Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Mar 2012

Vol. 758 No. 2

Topical Issue Matters

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I wish to advise the House of the following matters in respect of which notice has been given under Standing Order 27A and the name of the Member in each case: (1) Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor - the need to investigate and mandate a comprehensive regulation system of Irish cosmetic surgery clinics; (2) Deputy Shane Ross - the staffing cuts inflicted on Holy Cross national school, Dundrum, Dublin; (3) Deputy Patrick O'Donovan - the future participation of Irish citizens who are overseas in referendums and elections; (4) Deputies Joanna Tuffy, Robert Troy, Maureen O'Sullivan and Pádraig Mac Lochlainn - human rights abuses in Pakistan; (5) Deputy Kevin Humphreys - the proposed incinerator at Poolbeg, Dublin; (6) Deputy Michael McCarthy - the steps being taken to ensure the outbreak of a new animal disease in England will not spread here; (7) Deputy Michael Healy-Rae - the establishment of Irish Water; (8) Deputy Eoghan Murphy - the proposed incinerator at Poolbeg, Dublin; (9) Deputy Mary Lou McDonald - the loss of 41 long-term care beds in St. Mary's Hospital in the Phoenix Park, Dublin; (10) Deputy Seamus Healy - the loss of eight teaching posts at Presentation primary school, Carrick-on Suir, County Tipperary; (11) Deputy Robert Dowds - the industrial dispute at Eddie Stobart hauliers, Ballymun, Dublin; (12) Deputy Seán Crowe - the impact on the ending of the bin waiver on the 31 March for 18,000 Greyhound customers in the South Dublin County Council area; (13) Deputy Derek Keating - the recent HIQA report on Ballydowd special care unit, County Dublin; (14) Deputy Timmy Dooley - the recent publication of the Booz report and its implication for the three State airports; (15) Deputy Pearse Doherty - the positive implications for the Irish economy from securing a deal on the Anglo Irish promissory note; (16) Deputy Barry Cowen - Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's uncompromising message on Iran's nuclear programme; (17) Deputy Mick Wallace - the need to voice concerns about Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's message yesterday on Iran's nuclear programme; (18) Deputy Mattie McGrath - the loss of eight teachers from Presentation primary school in Carrick-on-Suir, County Tipperary; (19) Deputy Joan Collins - the need for provision of cardiac and cancer services at Our Lady's Hospital for Sick Children, Crumlin, Dublin; (20) Deputy Peter Mathews - the need for Governor Honohan to raise at tomorrow's meeting of the governing council of the ECB the need for a write-off of the emergency liquidity assistance provided by the Central Bank of Ireland to IBRC; (21) Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett - the proposal to transfer 2,000 residential units from NAMA to local authorities for leasing; (22) Deputy Dessie Ellis - funding for the completion of the Ballymun regeneration project, Dublin; (23) Deputy Anthony Lawlor - the need to address the current level of Garda resources in County Kildare; (24) Deputy Olivia Mitchell - the need to include graduate but unregistered architects in the JobBridge scheme.

The matters raised by Deputies Olivia Mitchell, Joanna Tuffy, Robert Troy, Maureen O'Sullivan, Pádraig Mac Lochlainn, Mary Lou McDonald and Timmy Dooley have been selected for discussion and will be taken now.

Topical Issue Debate ^

JobBridge Scheme

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

I am raising this matter to ask the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, to allow graduate architects to participate in the JobBridge scheme to fulfil the employment condition in their registration as an architect. The Minister will be aware that to become an architect graduates study for five years and that having successfully completed their study, they must register to use the title "architect". To register, they must first pass a professional examination and then - this is where the difficulty lies - be in paid employment in a professional architectural practice for two years. I need hardly remind the House or the Minister that the construction industry has been decimated since 2008. Of all those hit by the downturn in the industry, the architect profession has been hardest hit. There is almost no design work available and there are few opportunities for young unregistered graduates.

Were graduates to be granted access to the JobBridge scheme they could take up an internship which would, in turn, open the door to their professional examinations which they cannot take unless they have obtained work. Graduate architects are excluded from participation in the JobBridge scheme on the basis that as they have a further examination to take, they are unavailable for employment. However, that is not the case. The Department has, since commencement of the recession, recognised the people concerned as been eligible for unemployment benefit.

