Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 13 Jun 2013

Vol. 806 No. 3

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I express our deepest sympathy to the families of Paul, Kenny and Shane Bolger who tragically lost their lives off the Tramore coast. I am sure everybody in the House shares these sentiments. Our thoughts are with their families at this very sad time.

It is reported today that the Government will appoint Judge Elizabeth Dunne to chair the new Referendum Commission in respect of the abolition of the Seanad. This announcement has been made even before the legislation has been passed by the Oireachtas - the Legislature - or before we know the date of the referendum. It seems like the Taoiseach is on a solo run with this initiative. It is fair to say the Labour Party is less than enthusiastic about it. The party Whip, Deputy Emmet Stagg, said the only commitment the Labour Party had given was to hold a referendum to scrap the Seanad. He said "that doesn't tie any Labour person to campaigning for that." He then said, "I think the Seanad should be retained." Deputy Joanna Tuffy has described it as a power grab, while Deputy Michael McCarthy is determined to campaign for a reformed Seanad and is against its abolition. Senator John Whelan will vigorously campaign for the reform and retention of the Seanad. Interestingly, according to Senator John Kelly, the Tánaiste has said the Labour Party can canvass for the retention of the Seanad. It is fair to say the Labour Party's heart is not in the referendum and that it is a sop to the personal commitment given by the Taoiseach at a dinner in 2009. It is the ultimate power grab. Will the Tánaiste confirm whether he has told members of his party that they can canvass for the retention of the Seanad? If so, is the Government going ahead with the referendum and is it doing so purely because of a personal commitment given by the Taoiseach? Will the Tánaiste confirm when the referendum will be held? I understand a date in early October has been mooted, but I am sure the Tánaiste will be able to inform the House today about when the Government intends to hold the referendum.

The Tánaiste

I join the Deputy in expressing my sympathy and that of the Government to the families and friends of Paul, Kenny and Shane Bolger, the three brothers from Passage East, County Waterford who lost their lives so tragically in a fishing trip off the south-east coast. We all share the sense of loss felt by their families, friends, the local community and the entire fishing and maritime community in the country who have always had a great sense of solidarity and grief on occasions such as this.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív will recall that referendum commissions have expressed the view on a number of occasions that they would like to have more time to prepare for referendums. That is the reason the Government has decided at this early stage to appoint Judge Elizabeth Dunne to chair the Referendum Commission. I am interested to hear the Deputy speak on this subject because he has a bit of form on it. I recall that he announced publicly that he had voted against the Lisbon treaty in the first referendum on it. He was then prevailed upon by his Government colleagues to come round on the second occasion; therefore, he knows a bit about the complexities of a referendum campaign.

The proposal to abolish the Seanad is a Government proposal in the programme for Government. The abolition of the Seanad was part of the election manifestos of the two Government parties prior to the last general election and the intention is to proceed with it. The legislation to give effect to the proposal is before the Dáil and the debate on it will commence shortly. There will be plenty of opportunities to debate it in both the Dáil and the Seanad. Both Government parties will support the proposal in the Dáil and the Seanad and will make the case for it in the event of the Dáil and the Seanad adopting the legislation and proceeding with the referendum.

The Labour Party published a document prior to the last general election which set out the rationale for why a small state such as Ireland should have one parliamentary body. The case being made is that a state with 4.6 million people should have one parliamentary body, which should be the Dáil. The Dáil should have its powers increased and enhanced to do its job more effectively. That is why we have been advancing reform measures such as increasing the amount of sittings of the Dáil, providing opportunities for the introduction of Private Members' legislation, the enhancement of the work of the committees, the introduction of legislation to empower the Oireachtas to conduct inquiries, the strengthening of the Freedom of Information legislation and the introduction of whistleblowers legislation. All of these measures are aimed at reforming our parliamentary process. I hope that on this occasion Fianna Fáil will support the efforts the Government is making to ensure we will have a modern, efficient and reformed Parliament.

Deputy John Browne

There is no sign of it yet.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Is the Tánaiste sure the Labour Party will support it?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I thank the Tánaiste for his reply. Perhaps he might clarify if he made the statement attributed to him by Senator John Kelly and also say when I made a statement on how I had voted in the Lisbon treaty referendum? He is incorrect in what he said.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Therefore, the Deputy was behind it all the time.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Perhaps it is something the Deputy said, but he does not know about it.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Look who is talking.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

The most silent man in the Dáil.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please allow Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív to put his question.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

If the Tánaiste checks the record, he will know that what he said is incorrect.

