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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 6 Mar 2013

Vol. 795 No. 2

Health Service Executive (Governance) Bill 2012 [Seanad]: Second Stage (Resumed)

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The Title of the Bill is the Health Service Executive (Governance) Bill but it should really be titled the Health Service Executive (partial governance) Bill because it deals predominantly with new directorates rather than a reform of a whole governance approach to the HSE.

The big myth about the HSE when it was established was that it would replace the old health board system. In fact, what occurred was that public representatives were removed from the boards and a new administrative tier was placed above what was a dysfunctional health board system, which was really a product of the 19th century poor law system. The top-down system remained in place but there was a need for the whole organisation to be reformed. Despite good people working in it, the structure and culture ended up being a failure. It is beyond question that there were abuses by public representatives on the boards. While I do not stand over that, they did, however, perform an oversight role which was lost when they were removed and that has never been properly replaced.

The HSE, instead of simplifying things, introduced a new level of bureaucracy that has proven to be extremely difficult to interact with for the citizen, which feeds into clientelism. An organisation cannot have a clientelist approach unless its systems of governance are inaccessible to the public, meaning that people have to go through a middle man or woman. That is one of the dysfunctional things about Irish politics.

A good citizen interface for any organisation is essential in any reform process and this must be underpinned by the services being available. A website is now the shop window for any service and I challenge anyone to make sense of the HSE's website. A website is a mirror image of the organisation it represents. The processes, culture and services can all be seen and to me it looks like chaos. It looks like an organisation that is inwardly focused and process driven. It is a tall order to expect that the changes proposed in this legislation, namely to replace the board with a new directorate, can deliver the kind of change that is needed. This was the approach that was taken with local government, where directors of service were introduced but it did not change the culture because what was underpinning it was not changed. Much more substantial reform is required. I accept that this might be done on an incremental basis but we need to see what is the overall blueprint. The people who work within the system and the citizens have a right to expect that.

The HSE was also a very useful vehicle for Ministers in the past in terms of blaming the organisation rather than accepting responsibility for failings. The HSE served as a kind of teflon for the Minister for Health. Parliamentary questions often took a ridiculously long time to answer and there is still a difficulty with accountability. Responses from the HSE take longer than other parliamentary replies. Another difficulty is that several Deputies are often asking the same question of the HSE. There is duplication by virtue of the fact that one has to look in another location to determine what questions have been asked previously by others. There is room for efficiency in this area, in terms of improving accountability and taking a simpler approach to finding out what is happening.

The provisions of this Bill are intended to change all that but it will require a change in both structure and the organisational culture to achieve this. The existing accountability arrangements under the Health Act 2004 are retained and they relate to service plans and annual reports but in many cases these are deficient. There is no point in having service plans if there are no services available and I wish to cite a number of examples in this regard. People often criticise politicians for spending time in their constituencies once or twice a week and accuse us of fixing potholes. I wish it was only potholes that we were attending to but the issues are much more complex. Deputies can see the failures in the system. I was approached by a family with a 12 year old child who was ready to begin secondary school. She has been on the waiting list for a tonsillectomy for the last two and a half years. She is missing school regularly and on antibiotics frequently, which is not the kind of case management one would want. She is not well and is losing weight. She has been waiting for an appointment in Tallaght hospital for over two years and her parents have no private health insurance. They asked if she could be moved to the waiting list for another hospital because if she was on the list for the actual procedure, rather than for just an appointment, she might be able to get treatment under the National Treatment Purchase Fund. This is the reply her parents received from Crumlin hospital: "Thank you for your referral to the ENT department. Currently the outpatient waiting time is two years for a routine ENT appointment". The hospital refused her referral. We are busy talking about building a children's hospital, which is desperately needed, but while we are waiting for that, we are seeing the failures. That child is being failed. There is no point in having service plans unless there are services behind them. We need real reform that will impact on people.

Access to services can often depend on one's address, which is a lottery I frequently come across. In many cases, this affects children who need essential services such as occupational therapy. Again, I have one of many examples of this. The HSE informed me that the paediatric occupational therapy service was developed in Kildare, west Wicklow in 2009. It added that the resources have been depleted in recent years due to resignations and it has not been possible to replace the staff due to the moratorium on recruitment. This is penny rich and pound foolish because, in many cases, children will miss out on the developmental opportunities provided by occupational therapy and we will pick up the tab later by way of disability payments and so forth. This is stupid. Service availability is very much dependent on where one is in the country and for children living in a different part of the country, this is not a problem. I do not see how a new directorship will make a difference in this regard. Will people be moved from Cork to Louth or from Galway to Kildare? We need a whole-of-organisation approach to understand where people are, where the gaps are and how we can plug those gaps.

I have another example of an eight year old who is falling through the cracks. He struggles to dress himself, cannot hold a knife and fork and needs occupational therapy but he cannot even be put on the list. He was diagnosed by the Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service, CAMHS, with Asperger's syndrome and attention deficit disorder but his parents were told that he would not be seen because there was no list for him to be put on. The CAMHS does not have an occupational therapist, even if he was to be referred back to it and community treatment is not an option any longer. This may well be a local play-out of this problem but it is impacting negatively on the child. A new directorship and service plans will not resolve this issue if the people are not in place and I cannot emphasise this strongly enough.

I have another example of a child who has a specific learning and language difficulty. Speech and language therapy will not be provided in the school in Tallaght that specialises in treating the small number of children who have this disorder. He is emotionally impacted by this but is also impacted badly in terms of his educational prospects. When the particular service is provided, a child is taken out and given intensive occupational therapy for two years and then returns to mainstream school. The experience of children who have gone through that route is very good. In my view not having those services in place is criminal. I have come across several children who need behavioural therapies. I have had parents tell me that their big fear is that if their children do not receive the necessary treatment, they will end up in prison. They are displaying violent tendencies at primary school. They clearly have some difficulties and need behavioural therapies to modify their behaviour. Their parents have said to me, bluntly that their child will end up in prison. We talk about the past, about failures and the kind of Ireland we used to live in but this is the Ireland of now. These are people I am coming across regularly and I do not suppose that Kildare is different to other parts of the country. It may well be that there is a more deficient service in my area by virtue of the fact that the population increased rapidly in a very short space of time and the services did not keep pace with that. We are now struggling with that and people are being lost in the system.

Another issue of major concern, which is not being provided for, is the fact that we have younger cohort of people working in our public services. Older people have tended to be the ones who have opted out when retirement packages were put in place. Approximately 50% of these younger people are women as more women need to work these days because of large mortgages and so forth but no cover is being given for maternity leave.

We cannot be serious about providing a service unless we cover something like maternity leave, as that is where gaps occur. The coverage of maternity leave is essential.

A huge number of good people are employed in the HSE and most of the workers are not responsible for the structure of the organisation. I am sure these people are frustrated by the service within which they work but any change must occur with their co-operation. I am concerned about the top-down approach. We are told new directors will have a critical role to play and I hope that ends up as the case. It is not just a question of hiring good people to fill those directorates, and the process must be underpinned by values and objectives.