I am asking the Minister to allow these graduates the opportunity to complete their qualifications through participation in the JobBridge scheme. There are only about 150 such graduates each year. While the OPW takes some of them on and a limited number find work in the private sector, the only option for the majority is emigration. However, they are not recognised abroad as architects because they have not attained their final qualification. The Minister is aware, having been in the House during the passage of legislation in this regard, that this registration is recognised across Europe. Graduates are required to sit an examination to obtain their qualification, but to do so they must first obtain work. However, under the current JobBridge scheme rules, they cannot get work because they must take an examination. I ask the Minister to review the scheme with a view to facilitating these graduates.

Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Joan Burton)

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. The objective of JobBridge, the national internship scheme, is to assist individuals bridge the gap between unemployment and the world of work. It provides those seeking employment with an opportunity to undertake a six or nine month internship in a host organisation. Participation in the scheme will assist in breaking the cycle, whereby unemployed persons are unable to obtain a job without experience. On completion of an internship, participants will have improved their prospects of securing employment

The JobBridge scheme was launched on 29 June 2011. In excess of 5,200 jobseekers have commenced internships. There are 2,130 opportunities available across a wide number of sectors. All of these opportunities are advertised on the JobBridge website www.jobbridge.ie.

In the current labour market environment the JobBridge scheme provides individuals with a unique opportunity to secure work experience in a new field. The scheme enables people to break the cycle, whereby unemployed persons are unable to secure a job without experience, either as new entrants to the labour market after education or training or as unemployed workers whose existing skills are not appropriate to the jobs that will emerge in post-recession Ireland. Eligibility to access the scheme is based on the overall objective of labour market policy in ensuring a pathway to appropriate employment, training and education opportunities for those on the live register. It is important that as employment opportunities become available they are taken up by those on the register.

Given the scale of the unemployment crisis, the key objective of labour market policy will be to keep those on the live register close to the labour market and prevent their drift into long-term unemployment. This will ensure live register members availing of activation measures, including the national internship scheme, will, while retaining social welfare unemployment payments and a top-up allowance of €50, receive an opportunity to engage in the workplace to gain work experience and thus be in a position to avail of employment opportunities as the economy improves. For these reasons, eligibility for the scheme is targeted at those on the live register and in receipt of jobseeker payments or signing for credits for at least 78 days of the last six months. In so designing the scheme the policy objective is to prioritise scarce resources for those on the live register to increase their chances of leaving it and ensure a reduction in Exchequer costs overtime.

The scheme is open to host organisations to provide internship opportunities for qualified architects. To date, there are in excess of 20 architect internship posts advertised on the JobBridge website. The Department is reviewing the operation of the JobBridge scheme and its possible extension, including broadening its eligibility criteria. The issue raised by the Deputy will be considered in the context of the review.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

I welcome the Minister's response. As stated by her, the purpose of the JobBridge scheme is to bring people closer to employment. However, in this case - it is a bizarre anomaly - it is keeping people from employment. The Government has gone to a lot of trouble to assist young apprentices to finish their apprenticeships and these young graduate architects are in a similar position. As the Minister will be aware, they are limited in number and the OPW provides a number of them with well paid work experience which, in turn, allows them to take their professional examinations. It is welcome that the scheme is being reviewed. In that context, I ask the Minister not to close the door to these graduates. This anomaly makes no sense, as it affects people who have done a great deal of study and have no prospect of gaining employment in this country in the immediate future.

Deputy Joan Burton

The Department has received requests to participate in the scheme from lone parents and people with disabilities. A general review of the scheme which has proved very popular is being undertaken. Many are anxious to avail of the opportunities advertised on the JobBridge website. I will undertake to have graduate architects who have not formally completed their professional examinations included in the scheme and come back to the Deputy on the matter. It is hoped the review will be completed in a couple of months time.

Human Rights Issues

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

I raise the matter of the need for reform of the blasphemy laws in Pakistan on the first anniversary of the murder of Mr. Shabaz Bhatti, a former Pakistani Federal Minister for Minorities who was an outspoken critic of these laws. He also supported the case of Mrs. Asia Bibi who was imprisoned under these laws and whose case is on appeal. The matter is being raised on a cross-party basis and with the support of Independent Deputies. It is also being raised today in a number of parliaments throughout the world.