Deputy John Browne

He is misleading the Dáil.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Does the Tánaiste think it is symptomatic of the total disregard of the Government for the Oireachtas that it has appointed a Referendum Commission when neither this House nor the Seanad has yet agreed to the legislation? He is correct that the judge said more time should be provided. However, I am sure he did not want the Government to pre-empt the two Houses of the Oireachtas and the President. What he said was that more time should be provided between the passage of the legislation and the date set for the holding of the referendum. Is it a major plank of the Government's policy on Dáil reform to introduce the guillotine in dealing with crucial and sensitive legislation in order that it cannot be debated in the House?

Deputy Finian McGrath

Even the Minister of State, Deputy Paul Kehoe, is upset about that.

The Tánaiste

The rationale for the early appointment of a chairman of the Referendum Commission is to respond to the requests made previously in reports of referendum commissions that the commission be established at an earlier date. The proposition being put to the people is one that must be debated and decided on by the House. The Referendum Commission operates independently. The Deputy knows well that it does not take a position one way or the other on what is being put to the people. Previous referendum commissions have recommended that a commission be appointed at an earlier date. What the Government is proposing in regard to reform of this House is a new procedure for the processing of legislation. In the first instance, the heads of a Bill would be discussed by the relevant Oireachtas committee before formal drafting. This is already in operation and there is a general acceptance that it is a better way of doing our business. While Report and Final Stages of Bills are taken together, it is proposed that Report Stage be taken in the normal way and that the Bill then be returned to the relevant committee for reflection on issues that may have been missed or may require further re-examination. As part of this process, a facility would be provided whereby Oireachtas committees could obtain the advice of experts and others interested in the legislation concerned. It is not just a question of how legislation is dealt with in this House-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

As in the case of the debate on the social welfare Bill in the Dáil last night. Is that the new way?

The Tánaiste

-----it is also a question of involving wider society in the enactment of legislation in order that there is a much more comprehensive look at the laws being made and better use of Dáil committees and engagement with all involved. I appreciate that reform is anathema to Fianna Fáil. There was little evidence of reform during the 14 years it was in office. In the two years since it took office the Government has done more to reform politics and public service than Fianna Fáil ever did in the previous 14 years.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

This morning the coastal communities of Passage East and Dunmore East are mourning the deaths of three brothers, Paul, Kenny and Shane Bolger. On behalf of Sinn Féin and, I am sure, all Members of the House, I express my condolences to their families and friends. We all know that no coastal community is immune to such tragedies. My home county of Donegal has seen its fair share of tragedies. However, the south east has been hit particularly hard in recent years. Yesterday's tragedy is but one in a long series of tragedies to hit Dunmore East and the Passage East areas of County Waterford. We all know, too, that fishing is a hazardous occupation and that fishermen put themselves at risk every day they go to work. While tragedies will always occur, more needs to be done to ensure the safety of fishermen. I understand that following the recent spate of tragedies, the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, in conjunction with Bord Iascaigh Mhara, undertook to examine the use of personal locator beacons by fishermen as an enhancement of existing safety measures. These devices are small transmitters worn as a watch or on a life jacket and provide the location of the person rather than the vessel. They can be of huge assistance in locating within a short period those who have gone overboard. I understand a series of recommendations on small boat safety have been forwarded by the Marine Casualty Investigation Board to the relevant agencies. What steps have been taken by the Department in this regard? Has progress been made in the provision of personal locator beacons and have the recommendations of the Marine Casualty Investigation Board been implemented?

The Tánaiste

As I said, everybody in the House shares the sense of grief and tragedy arising from the deaths of the Bolger brothers in the tragic fishing accident yesterday. The Deputy is correct that a tragedy such as this resonates strongly in coastal and fishing communities. I know this is a particular issue in County Donegal. Maritime search and rescue services in the south-east region are provided by a combination of Coast Guard search and boat units, Royal National Lifeboat Institution, RNLI, facilities based at Rosslare, Fethard-on-Sea, Kilmore Quay and Dunmore East and community rescue services designated as declared resources to the Irish Coast Guard. All of these services are supported by the Coast Guard and maritime helicopter services operated out of Waterford and reinforced as required by Coast Guard helicopters in Dublin, Shannon and Sligo. The upgrade of the helicopter service is ongoing. Only this week two of the replacement S-92 helicopters arrived in the country. All maritime emergency responses are co-ordinated by the three rescue co-ordination centres based at Malin, Valentia and Dublin, with the Dublin centre having specific responsibility for the south-east region. In the unfortunate event of a tragedy occurring, an investigation is conducted by the Marine Casualty Investigation Board. I am sure an investigation will take place in this case.

