Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 25 Sep 2012

Vol. 775 No. 3

Magdalen Laundries: Motion [Private Members]

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I move:

That Dáil Éireann:

notes that this motion has been drawn up with a survivor centred ethos;

agrees with the State’s position, as articulated in Dáil Éireann in February 2002, that abuse occurred in the Magdalene Laundries, that the abuse was an appalling breach of trust and that

the victims of that abuse suffered and continue to suffer greatly;

acknowledges the hurt and hardship caused by the exclusion of survivors of the Magdalene Laundries from the Residential Institutions Redress Scheme;

acknowledges that the Magdalene survivor population is predominantly aging and elderly;

acknowledges that survivor testimony records that women were made to work without pay, were kept behind locked doors and returned by gardaí if they attempted to escape;

welcomes the establishment of the Inter-Departmental Committee on Magdalene Laundries to clarify any State interaction with the Magdalene Laundries and to produce a narrative detailing such interaction;

notes the Irish Human Rights Commission document entitled Assessment of the Human Rights Issues Arising in relation to the “Magdalene Laundries”;

notes the UN Committee Against Torture’s recommendations on the Magdalene Laundries, its insistence that the State ensure that survivors obtain redress and its grave concern at the failure by the State to institute prompt, independent and thorough investigations into the allegations of ill-treatment of the women;

further welcomes the public statement of June 2011 by four religious congregations which ran ten Magdalene Laundries expressing a willingness to bring greater clarity, understanding, healing and justice in the interests of all the women involved;

further acknowledges that there is growing evidence of the State:

— sending women and girls to the Magdalene Laundries;

— providing the religious orders with direct and indirect financial support; and

— failing to supervise the religious orders’ operation of the Magdalene Laundries;

considers most serious the allegations of forced labour in the Magdalene Laundries, noting the incarceration and use of women and children as workers without pay would constitute forced labour under the 1930 Forced Labour Convention of the International Labour Organisation, which Ireland ratified in 1931, and accepts that the rejection and prohibition of slavery is a peremptory norm of international law;

acknowledges the need for immediate and meaningful discussion on an apology and redress;

commits to providing immediate funding for, and implementation of, a helpline for the survivors of the Magdalene Laundries;

commits to supporting survivors in accessing pensions that reflect their years of work in the Magdalene Laundries; and

commits to an open and meaningful debate on the issue of an apology, redress and restorative justice measures once the Inter-Departmental Committee has reported.

Before dealing with the motion, I will take a moment to recognise the strength and bravery of the survivors of the Magdalen laundries. More than 30,000 women and girls were incarcerated in these institutions, endured brutal hardship and worked without pay. They have lived with the stigma attached to being confined in the laundries, a confinement that was not their fault. The State has failed these women at every turn. They are both victims and survivors. We applaud their courage in coming forward and telling their story, we stand alongside them in their fight for justice and we offer them our profound apology for the failure of the State to protect them. They did nothing wrong; they were innocent victims of a brutal, intolerant system overseen and enforced by the State and religious orders.

The motion has been written with a survivor centred ethos. Politics has failed the women in question so we have looked to them to tell us what they need and what must be delivered. By shirking its responsibilities the State has played for time, which the women in question do not have. We put the Government on notice that this issue and these women will not go away.

There has already been ample acknowledgement of the abuse that took place in the Magdalene laundries. In February 2010, the then Minister for Education and Science, while explaining his exclusion of the Magdalen women from the residential institutions redress scheme, stated he did not "wish to dismiss the fact that abuse of adults could and did occur in Magdalen Laundries or that the abuse was an appalling breach of trust or, indeed, that the victims of that abuse suffered and continue to suffer greatly." Survivors have documented in heartbreaking detail the violence they endured. They worked without pay, were kept behind locked doors and were returned by the Garda if they attempted to leave.

There is a wealth of evidence in the public domain which shows the State provided direct and indirect financial supports to the laundries. The Ryan report details the women’s forced, unpaid labour in the laundries and notes that their working conditions were harsh. The women were deprived of their liberty and forced to work without pay, which constitutes slavery as defined in international law. The women and girls also suffered both physical and emotional abuse.

The need for acknowledgement and redress has also been set out in the public domain. In November 2010, the Irish Human Rights Commission found that serious human rights issues arose in the laundries and called on the Government to establish immediately a statutory inquiry into their treatment and provide redress to the survivors, as appropriate. In June 2011, the United Nations Committee Against Torture recommended that the State institute prompt, independent and thorough investigations and, in appropriate cases, prosecutions in addition to affording redress, compensation and rehabilitation to the Magdalene women. The women are predominantly elderly and many of them are in ill health as a direct consequence of their incarceration in the laundries.

Also in June 2011, the four religious congregations which ran the institutions expressed a willingness to bring greater clarity, understanding, healing and justice in the interests of all the women involved. Despite this, the State continues to refute its collusion with the same religious orders in the incarceration and forced labour of the women for commercial gain. It does so despite the fact that its judicial system regularly referred women to the Magdalen laundries. The Justice for Magdalenes group has provided the State with evidence that women and girls found guilty of a crime were referred to the Magdalen laundries and other religious run institutions throughout the State in almost every year following independence until at least 1983. These committals were far worse than the equivalent prison sentence as the women were incarcerated for periods far exceeding their original sentences. In many cases, the crimes in question were as simple as the theft of an apple or a pen.

The stigma attached to incarcerations in the Magdalen laundries was horrendous. It is for this reason, perhaps above all other reasons, that an acknowledgement and a State apology are so urgently needed. In a Seanad debate in 1960, Senator Connolly O'Brien spoke of the lifelong stigma attaching to a girl sent to the laundries. She stated: "If I were asked to advise girl delinquents, no matter what offences they were charged with, whether to go to prison on remand, or to go to St. Mary Magdalen's Asylum on remand, I would advise them wholeheartedly to choose prison, because I think having a record of having been in prison as a juvenile delinquent would not be so detrimental to the after life of the girl as to have it legally recorded that she was an inmate of St. Mary Magdalen's Asylum." Justice for Magdalenes has also provided evidence dating back to the 1920s of a magistrate's comments that "in many instances offenders have expressed to me in Court a desire to go, in some cases they have begged to be sent, to prison rather than a home."

Women were held in the laundries pre-trial and sent to them after release from long sentences in prison. Orphaned, neglected or abandoned children and children who did not attend school were sent to industrial schools and their experiences have been well documented. Religious orders often transferred girls directly from these industrial schools into the laundries.

The Ryan report contains evidence of girls as young as 13 being transferred to a Magdalen laundry to work in order to compensate the religious order for their mothers' failure to pay the required payments for their keep in the industrial school.