I call on the Government to reiterate our support for Articles 18 and 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which acknowledges the rights to freedom of religion and speech and for the reform of the blasphemy laws in Pakistan. A number of parties in Pakistan support the call for their reform and attempts have previously been made to this end, including by the ruling party in Pakistan. A Bill brought forward last year by a Pakistan People's Party Member of Parliament aimed at their reform was withdrawn.

A great deal of pressure is exerted internally in Pakistan not to reform the blasphemy laws. There are different reforms that could be introduced. Many convictions are achieved in the lower courts and it has been proposed that such matters should, in the first instance, be dealt with in the higher courts. It is important that a friendly country such a Ireland put pressure on Pakistan to reform the laws and the government will need the support of other countries in doing so.

Deputy Robert Troy

I add my voice to those of my colleagues from the other political parties and the Independent benches in support of Articles 18 and 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. They acknowledge the rights of freedom of religion and freedom of speech, which comprise some of the basic human rights a person can have. At my party's conference over the weekend, I spoke on true republicanism and on liberty, equality and fraternity. We are fortunate to live in a republic in which one can have freedom of speech and religion. Unfortunately, for many years these were not always tolerated but, thankfully, that no longer is the case.

I support my colleagues on this issue, which we have raised on the anniversary of the horrific murder of the former Pakistani Federal Minister for Minorities. The Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade should bring forward all possible pressure to ensure Pakistan reforms its blasphemy law. I support this because I consider the recognition of a crime of blasphemy to offend the basic human rights of freedom of religion and speech. I believe all governments have a duty to protect their citizens from violent religious extremists. We are fortunate we do not suffer in this country in that regard and I support my colleagues in urging the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to bring to bear any pressure he can on the Pakistani Government.

Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan

I acknowledge the work of Deputy Tuffy and Mr. David Turner in organising a petition on the case of Mrs. Asia Bibi last September, which was a first positive step. Ireland is seeking election to the United Nations Human Rights Council for the 2013-2015 term, and we deserve that seat. We have a fine reputation in respect of relationships with other countries and with regard to our development aid budget. Like Deputy Mac Lochlainn, I have just come from a meeting of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, at which this point was being made. I also heard the same point last night at a presentation by various NGOs. As we know Ireland has such a reputation and has a voice that is listened to, I believe it has a role in this regard, even though it concerns a country that is far distant from Ireland.

Governor Salman Taseer was murdered in January 2011 and this was followed in March 2011 by the murder of the Federal Minister, Shahbaz Bhatti. They were two brave men who spoke out against Pakistan's blasphemy laws and paid with their lives. The situation now has arisen concerning the aforementioned lady, Mrs. Asia Bibi, who is in jail. Part of her difficulty is that no date has been given and, consequently, she could remain in jail for a number of years before her case is heard. In common with my colleagues, I advocate marking this anniversary by reiterating our support for Articles 18 and 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In her response, the Minister might indicate any correspondence the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade has had with the Pakistani authorities.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

I welcome the opportunity to add my party's support to this initiative from Deputy Tuffy and Mr. David Turner of the Church in Chains organisation. A series of reprehensible events has led to this initiative today. Unfortunately and sadly, many countries lack genuine religious freedom which is a fundamental human right. Huge challenges exist in Pakistan for its Government to grapple with, but it has not met these challenges to date. They include the murder of one of its own Ministers, who was leading a campaign to reform the blasphemy laws and who was trying to address the injustices within that country. The purpose of raising this Topical Issue matter is to show solidarity and unity. I am certain that all political parties and Independent Members in this House will unite to send a message to the Pakistani Government that it must address this issue. We are partners with Pakistan in the global community. While it has an embassy in and relationships with this country which we value immensely, this issue must be addressed. I hope the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade will meet the Pakistani ambassador on foot of this topical matter and will engage with the Pakistani Government to convey the concerns of his House to it and to ask it to address these issues.

Deputy Joan Burton

I thank Deputies Tuffy, Troy, Mac Lochlainn and Maureen O'Sullivan for raising this important matter. Human rights are and always have been a priority of successive Irish Governments and a key plank of their foreign policy. Together with our EU partners, Ireland monitors the human rights situations in many countries throughout the world on the basis of information obtained from a variety of sources, including both official channels and non-governmental or civil society organisations. Where and when the situation warrants, we make known our concerns about human rights violations to the governments in question. We do this bilaterally, through the EU or through action at the UN General Assembly and the UN Human Rights Council, as appropriate.

