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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 15 Mar 2012

Vol. 759 No. 3

Leaders’ Questions

We will commence with Leaders' Questions. I invite Deputy Dooley to ask the first question.

Timmy De Valera.

One of the most memorable promises that the Government broke within the first months of entering into office-----

-----was its pre-election stance on third level fees. We all remember the infamous photograph of the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, outside Trinity College alongside members of the Union of Students in Ireland, USI, in the days before the election when he signed the pledge.

Labour equality.

The pledge was not worth the paper on which it was written. The Minister signed up to a commitment not to re-introduce third level fees and committed to reducing student fees. Neither occurred.

To add insult to that injury, the Government will make it more difficult for people from the self-employed sector and rural families to get student grants to help them to attend college. In March 2011, the Minister nailed his colours to the mast when he spoke to the Irish Farmers’ Journal. He stated: “Up until now there has been a bias towards the self-employed and the agricultural community who were able to quite frankly manipulate their income in a manner in which they could, or their children could, avail of grants”. It is this bias that allowed the Government to decide in the last budget to include farm assets in the means testing for third level grants from 2013. This will discriminate against the children of farm families and, in these recessionary times, against the families of the self-employed, who are under severe financial pressure.

The Minister should be aware of the facts. The average income of many farmers is less than €20,000 per annum. The decision, if implemented by Fine Gael and Labour, will put third level education beyond the reach of many people in those particular sectors. Does the Minister not agree that eligibility should be based on income alone and not include the value of capital assets, as the latter does not give a true picture of income or ability to pay? The Government and the Minister admitted the mistakes made in respect of DEIS schools. I ask him to give the same consideration to this issue with a view to reversing the decision at the earliest possible opportunity.

I congratulate the Deputy on his promotion to raising questions.

It is a temporary arrangement.

The Deputy will talk himself out of it.

The Deputy just got his first answer. Remember Mary Harney.

(Interruptions).

The Labour Deputies will get their turn after the next election. They should get their bags.

A Deputy

That means we will probably be joining Deputy Niall Collins.

(Interruptions).

A Deputy

We will get someone to take Deputy Dooley's place.

Could we have order, please?

Timothy goes to school.

It is a one-page document.

I will help Deputy Coonan read it afterwards.

I thank the Deputy for his question, as it gives me an opportunity to clarify the position on this matter and to allay fears, particularly in the agricultural community, which is experiencing a spectacular year of performance under this Government. We hope it will continue.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

That has nothing to do with the Government.

Has the Government taken control of China?

As far back as the 1990s when Mrs. Niamh Bhreathnach was the Minister for Education, a commission chaired by Dr. Dónal de Butléir reported on equality among people accessing third level grants to participate in third level education. There was found to be a discrimination against PAYE workers and others compared with the self-employed, including members of the farming community. The Deputy will probably be interested in knowing that the largest beneficiaries of grants are the children of the self-employed, not members of the farming community.

We are seeking equality. A capital assets test and means testing system are fair. To minimise bureaucracy, we are trying to put in place the same means testing arrangement for health services, social protection and education. Work is proceeding along those lines. No document has been produced for me yet, but we will examine it when it is produced and the Dáil will discuss the matter before any final decision is made.

It is interesting that the Minister stated that this matter first came to light during the tenure of the former Labour Minister for Education. Clearly, it has been Labour policy to target rural Ireland and the self-employed.

Accuracy, please.

That is not right. Their education is supported.

I am not suggesting that the Minister does not understand, but if he had a clear understanding of the assets associated with farmers or the self-employed, he would know that they are used to generate income and should not in any sense be factored in as representing income.

Is that why the former Government took the installation and early retirement schemes from farmers? They amounted to €30,000 per family.

Those assets cannot be sold or used to generate an income other than the income that is already being derived from them. It is wrong of the Minister to continue as he has been. Regardless of an individual's background, be it self-employed or farming, his or her income is based on the returns submitted to the Revenue Commissioners. This is the only fair and equitable method and is the approach taken in respect of PAYE workers. I do not accept that we can have a different set of rules for the self-employed. I take the Minister's point that there may be a greater number of people in the self-employed sector than there is in the farming sector, but many of them are small business owners who are under severe financial pressure in the current climate. Farming is enjoying a relatively positive phase in its economic cycle but for the past five to seven years farmers were put to the pin of their collar and were losing money. It would be more beneficial to concentrate on verifiable incomes as provided to the Revenue Commissioners rather than seek to impose penalties based on the value of assets.