As an example, the robotic approach to the home help system in recent months flies in the face of the objective of trying to keep people living independently within their own homes for as long as possible. It cannot purely be about financial outcomes and I am concerned about the market and management language being used. People who use the health services are not customers but they are citizens who pay their taxes if they are lucky enough to be able to do so. They have an entitlement to a service when it is required. We should stop the management speak. A 12-year-old waiting for an emergency medical procedure is not a customer but a citizen of the country who is entitled to be cared for. Citizens must be put at the heart of redesigning the process, as the outcomes are for these people.

Nevertheless, it is essential that we get best value from the limited funds available and it is clear from the leaked reports in recent years that internal audits are extremely lax when it comes to oversight of spending by the HSE. This is unacceptable and it must change because we cannot afford waste. What is proposed is limited and there is a need to see the shape of the organisation that will run our health services. This piecemeal approach is not convincing.

There was a very useful paper delivered some years ago at the MacGill summer school, with Mr. Eddie Molloy talking about Ireland's sixth crisis involving a severe implementation of deficit disorder. For those of us who want to see significant or radical reform in many of our institutions, we can identify with the idea. Mr. Molloy indicates that the main carriers of the disorder are organised groups with strong bargaining power. He includes in this senior public servants, executives, medical consultants and board members who have reached the top of their respective organisations. They are a good cultural fit for the board and unlikely to question the prevailing culture, amounting to a safe pair of hands, with a core value of loyalty to a group or circle, golden or otherwise.

Mr. Molloy argues that we need to strengthen the strategic centre and that we need to establish the discipline of real, edgy, transparent strategic management. Public agencies publish strategic plans approximately every three years but the track record in implementation is poor; we know this because they are all on shelves. Mr. Molloy argues that there is a belief that a job is done once a report is published and people can read it but there is no effective system of strategic review and transparent reporting. He also seeks the formation of senior public servants, which means they should not merely be trained in administrative and sector-specific skills and there should be inculcation of a value system. He identifies institutional culture as the root cause of failure and the biggest obstacle to reform, highlighting several concrete steps that can be taken, including boards and senior executive teams giving quality time on a regular basis to engaging with an organisation's values and culture. A cultural audit must be an integral element of strategic planning, with a section of culture a requirement in all annual reports.

Culture can be very difficult to change in an organisation but if it is not on the agenda, there is no chance of changing it. Mr. Molloy also speaks about initiating a major multi-year programme to reappropriate and breathe life into the foundational values of the public service. We must be deliberate in the kind of change being sought. These are elements in a longer paper that has a wider scope but it is nonetheless relevant to this proposal.

We have an old poor law model that we are trying to tweak, which is not good enough. What is beneath the directorships requires radical reform. The structure and culture of the executive are in need of reform, with a whole-of-organisation reform required. The top-down model was an intended change in the HSE and we can see that it did not work. I do not understand why it continues to be the favoured approach when a whole-of-organisation approach is required. It does not matter how good this organisational vehicle becomes if we do not have people with the right skills in the right places to deliver services to the public. It does not matter how good the management system is in that case and there are serious deficiencies that will cost both money and opportunities. These must be addressed and to give the impression that this is a big reform, with addressing such issues, will be seen as a failure for people who present with the kind of examples I used. I wish these were the only examples I could use but unfortunately every one of us has a group of people seeing deficiencies in service delivery. I am able to put my hands on just a few in order to give an example.

I am not opposed to the Bill but it is very limited in what is being done. We need to see urgently what will be the overall shape of the HSE in future.

I welcome this opportunity to speak on the Bill. This legislation provides for three elements, the first of which is the abolition of the board structure of the HSE and for a directorate to be the new governing body for the HSE in place of the board, headed by a director general. The second element is further accountability arrangements for the HSE, with the third element being related matters, including a number of technical amendments to take account of the replacement of the board structure by the directorate structure.

The HSE was established in 2005. It is a large organisation providing a broad range of services which are essential to the individuals who are in receipt of them. The programme for Government commits to the abolition of the HSE but the abolition, as the Minister said in his opening statement on Second Stage, will require careful planning, sequencing and complex further legislation. This Bill is an important step on the road to replacing the HSE with a new health governance structure that places the patient at the centre.

When the HSE was set-up by Fianna Fáil it was believed that a centralised health service would perform much better than the previous health board structure. The health boards were much criticised but gave public representatives a meaningful role in holding the health authorities to account. We currently have health regional fora for elected members, which were effectively established as an afterthought. In recent times, fora members have complained about ineffectiveness and the lack of accountability from the HSE. One of the main areas of concern for the public is the amount of administrators within the HSE structure.

The HSE created these positions following the amalgamation of the health boards. Effectively, an increasing number of management positions were created on the establishment of the HSE to the detriment of front-line staff, such as nurses and doctors, and ultimately to the detriment of patients.

The Government has a mandate to reform and reorganise our health services fundamentally in a way that places the patient at the centre. This Bill is an important building block on the way to the introduction of a universal health insurance system where money follows the patient.

The creation of six national directorates is to be welcomed. They will focus on the areas of hospital care, primary care, mental health, child and family care, social care and public health. We need to bring services closer to people so that they can be treated in their own communities. Day care services, for example, are an important component of our health system. In my community, Clarecastle in County Clare, we have a thriving district day care service which serves a catchment area with a ten-mile radius. Fifty people attend the centre daily and they are provided with a broad range of health services and social activities. This community-led day care centre represents exceptional value for money and has dramatically improved the quality of life of those who attend and their families. In a nutshell, the centre enables people to live in their community for longer and to live independently.

The recently published HSE mid-west area service plan for non-acute services, 2013, confirms further enhancements of services at Clarecastle and serves as recognition of the range of competencies, including that of dementia-specific care, with the creation of a new development fund to support these important activities. This is most welcome news. I wish the hard-working board, manager and staff of Clarecastle day care centre well as they further develop the services. I also wish the board and management of the new Carrigoran day care centre in Newmarket-on-Fergus well as it launches its new service. It is a most impressive building that will offer a three-day service to its clients.

I acknowledge the process of change in the mid-west regional hospital network with the creation of a single hospital system incorporating six hospital sites, namely Limerick regional hospital, Ennis General Hospital, Nenagh General Hospital, St. John's Hospital, Limerick, the Mid-Western Regional Maternity Hospital and Croom orthopaedic hospital. The primary focus in 2012 was on strengthening governance in the hospital network. This was achieved through the establishment of clinical directorates and a new model of corporate and clinical governance. Key areas of patient safety concerns were focused on, in addition to achieving efficiency through the creation of a single hospital system in the mid-west region. This approach breaks down traditional barriers and makes it possible to utilise the total capacity of the hospital network in the region, which is leading to progress in the delivery of targets for scheduled and unscheduled care.

I welcome the opening of the new 50-bed ward block at Ennis General Hospital, which is a huge shot in the arm of health service provision in County Clare and the mid-west. In the coming weeks, a new site manager will be appointed at Ennis general hospital following the promotion of former manger Mr. Frank Keane to manager of the new maternity and child health directorate. Ennis has been accredited as a colorectal screening site, and this service is due to commence in the not-too-distant future.

