Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 31 Jan 2012

Vol. 753 No. 2

Leaders’ Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

Now that the intergovernmental treaty has been finalised, will the Taoiseach ensure, as an urgent decision, that the public can be properly informed about the treaty by publishing an explanatory guide to it? The people have not been kept informed adequately of the content of the treaty, what it is about or its objectives. Essentially, the people have been kept in the dark for far too long about this process during the past six months.

We are in the midst of the worst economic crisis the world - especially the eurozone - has seen since 1929. We have seen how European Union leaders are grappling with this crisis which has threatened and is threatening the survival of the euro and the eurozone. The people have responded in a constructive, responsible and resilient manner and we should trust the people's judgment. We should accept that during a series of difficult years they have responded in a resilient manner to the issues. Given the scale of what has taken place and what continues to take place - we are concerned about Greece and there are fresh concerns about Portugal - does the Taoiseach not believe it is morally right to consult the people on this treaty, especially given the centrality of our relationship with Europe with regard to our economic future and the future of jobs and so forth? We should not be afraid of consulting the people on this issue. Yesterday, the Taoiseach stated that the Government has nothing to fear from a referendum. The sense of bringing the citizens with us in terms of the European Union is an important concept and ideal. Not only is this relevant to Ireland, it is relevant and applicable to all EU member states in terms of the degree to which citizens have been left behind in the context of the decisions taken by political elites at European Union level. There are significant elements in this treaty, in terms of the ECJ and so on, that we would like to discuss at a future date, but the fundamental point is the need to consult with the people on this specific treaty. Does the Taoiseach agree there is a need to do that?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin is using peculiar phraseology today. I assume that by saying "consult with the people" he is talking about holding a referendum, but he did not say that. Deputy Martin's view yesterday and that of his party, which was espoused by Deputy Michael McGrath in a very constructive fashion, was that if a referendum was required in the context of changing the Constitution, it should be held. That is the position. I have been very clear about this.

When Deputy Martin says that it is right and important that the people are properly informed, he can take it I agree with that. The people will be properly informed. The Deputy said they were not adequately informed over the past six months. They have had a flavour of the discussions that have taken place, but Deputy Martin will understand that the final text was only agreed yesterday evening. Therefore, the final text upon which discussions on the content will take place was only finalised by the Heads of Government at last night's meeting in Brussels. As the Deputy is aware, this morning at the Cabinet meeting I asked for formal approval to have the Minister for Foreign Affairs write formally to the Attorney General, as is required, to seek formal legal advice on the question as to whether the text and wording agreed at yesterday evening's meeting is in compliance with Bunreacht na hÉireann. As the Deputy is aware, then we change the Constitution or seek the right to change the Constitution if that is necessary. The Government has asked the Attorney General for formal legal advice and that will be given in due course and the Government will act on the legal advice given by her.

I am quite sure Deputy Martin supports fiscal discipline, proper budgetary oversight and the opportunities for growth and job creation, not only in this country but right across the eurozone and Union and that is what the discussions that took place at an intensive level since just after Christmas Day were concerned with. We will have a discussion here tomorrow on the outcome of the meeting and will have ample opportunity to discuss the articles and preambles to the intergovernmental agreement agreed yesterday. The Deputy may take it that the public will be properly informed as to what is at stake and in due course, when the Attorney General's formal legal advice comes to the Government, we will act in accordance with the precedent here. I will wait to see what is the advice of the Attorney General.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I put it to the Taoiseach that he has neglected the public dimension to this debate and to the preparations leading up to the treaty to an alarming degree. In December, we asked in the House for a special Oireachtas committee to be established to enable the issues around the treaty to be teased out by parliamentarians here, but the Taoiseach rejected that constructive suggestion of mine at the time. The people do not want to be dismissed. However, with the way Ministers are approaching this, there is a sense that the people are being dismissed. When a Minister says that referendums are anti-democratic, that leads people to think in the direction that they are being dismissed. The comments made by Deputy Varadkar on the validity of a referendum raise that issue.

