which was successful. The Government is continuing its efforts to attract investment to this country. The attraction of investment to this country is dependent on the country's reputation being restored. We have made considerable progress on that. The commentary about Ireland on the day that the Deputy left office was embarrassing to read. It would be difficult to conceive of anybody seriously investing in this country in circumstances where that kind of commentary was being made about us. Following eight months of this Government's stewardship, the commentary being made about Ireland now is entirely different and is more conducive to attracting the kind of investment into this country that will create jobs.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Mar is eol don Tánaiste, an t-am ba mheasa ina raibh an imirice ná sna 50í nuair a bhí Fine Gael agus an Lucht Oibre i rialtas le chéile. The Tánaiste has said that income tax is up year on year, and that is because of the universal service charge that he was going to abolish or reduce. Income tax returns are up, but Exchequer returns spell out month after month that the reason they are up is the USC.

The Tánaiste states that the jobs initiative has been successful, and I am very interested to hear that. As he is privy to information, can he give me the increase in total employment in the economy over the last three months? If the Tánaiste has that information, it would be a good idea to share it with the House. If he does not, I wonder how he can tell me the job initiative is successful when all the figures point to exactly the opposite.

Yes, the commentary about Ireland is good. Why is it good?

Deputy Arthur Spring

Because it was bad.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Effectively, up to now, the Government has been implementing the policies and the programme we laid out. The problem is——

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Do not go there.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

——that the promised jobs initiative is a total failure based on these figures.

The Tánaiste

The jobs initiative has been a success. Both the tourist industry and the hospitality industry, at which we targeted the reductions in VAT, saw significant increases in business during the course of this season.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Can the Tánaiste show us the employment figures?

The Tánaiste

No. I am not going to give top-of-the-head figures.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Is it not about jobs?

The Tánaiste

The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport has placed on the record of the House the improved situation in the tourism industry and the Minister for Social Protection has previously told the House about the improvements resulting from JobBridge and the labour activation measures that were contained within it.

With regard to the wider issue of restoration of reputation, the reason this country's reputation has been restored is that the Government that is now in place enjoys confidence at home and respect abroad. The measures the Government has been pursuing, including the changes it has successfully secured in the bad agreement the previous Government made with the ECB and IMF, are producing results. Those results are seen abroad and are contributing to a better investment climate, which will create jobs and reduce the level of unemployment. Getting people back to work is the Government's main priority and will remain so until the level of unemployment is reduced sufficiently.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald.

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

She is back.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Yesterday, we saw the Tánaiste's Government hand over €700 million to unguaranteed bondholders.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

No, Anglo Irish Bank did.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

We see evidence today of tax revenues falling. Of particular note is the drop in VAT receipts, a further reflection of the decimation of the domestic economy and people's spending power due to austerity measures directed at middle and low income earners. Tomorrow we expect to see the Government's growth projections revised downwards yet again.

We also found out recently that a €3.6 billion accountancy error meant the State's outstanding debt would be reduced by some 2.3% of GDP. A total of €3.6 billion is one hell of an accountancy error. I note this matter was discussed at Cabinet yesterday. The Tánaiste might share with us the Government's view of this accountancy error. I might also ask the Tánaiste, given the massive salaries those in the NTMA are earning — 14 of them are paid more than a quarter of a million euro — if he still retains confidence in the work they do.

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

They found it.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Behind the sofa.

Deputy Finian McGrath

It fell down behind the sofa.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

What about the Department of Finance?

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

Bertie left it there.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order, please.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The NTMA claimed it alerted the Department of Finance about this issue in August 2010.

Deputy Noel Coonan

It is a good job it was not in the bank.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The current Secretary General of that Department presided over this blunder, yet the Government proposes to appoint this man to a plum job at the European Court of Auditors. On what basis can the Tánaiste possibly defend the appointment of this individual to anything, let alone the European Court of Auditors, given this blunder? Does he still have confidence in the appointment of this man to that post?

