Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Jan 2014

Vol. 827 No. 2

Appointments to the Standards in Public Office Commission: Motions

Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Deputy Brendan Howlin)

I move:

That, pursuant to subsection (2A) (inserted by section 2 of the Standards in Public Office Act 2001 (No. 31 of 2001)), of section 21 of the Ethics in Public Office Act 1995 (No. 22 of 1995), Dáil Éireann recommends the appointment of Mr. Justice Daniel O’Keeffe, a former Judge of the High Court, by the President on the advice of the Government to be the chairperson of the Standards in Public Office Commission.

That, pursuant to subsection (2)(b)(v) (inserted by section 2 of the Standards in Public Office Act 2001 (No. 31 of 2001)), of section 21 of the Ethics in Public Office Act 1995 (No. 22 of 1995), Dáil Éireann approves the proposed appointment by the Government of Mr. Jim O’Keeffe (being a former member of Dáil Éireann and not being a member of the European Parliament) to be an ordinary member of the Standards in Public Office Commission.

I thank the House for the opportunity to debate these motions regarding the appointment of the chairperson and ordinary member of the Standards in Public Office Commission, SIPO.

The Standards in Public Office Commission was established under the Ethics in Public Office Act 1995, as amended by the Standards in Public Office Act 2001.

The standards commission supervises the operation of the ethics legislation, provides guidance and advice on compliance with it and investigates and reports on possible contraventions. The commission also has a supervisory role under the Electoral Acts in regard to political donations, reimbursement of election expenses and Exchequer funding of political parties and under the Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Act 2001 it has a supervisory role regarding payments to the leaders of political parties.

In response to the findings and recommendations of the final report of the Mahon tribunal, a project is being progressed by the Department to develop an integrated ethics Bill which will consolidate, modernise and simplify the existing legislative framework. The end result will be a much improved anti-corruption system in respect of ethics matters which will both control and regulate conflicts of interest in public life in Ireland. Substantial progress has been made to date on the project and development of draft heads of an integrated ethics Bill is well advanced. Further work and consultation with the Standards in Public Office Commission, the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and the Oireachtas on the proposed approach are necessary. I will shortly be bringing proposals to Government on the general scheme of an ethics Bill. I will update the Government on progress made on the new ethics framework, including implementation of the Mahon tribunal recommendations in that context.

The commission has six members. Four members are specified in the legislation, namely, the Comptroller and Auditor General, the Ombudsman and the Clerks of the Dáil and Seanad. The chairperson of the commission is appointed by the President on the advice of the Government following a resolution of each House of the Oireachtas. An ordinary member is appointed by the Government following a resolution of each House. It would be remiss of me not to mention the outgoing members of the commission. Mr. Justice Matthew Smith was appointed Chairman in 2001 while still a High Court judge and was reappointed for a second term in 2007, having retired as a judge at the end of 2004. He served the country well in this important role and I would like to take this opportunity to thank him and wish him well in his retirement. I also thank the former Minister, Mr. Michael Smith, who served as an ordinary member since December 2007.

The legislation requires that the chairperson of the commission be a judge or a former judge of the Supreme Court or the High Court. I am very pleased that Mr. Justice Daniel O'Keeffe, who retired from the High Court in 2008, has agreed to be nominated for appointment by the President as chairman of the commission. He is highly qualified and has extensive experience in statutory and corporate governance matters. When the standards commission was being set up in 2001, a provision for appointing a former Oireachtas Member was introduced following a recommendation by the Dáil Select Committee on Members' Interests. This recognises that the commission needs not only legal and administrative expertise but also the expertise that comes from service as a public representative. The Government is, therefore, very pleased that Mr. Jim O'Keeffe, who has long experience both as a Member of the Dáil and as a Minister of State, has agreed to be nominated for appointment by the Government as an ordinary member of the commission. Having worked with Jim on constitutional and law reform matters, I am sure his personal qualities and experience will be of great value to the commission.