The Government remains concerned about the case of Mrs. Asia Bibi. In November 2010 a Punjabi court found Mrs. Bibi guilty of blasphemy and sentenced her to death by hanging. This is the first time a woman has been sentenced to death in Pakistan under its blasphemy law. When the case came to the attention of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, the ambassador accredited to Pakistan at the time called upon the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Islamabad to convey Ireland's concern at the conviction and sentence. He also expressed our disquiet at the nature of Pakistan's blasphemy law. Since that time, a number of representations have been made to the Embassy of Pakistan by senior officials in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. Mrs. Bibi's case and Pakistan's blasphemy laws were discussed at length during bilateral political consultations in Dublin in 2011, which were held with the Pakistani Additional Foreign Secretary for Europe. In the course of these consultations, Ireland's concerns about the conviction, the sentence and the nature of Pakistan's blasphemy laws again were strongly expressed.

At the European level, the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Catherine Ashton, also has expressed her concerns at the Bibi judgement and others like it and has called on Pakistan to respect human rights as guaranteed under international conventions to which it is a party. The EU engages in regular dialogue with Pakistan on human rights and democratic principles, including religious discrimination. The EU has called on the Pakistani authorities, at the highest level, to adopt measures to protect individual and minority rights in line with its constitution and with international human rights standards and conventions. The EU has made clear to the Government of Pakistan that under its constitutional and international requirements, it has a responsibility to protect its citizens regardless of their faith.

The controversial application of the blasphemy laws is a source of deep concern for the EU. In the view of Ireland and its EU partners, the blasphemy laws in their current form are open to abuse. Most recently in the EU-Pakistan dialogue on human rights that took place in February 2012, the EU expressed concerns at the rise of fundamentalist and sectarian violence and encouraged the Government of Pakistan to reform the blasphemy laws, emphasising nevertheless that the response needs to be broader and that real efforts to counter intolerance must come from Pakistan itself.

Respect for human rights is a cornerstone of foreign policy for both Ireland and the European Union as a whole. The Pakistani Government has made commitments to protect religious minorities and to promote religious tolerance. However, real and tangible progress on the ground is what is required. I urge the Pakistani Government to resolve Mrs. Bibi's case as soon as possible and to initiate a thorough review of its blasphemy law, including the use of the death penalty. I also ask it to respond to the concerns of Ireland and the international community by addressing the conditions of Mrs. Bibi's detention. Mrs. Bibi's case will continue to be followed closely by the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, and officials in his Department will remain in contact with the Pakistani authorities on this matter.

The elimination of religious intolerance and persecution has been at the forefront of Ireland's human rights agenda for the past 20 years.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

I welcome the Government's efforts to date in respect of this matter. I hope pressure will continue to be exerted in any bilateral discussions involving the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade and both the Government of Pakistan and that county's embassy here. I also hope that what the Minister for Social Protection stated in her reply will be conveyed to the Pakistani embassy. I acknowledge the efforts of the Church in Chains organisation, to which Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan referred earlier, in respect of this matter. Church in Chains has done a great deal of work in the context of keeping this matter on the agenda and in keeping Deputies informed.

Deputy Robert Troy

I am glad there is cross-party support in respect of this extremely important matter. I encourage the Government to continue on its current path in the context of highlighting this issue at every level to ensure that Mrs. Bibi's case will be resolved as quickly as possible. As long as the blasphemy laws in Pakistan remain as they stand, there is a danger that similar cases will arise. Unless the legislation in Pakistan is amended, there will be further problems. The Government should continue to work with the EU to ensure religious freedom and freedom of speech will be protected.

Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan

One of the other alarming aspects of cases of this nature is the way in which death sentences are carried out by mobs. I accept that the Pakistani Government has indicated that it is committed to this issue. However, it appears to be talking the talk rather than walking the walk. Given that the anniversary of the murder of the late Minister for minorities has just passed, I am of the view that strong representations should be made to the Pakistani ambassador and that he should be asked to take this matter further.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

I thank the Minister for replying on behalf of the Tánaiste. A petition signed by 26 Oireachtas Members from various parties has been given to the Pakistani ambassador. The Pakistani Government is, therefore, aware of the views of politicians of all hues in this House and that of the Government. However, it is time for action to be taken. It is intolerable that religious discrimination and human rights abuses are accepted in Pakistan to the point where even a Government Minister who was trying to take action on this matter was assassinated. It is time to move beyond the niceties of diplomacy and demand that the Pakistani Government offer a more appropriate response. I request that the Tánaiste communicate with the four Deputies who raised this matter and provide them with a report on the further steps he proposes to take in respect of it.

Deputy Joan Burton

I again thank the four Deputies for contributing to the debate on this matter. I am very conscious of the fact that Mrs. Bibi is the mother of five children. We are on the eve of International Women's Day and the sentiments expressed by the Deputies provide a strong indication of the difficulties experienced by women in confinement.

It is approximately ten years since the people voted to formally end the use of the death penalty in this country by having the appropriate clause inserted in the Constitution. As a result, our opposition to the death penalty is now reflected in that document. Ireland is acknowledged internationally as being one of the countries which is most strong in raising matters of this nature bilaterally with the relevant governments, at the EU and at the relevant UN fora. I will convey to the Tánaiste the sentiments expressed by the Deputies.

Care of the Elderly

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

This issue relates to the loss of 41 long-term care beds at St. Mary's Hospital in the Phoenix Park, which is located in my constituency. The closure of these beds follows on from a recommendation from the Health Information Quality Authority, HIQA. I am sure the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, can imagine the concern and stress to which this has given rise among the residents and patients at St. Mary's and among their families and members of the wider community.

Bed closures have been causing chaos throughout the hospital system for many years. We have reached the point where not only are adults being left on trolleys but now children are also being left on them. There are reports of sick children lying on trolleys in hospital corridors for up to 24 days. I am sure the Minister of State is fully aware that there is a direct correlation between delayed discharges from hospitals, on one hand, and waiting lists for those who require long-term care beds in hospitals such as St. Mary's, on the other.

We all know that the cost of placing a person in a long-term care bed is only a fraction of the cost of keeping them in a regular hospital bed. The Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, and his special adviser, who is extremely well paid, are both aware of this. It is worth noting that the Minister's most senior adviser, Dr. Martin Connor - the man responsible for the special delivery unit - was awarded a three-year contract worth €480,00 in December. Dr. Connor devotes 80% of his working hours to the Minister and I understand the remainder are dedicated to his position as a research fellow at Stanford University in California. Sara Burke, a health analyst and journalist, recently noted that Dr. Connor has attended just four of the 13 HSE board meetings held since his appointment last June.

The HSE's regional service plan 2012 states that across the entire north-east region - which covers Louth, Meath, Cavan, Monaghan and Dublin city and county - between 200 to 250 additional long-term care beds will be provided in the current year. The same document also states that in view of the staffing and financial challenges which the HSE faces, the closure of some beds is unavoidable. It further states that it is not expected that closures of public long-term care beds will exceed 105 for the north-east region. We are just over two months into 2012 and now one hospital in north Dublin is due to lost 41 beds. Is the Minister of State in a position to make a commitment to our citizens that the net loss of public long-term care beds will not exceed 105? I suspect that she will not be in a position to give an undertaking in this regard. In the context of St. Mary's Hospital in the Phoenix Park, the Minister of State must indicate how the 41 beds that are due to be lost will be replaced. She must also state whether these beds will be replaced within the north Dublin catchment area.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Kathleen Lynch)

I will adhere strictly to the script with which I have been provided when making my initial reply but I hope the Deputy and I might be able to engage in a little more free-flowing exchange of views thereafter. I thank her for raising this matter.

St. Mary's Hospital was built in 1769. It was originally the Royal Hibernian Military School. The building was subsequently developed as a hospital by the Irish Army. In 1948 it was transferred to the Dublin Health Authority and developed as a chest hospital. In 1964 the hospital became a facility for older people. St. Mary's primarily provides accommodation to dependent older persons aged 65 years or over who require admission, assessment, rehabilitation, respite and continuing care. Following an inspection by HIQA towards the end of 2011, the HSE decided to close two wards at the hospital. The Deputy will appreciate that certain wards in the older parts of the facility are extremely antiquated and are, by their nature, unfit for purpose. It should be noted also that at the time of building the new community nursing units at St. Mary's Hospital in 2008, it was envisaged that bed numbers in the older part of the facility would be reduced. One such ward has closed and the residents have been transferred to more appropriate residential care facilities in the area. A second ward is being closed, bringing the total reduction to 41 beds. Staff are working with the residents and their families to ensure residents are placed in the most appropriate care settings for their needs.