The Tánaiste

There has been a long-standing practice in this House that attacks are not made on individuals who are not in a position to defend themselves——

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order, please.

Deputy Barry Cowen

Economic treason and all that.

Deputy Dara Calleary

They did five years of it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order.

Deputy Dara Calleary

Do they remember that?

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Is there going to be a sea change?

Deputy Barry Cowen

Economic treason.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

Is the protest over?

The Tánaiste

——and in particular on civil servants who are not permitted to engage in political or public debate. If Members of the House want to change it, that is another debate. I ask Members, including the Deputy, to respect that and to respect the rights of the individuals concerned.

The medium-term fiscal plan will be published on Friday and will contain the latest macro-economic and fiscal forecasts of the Department of Finance. These will inform the Government in its ongoing budgetary deliberations.

As part of the ongoing technical work on debt projections, the NTMA recently drew to the attention of the Department of Finance and the Central Statistics Office the fact that there was a change in its relationship with the Housing Finance Agency that has an impact on the accounts of the two entities. Previously, the NTMA acted as an agent for the HFA, but since late 2010 it has loaned directly to the HFA. These loans appear as assets in the NTMA accounts and liabilities in the HFA accounts. The liabilities of the HFA are included in the general Government debt, but the corresponding assets of the NTMA were included in the liquid assets of the NTMA, which are also part of general Government debt, effectively resulting in a double count. Removing the impact of this double count reduces the estimate of the 2010 general Government debt by €3.6 billion, or 2.3% of GDP.

The Government needs the most up-to-date fiscal information to best plan the path to Ireland's recovery. This kind of accounting mistake is unacceptable and all safeguards will be investigated to ensure it is never repeated. The Minister for Finance made it clear yesterday that he is pursuing his own inquiries into the matter and intends to put in place the most robust system to ensure there is not a repeat of this kind of accounting error, which is unacceptable, in the future.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Before I call on the Deputy, I must say that I will not permit reference to persons outside the House.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I have the utmost respect for the Civil Service and public servants generally. However, there must be accountability when mistakes are made — when an accountancy error to the tune of 2.3% of GDP is made. I make no apology for calling to account very senior civil servants on very big pay packages with very generous pension entitlements to give an account through the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach as the Heads of Government. I find it rather puzzling that the Tánaiste would make a statement such as he did. I understood his Government was to herald a new dawn of accountability at the most senior levels. I will not apologise for naming the NTMA big rollers, and if I have the opportunity and their names I will read them into the record of the Dáil, because these people are paid through the public purse and need to be accountable to the House.

The accountancy error of €3.6 billion, which the Tánaiste finds so unacceptable, does, as the Tánaiste correctly said, adjust the debt burden down by 2.3% of GDP. What implication will this have for the upcoming budget? This represents an improved scenario in terms of our debt burden and I am sure it has an implication in terms of interest repayments and debt servicing. Can the people of this country expect, after the uncovering of this unacceptable accountancy blunder, that the Government might relieve them of some of the harshest cuts it is clearly planning to introduce in a short few weeks?

The Tánaiste

This Government insists and will continue to insist on accountability from everyone who works in our system, whether in the Civil Service, State agencies or anywhere else. If Deputy McDonald or any Member wishes to bring any of the relevant officials before the relevant committees and put questions to them, they are entitled to do so. That is parliamentary accountability and that is the fair and proper way to do it. Officials are brought before the relevant committee, one asks them questions and one allows them an opportunity to answer. It is not right to come in to the House and make allegations under the privilege of the Chamber when the officials concerned do not have the opportunity to come in.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

They are not allegations.

The Tánaiste

If the Deputy wishes to bring them before a committee or use the committee system——

(Interruptions).

The Tánaiste

Let us talk about fairness. We are not talking about secret court martials. We are talking about people being given the opportunity or a right to respond. If Deputy McDonald wishes to use the Oireachtas committee system to do so, that is fine. That is the fair way to do it but she should not come to the House——

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

And expect the truth.