These appointments are an important measure in ensuring that the commission can continue its work and I have no hesitation in asking the House to approve the appointment by the President of Mr. Justice Daniel O'Keeffe as chairman of the Standards in Public Office Commission and the appointment by the Government of Mr. Jim O'Keeffe as ordinary member of the commission.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I support the proposal to appoint Mr. Justice Daniel O'Keeffe as chairperson of the Standards in Public Office Commission and the former Member, Mr. Jim O'Keeffe from Cork South-Central, as an ordinary member of the commission. I know Mr. Jim O'Keeffe as a man of absolute integrity and I think everybody will be happy with his appointment. I cannot speak personally about Mr. Justice Daniel O'Keeffe but his name does not spring to mind for any particular problem and, as a former High Court judge, I am sure he is a man of good repute.

The Standards in Public Office Commission currently deals with the ethics legislation, the Electoral Acts in regard to donations and the leaders' allowance, in respect of which legislation is forthcoming, and it will have a new role in auditing the allowances for Independent Members of both Houses. I do not think the public are fully aware that Independent Senators receive what is colloquially known as a leader's allowance. It was one of our best kept secrets but it will be dealt with under the new legislation, which we support.

It was reported recently that the commission wants access to all party records not just those of head offices. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government has one role in this, while the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform has another. I understand certain branches of Fine Gael received €30,000 in donations in a particular year and that the money was kept in their accounts rather than going through head office. The commission has complained that it cannot get access to these accounts. Other parties in this House receive considerable amounts in funding from outside this State, including from across the ocean. I do not believe politics in Ireland should be paid for by people who are not resident here and on the register of voters in Ireland, irrespective of whether they are former friends in Russia or current friends in the United States. As a democracy, political parties should be funded by the people who live in Ireland. I take the black and white view that people from other continents should not fund what happens in this House. The fundamental principle is that people should be able to know who is providing funds to political parties.

Mr. Liam Kavanagh, Mr. Michael Smith and Mr. Jim Keeffe are former Members of this House. As such, they bring pragmatism and practical experience to the commission. Some of the members of the commission whom I met previously did not really realise what politics is like on the ground. They did not understand why we would put ourselves to all that trouble or allow constituents to contact us at the weekend. I am pleased, therefore, that a former politician is being appointed to bring practical experience to the commission.

However, I wish to raise something that the Minister appears to have overlooked. The chairperson of the commission and the ordinary member will be men. The Comptroller and Auditor General and the Ombudsman are men. The Clerk of the Seanad is a lady. I do not know who is representing the Clerk of the Dáil on the commission given that a vacancy currently exists for that position. If someone is temporarily filling that position, what mechanism was used to allow this to happen? Of the six members of the board as currently constituted, one at most is a woman. It is not gender balanced. I support the Minister's nominations but I ask him to think about this issue for future reference. We want to attract more women into public life but the body overseeing standards, ethics, donations and transparency in public life is male dominated. Perhaps it is an accident but I ask the Minister to consider the issue with a view to addressing it in some way in the future.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I welcome the proposed appointments to the board of the Standards in Public Office Commission. It is, however, unfortunate that the Minister did not ensure the appointments were made in a more timely manner. As people will recall, it emerged just days before Christmas that the commission would not be able to advance current investigations or initiate new ones without its full complement of board members. Two of the positions became vacant in early December.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

No, late December.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is astonishing that the Government failed to seek replacements in advance of the previous board members' departure in light of the type of work in which it engages. We all agree that SIPO is one of the vital checks and balances to this institution and as such it is important that the Government not only supports its work but is seen to do so.