As the Deputy is aware, the HSE is facing challenges in respect of all services in 2012. In the case of community nursing units, these include challenges regarding staffing, funding and the age and structure of its units. The HSE national service plan anticipates that between a minimum of 555 and maximum of 898 residential beds in public nursing homes could close during 2012. We are working very intently on that issue.

The Minister, Deputy Reilly, has requested that the HSE provide him with a plan which seeks to protect the viability of as many units as possible within the funding and staffing resources available. It is accepted that this will require a combination of actions such as consolidation of services and changes in staffing, skill mix and work practices. The plan will also have to take into account different types of services required, the age and structure of public units and the capacity available within an area. All developments have to be addressed in the light of the current economic and budgetary pressures and any decisions taken by the HSE must have regard to this and the current moratorium. I trust the House and the Deputy will agree that we need to ensure that the highest standard of care will continue to be provided to all residents in a safe and secure environment. Providing quality and safe care will always remain at the heart of any consideration.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Quality and safe care must be at the heart of service provision. The manner in which very many of the families discovered the news that beds were being lost and a second ward was to be closed was much less than satisfactory. It began as a sort of whisper and rumour and I should reiterate the level of anxiety that this caused. I appreciate entirely that budgetary considerations are real and the moratorium and other strands of Government policy are causing significant difficulties in the health service. In the case of care for older people, other factors must also be calculated, including the attachment of the person in question to their place of residence, the concerns and anxieties of the families and the adverse consequences of moving an older, weaker and perhaps vulnerable individual. It is all very well to say that people have been moved to other appropriate facilities but one must also calculate the ability of families to access those facilities, and in this case those matters have not been properly calculated.

I asked the Minister of State during the course of my remarks about the HSE service plans, which were mentioned in the response. The HSE indicated that closure of some beds would be unavoidable and it did not expect that in the case of the north-east Dublin region the closures would exceed 105 beds. Nevertheless we are 41 beds down in March. Does the Government stand by the 105-bed figure and is it the case that those 41 beds will be replaced elsewhere? Have they been counted out? Does the Minister of State share my view that in dealing with these particular circumstances for older people the HSE, specifically, must be mindful of the age of the people concerned and the sensitivities of the families, which was not the case this time?

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

As I do not have direct involvement in this issue, I am very much going on the information provided for me. The ideal is for nobody to be disturbed but the condition of certain units means that people will have to be moved as patients cannot stay in units unfit for purpose. This arises from independent evaluation from HIQA. Such issues will occur and will continue to do so.

I have no reason not to believe the HSE service plan despite the Deputy noting that we are already 41 beds down very early in the year. That had been planned since 2008 and the additional six new wards built on the site will accommodate 150 people. People may be attached to where they live despite the conditions of the unit, which I understand perfectly, but nevertheless the new environment is far better, which we must accept. I have no doubt the figure in the service plan will be adhered to.

I have just come from the Sue Ryder Foundation facility in Dalkey, which is an extraordinary complex dealing with older people who live independently but who are supervised with supports. There are people in our charge who need the type of long-term intensive care that people in nursing homes have; we must deal with them and be conscious of their needs and families. Nevertheless, we must begin to change our processes and leading from this we can speak to the people living in the Sue Ryder complex, for example. The Deputy knows them as well as I do. They are living very happily without the type of intensive medical model that can be seen in other areas. We must start to look at alternatives, including talking about stepping up as opposed to always talking about stepping down.

With regard to facilities like St. Mary's Hospital, the new facility is far superior to the older one; it must be when one considers the age of the building and the needs of older people now as opposed to then.

State Airports

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this important issue and the Minister for being present to discuss it. I welcome the Minister's publication of the Booz & Company report, which is very comprehensive. The company consulted widely and brought considerable experience to the report while reviewing international models for ownership and management of airports, which is helpful.