The State's complicity with the Magdalen regime was underwritten in law. The Local Government (Temporary Provisions) Act 1923 provided a statutory basis for using the Galway Magdalen laundry to confine women seeking public assistance for a second or subsequent pregnancy outside of marriage. In 1928, the Commission on the Relief of the Sick and the Destitute Poor similarly recommended mandatory incarceration in the laundries for women applying for maternity assistance a second time. More recently, the 1970 Kennedy report into reformatory and industrial schools details the many reasons why girls and women were placed in the laundries. It noted the so-called voluntary arrangement for placement could be criticised on several fronts, questioned their legal validity and found that the girls admitted were not aware of their rights.

Those who sought to escape their imprisonment were returned by the Garda, regardless of the reason they had been confined in the laundries in the first instance. One survivor, telling of her efforts to escape, was asked on her capture by the Garda why had she had tried to escape. She replied it was because the nuns were cutting her hair and putting her in a hole all the time. The gardaí involved did nothing to protect her; they simply returned her to the very people who were abusing her. This is just one example of a vast catalogue of the State's failure to supervise the religious orders' operation of the Magdalen laundries.

Tonight's motion sets out clear support for the work of the interdepartmental committee established under the chairmanship of Senator Martin McAleese. I do not, however, accept that this committee should be used as a delaying tactic or as a rationale for withholding the apology, acknowledgement and supports that the Magdalen women are due. The facts of the brutality in the laundries have been established. The complicity of the State has been established. The McAleese committee is tasked with quantifying the extent of that collusion. It must be very clear that the facts of cruelty and State collusion stand established.

This Government, however, hides behind the interdepartmental committee. It is its last fig-leaf, its last excuse to stand still. It does this in the full knowledge that time is not on the side of the aging Magdalen women. The Government offers no apology and refuses even the meagre comfort of their pension entitlements. Those are the pension entitlements of incarcerated women and girl slaves.

The Government's amendment to this motion is dishonourable. It dishonours this democratic assembly. It belies the Government's priority of protecting the State above vindicating the women, the same State that failed thousands of women and girls by holding them in the laundries. This evening, by failing to support this motion, it tramples on their rights again.

Several years ago, it was a different matter. In 2009, Labour Party women called for a separate redress scheme for the Magdalen women. In 2010, Deputy Burton, who was to become the Minister for Social Protection, said she strongly supported justice and restitution for these women. Deputy Alan Shatter, now the Minister for Justice and Equality, said the State was directly complicit in the confinement of these women and children. Three current Ministers of State made the very same arguments in opposition yet the Magdalen survivors still cannot even access their pension entitlements. Where did it all go wrong?

I acknowledge the support for this motion by the Independents and Technical Group Members. I also welcome Fianna Fáil's support. I had asked the Government to support this motion because it is couched in language that simply reflects what happened. However, it has refused to do so and it has refused to give some comfort to the Magdalen women. Instead, it has chosen to completely ignore the word, spirit and intent of the motion. The Labour Party and the Fine Gael Party cannot even commit to providing the meagre supports the Magdalen women need now. These women and girls were stripped of their rights. They were the innocent victims of a barbaric system. The State colluded with religious orders to enslave them in laundries run for commercial gain. Abuse did take place and trust was breached. These facts have already been established.

I ask for Members on the Government benches to support this motion. It is one they can support in good conscience. The Magdalen women deserve the Government's support. They have suffered for a very long time. The very least they can expect at this juncture is a unified voice from the Dáil that says to them that we acknowledge and accept their story, we apologise, we will ensure the basic services they need in the here and now will be put in place and we commit to redress. Time is against us, the clock is ticking and justice cannot wait for ever.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

This is a very important motion. We must all hope that it is also another significant step on the road to justice and truth for the former detainees in the Magdalen laundries. That will be decided by the Minister and her colleagues in government.

I commend the Justice for Magdalenes campaign group for their work. It has given a voice to women who were appallingly treated over decades. They were the forgotten women and girls whose lives meant little or nothing to church and State authorities and whose memory was erased by official Ireland. Until they themselves spoke up through Justice for the Magdalenes, few knew the reality of what they endured.

This is no small scandal. We are talking about the illegal confinement, detention and treatment of thousands of innocent women forced to work in the so-called Magdalen laundries over several decades. These women had nothing. They did not know their rights. They had no one at that time to advocate for them. Like the children abused in other residential institutions, they were surrounded by a wall of silence and ignorance.

I commend to all Deputies the submission from Justice for Magdalenes to the interdepartmental committee in May of this year. I will cite one extract from it:

The reality is that incarceration in the Magdalene laundries was very similar to being sent to prison. The survivors clearly express this view. One recalls, "I felt as if I was being sentenced to a prison. Indeed, at a certain level I was a prisoner". Another says, "Definitely it was a prison. You get paid in a prison. But this was a prison. There was no doubt about it, it was a prison". A third says simply, "These were prisons".

The State resisted calls to establish a prison for young girls similar to the borstal-type institutions for young boys. The availability of the Magdalen laundries, operated by the Catholic religious orders, enabled the State's Judiciary to use them as an alternative to imposing a prison sentence.

With other Deputies in the last Dáil and before, I was proud to support this campaign. In July of last year, I hosted a briefing session here in Leinster House for Deputies and Senators and their support staff on the issue of the confinement, detention and treatment of thousands of innocent women forced to work in the so-called Magdalen laundries over several decades. It was the hard work of Justice for Magdalenes that conclusively disproved the State's claims that the women were in these institutions voluntarily or solely at the behest of their families. That fiction has now been firmly laid to rest, thanks to documents uncovered by Justice for Magdalenes.

In response to the Justice for Magdalenes submission, the UN Committee against Torture called for an independent investigation into the abuse at the laundries and redress for the women held there. It also recommended prosecution and penalties for those who had perpetrated the abuse. It is regrettable that the Government did not see fit to issue an apology with its announcement of the interdepartmental group to investigate the role of the State. The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, said it would be more appropriate to wait until the outcome of the investigation. Sadly, some of the survivors will be unable to wait that long and they are all entitled to an apology now. Issuing it would not preclude a further apology when the full extent of the Government's complicity is revealed. Is it too much to expect that the State would say sorry twice?

The reply to a parliamentary question I tabled last year revealed that three of the four orders involved in running the Magdalen laundries had received a total of €87 million from the HSE in the past five years. During the so-called boom years the Sisters of Mercy made €165 million in land sales. The Sisters of Our Lady of Charity earned €61.8 million on the land surrounding the mass grave of Magdalen victims discovered in 1993. The contrast with the funds available to the laundry survivors could not be more stark: they received no pay for their years of forced labour; they are not in receipt of pensions and they were excluded from the residential institutions redress scheme. I reiterate our endorsement for the Justice for Magdalenes group's support for the inclusion of the Bethany Home survivors in the schedule to the residential institutions redress scheme.