On the issue of small transmitters and how they can be used to assist in identifying the locations of people and contribute to safety, I understand the matter is under consideration. I will ask the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine to respond directly to the Deputy on the current status of the recommendations. I agree with the Deputy that we need to ensure the best available safety and prevention measures are in place to protect those who go to sea, which is hazardous, particularly so in a country with many small fishing ports where the weather can change quickly. It is important that every possible resource is available to preserve and protect life at sea.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Tánaiste as an cheist a fhreagairt. Last October, in response to a question by Senator David Cullinane, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine indicated that it was his intention that his Department would take measures with a view to making the provision of personal locator beacons mandatory under appropriate legislation. This was first signalled seven months previously. What progress has been made on the issue and is it still the Government's intention to make personal locator beacons mandatory under legislation as it indicated over a year ago?

These tragedies are happening far too often. Fishermen are finding it harder and harder to make a living and, as a result, put their lives at risk to support themselves and their families. We need to ensure the very best protections are available to support fishermen. While there is no doubt that they will not prevent all tragedies, personal locator beacons could be an essential step forward. This technology is reasonably cheap and a personal locator beacon can be purchased on the market for approximately €130 exempt of VAT. Anyone who has an iPhone will know that the Apple corporation has put a personal locator beacon in it because it values its product. We should give the same type of respect to our fishermen who go to sea and put their lives at risk to make a living for themselves and their families. Is it still the intention of the Government to make personal locator beacons mandatory? Is it the intention of the Government to assist fishermen with grant aid to purchase personal locator beacons as a wristwatches, neckwear or as part of a flotation device?

The Tánaiste

The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Simon Coveney, has already indicated his intention with regard to personal locator beacons. He has said that legislation is required to make the wearing and use of such technology mandatory. I will ask the Minister to respond to Deputy Doherty directly on the status of the legislation. Currently, there is sea fisheries legislation in preparation but I am not sure if it is the Minister's intention to include provision on personal locator beacons in it. The Government - Deputy Coveney, in particular - takes the issue of safety at sea very seriously and will act on whatever steps must be taken to improve safety at sea and prevent as far as humanly possible the loss of life at sea.

Deputy John Halligan

I offer my condolences to the family of the three hard-working young men who lost their lives off the coast of Tramore yesterday.

There have been a number of deeply disturbing reports over the last number of weeks of the level of abuse and intimidation Deputies are receiving from pro-life activists and the Catholic Church on the protection of maternal life Bill. Like many other Members, I have been subjected to abuse and have even had people come to my house after midnight. There have been several serious incidents of verbal abuse aimed at Deputies, some of whom have been ambushed outside their houses, spat at and threatened with having their homes burned down. One Deputy has been threatened with having her throat cut. Last week, Archbishop Diarmuid Martin called on the Government to do away with the whip. No doubt, the Tánaiste is aware of attempts by the church to compare his Government to a totalitarian regime. On Tuesday, Catholic bishops issued a statement claiming people were being misled on the debate and that the Government is not obliged to legislate on the X case. We now have senior Vatican officials calling on Deputies who might be Catholic to resign if they support the Bill.

Does the Tánaiste agree that here is an organisation that is non-democratic, anti-democratic, historically anti-woman and which has the most dreadful record on child protection? Does he agree that this organisation has no right to be the State's moral compass and is in no position to lecture anyone on human rights given its blood-stained history from pre-mediaeval times with crusades across Europe and the Middle East, its submission to and sufferance of the Nazi regime in war-torn Italy and the irreparable damage it has done to human beings, particularly children, internationally?

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy John Halligan

The irony is not lost on the public that Deputies who do not toe the line are being threatened with so-called excommunication. No such public threats were made to priests, bishops or anyone else within the Catholic Church convicted of abusing and destroying the lives of children. I call on the Tánaiste to condemn the Catholic Church for its attempts to intervene in the running of the State and to call on the church to desist from harassing Deputies who are already faced with the difficult task of making a decision on the legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy John Halligan

Can I finally say that no one has the right to threaten legislators in a democracy? Threatening Deputies to induce them to vote in a particular way must surely be illegal. Let me put this to the Tánaiste.