There is ongoing commissioning of the critical care block at Limerick regional hospital with the opening of a state-of-the-art cardiology section backed up with the appointment of five cardiologists. I welcome the commencement of work on the new emergency department at Limerick regional hospital and look forward to its opening in the next 18 months. The mid-west hospital group also received an increase in the funding allocation this year of 10%. That is an increase from €216 million to €238 million. There are still funding challenges but this is certainly a boost.

I welcome this legislation as it is an important step towards achieving the goal of a single-tier health system together with universal health insurance.

I am sharing my time with Deputy Finian McGrath.

As the Minister said when introducing the Bill, it is a building block. It is a transitional Bill that is part of the Government's programme to reform the health service. Apparently the intention is to give the Minister more control over the health services. In the past year, we have seen what more control of the health services means in practice for the Minister. We witnessed the debacle of the prioritisation of primary health care centres that led to the resignation of a Minister of State at the Department of Health. New areas in the Minister's constituency were added at the last minute to the list without the knowledge of any of his Cabinet colleagues or, it seems, the HSE.

Two hospitals building programmes were announced by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, before the HSE even knew they were being prioritised. Is this the type of governance that the Minister is talking about? I have no doubt that we will continue to see this type of action from the Minister. If the examples I have given are not bad enough, it should be noted they are not what the Minister intends in this Bill. The Bill will provide for the establishment of a new management structure in the health service, creating a tier of directorships that will operate alongside the existing HSE structure of national directorships while he prepares to abolish the HSE. We are told this will be done without any extra cost to the Exchequer. What will happen in the transitional period? Will there be a freeze in the work of the health service as staff wait to see how the structural will emerge? We saw this before when the HSE was established. This led to years of inertia during which many workers and decision-makers at local level were unable to determine where decisions should be made or by whom.

A change of the magnitude that the Minister is proposing needs to be managed, and an organisation such as the HSE should have a change management team in place. This should cost money if it is done right. How can an organisation of almost 100,000 people change fundamentally without incurring any cost? The building block that this Bill is supposed to be a part of is a move to the universal health insurance model that the Government wants to introduce in the image of the Dutch model. In this system, we are told money will follow the patient. I remind the Minister of what his predecessor, Ms Mary Harney, said when introducing the Health Bill 2004:

It is our generation’s chance to put patients first in the design of the management of health services. It is our chance to put in place modern, effective management to make the best use of these tremendous resources we are applying to health and to get clear value and clear results for that money. It is our chance to create a system where money can follow patients and where outcomes can be measured.

Those words will sound very familiar on the Government side of the House. They have been uttered by the current Minister, Deputy Reilly, on many occasions and have been the mantra of Fine Gael Members for years. I, for one, hope the Minister's plans go the way of the previous Minister’s plans and that, in years to come, the health service will be reformed to move away from the universal health insurance model.

Universal health insurance will not be part of a system that will enjoy the faith of the people and I will not support the Government's effort to introduce it. Unfortunately, the Government is moving on the road to create the system, and this Bill is one part of that programme. The rolling out of the hospital groups is also a step, with the English system of trusts being established. This will drive the move to privatising the health system and handing over control to private health insurance companies. The programme for Government sets out that the hospital purchasing arm will merge with the National Treatment Purchase Fund to become a new purchaser of public patient care in the period of transition. It seems the Department of Health will purchase hospital care for public patients from the hospital groups, and this will fit nicely into the model of the universal health insurance companies.

For many reasons, the move to universal health insurance will mean health care will become more expensive and access will be restricted for citizens. When universal health insurance was introduced in the Netherlands in 2006, there were 13 health insurance companies operating there. Today, there are five. This is in a country with a population of 18 million. What do we expect to see in a country with 4.5 million people? The State will provide limited care for people who cannot afford it, with perhaps two companies operating and profiteering to the detriment of those who have no choice but to purchase from them.

In 2006, in the Netherlands, the average health cover cost approximately €1,000 per citizen. Today, it costs over €3,000 per citizen. How does that equate to progress? In the Netherlands universal health insurance buys a basic package of healthcare and it now has a system where citizens must buy top-ups to increase their cover. We will see the same happening here, but probably more quickly.

In discussing this Bill in the House, many Fine Gael members have complained that we are spending over €13 billion on the health services and that this cannot continue. There is much talk from them about how the health services must spend the funding in better ways and must achieve more for less, but all they are doing is using these fancy phrases. I have not heard any of them identify where is this waste and give concrete examples of where savings can be made.

By all accounts, there has been tension between the HSE and the Department of Health on where savings can be made. The Department and politicians claim that there are billions of euro to be saved from the elusive "efficiencies", and that other great mantra of "getting rid of waste". The HSE claims that it cannot do much more and maintain services without the Government tackling the matters over which the HSE has no control. The response of the Minister has been to introduce the so-called graduate nursing scheme, and that will be rolled out to other health professionals, cutting the wages of front-line health workers in order to save peanuts.

If there is to be one good outcome from this Bill, it will be that the Department of Health would not be able to hide behind the HSE and accept that the Department is not funding the service adequately. I believe the Minister should have more control over the health services and he should also be accountable for how the health services work. So should healthcare providers. The real problem with the HSE is that there is no accountability and there is a lack of clear information, and in a country of our size the type of treatment one can expect to receive depends on where one lives. One need only look at the debacle over catchment areas in Dublin hospitals that I highlighted in this House last year.

The health services may have reached, or even gone beyond, the level of cuts that they can sustain, unless, of course, there is this considerable waste and inefficiencies, of which we hear mention but of which we never hear any detail. In my county, for example, Letterkenny General Hospital is probably one of the most efficient hospitals in the country. Over 90% of procedures in the hospital are non-elective, yet the hospital has started each of the previous two years with a budget millions of euro short of what it needed to maintain services. This has been softened slightly this year with an increase in the budget allocation. This year Letterkenny General Hospital will only start the year €1 million short of what it needs to maintain the services. The fact is if we want a health service that is up to the standard of the best in Europe, it must be paid for. If the health service improves outcomes and becomes more efficient by treating more patients and ending waiting lists, then it will cost more, and there is no way of getting away from that.

The Government should be driving a debate about what type of health service we want and how much it would cost to provide it. Do we want a health service that is driven by private health insurance providers charging thousands of euro per citizen and driving the levels of treatment available with the State picking up the cost for those who cannot afford the premium? Or do we want a health service that is free at the point of contact where every citizen can access treatment as required in a system that is led by medical need where citizens can access it based on equality, not wealth? The second option may cost more but I believe that the Irish people would be willing to pay for it if they believed that it would be implemented.

I thank the Acting Chairman for the opportunity to speak on this legislation. Before I start, I offer my sympathy and condolences to the family of the great President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela who died yesterday evening, and also my support and solidarity to the people of Venezuela. Hugo Chávez was a great man and a great president who looked after the poor in Latin America and in his own country, and his record in reducing poverty by 50% and his improved health services over the past ten years have shown that he was a magnificent leader. I offer my deepest support and solidarity to his family and to all the people of Venezuela. There are many Irish, both at home and abroad, who would agree with this position. I express my condolences to the people.