I appeal earnestly to the Government to withdraw its amendment. It is not too late to do so. The motion not only has the stated support of all who have signed it and the further stated support of the Fianna Fáil Party, but I believe it also has the support of the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch. I call on her to be courageous and stand up and so declare.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

I, too, welcome the opportunity to discuss this important issue. The Sinn Féin Party did everything in its power to try to ensure the motion received the support of every Member. It is unfortunate that we do not find ourselves in that position tonight, but I thank all of the Members who signed the motion and indicated their support for it, especially those in the Technical Group, Independent Deputies and Fianna Fáil Deputies. Unfortunately, the Government side has seen fit to bring forward its amendment. However well meaning they try to portray it, it is a matter of regret because this is a missed opportunity for all Members to speak with one voice on behalf of the victims. As the previous two speakers outlined, the primary purpose of the motion is to keep the issue of the Magdalen laundries at the top of the political agenda and try to finally arrive at a position where the Government will act decisively and swiftly, unlike previous Governments, by providing redress for the cruelty and abuse inflicted on the women concerned, with a much overdue apology on behalf of the State. Many speakers tonight and tomorrow night will rightly focus on the injustices inflicted on the women of the Magdalen laundries.

As Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin noted, it is equally important not to forget another dark episode in our recent history. We are mindful of another group of survivors who were treated in an equally appalling way by the State, that is, the women and children who suffered in Bethany Home. Like the Magdalen laundries survivors, they have campaigned courageously for an apology and an independent inquiry into what happened in that residential home. It is important to reflect on what happened. We know that between 1922 and 1949 more than 220 children died in Bethany Home, of whom some 219 are buried in unmarked graves in Mount Jerome cemetery. We know that countless others suffered illness and abuse resulting from neglect. As far back as 1939, there were reports of the abuse that people had suffered in this residential home. We have heard countless stories of children being insufficiently cared for, going unwashed, sick, neglected and left in soiled nappies for lengthy periods. This is the most appalling abuse that anyone could put any child through. Bethany Home symbolises the abandonment of the State's duty of care to women and children who found themselves in institutions.

It is regrettable that the plight of the victims of Bethany Home have been largely ignored and disregarded by previous Governments. Earlier this year when we were discussing the Residential Institutions Statutory Fund Bill, there was an opportunity to go some way to try to rectify this. During the debate we brought forward a motion that would have seen the establishment of a separate redress board for the women of the Magdalen laundries and the Bethany Home survivors. Unfortunately, like the previous Governments which failed to address this issue, the Minister for Education and Skills could not find it within himself to support the amendment. During the debate he cited the well worn excuses of previous Governments about the potential cost to the State and the fact that the Bethany Home survivors had come from a privately run mother and baby institution and, therefore, were not entitled to redress. This is all the more regrettable when one considers that there are serving Ministers and Ministers of State on the Government benches who held very different views when they sat on these benches. For example, in 2010 during a memorial service for the Bethany Home victims buried in Mount Jerome cemetery the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, said it was time for the Government to "do the decent thing and end this outrage". These sentiments were echoed by many within her party. We have heard Deputy McDonald quoting other Labour Party Deputies in this regard. Now the Minister of State and other Labour Party Ministers who spoke so passionately on behalf of the victims two years ago find themselves in a position to honour what they said to rectify the situation and put an end to the outrage. It is baffling why this issue has not been resolved before now, given some of the comments the Minister of State has made.

It is more than 70 years since the first reports on events at Bethany Home. It appears from the Government amendment that once they attained power, those in government, like those in previous Governments, seem more concerned with refusing to face up to the State's responsibility to survivors and that they are willing to wash their hands. This is despicable - there is no other way of describing it. The actions of this and previous Governments in comparison to the dignity and integrity of the survivors' groups which have campaigned tirelessly on behalf of the victims bring shame on this and previous Governments. It is simply unacceptable by any moral or ethical standard that the women concerned are still being denied any official acknowledgement of their suffering. Just as the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, urged the previous Government, I urge the Government to do everything in its power to end this outrage.

The Government should start by withdrawing its amendment and supporting the motion. We should not miss the opportunity here for all of us, regardless of political affiliation or none, to speak on behalf of these victims with one voice, and I urge the Minister of State to do that.

Deputy Sandra McLellan

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this important issue. The purpose of this motion is to challenge the Government to act on the immediate measures necessary to support the survivors of the Magdalen laundries based on the information already in the public domain. To suggest this information is now virtually beyond dispute is almost an understatement. However, in spite of this the women and girls incarcerated in the Magdalen laundries have yet to receive an apology from the State and official acknowledgement of the injustices that were perpetrated upon them.

In his Fifth Report as Special Rapporteur as Child Protection to the Oireachtas, Mr. Geoffrey Shannon states:

The seriousness of the alleged abuses of the rights of these women and girls cannot be overstated. The allegations of forced labour in the laundries are of particular gravity... The detention and use of women and girls as workers without pay would amount to 'forced labour' under the 1930 Forced Labour Convention of the International Labour Organisation... It appears from the reports provided by these women and girls that their treatment constituted slavery.

He goes on to note that "The prohibition of slavery is a 'peremptory norm' of international law: that is a norm of state practice which is so fundamental that no derogation from it is ever permitted."

One could talk at length about the appalling injustices and crimes perpetuated against these women, the hopelessness of their lives, the cruelty and violence meted out to them on a daily basis and the lack of humanity which permeated virtually every aspect of their lives, but the fact is that the State is already aware of this appalling catalogue of information. This, of course, is to be expected as the State itself was actively involved in the perpetuation and reproduction of the Magdalen institutions. Thus, it is the specific responsibility of the State to make every effort to redress this grave injustice and in so doing, to atone for its past actions. Therefore, I call on the Government to act without further delay to implement the necessary supports that thus far have been denied these women.

A state that continues to deny these women long overdue justice and proper and adequate economic reparation for their forced labour seriously diminishes its own moral and ethical authority in the eyes of all its citizens. Irish society recognised some time ago the grave injustice perpetuated against these women. It is time for the Government to do the same and to act without further delay in the best interests of the women concerned and also in the overall interest of Irish society. It is in the interest of all decent Irish men and women that justice, even at this late stage, is seen to be done and this is in the final analysis the responsibility of the State.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I want to begin by adding to the comments of other Deputies in expressing my personal revulsion and horror at the record of church and State when it comes to the unimaginable cruelty delivered onto thousands of women and girls by these institutions, and I thank Deputy MacDonald and Sinn Féin for bringing forward the motion.