I did not expect to get a clear answer from the Taoiseach on a referendum or legal advice and so on, although I believe the Attorney General has been all over this for the past number of months, as would be normal and natural. What work was undertaken by the Government in preparation for this treaty in terms of its impact on the fiscal situation and future budgets? Has work been undertaken and has an analysis been undertaken with regard to the impact of the treaty on future budgets and the parameters around those budgets? Has there been an assessment of the impact of this treaty on jobs and job creation? We read today that there is a 10.5% average unemployment rate across the 17 eurozone states. Will the Taoiseach confirm that work has been undertaken by the Government with regard to the impact of the treaty? Will he publish that work straight away?

The Taoiseach

The issues will begin to be discussed tomorrow in the House here, following the normal report that I will give to the House following yesterday's meeting. I expect that Deputy Hannigan, the Chairman of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on European Union Affairs, will see that plenty of opportunity is given to Deputies from all sides of the House to have their say on the text as it is agreed in this intergovernmental treaty. I want the Deputy to understand that I have required every Minister and Minister of State to attend their meetings in Europe where appropriate as part of the ongoing work that is involved in this.

The Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Creighton, who has responsibility for European Union affairs, has undertaken an enormous range of meetings informing our colleagues and peers of the work of Government. At ministerial level, part of the work that occurs on a daily basis, concerns not just our programme for Government, but how this feeds into the European agenda. I am glad, as I am sure Deputy Martin is, that at long last, jobs, employment and incentives in the Single Market will become a central feature of all of the agendas for European Council meetings.

Deputy Martin spoke about consulting with the people. He can take it that very adequate information will be provided to everybody on what is contained in this. On the first Lisbon referendum, people felt they were not properly informed. Of course the issues then covered a broad spectrum, ranging from questions about abortion to battlegroups and to transfers of competency. I participated in a number of meetings with Deputy Martin then where we favoured a "Yes" on that referendum strongly. However, remember that in November 2010, when the Government of which Deputy Martin was a member made a decision at Cabinet in respect of handing over the economic sovereignty of our State, that was followed by a period of denial where Minister after Minister said that everything was rosy in the garden, there were green shoots, we had turned the corner and the IMF-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

I asked about the impact assessment.

The Taoiseach

-----did not get their passports or visas to get in here at all. I want Deputy Martin to understand that as far as I am concerned, we will be very straight with process here.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Has the Government done an impact assessment on the treaty? That is the question I asked.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach, without interruption please.

The Taoiseach

This morning, I asked that the Cabinet refer this final text to the Attorney General for her formal, legal advice. The Government will follow through on that advice.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Has the Government examined the impact on the budget and on jobs?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy may take it that the work of Government and the fiscal responsibility Bill, which the Minister for Finance is preparing, look at the impact of what is involved here, as will every Minister, not just for this year, but for the time ahead. It is a science on which we cannot give a definitive answer. We cannot say what the economic situation will be in five or ten years time.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Surely work has been undertaken, but will it be published?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Adams is waiting to contribute. We are over time.

The Taoiseach

There is a great deal of work going on. However, most of it is reports about the consequence of the programme for Government and where we are headed in the future, how to restructure our public finances so that we can have an economy that can grow and how we can close the deficit of €16 billion.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Will the Taoiseach publish the report on the impact of the treaty?

The Taoiseach

Yes.

Deputy Alan Shatter

Did Deputy Martin ever understand the-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, please speak through the Chair. I have called Deputy Adams and he is on his feet. Please show respect.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Chonaic mé ar an teilifís aréir go raibh an Taoiseach agus an t-Uachtarán Sarkozy mar buddy-buddy agus chuir sé déistean orm nuair a chonaic mé cé chomh amaideach a bhí an Taoiseach.

Deputy Micheál Martin

An cairdiúlacht is precious i mo thuairim.

Deputy Gerry Adams

This was at a summit which noted that 23 million people are out of work across the European Union. Bhí an Taoiseach ag imirt an amadáin le Sarkozy - agus dúirt seisean go raibh an pobal as a gcloigeann. How much extra austerity did the Taoiseach sign up to last night? What extra cuts and tax increases on low and middle income families will be required to meet the new 0.5% deficit ceiling?

In his state of the nation - or state of the State - address before the budget, the Taoiseach said, "I want to be the Taoiseach who retrieves Ireland's economic sovereignty and who leads a Government that will help our country to succeed". Yet last night he signed an austerity treaty that hands significant new powers over to the European Court of Justice and the European Commission, which are unelected bodies that impose economic policies on democratically elected Governments and which impose heavy fines when they believe these policies have not been adhered to. The Taoiseach also doggedly refuses to give the people their democratic right to have a referendum. How can he talk of restoring sovereignty on the one hand, and at the same deny citizens their democratic right to have a say on this treaty where he gives away more powers to unelected officials in Brussels?