It is important that we welcome and look at the broader debate on this legislation, the Health Service Executive (Governance) Bill 2012. This is an important debate on the way we run the health service. This is also an important debate on reform and change in the health service. Change and reform are what we all, not only the Government parties, promised at the last election, given what had happened to politics in Ireland in the previous five to six years. Nobody denies that we need change, nobody denies that we need radical reform and nobody denies that we need a quality health service. To do this, the Government needs to bring the citizens and the staff in the health service with it, otherwise it is doomed to failure. Reform and change are part of the agenda and if people are not up for it, they should not be involved in politics.

There are certain aspects of this legislation which are a step in the right direction. I welcome strong aspects of the Bill. It is important when one sees sensible proposals coming from the Government, even though I am an Opposition Deputy, to look at them and support them because we all want to improve the health services for citizens. We all will be aware that we are spending €13 billion on the health service. We all want to achieve efficiencies, we all want quality staff and we all want to deliver an efficient service in a professional way. There is no contradiction and no opposing view on that issue. My personal broader view is that in the long term I would like to see a universal health service paid for out of taxation. At present, we are looking at the idea of universal health insurance and I will speak about that as well because there are aspects in this legislation which will be positive.

The Bill abolishes the current board structure governing the Health Service Executive, HSE, and replaces this with a directorate system, headed by a director general. The Bill also provides for additional accountability arrangements in the HSE. The directorate structure is intended to be an interim measure, pending the ultimate dissolution of the HSE, which will require further legislation. This Bill does not change the legal status of the HSE under the Health Act 2004. Basically, that is what the legislation is about.

This is where I welcome it. It replaces the board with a directorate system, headed by a director general. I want to see directors leading change and bringing in the necessary radical reform. There has been too much bureaucracy. From past experience, when I was pushing the issue with the previous Government, I am aware that there were cock-ups and delays, for example, in the provision of the cystic fibrosis unit in St. Vincent's Hospital where there was a turf war between the HSE, the Department of Health and the Minister's office. With everything like that going on, those who suffered in the end were the patients with cystic fibrosis. Thankfully, that unit was eventually built. I welcome the fact that was done but I remember dealing with those families every day and the trauma it caused. We need decisive leadership and if there are good proposals in this legislation, I will support them. I make no apologies for that. We need to ensure that there are drivers for change within these structures and I see the role of the director general in that light.

The one measure I very much welcome in the Bill is the additional accountability arrangements for the HSE. That is something that we all support. Whether it is a patient on a trolley or somebody with a disability, there must be accountability and there must be staff who take responsibility for the jobs. In a previous job, I worked as a principal in a disadvantaged school in the north inner city. I often laugh when I hear of the bankers and developers wasting money and speculating, and all kinds of things going wrong. I remember doing our books every June to have them ready for the cigire. As the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, will be aware, the inspector would come in and if one was €10 over budget, he would be down on one like a ton of bricks. If I was €40 over budget, I had to go to the parents' council and ask could I take €40 from it to put into the school merely to ensure that books were in order. I always remember the efficiency of the inspector. I welcome accountability. When I saw what some others did, for example, in the regulation of the bankers, it blew my mind away.

The poorest schools in Ireland and the DEIS schools now were more efficient in managing public money than a lot of people who squander it. Public servants, whom I strongly support, have to deal with this issue of reform and take responsibility. Those in the HSE need to take responsibility and that is why the additional accountability arrangements for the HSE in the Bill represent an important reform. If people do not want to take responsibility or do not want to be accountable, they should forget the day job. We need people in jobs where they love their jobs. We also need to look at the idea of the good old-fashioned quality public servants such as teachers, gardaí, nurses and postal service workers, who like to serve their community and know they are paid out of public money and thereby develop accountability. Sadly over the past ten years that has not been in place in the HSE. There are positive aspects in the HSE. We have brilliant professional staff, but we also have major flaws and inefficiencies. People should do their best at all times in this regard. If 20 people are on trolleys in Beaumont Hospital tomorrow, I want the Minister to be accountable, but I also want the managers to be accountable and accountability should also come from the HSE.

In my speech I mentioned the late President Hugo Chávez, who spent much of his oil money on developing the health services and reducing poverty in Venezuela. We also need to ensure the €13 billion is spent in a sensible way. On the broader reform of the health service, we need to stop people going to emergency departments as much as possible because we need to ensure there are efficiencies there. Part of that policy must include dealing with the GP issue but also dealing with the medication issue. I disagree with the Government on issues such as cutting the respite care grant for people with a disability by €325. I do not accept that cut was acceptable at a financial level or from a human rights level. If we take money from people who are out in the community, at some stage they will end up involved professionally in the system and will cost more money.

Prevention is a very important part of any health strategy. Let us make sure that somebody surviving with a disability, for example, with a few extra bob through a respite care grant or something similar, is looked after. Many parents of children with disabilities regularly come to me and say that despite paying their taxes every week, when they go looking for a service they have to reduce service or take a hit. That is not acceptable - people forget about that. Some 13% of families are directly affected by a disability and I will be their voice in Dáil Éireann. They are telling me they go to work every week - those who have jobs - and pay their taxes, and so are entitled to look for a service. I do not believe it is acceptable. A very disabled young man in my constituency was getting a service five days a week in the CRC in Clontarf, but he is now reduced to three days. That is not acceptable in any society, regardless of what people say. With a €13 billion budget, I do not accept that some reasonable way cannot be found to fund that issue.

I support the reform proposals in the legislation. I have a broader view of the health service - I would lean more towards the Cuban model - I know the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, will be interested in that.

I have looked at it and it is not that good.

A week in Cuba might do him good. It might cheer him up and he could have a look at the health service and see the efficiencies they have there.

I never saw such poverty anywhere as I saw in Cuba. Everybody was begging.

That is understandable for a country being hammered by a blockade. I have been there as well and I saw-----

The Deputy was there on an official visit.

I was not there on an official visit.

He was a guest of the state.

I was having a look at it from the outside.

I saw the health service and the primary school service.

Who paid for his fare?

I saw a service for disabled children from the cradle to the grave, which I did not see in this country.

On the broader issue, the Government Members should open their minds and open their eyes-----

Our eyes are open.

Certain things are done well in some countries - let us look at them and follow good practice.

I do not say I have the solution to every economic and social problem in the world, but if we listen to some of the ideas of great people like the late President Hugo Chávez we will not go wrong, particularly in the area of health.

Now that Deputy Finian McGrath has successfully made the link between the death of President Chávez and HSE corporate governance, I will also touch on the point. He is correct in saying our minds should be open to new ideas and things that work well in other countries. We should consider models that work well elsewhere to see if they are applicable to Ireland. The most dangerous threat to the concept of representative politics is the idea that all politicians are the same, that ideology and policy do not matter, and that regardless of whom we vote for we will get the same outcomes and the same policy. That is something that is particularly relevant to Ireland at the moment as we struggle with terrible financial difficulty and look to exit a bailout programme later in the year. I believe it is also a concern across Europe as people look at the relationship individual nation states have with the European Union and their interaction abroad that regardless of the government, the outcomes will be the same.

In that spirit, I accept that the late President Chávez offered a different view of how his country could be run and the role government could play. Even though I had concerns over some of the things he did and some of the directions he wanted to take, he clearly mattered deeply to the people of Venezuela and showed that politics could matter and make a difference. Therefore, his demise should be recognised and sympathy should be extended. Deputy Finian McGrath is correct in that regard.