The stories of the barbaric, sadistic abuse handed out to these prisoners of the ten Magdalen asylums have been bravely brought to light by the determination and perseverance of the group committed to obtaining justice, and it is right that we acknowledge its efforts. The first duty we as legislators owe survivors is to acknowledge openly and loudly the full extent of the human suffering that went on in these institutions.

The many survivor accounts reveal this. The basic lack of humanity and compassion evident was made all the more insufferable in that these institutions were set up out of some perverted notion of Christian, Catholic sympathy and charity, that these women must be saved from themselves and from their imagined sins. Beneath that hypocritical piety, there is evidence through the survivor accounts of what can only be described as a barbaric programme of dehumanisation through enforced manual labour, physical abuse and psychological isolation.

It falls on us in this Parliament, both Government and Opposition, to seek whatever means are at our disposal to provide the justice and redress that has remained out of reach of these women and it is good to see that the interdepartmental committee, under Senator McAleese, is advancing this process. We do not know the full extent of the State's culpability - we must wait for the committee to report on that - but we know, through the work of Ms Mary Raftery and others, that several State agencies used the services of the Magdalen laundries. I suspect that we have scarcely begun to get to grips with the State's total responsibility to the survivors, and we have some way to go.

Tonight there will be a "Prime Time" programme dealing with the Magdalen laundries. No doubt that will produce an emotional response and a sense of revulsion, but it is not enough. We must do what is practical. We must do what is demanded by the victims themselves. The pension component of it is incredibly important to these victims to acknowledge what they went through. That particular aspect is something that can be practically done and I want to support that in particular.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this motion to get justice for the Magdalens. The scale of what was carried out in the Magdalen laundries is best summed up in the Justice for Magdalenes submission to the UN Committee Against Torture, which states:

the Magdalene Laundries abuse ... involved the unlawful deprivation of liberty of adult women and girls over extended periods, it involved school-age girls being deprived of an education and it involved both women and girls being subjected to forced labour and servitude by private actors.

It is even more galling when these private actors went under the names of Sisters of Mercy and Sisters of Charity. There certainly was no mercy or charity involved in what the women in the Magdalen laundries went through.

This is an important motion and it is a pity that the Government has seen fit to amend it. The motion has been prepared with the full support of Justice for Magdalenes and it contains three simple recommendations. The first is that a helpline would be established. This is simply because many of the Magdalens would still be suffering and would need ongoing support. A helpline would be an easy point of access for many of those who still have not come forward and campaigned but who would still be suffering in private, and it would be something of which they could avail and use easily.

Access to pensions, another of the recommendations, is vitally important. It would recognise that these women were forced to work and did a service on behalf of the State. It would be simple for the Government to recognise their pension rights and credit them with pension rights for the slave labour that they were forced to carry out.

An apology, redress and restorative justice - all three - are simple demands and something that no Government should have difficulty in dealing with. It would not add significant cost to the State to do this but it would be easy and positive and would go a long way to restoring the Magdalens' faith in the State and in the State's ability to support them.

I also support the calls for the Bethany Home survivors to be included as well and redress to be provided for them because that is another shame on society that has been going on far too long.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Tom Hayes)

I understand the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, is sharing time with Deputies Buttimer and McCarthy.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice and Equality (Deputy Kathleen Lynch)

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after “Dáil Éireann” and substitute the following:

“acknowledges that the untold story of those women who were in Magdalene laundries needs to be listened to with compassion and the facts about the Magdalene laundries need to be established and made public;

is conscious of the need to respect the rights of all concerned;

notes that the Irish Human Rights Commission document entitled ‘Assessment of the Human Rights Issues Arising in relation to the “Magdalene Laundries'" in November 2010 had recommended in the context of a mechanism to investigate matters that:

— ‘such a mechanism should first examine the extent of the State’s involvement in and responsibility for:

— the girls and women entering the laundries;

— the conditions in the laundries;

— the manner in which girls and women left the laundries; and

— end-of-life issues for those who remained’;

welcomes the fact that this Government, shortly after taking office in 2011, decided to establish an interdepartmental committee on Magdalene laundries, chaired by an independent person, to establish the facts of State involvement in Magdalene laundries;

welcomes the fact that the religious congregations who ran the Magdalene laundries, those individuals who were in Magdalene laundries and their advocacy and representative groups have all engaged with the committee;

notes that Senator Martin McAleese, chairman of the committee, has recently advised that:

— the committee has made excellent progress despite the considerable challenges faced;

and

— a significant level of information and documentation has been identified; however, relevant records continue to be identified by Government Departments and State agencies and the committee also continues to receive new submissions from representative and advocacy groups, with a submission in excess of over 100 pages only received from one such group as recently as 15 August 2012;

agrees that it would be wrong for the committee to conclude its work without examining the additional material and welcomes the excellent progress made by the committee and the statement that the committee intends to present a substantial final report as soon as possible and at the latest before the end of this year; and

commits to an open and meaningful response once the interdepartmental committee has reported.”

I am here today on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, to address the motion before the House. The first point I would like to make is that Members should be sensitive to the concerns of those who have been in Magdalen laundries. Both I and the Minister have met with many of the women who have been in Magdalen laundries and I understand Senator McAleese has met all of those who have come forward. All the women we met told their stories with a great deal of dignity and they deserve our respect. None of those we met were unmarried mothers and the branding of Magdalen laundries as a place for "fallen" women is a cause of great distress to them. We have also met with the various representative groups involved and those advocating on behalf of the women. We have listened carefully to all of them and we understand and share their desire, after so many years, to finally address their concerns and bring closure to this difficult chapter of their lives.

I assure the House that the Government is committed to addressing these issues. We began this process by establishing the interdepartmental committee under the independent chairmanship of Senator Martin McAleese and we are fully committed to addressing these issues once the final report is received. At all times, we have been conscious of the need to progress these matters as quickly as possible. I have a lot of sympathy for the position of those who ended up in Magdalen laundries. I have long held this view and I know many of the women involved and what it meant for them. They existed in an era where Irish society could be harsh and even hostile to those less fortunate. It goes without saying, as I am sure many in this House will agree, that life in an institution can be a very poor substitute for the emotional and other support that is normally found in a family setting.