The Taoiseach

For Deputy Adams to get up here above everybody else and talk about meeting people, when he himself was buddy to some very shadowy creatures over the last 30 years------

A Deputy

Colonel Gaddafi.

The Taoiseach

At least the French President is elected democratically by his people. Everybody who attends that meeting is entitled to give good wishes to everyone they meet, because we have to work together in the interests of Europe. The French President yesterday was central to an issue that was causing concern at the meeting and which was resolved with a satisfactory compromise.

The Deputy comes in to this House, to which he has been elected democratically, and accuses others of being "buddy buddy". At least the world knows that not only did I have an altercation before with President Sarkozy, but that yesterday I had a very convivial conservation with him. Deputy Adams has never owned up to some of the "buddy buddy" creatures with whom he associated over the last 30 years.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

Does he want us to kneecap him?

The Taoiseach

When I am asked in Armagh to apologise on behalf of this State for people who were murdered in Northern Ireland by people who crossed the Border and were deemed to be in safe houses, I have to say that the organisation involved was the enemy of this State because they murdered gardaí, Army personnel and innocent civilians.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Eddie Fullerton.

The Taoiseach

For the "buddy buddies" of that group who Deputy Adams knows and with whom he associated, the truth will come out some time.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

Not if they can help it.

The Taoiseach

I am glad that the Deputy's party has moved a long distance from those dark days, but when he comes in here to this House of Parliament and makes a big issue of the French President passing by and saying "hello" in his own way, I would like to remind him of his own "buddy buddies".

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

What about the Taoiseach's old friend, Eoin O'Duffy?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Adams will have his opportunity to comment on the treaty tomorrow and on many other occasions.

The amendment which was agreed to article 4 last night states that "The existence of an excessive deficit due to the breach of the debt criterion will be decided according to the procedure set forth in Article 126 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union". This agreement is rooted in the legal basis of the European Union and for the Deputy to say otherwise is not correct.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I will ignore most of the Taoiseach's remarks. He did not answer the question.

Deputy Alan Shatter

Game, set and match.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I will not be here tomorrow. I will be burying a very old friend of mine, a person who actively assisted in the creation of the peace process which the Taoiseach's party stood against at the time. I do not want to go there. I want to deal with the question I put to the Taoiseach.

How much in austerity cuts-----

Deputy Alan Shatter

You started the war process.

Deputy Gerry Adams

It is inappropriate for a Taoiseach to act like an eejit when he meets the French President.

An Ceann Comhairle

Can you get on with the question please? This is Question Time.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I want to appeal to all Deputies from all parties and none to call for a referendum. We should not hide behind the pronouncement of the Attorney General. All Deputies in the Oireachtas should call for a referendum so that citizens will have their say. The Taoiseach had fine words to say about jobs and growth, but there are no new plans, no new money and no new jobs. There was not a single red cent - to coin a phrase - for job creation yesterday, but on 31 March the Government will pay another €3.1 billion to failed banks.

An Ceann Comhairle

You are overtime.

Deputy Gerry Adams

This 0.5% target will mean a further €6 billion in cuts and new taxes. It will mean that on top of the €8.6 billion the Government has already agreed to cut from the economy, people will have to pay for this. Yet the Taoiseach has the audacity to say that the people are mad.

I will ask the question again. What will this treaty cost to lower and middle income families, in terms of cuts in their services and in terms of their taxes?

The Taoiseach

There is a process to our democracy and part of it is to adhere to something that has been well tried and tested. If we are to attempt to change our Constitution and if it is deemed necessary then the advice of the Attorney General is the process by which all Governments have followed over the years. The referendum on the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 also involved a constitutional amendment.

I am sorry for the Deputy's friend and his family. If he wants to continue to challenge the process by which we do our business here, then he has a duty himself. Deputy Mac Lochlainn might think it is funny that 3,000 people lost their lives during that 30 year period, and he might want to forget it, but some of us do not.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Why can the Taoiseach not answer the question here and now?