The Minister is well aware that the report has identified five options and evaluated each in order to distil them into two broadly based recommendations identified in the report. The first is termed a restructuring of the Dublin Airport Authority, DAA, with each airport given status as an independent subsidiary within an overall airport grouping, with each airport having an independent board with the capacity to set strategic direction, appoint management teams and develop business plans. I would favour this and recommended it on behalf of my party in our submission to Booz & Company.

The second recommendation indicates that Shannon Airport could be separated from the other two airports, with a local concession established involving local authorities in Clare and Limerick and a regional development agency in the guise of Shannon Development. It is clearly indicated that the capacity of Shannon Airport to survive either on its own or in a new structure would be less than viable if there were fewer than 5 million passengers. There is mention of the airport being in real jeopardy in such a case and we are all concerned about that.

Either of the two options recognise that Shannon has a significant problem and the difficulty is in a separated environment where it is cut adrift from an overall airport umbrella or the DAA. In such a case it would be left with a cash requirement of approximately €8 million per year. Involving the local authorities and Shannon Development or expecting that the land bank can be monetised in the current climate is farcical. I accept the Minister has not made a determination on it, but I want to use the opportunity to clearly state the future viability of Shannon Airport would be compromised greatly if local authorities or Shannon Development were expected to provide additional revenues to meet the ongoing running costs of an airport which is the default location for transatlantic emergencies and required to be open 24 hours a day, seven days a week. This service cannot be provided without a subvention, unless the number of passengers is 5 million. The report clearly indicates this is not possible or feasible, even in the medium term.

The report calls on the Government to clarify its overall aviation policy, which is important. I expect in any review or restatement of the Government's policy on aviation regional development to be rightly identified as an important component.

The report speaks about whether the Government needs to restate its position on competition. I am not sure competition between the three State airports is such a big issue because they serve very different markets.

The report mentions the benefits in having a less crowded airport landscape which may require the Minister to move towards reducing their number. It also mentions the issues of debt and pensions which need to be addressed.

Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport (Deputy Leo Varadkar)

Tá a fhios ag an Teachta gur chuir an Aire Iompair a bhí ann i 2008 an cinneadh maidir le scarúint Aerfort Chorcaí agus Aerfort na Sionainne, mar a bhí beartaithe faoin Acht um Aerfoirt Stáit 2004, ar ceal go dtí an bhliain seo caite. Ar cúpla fáth, bhí an cinneadh sin curtha siar i ndiaidh achtú an reachtaíocht chumasúcháin. Ní dóigh liom gur féidir leanúint i bhfad níos faide leis an socrú atá ann ó 2004, ina bhfuil a mboird féin ag Aerfort Chorcaí agus Aerfort na Sionainne ach gan mórán saoirse ó Údarás Aerfort Bhaile Átha Cliath a bheith acu. Ní féidir leanúint ach an oiread leis an meicníocht ina bhfuil caillteanais Aerfort Chorcaí agus Aerfort na Sionainne á ghlacadh ag Údarás Aerfort Bhaile Átha Cliath. Tá mé den tuairim go bhfuil sé in am cinntí daingne a thógáil faoi todhchaí na haerfoirt. As a first step in the process, I consulted the Dublin, Cork and Shannon Airport authorities on separation and their unanimous view was there was no support for separation, as originally envisaged under the State Airports Act.

Taking account of these responses and following a public procurement process, I commissioned Booz & Company to identify and analyse all likely options regarding the ownership and operation of Cork and Shannon Airports and make clear recommendations on the optimal ownership and operational structures for them. The consultants who are experts in aviation matters with international experience were asked to consult as widely as possible with stakeholders in Cork and Shannon on sustainable options for the two airports. Their report was finalised and submitted to me in December. The report analyses the viability and sustainability of Cork and Shannon Airports and, on this basis, suggests two recommended approaches with regard to their future.

A redacted version of the report is available on my Department's website at www.dttas.ie with any commercially sensitive information omitted. I do not propose to go into the detail of the consultants’ recommendations now, as, even with these redactions, their recommendations are clear for anyone interested in accessing the report.