Turning to the Government amendment, the main point behind the amendment is that it is premature to have this debate without the benefit of Senator McAleese's report and the factual information it will bring. The Magdalen institutions that were still in operation when this State came into existence were all run by congregations of nuns. Like convents, they operated behind walls and closed doors, isolated from the mainstream of the community, and their story has not been told. The report of the interdepartmental committee will hopefully give us the first comprehensive, objective insight into that world. I do not doubt the sincerity of the women whom I have met and one must have sympathy with them for the hardships they faced and endured. Anyone who has read the Ryan report and its account of the industrial school system that operated in this State must be mindful of the possibility of abuses in other institutions run by religious orders. However, we cannot leap to conclusions without following fair procedures and trying in so far as we can to establish the facts.

As far as I am aware, allegations of abuse in Magdalen laundries has never been the subject of scrutiny by the courts, a commission of investigation or tribunal of inquiry, so the facts remain undetermined. I presume that is one of the reasons that led in June 2010 to the Justice for Magdalenes group contacting the Irish Human Rights Commission and requesting it to conduct an inquiry into the treatment of women and girls who resided in Magdalen laundries. The Irish Human Rights Commission decided not to conduct an inquiry. However, in its assessment published in November 2010, it considered that the issues raised warranted a statutory investigation. It recommended a two-stage approach. The first stage was to examine the extent of the State's involvement in and responsibility for what happened in the Magdalen laundries. Then, if State involvement and responsibility were established, a larger scale review of what occurred should take place and in appropriate cases redress should be granted where warranted. The previous Government did not take any action but within a month of taking office, this Government moved to set up the interdepartmental committee under the impeccable, independent chairmanship of Senator Martin McAleese.

Senator McAleese was appointed to the chairmanship of the committee so as to ensure there would be full confidence in the workings of the committee and no legitimate issue could arise with regard to the committee properly fulfilling its mandate. Both the Minister, Deputy Shatter, and the Government are very grateful to Senator McAleese for undertaking this important task and for the commitment he has shown to it. From conversation with him, I know his job has not been easy. Membership of the committee is drawn from representatives of six Departments: Justice and Equality; Health; the Environment, Community and Local Government; Education and Skills; Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation; and Children and Youth Affairs. Relevant Departments and State offices not represented on the committee have also been contacted with a view to checks being conducted on their records.

The committee was set up by the Government to establish the facts of State involvement with the Magdalen laundries, to clarify any State interaction and to produce a narrative detailing such interaction. It effectively is carrying out the first examination as recommended by the commission. It was deliberately decided not to start with a statutory inquiry. Our experience of statutory inquiries is that they are slow and expensive and the Government was conscious that many of the women concerned are elderly. It was confident that a non-statutory examination would be much quicker, less costly and equally, if not more, effective. The indications from Senator McAleese are that he expects to be in a position to submit a substantial final report in a matter of months, certainly before the end of the year. This will serve to confirm that the Government was right in taking this approach.

My understanding is that the religious congregations are giving their full co-operation. This is on a voluntary basis and has not given rise to the type of adversarial approach that often arises in statutory inquiries. I am glad to see that both the original motion and the Government amendment give due recognition to this co-operation. The House will know that the committee undertook to produce an interim report within three months of its establishment and that report was published within that timeframe, in October 2011. That report acknowledged the co-operation the committee was receiving from Departments, the religious orders and representative groups of women formerly resident in the laundries.

The committee also reported that extensive searches of all State records had commenced, with results being reported on a regular basis. While the interim progress report of the committee expressed the hope and intention that the committee could conclude its work by mid-2012, it pointed out that: "If the volume of records uncovered or available resources, including personnel, vary substantially from those currently anticipated, it may be necessary to adjust this intended time-line." I understand a significant level of information and documentation has already been identified by the committee and drafting of the final report has begun. However, relevant records continue to be identified and the committee also continues to receive new submissions from representative and advocacy groups. Indeed, a submission in excess of 100 pages was only recently received from one such group, on 15 August 2012. I am firmly of the view that the committee cannot be criticised for taking the time necessary to consider such material or any material which may of course have the potential to enhance the fact finding process and the eventual outcome of the committee's work.

Senator McAleese has advised that the committee intends to produce its final report as soon as possible, but at the latest before the end of the year. He has explained that information is still being identified which has the capacity to add to the overall outcome of the committee's work in a meaningful way. The committee feels that it would be improper to conclude without examining this additional information. The Minister and I have long believed that the issues raised by or on behalf of the women and girls who were resident in the Magdalen laundries must be addressed. We have great sympathy for these women and want to help in bringing some closure for the individuals concerned. The Government has put a process in place. All involved - the various Departments and agencies, the religious congregations who ran these institutions and the representative and advocacy groups of the women who formerly resided there - are co-operating with the process and we must now see it through. All the indications are that the report of the interdepartmental committee will put us in a position to have a meaningful debate on the issues raised by the different groups representing those who have been in Magdalen laundries and provide a proper response. The House is in full agreement on this issue.

Both the original motion and the Government amendment welcome the establishment of the committee and commit to an open and meaningful response to all the issues when the report is received. Indeed, the only difference is that the Government is not going to pre-empt the report of the committee by either making decisions or assertions. We have been told that we will have the report as soon as possible, and certainly before the end of year, which is only a matter of months. The only reasonable course of action now is to await the report. We will be better informed, the report will be published, and we will have a clearer understanding of the facts involved. In fairness to everyone, I believe we will be better placed then to respond fully to the issues and for that reason I commend the Government amendment to the House.

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

I agree with Deputy McDonald that the women are both victims and survivors. They deserve the support of this House in their search for justice. I applaud their courage. Their support is paramount. It is safe to say there is broad agreement on the need to fully investigate the involvement of the State in the dreadful experiences of these women, who were shunned and separated from society. It is horrifying to contemplate the brutality that existed in these places, which lasted for the first 84 years of our State. Given that the last of the Magdalen laundries closed in 1996, we should realise that we are not just talking about a historic legacy. We are dealing with something that is a recent memory and a recent scar, unfortunately, for the many women who endured appalling treatment in these institutions.

I applaud the speech the Minister of State made tonight. For decades, these women were made to stand apart from society. They were removed from their families, their communities and their country. They deserve better. As a State, Ireland should be deeply ashamed of this legacy. As parliamentarians, we should work to ensure it never happens again. As a society and as a State, we have a duty to protect all our citizens, particularly those who are most vulnerable. The women who occupied the Magdalen laundries were not afforded this protection. Instead, they were subjected to physical abuse, emotional abuse and ill treatment. Their experiences have been described as "imprisonment" and as "slavery". When one reads about their experiences and listens to these women, one understands why these terms appropriately describe what happened.