The Taoiseach

In respect of the cost, this intergovernmental agreement is not the answer to all of Europe's problems but it allows 25 of the 27 EU countries to sign up to a political process where fiscal discipline and proper governance of the economic affairs of each nation will be put into place. This means that the funding for this country, which is in a programme for the next two years, as authorised yesterday by the full meeting, will continue as it will for any other country in a programme.

It is for us here - not for Europe - to decide how we should close the gap in our spending over taxation. That is a very serious problem, as the Deputy can understand. We are taking out €3.4 billion this year. The Deputy wanted to close a gap of €15 billion to €16 billion in one year but the impact of that would be catastrophic. The economic policies his party has been pursuing have been wild in the extreme.

What is involved here is a process of ratification of this agreement, whereby the 25 countries that have signed up for this and the 27 countries of the EU will apply proper governmental standards to the running of their countries so that economies can grow, jobs can be created and the promotion of job opportunities is central to the agenda for the future. We cannot do that unless we sort out our problems. They will not be sorted unless we work with our colleagues and decide ourselves what we have to do.

As Deputy Martin is well aware, the next ten years will see an annual payment of €3 billion payment in respect of the promissory notes to Anglo Irish Bank.

Deputy Gerry Adams

By the Taoiseach and not by Deputy Martin.

The Taoiseach

The technical work that is underway will deal with the scale of that burden on the Irish taxpayer. That work is now being initiated by the troika and when its paper is produced, it will have that status. We will continue to work with our colleagues because if we are to benefit from that, we will need support from all of them.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Taoiseach did not answer the question.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Is the truth not that the fiscal compact is a treaty for permanent austerity and therefore provides for permanent attacks on the living standards and public services of ordinary Europeans? Is the reality not that the obsession of the Government at the summit was to secure a wording for the austerity treaty that it hoped would avoid a referendum by having the initial German Government demand that austerity be enshrined in every constitution removed?

Why did the Government not use the lead-up to the summit to lay down demands about the disastrous consequences of the bailout of the European financial system on the backs of the Irish people? Why did the Taoiseach grossly undermine demands for getting rid of the Anglo promissory notes madness which will break the State when, in Davos and in front of the world's capitalist and media establishment, he carelessly blamed the Irish people's alleged greed for the financial crash instead of placing the responsibility with the crazed operations of the casino financial markets and their profiteering and speculation? Is it any wonder photographs have appeared in the media around the world today showing President Sarkozy patting the Taoiseach on the head? I noticed in some of the television shots that a number of other prime ministers also patted him on the head as they passed him.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should ask a question.

Deputy Joe Higgins

They must be delighted with the Taoiseach for blaming the Irish people for the disaster of their system, paying billions to salvage Irish, French, German and other banks on the backs of the Irish people and then agreeing to austerity in perpetuity to pay for all of this.

Does the Taoiseach agree with his Minister for Transport, Deputy Varadkar, that Irish people are essentially so stupid they would not be able to see what a referendum on the austerity treaty is about? Does he agree with the Minister's statement that holding a referendum would not be democratic because people may have on their minds extraneous issues such as septic tanks or household taxes and would dare to think about bondholders and - wait for it - cutbacks as they voted? According to the Minister, these issues do not have any connection with a referendum on austerity. Does the Taoiseach agree that his Minister for Transport is severely spatially challenged if he cannot join a few short dots to see precisely the connection between an austerity treaty, cutbacks, stealth taxes and a tax on living standards?

I challenge the Taoiseach to hold a referendum, regardless of whether the Attorney General decides it is a constitutional imperative. Does he agree that it is democratic to bring the matter to the people? Has he noticed that according to one poll taken at the weekend, three quarters of people are demanding a say on the austerity treaty?

The Taoiseach

That was a long, rambling discourse which I thought was more of an attempt at a left hook than a pat on the head.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It was a series of questions and the Taoiseach should try answering them.

The Taoiseach

In any event, the position about the process of government is very clear and it is one I have outlined for the Deputy before. The text was agreed last night by the Heads of Government and has been formally sent from the Cabinet to the Attorney General. The Cabinet will await the advice of the Attorney General and, once received, I will so inform the Dáil. The Government will then act on the basis of the advice of the Attorney General.

Deputy Higgins's comments about the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, and the Irish people are beneath him.