The Tánaiste

——and make allegations about individual public servants who do not have the opportunity to reply to what she has had to say.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

No allegations were made.

The Tánaiste

Deputy McDonald asked whether the discovery of the €3.6 billion or the accounting error would have an implication for the budget. It does not because the interest rates calculated on the level of debt were calculated on the lower level, in other words, on the corrected level.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Will it ever dawn on the Tánaiste that the Government's programme of savage austerity, far from creating jobs and recovery, will plunge our society into ever deeper economic crisis? Is this not clear to the Tánaiste given the shortfall of €383 million in VAT to date reflecting a stagnation in retail sales and services and as a result of the savage austerity that the Government continues to impose on ordinary people while, at the same time continuing to transfer billions of euro in resources to banks, bondholders and assorted speculators? Is it not clear to the Tánaiste that the baleful social effects of austerity, with almost half a million people on the live register, are evident?

The Society of St. Vincent de Paul is expecting an unprecedented level of demand for its services from desperate individuals and families this Christmas. Should the disaster that is the Greek economy not make the Tánaiste re-think his blind adherence to this policy? Three years ago, the Greek people were promised that if they accepted the savage programme of cuts they would be on the way to recovery by now. Instead, they have been plunged into greater misery and more crises. Will the Tánaiste explain the point of the Irish Labour Party given that it brings to the debate on the current crisis absolutely nothing different in the slightest from Merkel, Sarkozy and all the high priests and hawks of right wing, neoliberal capitalism?

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Does Deputy Higgins want to join the Greeks?

Deputy Joe Higgins

The Tánaiste slavishly submits to the diktats of the financial markets and those faceless institutions that hold the lives of tens and hundreds of millions of Europeans in their grip. The Tánaiste has no word of opposition to say or an alternative to put.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Joe Higgins

Will it ever dawn on the Tánaiste that capitalism is in a systemic crisis at this time and it will not find a way out? Major private conglomerates are on a strike of capital. Only by a complete change of policy and particularly by major public investment in infrastructure and services can we recreate and rebuild our economy, recreate the tens of thousands of jobs needed and put people back to work.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

There is no money.

Deputy Joe Higgins

If the Labour Party does not bring such an alternative, should it not merge into the grey mass that surrounds it on the Government benches rather than pretend there is something distinct anymore called the Irish Labour Party?

(Interruptions).

The Tánaiste

The Deputy asked me when a number of things will dawn on me. It appears that one thing has dawned on the Deputy and, presumably, other Members opposite during the course of the past two weeks, that is, we should not go the way Greece has gone.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Tánaiste

The last time I was here answering questions I was asked why we had not done what Greece has done. I notice no one is asking me that today.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Why does the Government not do what it said it would do?

The Tánaiste

As far as Deputy Higgins is concerned, when will it dawn on him that one cannot spend what one does not have?

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The Government is spending it on bailing out the banks.

Deputy Joan Collins

There are choices to be made.

The Tánaiste

This country is in a serious deficit. Let us suppose one wishes to borrow to bridge the gap between what one is spending and getting in. One cannot borrow from people if one tells them one will not pay their money back, which seems to be what Deputy Higgins is advancing. He asked me the purpose of the Labour Party so let me tell him the purpose. The purpose is to solve the economic mess we have inherited, to get the country out of the economic hole in which we found it last March, to get people back to work and to build a better and fairer society.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Dara Calleary

That is what the Tánaiste said last February.

Deputy Seamus Healy

What about cuts to gas and electricity and everything for older people?

The Tánaiste

This will require difficult decisions and difficult times but we will do this in order to bring about the recovery that people in the country seek rather than have people continue in unemployment and continue in the difficult situation they are in. It would be welcome if, occasionally, Deputy Higgins and other Deputies who criticise so frequently would come in here with the odd constructive proposal about how we might do this.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call Deputy Higgins. Order, please.