The Government's decision to establish an interdepartmental group, chaired by Senator McAleese, was a welcome one. This step signalled the beginning of our State taking responsibility for its action and its inaction. I am pleased that a quasi-legal approach was not taken. It is important for the committee's work to conclude and for its report to be compiled quickly. The Minister of State mentioned that the deadline for the publication of the report, which was initially supposed to take place in the middle of this year, was extended after Senator McAleese's group indicated that it needed more time. It behoves us to give more time to the group. We should bear in mind that these women are getting older. There has been huge anguish in their lives and they have been affected profoundly. Nevertheless, it is important for additional time to be made available to the group to ensure it can draw up a comprehensive appraisal of the involvement of the State. If that facilitates the compilation of a report that accurately reflects and acknowledges the involvement of the State, it will be a small and significant step towards due reparation for these women. That is very important.

I am aware of the desire of the Minister of State and the Government to address this issue properly. Following the publication of the report of the United Nations Committee against Torture, prompt action was taken to establish an independent and thorough investigation. Now that delays in the process have become evident, there is a need to consider whether the group requires additional resources. Government action should be taken to ensure there are no further delays. There should be consultation to see if the Government can act to expedite the delivery of this report in the interests of all involved.

There is an unwanted and undesirable symmetry to the issues that are being debated in this House tonight. The Second Stage debate on legislation providing for a referendum on children's rights, which stems from the devastating failures of church and State, was commenced earlier this evening. This motion has been tabled to highlight the failure of the same institutions to deal compassionately with women who had children outside marriage or were otherwise treated wrongly. As I have said, their failure to compassionately protect children has necessitated a referendum on children's rights. Regrettably, the State that we as legislators work to change has failed the women of the Magdalen laundries. Regardless of party politics, we must take collective action to ensure they receive redress. Only when the involvement of the State has been fully catalogued will it be an appropriate time for a comprehensive apology to be made in the full knowledge of the facts. I hope this occurs quickly. These women deserve nothing less from the State.

Deputy Michael McCarthy

The Justice from Magdalenes survivors advocacy group has asked for a dignified debate on this motion to take place in the Chamber this evening and tomorrow evening. It is no less that we can do for these remarkable individuals who have always shown enormous grace and dignity in their dealings with this issue. They have stayed with it and made progress with it over the years. Without doubt, the era under discussion is one of the most shameful and distressing periods in our country's short history. It defies belief. It must be extremely upsetting for the people concerned and their families to think of the abuse, torture, neglect and societal stigma that were endured by those who were pushed away from the norms of society. These places were not intended to be used as prisons. No court orders were ever secured. These people were there against their will. They were put there to be kept out of the way. It further compounds our sense of disbelief to think that the people behind this abuse acted in the names of God, Jesus Christ and clerics of various descriptions.

As I said in the Seanad previously, this is our own holocaust. What was inflicted on these people was atrocious. There is no other way of describing it. As Deputy Buttimer pointed out, the last laundry closed in 1996, which is not that long ago. There will be a great deal of debate on the children's rights referendum in this Chamber and outside it in the weeks to come. In recent weeks, a senior cleric in Galway had the temerity to say that he had thought paedophilia was a step of friendship gone too far. That is the context in which we should reflect on the shameful behaviour of those who occupied positions of trust and respect in Irish society. Those who hid behind religion mocked it when they inflicted this kind of misery on people. It is shameful. I sincerely hope these people, many of whom are still around, hang their heads in shame at the thought that they went through this life inflicting such misery on others and engaging in such rank hypocrisy. It is disgraceful.

Many of the victims, or survivors as they have correctly been termed during this debate, never again saw their own families after they were incarcerated and, in effect, taken for slave labour purposes. They were worked to the bone for 10 hours a day, six days a week. They were completely cut off from what was happening outside these institutions. The initial trauma of being brought from one's community and one's home into these places must have been compounded by being used as slave labour. It makes the blood boil to think that capitalists who hid behind the name of religion profited from this free labour. The survivors are no longer physically incarcerated in these institutions but many of them have continued to feel forgotten and abandoned in the past and in the present. The lack of political conviction displayed by successive Administrations has compounded that sense of stigma and exploitation.

As we try to bring an element of dignity to this debate, we must acknowledge that the Minister, Deputy Shatter, established the interdepartmental group within three weeks of the formation of this Government. The Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, worked like a Trojan on this issue in opposition and is continuing to do so in government. I believe that deserves to be acknowledged by those who tabled the motion this evening. I hope the fine and eloquent contribution made by the Minister of State in explaining the amendment she has moved will not be lost on them. I am trying to be as restrained as I can when I say I sincerely hope that those who tabled this motion will always practice what they preach when it comes to the misery that has been inflicted on these people and on people in other sectors of this country in recent years.

I would like to quote from one of the victims who spoke out about her experience in a Magdalen Laundry:

Those places were the Irish gulags for women. When you went inside their doors you left behind your dignity, identity and humanity. We were locked up, had no outside contacts and got no wages, although we worked 10 hours a day, six days a week, 52 weeks a year. What else is that but slavery? And to think that they were doing all this in the name of a loving God.

A report on the Magdalen laundries that was published by the Irish Human Rights Council approximately two years ago provided further evidence of State complicity in the grave injustices that were visited upon the victims. It stated:

The treatment of these women and girls by the Religious Orders appears to have been harsh. They were reputedly forced to work long hours. Their names were often changed to a religious name, they were isolated from society and the girls were allegedly denied educational opportunities. The then Minister for Education and Science told the Oireachtas in 2001 that this treatment was abuse, that it involved an appalling breach of trust and that the victims suffered and continued to suffer.

Within a few short months this Government created the interdepartmental committee, independently chaired by Senator McAleese, and the advocacy group has recognised the important work Senator McAleese has carried out in this area. For reasons outlined by the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, and given the volume of work the committee has had to deal with, Senator McAleese has, naturally enough, sought an extension of time to deal with it.

Far from being a fig leaf, this is a genuine and constructive attempt by this Administration to deal with the appalling injustices in regard to the Magdalen laundries. I have no doubt that in the fullness of time these women will get the justice they deserve. I hope we can return to this issue in time and acknowledge that on the floor of this House.

Deputy Niall Collins

I wish to share time with Deputy Dara Calleary.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Tom Hayes)

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Niall Collins

I am glad to have the opportunity to speak about the Magdalen laundries. While I am new to the justice portfolio, the groups representing women who were residents in these institutions had constant contact with my predecessor, Deputy Dara Calleary, who kept our party briefed on their ongoing issues. At the outset, l want to put on record my own opinion and that of Fianna Fáil that it was totally and utterly unacceptable that women were sent to Magdalen laundries and kept there against their will.

I am not here to make political points; nor should any Member of this House when speaking about this sensitive, hurtful and complex part of Ireland's history. There should be an all-party approach to reaching a satisfactory solution, if at all possible.

