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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Feb 2014

Vol. 832 No. 2

Post Office Network: Motion (Resumed) [Private Members]

The following motion was moved by Deputy Seamus Healy on Tuesday, 25 February 2014:
That Dáil Éireann:
recognises:
— that the post office network is a unique social, cultural and financial institution that is essential to our local communities and the country as a whole;
— the vital contribution the post office network makes to the economy;
— the fact that the post office network employs over 3,000 people throughout Ireland;
— that the post office network is the backbone of both rural and urban communities;
— that, as they stand, the Department of Social Protection’s plans for the electronic transfer of social welfare payments poses a serious threat to the future of the post office network;
— that without the income derived from the Department of Social Protection and the National Treasury Management Agency’s contracts, the post office network will be destabilised in terms of its viability; and
— that it will directly cause a reduction in cash payments at post offices which will ultimately lead to many closures and job losses throughout the country;
acknowledges:
— the specific commitment in the programme for Government to ensure the sustainability of the post office network;
— the party wide acknowledgement of all elected representatives that the network provides a vital national strategic asset;
— that the key to the continued sustainability of the post office network is that An Post be equipped, through the provision of a full banking infrastructure operated by An Post, that will enable the network to facilitate the Department of Social Protection strategy to move to e-payments; and
— that the 18% of Irish people who are unbanked and the 23% who are not online rely solely on the post office network’s services; and
calls on the Government to:
— produce a comprehensive action plan, setting out the measures to deliver on its strategy, and commit to complete the action plan within three months of the date of this motion;
— instruct each Government Department to implement, through the post office network, the business identified in the Grant Thornton and Joint Committee on Transport and Communications reports to underpin the sustainability of the post office network;
— commit that all tenders involving over the counter transactions will be decided on the basis of both social and economic policy;
— commit to implementing a new banking service that will be available through the post office network and operated by An Post;
— commit to a one-off capital investment fund for the further modernisation of the post office network to enable the widespread provision of banking facilities in rural and disadvantaged areas; and
— commit to reporting on the progress made on the implementation of the plan within six months of its publication.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:
"recognises:
— that the post office network is:
— a unique social, cultural and financial institution that is essential to our local communities and the country as a whole; and
— the largest retail network in Ireland - with 1,147 outlets nationwide - and employs over 3,000 people;
— the role of postmasters in delivering an important economic service to their communities; and
— the commitment in the programme for Government to ensure the sustainability of the post office network and the cross-party acknowledgement that the network provides a vital national strategic asset;
acknowledges:
— the continued and irreversible decline in the volume of mail - a 25% reduction over the past five years;
— that the post office network is subject to competition law and the public service is subject to public procurement law;
— the challenges being experienced by the post office network, especially in rural areas, given the changing face of the retail sector with the advancement of e-commerce and the digital economy;
— the suitability of the post office network for over-the-counter transactional business;
— the importance of such over-the-counter services in facilitating cash management by lower-income households;
— the success of the post offices in winning significant new business volumes in recent years, most particularly in the financial services and payment areas;
— the role of An Post, as a commercial State company, to provide a nationwide retail network of economically sustainable post offices and the operational responsibility of the company in this regard; and
— the input of the reports commissioned by the Irish Postmasters' Union as well as the report of the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications on promoting opportunities regarding the future sustainability of the network;
endorses a whole-of-government consideration, encompassing central and local government and the wider public service, of the nature and extent of services that can be provided to the public using the post office network as a "front office of government"; and
encourages all public sector stakeholders to achieve the objective of securing opportunities for new business and maintaining the post office network at the heart of national and local community life."
(Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Pat Rabbitte)

Deputy Adams is sharing time with Deputies Pádraig Mac Lochlainn and Brian Stanley.

The post office network is hugely important to the life of rural Ireland and to many citizens living in urban areas. This is as true in my own constituency of Louth as it is everywhere else in this State. The closure of Garda stations, local post offices and the transport systems, as well as the shutting down of rural schools, is tearing the heart out of rural communities. Economic collapse and austerity are forcing a whole generation of young people to emigrate and this is having a devastating effect on the social fabric of rural Ireland in particular but also in many urban areas, although in rural parishes it is much more obvious and visible. There has been an increase in isolation, loneliness and suicide rates. There is a real risk that this situation could continue to deteriorate.

The Grant Thornton report suggests that up to 557 post offices out of 1,150 face possible closure with devastating effects. I commend all those who provide our post office service, some of whom are here in the Visitors Gallery. I commend the postmistresses and postmasters who have shown remarkable resilience. They provide essential public services as well as a vital social hub for local people, particularly those who may be isolated. The Government needs to bring forward a coherent, properly resourced strategy with firm proposals to secure the future of the post offices and the 3,000 citizens who are employed in them.