This debate is about the role of the HSE and its future. The opening ceremony for the London Olympic Games was a fantastic ceremony orchestrated by one of Britain's leading film directors. A striking point was the prominent role given to recognition of the NHS in that ceremony. People were celebrating the role of the NHS and of nurses, doctors and the people who run it. The vision of the people, such as Ernest Bevin, Clement Atlee and William Beveridge, who set up that organisation, regarding a welfare state and the difference it could make and the war on the four evils, as they described it, clearly resonates with the people of Britain to the degree that they wanted to celebrate it in the opening ceremony of the Olympic Games. The acting director general of the HSE was asked if a similar ceremony was organised in Ireland for the opening of a sporting event like the Olympic Games whether the HSE would receive that kind of recognition and get that kind of celebration. He was forced to reluctantly conclude that the answer to that question was that it would probably not, and I believe he is right.

We need to ask why that is. Is it because of the quality of our nurses and doctors? Absolutely not. I believe anybody who attends a GP or goes to a hospital or primary care centre comes away impressed by the quality of care and compassion they get from the people with whom they engage. Is it because of the quality of the people who are leading our hospitals? I have dealt with many of those people and I must conclude that the answer to that question is also "No". I have met the chief executive of the Mater hospital on a number of occasions and have met the people who run Temple Street Hospital and seen the work they do. They are second to nobody in terms of the commitment they have to patient care and to doing all they can to ensure their hospitals offer the best possible environment for people who need care and want to recover.

At the opening of the new Phoenix Care Centre in Grangegorman, which I attended and the Minister may recall for another reason, the Minister spoke about heritage and the tradition of compassion and care in such facilities on the part of staff there in terms of caring in the best way possible, despite the limitations on them, for people who are vulnerable. I also attended the Minister's opening of the new extension to the Mater hospital, which is an extraordinary new facility in the centre of the inner city. On that occasion, I again heard staff speak of the type of care they want to give people in that new facility.

In seeking to reconcile the difference between the quality of staff within our health service, the €13 billion being invested in it and the resonance, despite this, of the HSE with the people of Ireland, I am forced to conclude that there are difficulties in terms of the manner in which our health care services are designed and delivered and in the structure of the link between money invested in the health care system and the quality of care received by the patient. That said, despite the difficulties we are experiencing, huge progress is being made. There has been a reduction in the number of people on trolleys in our hospitals this year versus last year despite that, regrettably, less money is being allocated in this regard; the number of people awaiting operations for more than three months has also decreased and the number of children awaiting urgent medical attention, who should not have to wait for it, has also decreased, as has the number of adults on such waiting lists. Despite our difficulties, progress is being made in many areas.

This Bill deals with the design of the Health Service Executive and how we can change it further to ensure we get more from the enormous compassion and financial resource that exists in our health care service. I am certain that the direction in which this legislation proposes to move the HSE is the right one. Does any Member of this House believe that if he or she had the privilege of doing the job of the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, taking account all of the challenges and opportunities to deliver, he or she would be better placed to do that job following publication of this legislation? In my view, the answer to that question is, yes. The reason he or she would be better placed to do the job following enactment of this legislation is because it seeks to ensure a more consistent and coherent decision-making process within the Department of Health and its impact on care on the ground. It also seeks to strengthen accountability and the links of control around decisions made at policy level and how they are implemented.

I would like to focus on a number of additional areas I would like to see improved and believe will be improved in the coming years. I make the following suggestions based on my interaction on a number of occasions as a member of the Committee of Public Accounts with the Secretary General of the Department of Health and acting director general of the Health Service Executive. It strikes me that there are a number of areas worthy of further work and focus, the first of which is how we track and monitor through the systems in use within the Health Service Executive. During a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts I asked Mr. O'Brien about the level of wages in the HSE, who is doing what, how allowances are allocated and efficiencies within the system. He made the point that despite its best efforts the HSE still does not have a single system that is capable of tracking the allocation of moneys in the health care system. In saying this, I am a aware that the caveat in this regard is that many of our hospitals are voluntary hospitals. In other words, they are not directly run by the State and therefore extension of IT systems in it, as compared with their extension into hospitals run directly by the State, is difficult. That being said, many of the pay-roll systems currently in operation have been in operation since the previous health board system. This is despite the fact that the Health Service Executive has been in operation for many years. As we grapple with the issues of consultant pay and implementation of the new Croke Park agreement, if supported by the unions, greater progress in the aforementioned areas is essential if this type of legislation is to make the difference needed.

Another issue of concern is the role of early intervention teams in dealing with many of the health and quality of life difficulties faced by citizens. I am particularly aware - I am glad the Minister is in the House as I make the following point - of the role of early intervention teams in the area of speech and language therapy. Many parents have raised with me the difficulties they are experiencing accessing the services needed for their children. While their children are in primary schools and are in receipt of support from their teachers, they need further support in terms of diagnosis of their conditions and early intervention in terms of the provision of appropriate care. The Minister, having been a general practitioner and having experience in this area, will know better than I that the earlier children receive care and support the better the outcome in terms of their quality of life and the opportunity to realise their full potential. The State also benefits and not only because the children realise the potential their families and we want them to achieve but because this the right way to run our health system and schools. I urge the Minister - I understand this will be difficult given all of the other issues he is currently managing - to ensure that as money becomes available - I am certain it will through the changes we are making - and our recovery accelerates everything possible is done to prioritise the care of these young children and their families. I also deal with people on the other side of the coin, namely, the young men and women we have trained in the area of speech and language therapy and who have enormous expertise in terms of diagnosis of the conditions from which children suffer. These people are currently unable to find employment in this country.

My final point relates to reform. I agree with Deputy Finian McGrath that there is no politician who does not favour reform. I have spoken on this issue many times in the past. In my view, we must reach a point of no more change. We need to put in a place a system and allow it to bed down and work. As much as I believe reform is required and will be implemented by Government I believe also that an agenda of continual reform and upheaval for those working in our hospitals is not good. Staff working in our hospitals, general practitioners, nurses and consultants are entitled to know, following reform, that they will be allowed to work for a reasonable period in that new environment and that further reform will not be sought until such time as there has been a review of how the new system works.

The Minister has worked as a doctor in various parts of the health service and I am certain he knows the value of this. In the United Kingdom the reform agenda was championed in particular by people such as civil servant Anthony Barber, and Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and David Cameron have also done work on this. They always speak about reform and seek to introduce radical change. When this change is introduced, and fundamental changes have been made with regard to money following the patient, governance and how we want to structure and merge the HSE and the Department of Health, we should let it be for a while to allow our energies and the attention of the Minister and the people working in our hospitals focus on how to make these processes work as opposed to continually looking at how the processes need to change radically.