I am conscious also that we all use the term "Magdalen laundries" but that they were known by a variety of terms, including "asylums", "refuges" and "homes". The women who resided and worked in the institutions were referred to as "penitents" or "inmates", and latterly as "girls" and "women". In my speech, I will be referring to them as "residents" even though the Justice for Magdalenes submission to the interdepartmental committee chaired by Senator McAleese has numerous contributions from residents who said they were held against their will and were never let out to visit their families or even to go into town to meet friends or go for a walk. There were women who said they were held in locked dormitories, with bars on the windows and with high walls surrounding the premises so the outside world was invisible. This, according to many residents, was particularly bad before the 1970s. According to one survivor, they seemed "to wake up in the 70's and realise that people could not be treated in that way anymore".

The Justice for Magdalenes submission, which is very detailed, refers to the legislation that covered these institutions, which applied in Ireland from the beginning of the last century. The Factory and Workshop Act 1907 entered into force on 1 January 1908 and applied to the whole of what was then the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. This Act had provisions covering laundries as a trade, hours of work and also "any premises forming part of an institution carried on for charitable or reformatory purposes". Other legislation offering "protection to workers" was the 1901 Factory and Workshop Act, which, according to Justice for Magdalenes, should be considered by the interdepartmental committee. It included a section which outlines why any room a person is in "must not be locked or bolted or fastened in such a manner that they cannot be easily and immediately opened from the inside". The Justice for Magdalenes submission gives many solid examples of sections of legislation from 1901 onwards, and some before, which, on the face of it, should have given some protection to the residents if it had been applied. However, there was little or no inspection and Justice for Magdalenes believes it was clear that, where the institutions were run by religious orders, "they fought tooth and nail to avoid inspection". Even when letters of complaint were submitted, they were quickly dismissed.

The redacted parts of the Justice for Magdalenes report contains even more harrowing evidence but, even as it stands, the report gives a picture of society at the time, particularly the social stigma that applied to women who became pregnant outside of marriage. There is no doubt this stigma was due to what the Catholic Church predominantly dictated at the time and how society responded to this. It is important that this is all put into context and, while I am obviously not condoning what happened, context is crucial. Institutions such as these existed not only in Ireland; as confirmed in the Justice for Magdalenes report, there is also reference to such institutions run by religious orders in France and the UK and there are references to debates in the House of Commons in the 1920s regarding how inspections should be strengthened.

The Justice for Magdalenes report described how, in 1928, after Irish Independence, a Commission on the Relief of the Sick and Destitute Poor was set up, which outlined how a woman should be "incarcerated" for one year if pregnant outside marriage with her first child or for two years if it was her second pregnancy, and stated that the health board had the power to "retain for such period as they think fit, having considered the recommendation of the Superior or Matron of the Home". It is stated the object was to "regulate, control [or] segregate those who have become sources of evil, danger, and expense to the community".

Obviously, we are debating this in the Dáil in 2012. What we need to do is to determine what is best for the residents who have survived these institutions and what can be done for them to ease their pain, which is no doubt both physical and psychological. The State must do all it can to co-operate as fully as possible in making notes, referrals and any other information available to the interdepartmental committee chaired by Senator McAleese. The religious orders and the Church also need to co-operate fully, and I welcome the announcement in July last by Archbishop Diarmuid Martin, who offered full and open access to the Dublin diocesan archives.

Everyone in Irish society needs to learn lessons from the Ryan report and other reports that exposed horrific stories from our past. The more open and honest the parties can be at every stage, the more it will enable a satisfactory solution. I see from the interim report that Senator McAleese has confirmed that full co-operation is being given, which is to be welcomed. However, the group is looking at ten institutions in operation since 1922 and this involves four religious orders. The work has been delayed slightly to allow all submissions to be examined, which is understandable given the extent of the task and given that records made before computerisation can be hard to find. There has been a call to include other institutions such as Bethany Home, and perhaps the Government could examine this request. Contact has been made by the committee with Departments, agencies, the Garda, the courts, the local authorities, the HSE, the LRC, the National Library and the National Archives, and the Irish Human Rights Commission has also made presentations to the committee.

When this report is finalised, it will be another step towards redress. I believe there should be a full debate in this House when the report is finalised and that there will be an all-party and constructive approach to redress.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I thank Deputy Collins for sharing time. There is an irony, as a number of Government speakers have noted, in the fact that we are debating this in a week when the entire machinery of the Oireachtas is being mobilised to ensure we get the necessary legislation passed for the referendum on children's rights, a referendum which is a direct consequence of many of the reports which are being cited here today and which dealt with acts that happened over many decades in this country's recent history.

It would be preferable if the House did not have to divide on this issue tomorrow. I again appeal to the Minister to see whether there can be any interaction with the Office of the Attorney General before 9 p.m. tomorrow to ensure an agreed wording can be drawn up.

The Justice for Magdalenes report summarises in horrific detail the reality for many of these women and their families - not just the families of the time but of today.

It outlines the extent of the State's involvement in the Magdalen laundries. There was direct State financial support through the payment of capitation grants, while indirect financial support was provided through other means. The laundries were used for incarceration and there was a failure on the part of the State to insist that the laundries complied with health and safety legislation, as referred to by Deputy Collins. The State also failed to ensure that the children were educated, that tax and social welfare payments were collected from the laundries or that death certificates were issued by the laundries. There are unmarked graves in this city and elsewhere on this island and as a direct consequence of that, memories have been lost.

The point made by many Deputies is that this is not an historic event. This still goes on. Tonight there are people such as Maisie, who reports that she still suffers from nightmares 50 years later. In her dreams, she is locked in and cannot get out. She says that she cannot believe it still haunts her at her age, but "...it never leaves you...". Attracta says she feels very bitter and that Ireland let her down. Her husband says that she still cries at night and wakes up crying and that it has affected all of her life.

There was no way out. When people tried to escape, as they did, they were caught by gardaí. One of the generous aspects of the Justice for Magdalenes submission is that they do not hold individual gardaí accountable. They want the force to respond. The forces of the State were mobilised to bring these people back into their prisons, which they are still in metaphorically tonight.

I thank Deputy McDonald for giving us the opportunity to discuss this matter. Deputy O'Sullivan has just joined us and I know that both Deputies have been very involved in this issue. I have absolutely no doubt that Senator Martin McAleese is giving this his full commitment. He was an inspired choice to lead this inquiry. I also have no doubt of the commitment of those in government who are working on this issue. However, I doubt the institutions of the State. When I hear of cross-departmental committees, I get worried because immediately a defensive mechanism which is in-built in the institutions of the State kicks in. There is some sort of innate inability to acknowledge our role in this. We cannot acknowledge our debt to these people. We cannot admit or contemplate the fact that these women and their families are still living that nightmare. The motion before us puts the machinery of the State on notice that this Oireachtas will not waver. This Oireachtas has a moral mandate to deliver to these people and to account for the mistakes of previous Oireachtais and the machinery of government.