I regret that the Deputy has sought to scaremonger once again. There is no attack on rural Ireland or the farming community.

What about small schools?

There is no attack on any self-employed group of people. We are looking for fairness and the way in which the Deputy is protesting suggests that he realises that the current system is not fair. This will be done objectively and the conclusions will be published so that we can debate them in this House. The Deputy can then decide whether it is fair or an attack on rural Ireland.

The Government is continuously attacking rural Ireland.

I believe it will be fair and this Fine Gael-Labour Party Government is committed to introducing fairness throughout the country and in every sector.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Yesterday, the High Court gave leave to an individual to challenge the implementation of the household tax. In the Government's haste to obey the diktats of the so-called European partners in paying unsecured and unguaranteed bondholders and picking the pockets of hard-pressed citizens through the implementation of unjust and unfair taxes, it forgot to translate the legislation into our national language. In light of the High Court ruling, coupled with the fact that an overwhelming number of people, myself included, have chosen not to register or pay this unjust tax-----

Deputy O'Brien's boss will pay it up the North.

Uphold the law.

-----is it now time-----

Will they pay for their cartridges?

In light of yesterday's High Court ruling-----

The ballot box and the cartridge.

Can we have order for the Deputy? Every Deputy wants to be heard and Deputy O'Brien has the floor.

Now that the sheep have calmed down-----

Are they black and white sheep?

In light of the High Court ruling, coupled with the overwhelming number of people, myself included, who have chosen not to register for or pay this unjust tax, is it now time for this Government to scrap the household tax altogether?

The household charge will amount to the vast sum of €2 per week.

It will go towards the cost of local services.

A Deputy

Not true.

I recall people previously opposing the bin charges. So successful was their incitement to people not to pay bin charges that the service and the employment that was provided by local authorities ended up being privatised.

It was privatised by Fine Gael and Labour Party councillors.

The very people-----

It is the opposite of what the Tánaiste wanted in the 1980s with water charges.

Deputy Stagg felt the same way.

The Minister has the floor.

This is a charge that will go towards the provision of local services.

Is that the same money the Government took from them in the budget?

It is necessary and-----

When will Sinn Féin look to abolish it in the North?

Every elected Member of this House has a duty to uphold the laws of this land.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Inciting people not to pay the charges means, as was the case with the bin charges, that innocent citizens end up in court because they are encouraged not to comply with the law.

That is not what the Tánaiste said in the 1980s on the water charges.

People who are receiving mortgage interest supplement, those who live in social housing or on certain unfinished ghost estates and the commercial properties and premises owned by charities will be exempt from the charge. A large number of exemptions have been designed to ensure people who have difficulty meeting their commitments will not have to pay. It is a fair charge as far as we are concerned and it is necessary because of the state of the national finances.

Few people listening to this morning's debate believe what the Minister is saying. Despite what he may think, people are not stupid. Funding for local authorities has already been cut by this Government and this is an issue of fairness. The Minister claims the tax is fair but that is contrary to what the Taoiseach and his own party leader has said. Both of them have acknowledged this is an unfair tax. The Minister asserts that legislators have a responsibility to uphold the law.

Uphold the law.

People elected me to introduce just and fair legislation.

Cartridge in one hand, ballot box in the other.

This tax is neither just nor fair and that is why I will not be paying it.

That is ridiculous.

Does Sinn Féin decide what is just?

A question, please.

Is Deputy Adams paying it in the North?

Deputy O'Brien has the floor.

It is hypocrisy.

When those on the Government benches heckle Opposition Deputies trying to make a point, it is a sign that they are losing their argument.

Not a bit of it.

It is time the Minister stopped digging a hole and accepted that he is not going to win this fight, just as he did not win yesterday's vote. It is time to scrap this tax in the interest of fairness. It is time to do the right thing.