Appointments to the board of the commission are made by the Oireachtas, as the Minister stated, on the Minister's recommendation. This failure to appoint the new board members in a timely manner resulted in headlines which feed into a public mistrust of politics and politicians. I understand that we cannot control the headlines but in this instance, the Minister was the instigator and author of this bad press. The appointments should have come before the Dáil in advance of the Christmas recess-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

On what date?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

-----or when the controversy arose the Minister could have given a commitment that the issue would be dealt with on the first day back. Instead, the Government was cranky on the issue. The Minister seems to be a little cranky still. Whether this was intended or not, the message went out that politicians took a view that if SIPO's work was delayed or hindered, it was really no big deal. That is not a helpful message to go into the public domain.

There is also an undercurrent or a sense that there is a strange relationship between the Government and SIPO at present and this was underpinned by the public spat regarding local party funding disclosures. It is one matter whether there was a difference of opinion which arose between the Minister, in particular, and SIPO and Government, but the Government's response to this issue was unnecessarily defensive and, as I stated, did the body politic no favours.

The Minister made reference to the appointment of a former Member of the Oireachtas to the board. I understand the rationale and the current legislative provisions in respect of that, but it is something that needs to be revisited. I am not convinced that it is necessary to have a former Oireachtas Member as part of this and I am not sure that it is entirely helpful. As we engage in the debate the Minister outlined, we should go back to that issue.

On the appointment of the chair, in particular, I warmly welcome the proposed appointment of retired High Court judge, Mr. Justice Daniel O'Keeffe. I wish him well and every success in his new position. I would extend those sentiments to Mr. Jim O'Keeffe who, notwithstanding my reservations on the role of former Oireachtas Members in SIPO, I also wish all the best.

Finally, merely for the purposes of clarity, it is not possible for moneys raised thar sáile to fund political activity in this jurisdiction. In fact, the guidelines are strict. I understand that Deputy Sean Fleming's musings as regards the United States were clearly sent in my direction and I want to assure him of that position, that the reporting requirements stateside are extremely rigorous and the rules and regulations in this jurisdiction are extremely tight.

I would say to his party that I am aware that there were efforts made by Fianna Fáil to instigate fund-raising in the United States which did not go terribly well and I am not sure whether that is the real motivation for the Deputy raising the issue. I am curious to know who is fund-raising in Russia.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Intrigue.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

If Deputy Fleming or the Minister have any information on that, they might share it with the House.

I wish both Mr. Justice Daniel O'Keeffe and Mr. Jim O'Keeffe all the very best in their appointments.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I welcome the making of these appointments. SIPO must now be at its full strength and the media focus before Christmas drew strong attention to that. A lesson should be learned for the next time when there will be replacements that it will be done in a more timely way.

I welcome the Minister's statement that there will be more work done in this area because where politics is funded from is incredibly important. We need only look at what has happened in this country to realise that.

On the issue of a former politician being a member of SIPO, there are pluses and minuses in that regard. Whereas he or she may well bring expertise, it certainly is coming from the established political parties. From 2002 to 2012, the years for which I have figures, not one single solitary donation has been disclosed by Fine Gael. The Labour Party disclosed figures in three years, Fianna Fáil did so in five or six years, and Sinn Féin did so every year. It is not believable that there are not donations, particularly in years where there are elections. That kind of practice undermines considerably the confidence in the governance required on the area of ethics. There are large sums expended in this country under the Electoral Acts for the large political parties where the funding comes from the taxpayer, but there is this other income as well which it is not possible to stand over.

It is not only political parties that are funded. I made a complaint to SIPO last year around the time of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013 about a number of groups which had not registered as third parties. It is really a big gap that needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency because there were obviously large sums of money being spent with vehicles driving around with advertising hoardings, etc. In reply, SIPO stated that, in relation to the five groups mentioned, the Pro Life Campaign is registered as a third party, that Life House Ireland is not registered and that SIPO contacted it recently and asked it to consider if it required to register. SIPO continued:

In relation to the other 3 groups, Youth Defence, The Life Institute and Family and Life, they are not registered as third parties with the Standards Commission. In this regard the Standards Commission has been in correspondence with all of them and asked them to consider whether they are required to register as a third party. All eventually responded and stated that they do not have a requirement to register as a third party. The Standards Commission remains firmly of the view that the activities of these groups comes within the definition of political purposes and that they are required to register as a third party.