In an article in The Irish Times today, Fintan O'Toole asks, "How long must they wait before the stain of the laundries is washed clean?". This Oireachtas is putting the machinery of government on notice that we intend to do that. I know of the personal commitment of some of the Deputies on the other side of the House but we do not have a lot of time for a meaningful debate and response. Debate takes time and these women are owed their cleanliness moment and their dignity. I ask the Minister to ensure that when the report is published it is not passed off to some other interdepartmental committee for a report or response. I urge her to act on it so the 31st Dáil can say it gave these women back their dignity.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

First, I acknowledge the work of Sinn Féin and Deputy McDonald, in particular, in bringing this debate to the Dáil and their efforts to secure cross-party and Independent support for this motion. The ladies deserve a dignified debate in this House. They were deprived of dignity in the laundries and some of them were deprived of it after they left. I also wish to acknowledge the work of the committee chaired by Senator McAleese and the work of Ms Nuala Ní Mhuircheartaigh, as well as the co-operation they received from various Departments and the religious orders. It is a tribute to the skills of the committee and Senator McAleese that all of that support and encouragement was received. However, I am disappointed by the delay in the completion of the report. Even more disappointing is the fact the report will not make any recommendations, which could result in further delays. That is no longer acceptable.

Above all, I wish to acknowledge the work of the Justice for Magdalenes group. Without them this is an episode in our history that people would have been delighted just to forget about and brush under the carpet. Were it not for their work, the issue would not be receiving the attention it is now getting. We have learned of the systematic abuse of people in industrial schools, the Magdalen laundries, the Bethany Home and in various sports organisations. These are very dark moments in our history but they do not belong to the past. They are still very much in the present because those people have to live with the scars of that abuse and the scars do not go away.

The ladies are asking for an apology and redress. Many of the women are living in very difficult circumstances. They are generally quite elderly so time is of the essence. It is important that more women do not die without an apology and redress. When I put a priority question to the Minister, he was quite horrified at my suggestion that delaying tactics were being employed but people cannot be blamed for thinking that.

The response to most of the questions posed by Members on this issue is that the Department wants to establish the facts fully. We know what Justice for Magdalenes has submitted regarding State involvement with the Magdalen laundries. Their submission document contained 12 files of supporting material and two files of survivor testimony, totalling 795 pages. They also submitted over 3,700 pages of archival and logistical documentation. These documents outlined what happened to these young girls and women. They were deprived of their liberty, physically and sexually abused, forced into slave labour, deprived of medical treatment, neglected and humiliated. They endured enormous fear, as well as the loss of their identity. One relative who visited a laundry described it as a "Gulag-style incarceration facility".

There is clear evidence that the State's judicial system routinely referred people to the Magdalen laundries. There was evidence of transfer from the industrial schools and from the mother and baby homes, which received State and local government funding. An aspect of this that I find particularly horrific is the number of young people who were put into the laundries by their families and simply left there, not to mention the State's failure to supervise this.

The State apologised to the survivors of the industrial schools in May 1999, before carrying out the relevant inquiry and before establishing the redress scheme. A further apology was issued in 2009. In that context, I ask, as an interim measure, for a gesture of goodwill and an acknowledgement of what went on, that the apology could come sooner rather than later. I discovered in the Justice for Magdalene's documentation that the first parliamentary question on the matter was asked in 1938.

In conclusion, this time last year I went to a play at the Dublin Fringe Festival called "Laundry" by Louise Lowe, whose family is from the north inner city. The play was based in the convent that was used as a Magdalen laundry in Sean McDermott Street and was like a virtual reality tour through the various rooms. I was totally traumatised by the experience, even though I was only there for about an hour and a half. It was a very visual representation of what those women went through. During the play, one of the characters said "Will you tell somebody?" and I reacted, as an audience member, and said "Who will I tell?". Thinking about it afterwards I wondered who I would have told because nobody wanted to listen. Nobody in authority wanted to know what was going on. Finally, enough is enough for those ladies.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I welcome the Minister of State and thank Deputy O'Sullivan for sharing time. I compliment Deputy McDonald and the group that came together to propose this motion, to which I was glad to put my name. This is a terribly important issue. Over 30,000 young people were stripped of their dignity and robbed of a happy and carefree childhood. This certainly deserves the utmost respect from the Government. The issue has been neglected for too long. Redress is required. Unfortunately, many fine, respectable people have gone to their graves without an apology or any form of redress.

This is not about people seeking compensation. What they are seeking is acknowledgement. Redress is required for people who are still alive. It is sinful that so many have gone to their eternal reward without getting so much as a proper or acceptable apology. People only live for so long. It is awful to think of lovely young girls incarcerated in such institutions as the laundries who were mistreated and robbed of the happy days and nights they should have had. That is sad and an indictment of society at the time. It shows the lack of tolerance and humanity that existed at the time that beautiful, young people were mistreated in such a way. It was an awful period. It should never have been allowed to happen but it is the responsibility of each one of us elected to the Dáil to ensure we put forward our case and that the Government acts. I do not refer to the current Government specifically because there has been an unwillingness to deal adequately with the matter for many years. The State must live up to its responsibility. I compliment the Justice for Magdalenes group, which has done tremendous work, as have many other people in the past. It is time those in government ensure redress is provided and there is a proper apology.

I wish Senator Martin McAleese every success. He is a deeply committed individual whom I know is going about his job in a meticulous and hard-working fashion. We all acknowledge that. A stigma was put on those fine young people and the experience they went through was horrendous. Many of those affected are still alive and we must do everything we can to try to make up for the wrong that was perpetrated on them.

Unfortunately, there have been delays. I am not afraid to say and as has been stated that stalling tactics have been employed. When it comes to an issue such as this, sometimes the initial reaction of those in positions of responsibility is to stall in order to buy time. Unfortunately, time is running out for many and has run out for others who suffered in the past. I hope that once and for all proper justice will be done and that it will be seen to be done. It has been suggested that rather than taking different sides, we should all speak with the one voice on the issue. We should all sing from the same hymn sheet and ensure redress is provided.

I compliment and thank all of the speakers who have spoken on this important motion. I thank Deputy Mary Lou McDonald for introducing the Private Members' motion. Every week various important issues are raised on the floor of the House during Private Members' time. This is an important issue and must be given the utmost respect, which is the case. I am pleased to be present to support the motion.

Debate adjourned.