This charge is necessary. It is part of where we are at present. It will be a short-lived tax pending the introduction of a more equitable tax but it is necessary and lawful. I urge the Deputy to consider his position in regard to inciting people who earn far less than he does.

I have not incited anyone.

I urge any Deputy who suggests people should not pay the charge to think again. It is not constructive in this democracy.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I wish to raise the plight of our senior citizens during this major economic crisis. We all acknowledge the massive contribution senior citizens have made to this country. They have worked hard and paid their taxes for many years. The programme for Government prioritises investment in care for older people in community and residential settings. Why is the Government ignoring that commitment?

Why did Deputy Finian McGrath vote to take medical cards from the elderly?

The programme also states that funding will be provided for residential places and home care packages. Why did the Government reduce the gas and electricity subsidy for senior citizens by between 18% and 12%? Why was the means tested winter fuel allowance reduced by six weeks? Why were changes introduced to the eligibility rates for the State contributory pension? Why did the Government cut 500,000 home-help hours for the elderly?

Why did Deputy Finian McGrath take their medical cards?

Why is it closing 898 public nursing home beds? I stood up for the elderly in the previous Government.

Which way is the wind blowing?

That is on the record of the House.

I realise the Minister's party feels guilty about these cuts. Is the Minister now using the word "fairness" as a cover word for cuts?

The Deputy should look in the mirror.

I seem to recall that up until the dying days of the previous Administration the Deputy was a fairly enthusiastic supporter.

(Interruptions).

A Deputy

A soldier of destiny, Finian.

He only lasted two months though.

A Deputy

Six months.

They only got six months out of him.

He was a fairly enthusiastic supporter of the Administration that brought the country to its knees and forced us to lose our economic sovereignty, which we have not yet regained and which obliged this Government to introduce a range of measures that are distasteful and painful, but sadly are necessary.

They did not say that during the general election campaign.

Nobody on this side of the House enjoys or relishes the difficulties we have had to impose on households. The alternative as suggested by some people on the far side of the House is simply incapable of being implemented. Therefore, the measures to correct this economy-----

(Interruptions).

If I was in Fianna Fáil I would not enter this debate.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

(Interruptions).

I will meet the Minister in Trinity College.

Deputy Kelleher-----

(Interruptions).

The soldiers of destiny became the soldiers of destitution-----

(Interruptions).

-----in terms of the economic chaos.

Find another plate for them, Jerry.

The Deputy should give us that one in writing.

If Deputy Finian McGrath has specific queries, I would be happy to respond to them-----

Just as he responded to the USI.

-----but not to the array of questions he has asked. If he wants to table specific questions for all those, I would be quite happy to get an answer for him.

The Minister is guilty of classic revisionism.

(Interruptions).

The Deputy is the master at that.

As he knows, in 2008, I voted for senior citizens and voted against the then Government. That is on the record of the House. The people of Ireland know that as do the people of Dublin North Central who re-elected me to the House.

(Interruptions).

The Minister cannot say what he said because I voted against the cuts.

(Interruptions).

I was not referring to what I had said; I was quoting from the programme for Government. I wish to ask the Minister three very short questions regarding dealing with current issues and the troika. Is the Government preparing to get rid of the free travel scheme for pensioners? Is the Government preparing to end the scheme of free gas and electricity units? Here is a chance for the Labour Party. What are then Government's plans for dealing with the issue of medical cards for the over 70s?

(Interruptions).

As the Minister knows this is about choices. The Government can choose to stand with the elderly or impose cuts on them.

Some 300 people in this country are worth €62 billion. The Government should tax them and get €6.2 billion to fund services for the elderly and health services generally.

(Interruptions).

I call the Minister. Can we have order, please?

I welcome the Deputy's supplementary question. Having completed our first year in office, it is the intention of the Government over the next four years to implement the programme for Government and to extend free GP care to every citizen in the State among the things we will do. The decisions, to which the Deputy refers, are not anywhere on the horizon, nor are they contemplated. However, whatever decisions are to be made will be made in due course and will be communicated to the House in the normal way.

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