Deputy Joe Higgins

I would have thought they were beneath the Minister.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy said the Irish people are so stupid or used some other convoluted phrase.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Maybe they are mad.

The Taoiseach

As Deputy Higgins is well aware from his long experience, when people go to vote they decide from their own perspective what it is they are voting about, be it for candidates or particular questions they may be asked.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It is called democracy.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach should keep digging.

An Ceann Comhairle

We could do without the chorus.

The Taoiseach

In any event, as I have already indicated, if it is necessary to change the Constitution to ratify the treaty, the Government will accept the formal legal advice of the Attorney General.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Taoiseach is hiding behind the Attorney General.

The Taoiseach

I have taken this process very clearly and step by step. I am sure Deputy Higgins, from his socialist perspective, wants to see circumstances in which people in his constituency can contribute to the good of their locality, economy and country. Deputy McGrath may think it is very funny but people want to make a contribution. No Government will be in a position to do its job unless we have a country where the economy is growing and thriving and in which jobs and opportunities can be created for our children, the next generation. If the Deputy believes this will sort itself out by doing nothing, he is very much mistaken.

What was concluded last night is a political agreement on a text for an intergovernmental treaty. We have asked the Attorney General for formal advice on it and the Cabinet will act accordingly when that advice is received.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Does the Taoiseach have any inkling that what he agreed last night, namely, permanent austerity and cutbacks, will have a drastic effect on employment and bring about the opposite of job creation? For the first time in a long while, I noticed cynical propaganda emerging from the European Union to the effect that the economic crisis is about to be turned around and there has been some talk of stimulus and so forth. Will what was agreed not further depress the economies of Europe, causing further suffering for ordinary people across the Continent? Is the Taoiseach aware that it has been notified today that unemployment in the European Union is at its highest for 14 years, with 16.5 million people unemployed? Young people all over Europe are being cruelly denied a job and in countries such as Spain, Portugal, Greece and Ireland the effects of austerity are disastrous. How can the Taoiseach discuss job creation in the same breath as he defends an austerity treaty? Will he explain his comments in Davos, which he has failed to do, when he carefully blamed the Irish people in total for the greed of a tiny minority?

It was not me who underestimated the intelligence of Irish people but the Minister for Transport, Deputy Varadkar, who stated they could not distinguish between a treaty and other, albeit important issues which are on their minds. Who is calling Irish people stupid? Does the Taoiseach agree with the Minister that a referendum is not an exercise in democracy?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Higgins talks about cynical propaganda. One of the central features of this informal Council meeting was that jobs and growth, the Single Market and small and medium-sized enterprises were the first issues discussed by the Council and will continue to be on the agenda of every Council meeting from now on.

Deputy Joe Higgins

That was window dressing to get the treaty through.

The Taoiseach

As the Deputy is aware, unemployment among young people is above average in eight or nine European Union member states, including in this country. The Commission's response, taken with the agreement of the meeting, is that a specific action plan will put in place for each such country before the end of April.

Deputy Joe Higgins

No new funds are available.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Higgins is aware that 23 million people are unemployed in the European Union and there are 23 million small and medium-sized enterprises in the same geographical area. The Union will not develop-----

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The unemployed need more than platitudes.

The Taoiseach

-----to the point where we would like it to be unless decisiveness and some element of fiscal control is shown. There are countries where between €10 billion and €12 billion which has been allocated by the taxpayers of Europe have not yet been drawn down because they have not produced projects on which this money could be spent. Yesterday's Council meeting considered how elements of this structural funding could be used for training and development, in particular for young people. Clearly, unemployment is a problem not only in Ireland, but in every country in the European Union.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

What does the Government intend to do about it?

The Taoiseach

As I indicated, the issue will be a central feature of every Council agenda from now on. It is not the case that we have a treaty on austerity. This is a political agreement that countries and their governments will run their affairs properly and will have a programme to see that they achieve proper financial control of their affairs and get their houses in order. Every economy in the Union can grow as a consequence. Ireland is in that position. We are in a programme until the end of 2013. Last week, we had a strong signal from the National Treasury Management Agency that confidence is growing, although we have a very long way to go. Perhaps if Deputy Higgins turned his thoughts sometime to constructive suggestions instead of the kind of nonsense he goes on with, we might be far better off.

Deputy Joe Higgins

I will give the Taoiseach plenty of constructive suggestions.