The contents of the report were noted by the Government at a meeting at the end of January. We are now engaging with relevant stakeholders and the Deputy will appreciate a number of complex issues must be resolved before final decisions can be made. These include the financial implications for the airports in the event of a change in the status quo; the DAA pension deficit; the continued downturn in the aviation market and the possible need for legislative changes. However, when I have consulted all relevant stakeholders, I intend to bring proposals to the Government on the future of Cork and Shannon Airports. I hope to be in a position to do this around Easter.

We can all agree that the status quo at Shannon Airport is not working well and that this year its passenger numbers continue to fall, particularly as a result of the reduction in the number of military flights. Passenger numbers at Cork Airport are increasing, while those at Dublin Airport are falling slightly. As the Deputy pointed out, two models have been put forward. One of these is the CIE model which is an option, but I am not yet satisfied it would result in sufficient change because an independent subsidiarity which requires another for subvention is not really independent. The other option is full independence, the detail of which must be figured out because I can only recommend it to the Government if I believe it will be financially viable. I am not willing to do anything that I do not believe in my heart will be a success. The whole point of the process is to make a success of an airport which has been in decline for some time. Whatever happens I assure anyone with concerns that the airport will stay open. Business interests have raised concerns that there could be a risk to Heathrow flights. Certainly, the airport will remain open and there are no concerns about flights on any of the existing routes. I have discussed the matter with the airlines and assure people in the business community in the region that, based on the information I have available, there is no threat to long-term access.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I thank the Minister and appreciate his clarification. He spoke about subvention and the difficulty that a subsidiary would not be independent if it was dependent on another for subvention. The Booz & Company report makes it clear that an airport with fewer than 5 million passengers would not be self-sustaining. Therefore, it would require a subvention from somewhere and it would be from one arm of the State or another. One cannot expect local authorities to find a fanciful pool of money in the current climate. The Minister is sitting beside the Minister of Finance who is well aware that local authorities do not have the money required; neither does Shannon Development. There was a time when it had a strong rent roll or revenue generating capacity from its asset base, but this has been well compromised because of the downturn in its revenue streams.

The Minister is looking at allowing the local authorities to close the airport should it fall into their hands, as they would be left with no choice but to scale down operations and ultimately close it because of the very significant cost of running it. Even with trimming back airport operations further, I cannot see how it has the capacity to survive. The Minister has made the point that what is needed is something that will initiate growth. I do not know how this growth in passenger numbers will be generated in the short term. At best, as some seek to suggest, with independent status, the airport could somehow compete with Cork and Dublin Airports, but I doubt it has the capacity to compete effectively in this space. All that would happen is passengers would be taken from these airports, which would ultimately compromise their balance sheets and revenue streams.

We need an overall policy. In fairness, the Minister has been working on such a policy through some of the measures he has introduced to increase the level of inward activity which will help all of the airports. However, he must look at the provision of a subvention as the only realistic method of retaining the airport and ensuring its future viability. I question his capacity to subvent it in a separated environment. He can continue to do so while it is attached via an umbilical cord to the umbrella group or the CIE model but outside this he would have real difficulties. Whether he likes it, he may not be in a position to prevent its ultimate closure if there is a further deterioration in economic activity or the level of airline travel.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

I appreciate what the Deputy says about airports with fewer than 5 million passengers not being sustainable, but there are airports throughout the world with passenger numbers of approximately 1 million which are sustainable. They have to match their operations with the level of sustainability.

Local authorities may have a role to play in ensuring the future of Shannon Airport, but I do not believe it will be their role to subvent or run it. Notwithstanding the fact that there are very strong local authorities in the region, they do not have the skills to do this and it is not what was intended. When the consultants were examining this issue, they might have been thinking more of Manchester and Leeds-Bradford Airports, but they are within the remit of very different local authorities for areas of population of 1 million to 4 million people.

The overall policy has been to reduce the number of airports. To this end, subvention has been withdrawn from Galway and Sligo Airports. Over time other airports being subvented will have to break even. By 2014 it will be unusual or unique for any airport to receive a subvention. This needs to be borne in mind.

On the future of Shannon Airport, its debt presents a big issue. As the Deputy mentioned, it needs approximately €8 million in cash to break even. If this debt can be written down or part of it left with the Dublin Airport Authority, it would drastically reduce the subvention. This is one of the issues that must be considered. Notwithstanding what action will be taken, at a minimum some form of golden share arrangement will be required to ensure the Government can step in again to ensure there is no risk or concern of closure at any stage.