In a discussion such as this it is vital to acknowledge the big progress made and the new facilities being opened. A primary care centre will be opened in Grangegorman within a few years. This is a gigantic change for the people I represent. I am sure a primary care centre will open in Summerhill in the inner city on a piece of land the late Tony Gregory identified. This is a colossal change and offers huge opportunities for the people we serve, in the same way the roll-out of the D-Doc service has provided a choice for people in where to go at weekends if they do not want to go to the Mater hospital accident and emergency department because, while their problem is serious, it is not serious enough for a hospital. D-Doc has given them an option as to where to go and it has made a big difference. Many of the waiting lists and the number of people on trolleys and awaiting particular operations are reducing due to intervention by the Minister and due to continued work by the people who really care, namely, staff, nurses and doctors. I look forward to seeing the Bill continuing this work and clarifying the lines of accountability in our health care system to ensure we come up with a system which reflects the aspirations of the people working in it and meets the needs of the people we look to serve. I am sure the Bill will represent progress on this.

I acknowledge the presence of the Minister and I sincerely thank the Technical Group for allowing me time to speak on this important Bill. Many years ago I started out as a young politician on the old Southern Health Board and I believed in the structures of the board at the time. I learned many valuable lessons from other board members because, as the Minister remembers, at the time the structure of the board was very different from what exists at present, and consultants and national and local public representatives, who had a wealth of experience, attended the meetings. I would be neglectful if I did not mention one great friend I had at the time and perhaps the Minister knew him also. His son, Deputy Sean Sherlock, is a Minister of State. Joe Sherlock was a man for whom I had tremendous respect and I am sorry he is gone to his eternal reward. I know he is above in heaven looking down. He brought passion to health board meetings and fought in a forceful way. I remember him shaking and trembling when fighting for Mallow Hospital like it was yesterday. He brought a real sincerity to meetings which I valued and appreciated.

I had respect for the structures of the board at the time because we had an input into the budget which, as everybody knows, is very important because to influence change one must influence the budget. I thought the old Southern Health Board was a good model. Unfortunately, doctors differ and patients die. The new HSE was brought into being and one of the first things it did in its infinite wisdom was to remove politicians. I remember thinking at the time this was wrong because I believed politicians brought to meetings their own expertise and local knowledge from dealing with constituents. They were able to raise important local, national and regional issues. When we speak about the old health boards we are speaking about regions and we are not being parochial. I immediately saw a very big problem with the set-up of the new HSE and I was proven right, because after a while it was decided to bring back the politicians. I was one of these politicians and I immediately saw an awful change in how the structures worked. We were virtually toothless . We attended meetings, but it was not the same and the new structure did not have the same effect or bite as the old Southern Health Board. I know the Minister must move on and I appreciate there must be change. Excellent speeches have been made today on the need for change. I know in today's world the structure of the old Southern Health Board would not be fit for the practice, but change for the sake of it is not something I welcome.

I must say something about accountability. I remember when the Minister was an excellent Opposition spokesperson on health and he attacked and berated the then Minister at every opportunity, which was his right and his job. He did it very effectively which in turn ensured he was the new Minister for Health. I must be honest, and the Minister knows that for personal reasons I do not like being critical of him above anybody else on that side of the House-----

The Deputy is waving the knife around for a long time before sticking it in.

I will be very kind to the Minister but at the same time I must make this point, and I know he cannot disagree with me for making it. If a Deputy wants to tackle the Minister for Health on an issue by tabling a parliamentary question, he or she receives the response that the Minister has referred the matter to the HSE. It is maddening and the Minister would agree if he were on this side of the House and wanted to engage with a Minister for Health who was looking at him as though he had four heads and telling him to go away and take up the matter with the HSE. At the end of the day he is the Minister for Health. The buck should stop with whoever is the Minister and the Minister knows I am not being personal. I absolutely hate the idea of a Minister putting up the shutters of the HSE. It is like a shield with the Minister stating: "Please, go away, this is not my problem. I am just the Minister for Health. You must take your problem up with the HSE." This is absolutely not good enough. The Minister was very forceful when Mary Harney was the Minister. I remember him berating her, telling her she was the Minister and that it was her responsibility and she should not hide behind anyone else. What is he doing now that he is in the role himself? He is doing the exact same thing. Why does he not change?

That is what this Bill is about. It is about getting rid of the HSE so that I do take responsibility.

Yes, but there were plenty of times the Minister could have handled situations differently, yet he used the system in the same way as previous Ministers did. I will save criticism also for past Ministers who were from parties other the Minister's one.

It is nationally and internationally recognised that our community hospitals are not just essential, but also vital in delivering health care throughout the country. The Minister is a lot older than I am, so he can remember when we had Government Ministers who thought it was a good idea to close down our community hospitals. In the county that I represent, we once had a Minister who thought it was a great idea to close down the hospitals in Kenmare, Killarney, Caherciveen, Skibbereen, Millstreet and a couple of others, at one stroke of a pen. That Minister thought this would be better for the delivery of health care. If that had been allowed to happen it would have been one of the most disastrous political decisions ever made. Thankfully, however, there was a very forceful chairman of the old Southern Health Board at the time. His name happened to be Jackie Healy-Rae and he laid it on the line to the then Minister that those hospitals would only close over his dead body. A determined argument was put up against their closure and consequently they were saved.

The current Minister knows that every Deputy works on a daily basis with community hospitals in their areas. They know how important they are. They provide long-stay beds for people who are not fit to enter nursing homes because they need special medical care. They also offer physiotherapy services and respite care. In addition, patients in larger hospitals who are not fit to go home can be cared for in step-down facilities in community hospitals.

I wish to pay a special tribute to the matrons and nurses in those community hospitals who do Trojan work. I know the Minister would also wish to pay them tribute. They really work above and beyond the call of duty. We should realise what it means to be a nurse or other front-line health worker today. Every day I am contacted by people working in the health service who highlight problems and inadequacies in their workplaces. They are under great strain and genuine hardship in carrying out their daily work. It is staggering. We are dealing with an ageing population which brings added pressures to the system.

Younger nurses have their own troubles with high mortgages and husbands who may not be working as they did in the past. Therefore, they are under strain at home and when they go to work they are under severe strain. I am no different from other elected representatives who know people in such predicaments personally. Such people are really feeling the strain, but they keep saying that there is no accountability at the top. They say that everything is being thrown at them and it is up to them to deliver the service with very limited resources, so they are being put through the mill.

I would not be doing my job properly if I did not also highlight the issue of psychiatric services and how the HSE system works in that regard. A change has been made recently with regard to assisted admissions. In the past, they were done through the Kerry health services but they must now go through a company in Kildare. The Minister should think about this matter. Instead of doing an assisted admission within County Kerry, we are employing a company from Kildare to do the work. I have nothing against Kildare, they are great people there, but why must we employ people in Kildare to work on assisted admissions in Kerry? Perhaps the Minister can prove me wrong, but I estimate that it will cost five times as much to carry out an assisted admission through this company rather than doing it locally in Kerry. The difference however - it is like a three-card trick - is that the cost will not be borne by the Kerry services. It will be borne nationally by the HSE, so it will not as though the budget for admissions in Kerry is going through the roof, but the exact opposite. The cost will go down because it is not being charged to Kerry but is being absorbed nationally by the HSE. This is one of the many examples of changes that are being made but to no good purpose. It does not make sense to me. Can the Minister deal with this matter? I tabled a parliamentary question about it, but I was certainly not happy with the reply I received. It does not make financial sense and neither does it make for good work practices.