All that SIPO could do was write and warn them. The fact that there was no sanction, at a time when there was an important debate going on, there was a great deal of money being spent on that debate on one side which was not being declared and we did not know who was interested, draws attention to the kind of shortcomings there are, and with which we must deal.

I echo the point made that it is quite fragmented. I understand to an extent why that is so - in the case of elections, the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government will have a responsibility for local government elections - but a more consolidated approach would be better where there would be one point where decisions are made and where the legislation covers all of this.

While I welcome, and certainly do not dispute, the appointment of Mr. Jim O'Keeffe, with whom I was a Member in this House some years ago and who is a capable and honourable man, I raise a major question mark over having somebody who is a former Member as a member of the Standards in Public Office Commission. Despite the fact he or she may hold some information that can be useful, on balance that may well present other problems as well. Those of us who would be non-aligned would certainly feel that we may well have a different viewpoint which will never really come to the fore.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call the Minister, Deputy Howlin, to reply.

Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Deputy Brendan Howlin)

I did not realise that I had a right of reply and I did not take up my notes. I want to make a few points. On the general point about gender balance made by Deputy Fleming, I am obviously mindful of that in terms of State appointments, but since four of the six are by definition ex officio, I cannot demand under equality legislation that the Ombudsman be a woman or that the Clerk of the Dáil or the Comptroller and Auditor General be a woman. Everybody is entitled to apply for those particular jobs. The outgoing Ombudsman was a woman and the current one is a man; that is the way it works. We are now improving the likelihood of a former judge being a woman because we have appointed a number of female High Court judges in our term of office, thereby greatly increasing the number, and we have also increased the number of female Supreme Court judges. When we came into office there was only one and that judge had been appointed by us the last time we were in office. Therefore, we have increased the gender balance significantly.

On the general charge made by two Deputies that there was some tardiness in the appointment, we must have a little bit of respect for senior office holders. It would have been quite wrong to announce an appointment before somebody's term of office had been completed. I heard on a radio programme criticism of the fact that we had not appointed a replacement on the Sunday after the term of office had ended on a Friday. One single working day had not expired and there was a complaint, but that was odd, and it was the week before Christmas. There are the normal procedures of having to bring a proposal to Cabinet and ensure there is consent from the people involved, and then I wanted an opportunity to have a conversation to at least inform representatives of the Opposition before I tabled a resolution. Based on these considerations, I believe it was done extremely expeditiously. I wonder at the motivation of whoever decided it was a news story at the end of last year.

The Standards in Public Office Commission is a very important organisation and part of a suite of legislation we brought in to achieve much greater transparency. I take on board many of the points made by the Deputies opposite. We need to have clarity in regard to how politics works and who funds it, and expenditure limits so that we cannot buy votes. In jurisdictions such as the United States people are in permanent fund-raising mode and one's capacity to raise money determines one's ability to stand for public office. We should never be in that space.

One of our responses as a Government and as a Department to the Mahon report and other reports was that we would examine root and branch the overarching legislative provision for ethics, because it is layered, and see if we could consolidate it in a more useable way. We can address some of the issues raised by Deputies opposite in that discourse. I am not sure if one of the Deputies has a formed view on the inclusion of a former Oireachtas Member. That came from a recommendation of this House on an all-party basis for the very reason cited by Deputy Fleming. One needs to have a practical understanding of politics. One would not have a group overseeing doctors in the medical profession without having a doctor involved. We must have somebody with practical experience. One would not establish a teaching council without having a teacher involved. Somebody has to understand the nuts and bolts of it and be able to say "It does not work like that; this is how it works." I thought it was a good recommendation that we should maintain, but we can debate these matters in the future.

I welcome the support across the House from all parties and from Independents for the two nominees and I look forward to working closely with the existing SIPO in the challenging and demanding work that it has before it.

Question put and agreed to.