The programme for Government promises to ensure that the network of post offices around the State is maintained and that communities have access to adequate local postal services. I would like to think that the Government will keep this election promise and that the Minister will ensure that it is honoured. I ask all Deputies to support this motion.

I am here as a representative of the people of Donegal just as all of us represent our communities. I will report on the post office situation in Donegal. In Greencastle, at the very top of the Inishowen peninsula, the postmaster, Cyril Gormley, sadly passed away. Very soon afterwards, An Post questioned the future of the postal service that his son wanted to continue. It was very insensitive at the time and the community was very aggrieved. A public meeting was held in Greencastle which was attended by a large turnout. The community made the case for the post office and it has been awarded a one-year reprieve. This is not good enough. They have no certainty about the future of their vital post office. In Carrigart a packed public meeting showed how much their post office means to the community. They sent a signal to all of us that we need to protect these vital rural services. I attended a public meeting in Gleneely in north Inishowen. The postmaster is retiring and the community does not know where it stands. The people are looking to see whether they can pull together and they will be forced to make a business case for what is a public service that should be fundamental for any rural community. This is not acceptable. Bunbeg in west Donegal has had a post office since the late 1800s. The postmistress is retiring and An Post has received a large number of submissions requesting the retention of the post office, but the community does not know what will happen. If the post office closes in Bunbeg, it will be the fourth post office closure in that parish in the past ten years. When the AIB branch closed in that parish the people were told by the Government of the time not to worry because the banking services would be provided by the post office. These are just a few examples of which there are many more from my county alone of how much the postal network means.

The Minister has said that the social welfare contract is retained and there is no concern at this time. The postmasters and postmistresses and the communities supporting them want to know what is the Minister's plan for the future sustainability of our post office network. How can we be sure that we will not have to compete with supermarkets in big towns? How can rural communities compete because Tesco or SuperValu will not come to small rural towns? Will people have to go to regional bases?

I want the Minister to tell the House about his plan for the long-term sustainability of our post office network, of our rural communities who are clinging to the last vestiges of their services. That is my report from Donegal and I am sure other Deputies will give him reports from their counties. I hope that at the conclusion of this debate, the Minister will give a cast-iron guarantee that he will implement a plan for the sustainability of our post office networks, a retention of the social welfare contract and search for other business opportunities such as banking which the post office network can offer.

Like previous speakers I express my support for the motion. The post offices perform a vital function across a wide range of areas and provide a focal point for rural communities; indeed, in some rural communities, the post office is the only focal point. I note that Fianna Fáil has belatedly converted to the notion that the post office system needs to be protected and enhanced. The party published a document yesterday - a copy and paste document - but I welcome it, nevertheless. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. However, it should be borne in mind that while Sinn Féin and the members of the Technical Group have consistently defended the post offices, the previous Government closed almost 100 post offices. The Fianna Fáil document refers to 211 closures between 2006 and 2012 but it does not mention that the party was in power during that period.

Deputy Stanley's party-----

Copy and paste, Deputy Dooley. A large number of post offices have closed in County Laois, in Ballyroan, Castletown, Timahoe, the Heath, Ballaghmore and Emo. These closures have removed a vital local service and struck at the heart of those communities. Apart from the practical issues involved such as the need to travel elsewhere to conduct business, closures are regarded as another step towards running down our villages and communities when we should be doing the opposite. In common with the Technical Group, Sinn Féin demands that the current services, such as social welfare payments, continue to be provided and that services be expanded and developed. Social protection payments must be retained by the post office. As the motion states, a significant number of people do not have a bank account. Several of my constituents do not have bank accounts. Almost 25% of the population has no access to the Internet and in rural areas among the elderly group who use the post office that figure would be far higher. The reverse is probably the case in that 75% of those people have no access to the Internet or to computers. I argue in favour of giving post offices more responsibility for services such as motor tax renewal and commercial rates, rent payments and many other local government and government services.

I appeal to the Minister to ask his Cabinet colleagues what other services could be farmed out to this vital local service. The Minister will give his answer in his concluding remarks but I ask him to go the extra mile and consider what extra services can be offered in the post office network. Some rural areas do not have ATM services. Many post offices could provide banking services on an agency basis. If some of our proposals and those of others were used, they could revitalise the post office services and this in turn would be significant in re-invigorating villages and small towns. I was in Ballinakill the other evening and I can see the importance of the post office as a hub of activity. We must try to build on that hub and ensure that post offices are kept not for the sake of it, but as a vital part of the local economy and to ensure the future of our villages and towns.