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Stagg, please. Order, please. The Chair is on his feet. I have called Deputy Higgins, who has one minute.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Obviously since they are being denied any impact whatsoever on Government policy, the only way the Labour Party backbenchers can find their voice is by clamour in the Parliament.

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are on Leaders' Questions, please.

Deputy Joe Higgins

In case the Tánaiste did not hear me, I stated precisely that the country should not take the road Greece has taken. That is the point I made.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Joe Higgins

This is because the road the Tánaiste's colleague, Mr. Papandreou, has taken, and New Democracy before him, during the past two years has been a disaster. That is clear and the suffering of the Greek people is testament to it. The policy of austerity is ruining Greece and its people. The Tánaiste says one cannot spend what one does not have. But apparently the Labour Party and Fine Gael can give billions of euro that we do not have to bankers, bondholders and speculators.

Almost 100 years ago the great socialist James Connolly, who co-founded the Labour Party, and would reject with contempt its current role——

Deputy Emmet Stagg

What about Trotsky? The Deputy should give some credit to him.

Deputy Joe Higgins

What did Connolly do, having found the European people confronted with the looming catastrophe of the First World War and abandoned by virtually all, even the social democratic parties which slavishly followed their imperialist masters supporting the war? He stood boldly out and called for mass resistance and an alternative. He said we should resist until the last capitalist bond and debenture will be shrivelled on the funeral pyre of the last warlord.

Today the Irish Labour Party believes that the last bond and debenture should be repaid to the European speculators and bondholders at enormous cost to the Irish people and to the further deterioration of our economy. Even if Deputies do not listen to the man who founded the party and would revile what it is doing today——

Deputy Michael McCarthy

The Deputy is obsessed with the Labour Party.

Deputy Joe Higgins

——there are non-socialist economists who carry great authority in economic circles such as Nourieal Roubini, Paul Krugman, Joseph Stiglitz and others. They all now say categorically that continuing the programme of austerity is a disaster.

Will the Government learn the lessons from Greece and fundamentally abandon the disastrous policy——

A Deputy

Join the dots.

Deputy Joe Higgins

——of salvaging the living standards of working class people, pensioners and the poor and embark on an alternative policy of public investment, massive job creation and the re-creation of our economy?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order, please.

The Tánaiste

I thank Deputy Higgins for his kind remark about the Labour Party backbenchers. I am sure he will have noticed their number has been added to by one with the election of Deputy Nulty last week in the same constituency as Deputy Higgins.

Deputy Dara Calleary

The first U-turn will be later today.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

There will be competition there the next time.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Tánaiste, please.

The Tánaiste

I could not help but notice yesterday that Deputy Higgins had difficulty congratulating Deputy Nulty because, unusually for some reason, he found himself in the corner when Deputy Nulty was introduced to the House.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Tánaiste

Perhaps he will take the opportunity to congratulate him today.

Deputy Joe Higgins

I shook hands with him in the depths of the night in Citywest.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy, resume your seat.

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

He did not do it yesterday when he had the chance.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Tánaiste, without interruption please.

The Tánaiste

I share the interest of Deputy Higgins in the history of the early part of the 20th century, such as 1911 and 1912. Unfortunately, I do not get as much time these days to read about that as Deputy Higgins clearly does because my focus and that of my party is what happens in 2012, 2013 and 2014——

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Tánaiste

——and getting people back to work. We have to deal effectively with the economic crisis, reduce the budget deficit and deal effectively, as we are doing, with the banking situation.

Deputy Higgins will have noticed the approach the Government took earlier this year on the banking situation is working. Private investment is now going into Irish banks, including the recent private investment in Irish Life & Permanent. We are pursuing a strategy which is about investment and getting people back to work. That is the focus of the Government.

It would be helpful if, instead of using 100 year old rhetoric, Deputy Higgins would make some modern proposals for today's world to deal with the problems of those experiencing unemployment, mortgage and other difficulties. We want to deal with those issues. That is what the Government is focused on and what we will deal with successfully.