An Ceann Comhairle

No. The Deputy will not put anything else, please. He is over time.

Deputy John Halligan

If it emerged that a major criminal was attempting to bully Deputies on any issue, there would be a public outcry.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you.

Deputy John Halligan

Will the Tánaiste condemn the church, its cohort and minions in the pro-life group on their attempts continually to intimidate legislators who have been elected by the people to legislate in this Parliament?

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputies to respect the rules of the House. I am obliged to treat everybody fairly. When I ask people to stop, can they please stop? That applies to everybody.

Deputy John Halligan

Fianna Fáil got 15 minutes and I get two.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputies get the same as everybody else.

Deputy Finian McGrath

We do not. Fianna Fáil got 15 minutes. We timed it in the first slot.

The Tánaiste

I will not join the Deputy in condemning the Catholic Church or any other church. All churches and citizens have every right to state their points of view to Government on any issue of public importance. This is a democratic country and that applies to everybody. People have the right to state to their legislators their view, whether they are representatives of churches, the pro-life movement or have a private opinion and long may that continue. It is our job as legislators to legislate in a fair way on behalf of the entire people of the country. As legislators, we have a responsibility to hear the points of view that are being expressed, to respect them and to respectfully disagree if that is appropriate. While some of the statements which have been made by church leaders on the legislation are exaggerated, we should not in the House lose sight of what we are doing. Of course, I agree that when people make protests and express their points of view, it should be done respectfully. They should obviously not engage in the harassment of public representatives. I agree with the Deputy on that. However, we should not lose sight of the fact that this legislation is about protecting the lives of women in pregnancy.

The vast majority of the time, pregnancy and child birth are happy occasions, but there are a small number of cases in which a woman's life is at risk in pregnancy. It is the Government's settled view that, in those circumstances, we must legislate to provide clarity for women that their lives are safe, that they are safe in our hospitals and to provide clarity for the medical practitioners dealing with them. In some cases, a termination of pregnancy may be necessary to save the life of a mother. That is what the legislation is about and we should not get ourselves distracted by the nature of the campaigning, lobbying or engagement with public representatives. My personal view on the subject has been known for a very long time and over the years I have been subjected to some of the vigorous and sometimes overly vigorous campaigning on it.

We are public representatives and people can state their views passionately. Sometimes they may go overboard in the way they do it but as long as we are clear in our minds that our job is to legislate on behalf of the people and in the public interest, we will always be able to distinguish between the rights of people to express points of view, including points of view we do not agree with.

Deputy John Halligan

The bishops have every right to express their views on the proposed legislation but I will take up the Tánaiste on the terminology he used with respect to respectfully disagreeing. Many Deputies believe in the pro-choice approach or want to back the Government on the legislation but they are not respected by the pro-life crowd. The point I am making concerns when people come to our doors after midnight to intimidate and to threaten and when there is no utterance from the Catholic Church to condemn this intimidation. Some 75% of the people in Ireland agree with the legislation, no matter how flawed I or others think it is. This intimidation is still going on and it is not democracy. As legislators, we are elected to do what we think is right, irrespective of our disagreements with one other.

An Ceann Comhairle

Can we have Deputy Halligan's question please?

Deputy John Halligan

The Catholic Church, or any other church, has no right to interfere with how we legislate. It can have an opinion but that is different to interference, when obscene literature is being put through the door and we are being spat at-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I will not ask Deputy Halligan again. Will he put a question?

Deputy John Halligan

That is what I asked the Tánaiste to condemn, to condemn the non-utterance in the case of the pro-life mob intimidating Deputies and others.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Halligan is over time.

The Tánaiste

Anyone expressing a point of view to a public representative ought to do so respectfully and in a reasonable way. There have been occasions, not just on this issue, where the boundary between what is reasonable protest and reasonable expression of a point of view has been crossed. We know that and it should not happen. I urge people engaged in lobbying or protest activity to respect that. The formal Dáil debate on the legislation will begin this week. It is important the debate takes place in an atmosphere that is reasoned, reasonable and rational. None of us should crank up the temperature in the environment in which it is being debated. The issue has been discussed, particularly in this House, its committee and in the wider public, in a reasonable and rational way. I hope that continues. None of us should start throwing fuel on the fire to increase the heat. Let us remember what this is about. This is about protecting the lives of women in childbirth and pregnancy. The opinion poll to which Deputy Halligan refers reflects considerable public support and understanding of the necessity for legislators to legislate to provide certainty and clarity for women and their medical practitioners.