I ask Deputies to leave party politics aside and to support this motion. How can the Government vote against having a plan? We have heard all the talk about looking after rural Ireland and rural development. Here is the one single act that this Government can do during its term to breathe life back into small towns and villages such as some of the places I have named. We need that plan and I ask Deputies not to vote against it.

There are 13 Government Members proposing to share time. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate about the sustainability of An Post. I thank the Technical Group for bringing the motion before the House. I recently tabled a Topical Issue matter in which I discussed the change that is required imminently to secure the viability of the post office network. The main point I made was that following the announcement by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, of a new reform package, an essential element of which is the availability of a standard bank account for every citizen, An Post should immediately be given a banking licence and thereby enabled to roll out that service to the 30% of the population who do not do business with banks and would consider their local post office the natural place in which to carry out such financial transactions. I also pointed out that in addition to this cohort of potential customers, there are other opportunities arising out of the policy of mainstream banks to close branches. AIB, for example, already provides a limited but useful service in some post offices where branches have been closed. Other banks should be encouraged to do likewise.

The recent awarding of the social welfare contract to An Post is welcome. However, the Department of Social Protection seems to be doing everything possible to encourage social welfare recipients to transfer to banks. In correspondence received by the Department, recipients are constantly asked for their bank details, with an indication that if such details are not forthcoming, their payments may be disrupted. If Government policy is to help post offices to stay open, particularly in rural areas, then there is an obligation on all Departments and State agencies to comply fully with that policy. An Post is a wholly-owned State company and, as such, it should not only be implementing Government policy but constantly looking for ways actively to promote it. I was in contact recently with An Post to ask what progress has been made in setting up a banking structure. While I did receive a reply, I did not detect any real urgency on the company's part in this regard.

The question must be asked as to how An Post failed to win the tender for the processing of driving licences. It seems inconceivable that an organisation like this, with an established network of offices and staff, could be outbid by an organisation that had no source office or staff to do the job. It is also hard to understand why the tender was designed in such a way as to confine the number of offices to 34 to serve the entire country when An Post would have been able to provide almost 1,100 such offices. Any decision made by the Government or by individual Departments should take into account the overarching policy decision to keep the post offices open.

An Post should be encouraged to examine innovative ways of providing new and profitable services by using the enormous asset it has in the post office network. People in decision-making positions must fulfil their democratic responsibility to adhere to Government policy. I am not at all sure, however, that some of them realise the consequences of the enforced closure of post offices. As it stands, many of them are on the edge.

I conclude by highlighting the potential for fraud prevention that may follow from encouraging more people to have their social welfare payments done through the post office. Where such payments are processed by banks, they can be accessed from anywhere in the world. In many cases, those payments are going to people who, for one reason or another, are no longer entitled to them. The cost of this to the Exchequer is evident. Last year, An Post returned €7 million in unclaimed payments to the Department of Social Protection while the banks did not return a single cent. Assuming the same level of fraud among bank customers as among post office customers, that suggests a loss of €7 million to the State.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate and commend Deputy Seamus Healy on his foresight in tabling this motion. I thank my Government colleague, Deputy Eamonn Maloney, who is unavoidably absent, for giving me his time. Setting aside the motion and the amendment, there is an opportunity to harness the goodwill that exists to deliver a viable future for the post office network. The ideas coming forward in this debate are worth taking on board in that context.

The renewal of the social welfare contract, worth €9 billion in 2014 via 40 million transactions, is perhaps the most significant source of revenue for An Post and, as such, is very welcome. However, while signing the contract is important, it is equally important to ensure neither An Post, by virtue of reductions in the fee per transaction to individual postmasters, nor the Department of Social Protection is allowed to diminish in any way our commitment to the post office network by encouraging social welfare recipients to choose an alternative form of payment. That requires administrative vigilance and I hope the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, will follow up on the issue.

To be clear, there is no Government agenda to close the post office network. My colleague, Deputy Michael Moynihan, referred last night to Mweelin and Ballingeary in my own constituency. Those closures are undoubtedly a setback for the communities concerned. However, an examination of the statistics is interesting. We see, for example, that between 2006 and 2010, 197 post offices closed, but there have been only 17 closures in recent years. That is 17 too many, but it certainly does not represent an acceleration in closures under the Government. In fact, it is to the credit of this Administration that the programme for Government includes a commitment to safeguarding the viability of post offices. The social welfare contract is an important element of that endeavour, but it is not the only area in which action can and has been taken. To the Sinn Féin Members who have spoken about supporting the post office network, I would suggest that they encourage their supporters to pay the property tax through the post office network. Banks such as AIB have taken steps to allow people to conduct transactions through post offices. Bill payments, passport applications, Garda fines and gun licence applications can all be transacted through the post office.