In every constituency, health staff are being taken out of day centres to fill the required staff levels in hospitals. This, in effect, is leaving day care centres short staffed. By their very nature, such centres are assisting predominantly elderly people. It is a vicious circle, however, because such people are being kept out of community hospitals. We have always been told that it is better to take care of people's needs at home or as near to home as possible. That is why our day care services are invaluable. I work closely with many day care and health centres in County Kerry and I see at first hand the excellent service they provide. Less than a few hundred metres from where I live there is an Alzheimer's unit which provides an invaluable service to the wider community in my region. I can see the positive impact that unit has on elderly people in the early stages of Alzheimer's. I compliment the management and staff who provide great care in all such centres around the country.

It is great that the Minister for Health is also a medical doctor because he can appreciate and understand that the patient must come first at all times. We must recognise, however, that we cannot squeeze any more from health service staff. One can only squeeze so much and no more.

In recent months, certain situations have dogged the health system. One only has to examine the Government's decision to centralise the processing of medical cards. One may ask what that has to do with the delivery of health care locally, but it does have an effect. People with medical problems that require treatment want to obtain a medical card, yet they are unable to do so because the connectivity that was there in the past in local regions has been centralised.

There was a brilliant system in place, in which the people who processed the cards were able to deal with community welfare officers and community welfare nurses and could get information about locals. They were able to work together to ensure the speedy and timely delivery of a medical card. If this did not happen and if a person could not afford to get his or her health care taken care of because of the delay arising from the Government's centralising of the processing of the cards, it meant the health of the person in question would deteriorate. What might have been a problem that could have been dealt with in a community hospital would worsen suddenly and the person would be obliged to attend a regional hospital and take up an acute bed. More than anyone else in this House, the Minister knows the cost of an acute bed in one of the main hospitals. It costs enormous sums of money and as one wishes to avoid having people lying in trolleys, it again comes down to early intervention, while always remembering that the patients' concerns and health come first. I acknowledge the Minister appreciates this point.

In the future, the great working relationship with the general practitioners must be continued as by using their common sense at all times, they do their best to get people the care they require while avoiding unnecessary admissions.

One minute remains to the Deputy.

In that case, I must speed up. I have seen the health service from both sides because approximately 20 years ago, I was a long-term patient in hospitals and saw the great work that is done on a personal basis. Until the day I die, I will never be able to say enough good things for the people who were with me at that time. Accountability starts both at the bottom and the top and everyone must be accountable, including the Minister for Health. Massive sums of money are being spent on health and if at all possible, to save on the budget, efforts should be made to treat people at home. This is the reason I told the Taoiseach this morning of my horror that the grants available for disabled and elderly people in County Kerry have been slashed from €3.6 million last year to €1.4 million this year, which is a reduction of 50%. This may well lead to people who could have stayed at home on foot of the installation of downstairs bedrooms and bathrooms ending up by taking up room in a community hospital. Good oversight and good governance are important. I also compliment the SouthDoc service on its excellent work in my region, as well as all the other networks that perform similar functions throughout the country.

I thank the Deputy, that is grand.

I wish the Minister well and welcome the fact he will join me in opening a new hospital in Kenmare in the near future and next year, a new 40-bed unit for psychiatric services in Killarney.

I understand Deputy Penrose is sharing time with Deputy Nolan.

Yes, I am sharing my time with Deputy Nolan.

The Deputies will have ten minutes each.

I am glad to have the opportunity to contribute today to this important debate on the Health Service Executive (Governance) Bill 2012. I am glad the Minister is present in the Chamber, as it shows the importance he attaches to trying to sort out this problem in a forward way.

Were I sitting in the Minister's seat today and taking account of the Government's efforts to set out a clear vision for the future of the health services and the fundamental and extremely important objective of ensuring greater accountability by the HSE to the Minister directly as Minister for Health and to his successors, I straight away would abolish and dissolve not just the board of the HSE. I would put in place a new streamlined governance structure, which basically would comprise directorates or heads, as the Minister has pointed out. I would abolish them straight away and would not have any interim steps, as I have good reason to have no confidence in the structure that has evolved and emerged since 2004, when the old health board structures were abolished. Many Members expressed their fears of what might emerge when this out-of-control bureaucratic labyrinthine structure was set in place and it gives me no pleasure to state their worst fears have been and are being confirmed. In effect, this was a pyramid of bureaucracy with well-paid managers put in place, all of whom were located well away from the local management sites in which they should have been placed, being based in Dublin, Naas or wherever. However, this structure was built in a pyramidal fashion upon the old health board management structure and, worst of all, effectively removed all decision-making functions and abilities from the local managers and administrators who always were best placed with intimate and detailed knowledge and who held the most ability to make critical and ongoing decisions at the level of the coalface, that is, right at the counter, face-to-face with the user or the customer of the service. Moreover, these decisions always were decisive and quick and notwithstanding the fact that one may not always have concurred with or liked all those decisions, nevertheless in general they were correct and one must acknowledge that. I reiterate they were decisive and correct and dealt with the problem there and then.

This clearly was the position during my almost 30 years of experience as a public representative when dealing with senior health board management officials in Longford, Mullingar or Tullamore. One had people who were familiar with the problems, backgrounds and circumstances, be they financial or relating to the health of a person involved, as well as the nature or degree of the emergency at issue. I pay tribute to these people, who epitomised everything one expects in public servants. They provided a top-class, efficient and effective public service. Moreover, it always was given with a smile, even if the decisions may well have been ones other than what the person who sought their help desired. I refer to people like the late Tommy O'Hara, a superb administrator with the Midland Health Board based in Mullingar. Similarly, Dorrie Mangan, Dick Stokes, Donie Murtagh, Derry O'Dwyer and Finbar Murphy - I could go on and on - all were extraordinary individuals who made thousands of decisions over the years in a highly efficient, productive, thoughtful and caring way, reflecting all that is good in respect of the ethos of public service and public servants. Moreover, they were aided and abetted by great assistance from their staff from the clerical officers right up through the ranks. However, I will cite an example of what the HSE then did in one area to which I also heard Deputy Healy Ray refer earlier, that is, the General Medical Services, GMS, and medical cards. The HSE took the processing away from this efficient form of local administration and centralised it at a post office address in Finglas - clearly removed from the people they needed to serve - thereby showing a disdainful disregard and disrespect for the people affected. This clearly was a retrograde step, which did not involve significant savings and which epitomised and encapsulates the reason the HSE has lost the confidence of the people and the broad mass of public representatives who come into contact with it.

In another example, people come to Members' clinics with various health issues, such as the need for urgent operations, dental or orthodontic issues in respect of young children, outcrops and everything else, schoolchildren under 14 years of age with significant dental problems and a host of other personal issues. If one raises such issues in the Dáil via parliamentary question, the Minister will reply to the effect it is a matter for the parliamentary division of the HSE to deal with and the Minister will refer it on. It is sent to the HSE, where it disappears into a black hole from which it may never emerge. Even if it does, the people may have borrowed money from the credit union - if they can get it now, given the new restrictions on them and on other financial institutions - or wherever and have the procedure carried out or they may have died in the interim. What kind of service is that?

In the good old days of the health boards, for all of their reputed faults and I agree it was necessary to have them upgraded, refurbished and brought into the modern era, they nevertheless still were highly efficient. One would have a reply within the week and could advise one's constituents accordingly. I would abolish this monster today and revert back to a system with an upgraded or modernised health board structure, which at least would have a local input and which would listen. What is wrong with politicians having an input, as well as various representatives of professional organisations and the staff? This is the way it was and in effect, Members had a representative role. People did not talk down to one, lecture one or make one feel like nobody. Above all, they had respect for one as a public representative. I have a sheaf of letters I could show the Minister that I sent to senior managers in the HSE, none of which were afforded the courtesy of a reply. I believe the biggest issue they had was wondering how I had got such accurate information.

The Minister expects me on behalf of the constituents of Longford-Westmeath, whom I am proud to represent, to have any faith in this body. I have none whatsoever when I am treated in such a disrespectful fashion. I always personally reply to people who make the effort to contact me. It is a fundamental precept of courtesy and respect even if I disagree fundamentally with them.

How could I have confidence in a structure that so blatantly colluded in depriving MRH Mullingar, one of the top three hospitals in the country for the past decade in efficiency, effectiveness, throughput, output and outcomes, of its rightful share of funding and which engaged in spirting it off to other hospitals. The executive is implementing a policy that is contrary to what the Minister has advocated - I have heard him say so at Cabinet - which is that the money will follow the patient where there is a clear and demonstrable increase in activity, effectiveness, quality, treatment and outputs. These parameters have all not only been achieved, but clearly exceeded in MRH Mullingar, which the Minister has acknowledged on radio and television, and that is why I have no belief in the HSE and I will continue to defy the Minister, no matter the intent of sections 5 and 6 and other amendments concerning the relationship between the HSE and the Minister and his successors. I wish him well in his ambition and I acknowledge he has put a great deal of thought into this. He will have my support to make HSE officials accountable, to make sure they reply to Members and to make sure the money follows the patients. That is the Minister's concept and that is what officials should ensure but I can give him examples where they do not do this and they refuse to reply. He will be aware of one or two examples. I do not spare the rod but I believe in being truthful; they do not. That is why I have no time for them.

The budget for MRH Mullingar was supposed to be €58 million in 2012 and the administrators spent €59 million. The budget has been reduced by another 4.4%, which means the number of people looked after has been reduced by more than 50. The hospital has lost 70 nurses with only 19 replaced, which means a net loss of 51. We have done our job. The accident and emergency department has experienced a 50% increase in clients, with people travelling from Roscommon, Leitrim and other areas. The acuteness of patients' conditions is also higher. Why did the HSE not give the hospital an additional allocation as it copes with a significant additional intake of such patients to ensure they are afforded the appropriate treatment they deserve? If the executive gave the hospital the amount it deserves, if only to provide limited accommodation for patients from outside its catchment area, there would not have been an overrun of €1 million in 2012. The overrun was clearly related to looking after people from other areas. It is clear from any objective analysis that the hospital was punished for being efficient whereas the opposite should have been the case.

This is why I look forward to the new hospital groups the Minister will announce shortly, which will see our excellent hospital grouped with the Mater hospital and St. Vincent's hospital in Dublin, two excellent hospitals. This is a clear recognition that MRH Mullingar will be the top hospital in north Leinster. If the Minister gives us a few additional resources, a major rehabilitation centre and approximately €30 million, which is required for new theatres and to refurbish current theatres, the excellent staff from consultants, doctors, nurses, paramedics to attendants will not let him down. They will deliver the next phase of the health reform programme he has planned in a positive and proactive way and we will play a constructive role in that.

Previous contributions, including the passionate contribution from Deputy Penrose, highlight that HSE is a damaged brand lacking credibility in which people have little faith. I do not say the organisation's staff are branded with that because anybody I talk to who has dealt with the health services speak highly of the staff they deal with. However, the organisation's bureaucratic structure, the way people interact with it and the way it operates infuriates people and is causing severe problems and issues for people across the country. That is why I welcome the Bill, which is a step in the right direction.

The Bill intends to be a step on the way to the UHI model. Of all the priorities in the programme for Government, our desire, intention and plan to introduce UHI and to finally take economics, ability to pay and personal circumstances out of access to health care is one of the reasons I support the Government so strongly. Anybody, regardless of their background or circumstances, will never have to worry about money in their pocket when accessing health care. If we achieve that during this term in government, we will have achieved something monumental. It is one of the issues on which I am particularly proud to support the Government.

There are a number of problems with the structure of the HSE, which were alluded to more eloquently by Deputy Penrose, but the accountability of expenditure is crucial. Earlier, I had a discussion with an official in HSE west about allocations for disability services. It is my understanding that a pot of money has been allocated for disability services nationally and the reduction of 1.2% in the allocation negotiated nationally is working its way down. However, the budget, as it has been allocated, is being interpreted differently in various HSE regions so much so that I still do not have a figure for the cutback in HSE west and it may differ from the percentage negotiated nationally. The concept of directorates, whereby the money will be disbursed to a single directorate and would mean, for example, the disability budget would go to the disability directorate, which would allocate and monitor the money to ensure value for money, is welcome. The HSE was a fake corporate veil. It was used to give the Minister the opportunity to say, "That is not my problem. That is for the HSE". It created an artificial wall between those responsible for the health service, which are public representatives and the Government, and the corporate entity at whose door we could lay accountability. That needs to change and this legislation is acknowledged by the Minister and his Department as a step along the way to the abolition of the HSE, which I welcome.

I refer to a positive development in the health service, for which I would like to give the Minister credit because he gets many knocks. He deserves credit for the way in which the health service in Galway has been transformed positively as part of the Galway and Roscommon hospital group. The new chief executive, Bill Maher, who came from St. Vincent's hospital, Dublin, and Tony Canavan, whom I know in Galway, are working hard to change the entire management concept of how the hospitals are run. They have a network of four hospitals Galway University Hospital, GUH, including Merlin Park, Portiuncula Hospital in Ballinasloe and Roscommon County Hospital and rather than saying every hospital has to provide every service, they have said GUH will be the acute centre, Merlin Park, the step down centre and the other two hospitals will be responsible for other functions. They are using their resources cleverly and properly, which is something we have not experienced previously. They are also introducing concepts, which anybody working in the private sector or cutting edge public service bodies knows should have been introduced a long time ago, such as key performance indicators, management plans, target and clinical director meetings where people administrating the service sit down with the staff and put plans together and follow through on them.

The people who are most impressed and heartened by this are the staff because they have worked for so long in a leaderless environment. To the shame of the previous Government, it was often said that GUH was the worst run hospital in the State but it is turning this perception around because it is putting in place a proper management plan and examining how it implements initiatives. The Government is only two years old but some of the changes that have been introduced in a short period have meant that, despite a massive increase in accident and emergency department activity - GUH has the second busiest such department in the State - trolley waiting times have reduced significantly. They have not been eliminated but they have been reduced and progress has been made. The hospital had one of the worst records for inpatient targets. It hit the nine-month target this year and is on course to meet the eight-month target in June 2013. There are 43,000 people on outpatient waiting lists. By simply going through them and analysing them, staff have taken 3,000 people off them.

Debate adjourned.
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