My final point may be somewhat controversial in that it highlights the onus on communities to play their part in securing the viability of local post offices. In my constituency office I help people fill out social welfare application forms and it is disappointing to see a substantial number of them opt to have their payments go to a post office other than their immediately local office. I have been on the front line at a public meeting where there was a great deal of anger about the closure of Ballingeary post office, yet many of the people articulating that anger did not conduct their transactions in their local post offices. The Government has a significant role to play, but communities also can do a great deal. We must harness our efforts at both ends to ensure the network survives and prospers into the future.

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on this important issue. Like the other speakers on both sides of the House, I fully support the post office network and the service it provides, particularly in constituencies like my own which are primarily rural. The Minister referred to the economic profile aspect of this, but we also must bear in mind the social element. In many small towns and villages the local post office is in a row alongside the local butcher, grocer and hardware store. They are all inextricably linked and many people who come in to use one service will also use some or all of the others. If we take one out, there could potentially be damage to the others.

I welcome the Minister's reference to a whole-of-government approach to these issues and the establishment of a sub-committee to oversee that. Can he give us a timeline for when that sub-committee will begin its work and thereafter bring forward proposals? My understanding from meeting with postmasters in the past week is that they see their future being based in large part around what is contained in the Grant Thornton report. it is not unreasonable that we would take on board some of their concerns in this regard.

Other speakers referred to the importance to An Post of the social welfare contract. As we have seen, however, there seems to be a difficulty in that people are effectively being encouraged to move their payments away from the post office and into the banks. That is an issue of serious concern which should be addressed without delay. There certainly is potential for the development of an enhanced offering by post offices in terms of banking services. Many banks are leaving rural communities and, where they do so, they should be leaving their services behind in the post offices.

Like other speakers, I fully support the post office network, but the reality is that I do not use it enough. How many Deputies in this Chamber would have to admit to the same? How many members of the public are in the same situation? We all understand how useful and important local post offices are to communities, but we simply are not using them enough. The Government has a major part to play in planning for the future viability of the post office network, but there also must be a commitment by communities to use their post offices. We must all work together to implement the recommendations set out in the Grant Thornton report.

I welcome the opportunity to make a contribution, although two minutes is hardly sufficient for all the points I wish to raise. No one has to remind me of how vital our post office network is to communities. I see it daily in the rural area in which I live. In fact, the post office is one of the critical building blocks of our communities.

It is where people do their personal business and meet and greet one another. It is of vital importance for small, rural, isolated communities that have no public transport. It provides a service for elderly people, who are so often forgotten in modern society now, for those who cannot find employment and for members of society in general. We simply cannot do without this service in rural Ireland.

Like all companies, An Post has faced many challenges in recent times. We should be able to examine those challenges together. An Post cannot rely solely on Government business. It must be able to look at securing new revenue streams based on services that could be offered, for example in areas like passport applications, local property tax payments and banking facilities. Post offices can do much more. It has been estimated that if An Post were given the power to issue motor tax certificates, it could save the Exchequer more than €60 million over five years.

I was glad to hear my coalition colleague say the Government does not have an agenda of deliberately closing post offices. As a Deputy for Carlow-Kilkenny, I am fully committed to the post office network. I am glad to put it on the Dáil record that I am behind our post offices. I have to say from this side of the House that the Labour Party has been extremely conscious of the needs of the post office network. I look forward to seeing what our Fine Gael Ministers will bring to the table to ensure there is a sustainable post office network into the future.

Is there a split?

The Deputy is obviously supporting the motion.

I am delighted to have an opportunity to speak on this important motion. When postmasters in my local area started to contact me to raise concerns about this matter, I thought I had missed something like an announcement of post office closures. I am conscious of the absolute devastation that would be caused in villages like Narraghmore and Ballitore in my close-knit community of south Kildare if there were to be losses from the post office network. I congratulate the Irish Postmasters' Union on its well-organised and effective campaign. As Deputy Connaughton said, it has made us all more aware. Sometimes one does not appreciate something until it has gone. If we do not look after our post office network, the potential will exist for decisions to be made that indirectly lead to the closure of post offices. By the time we realise that, it might be too late.

While this is a worthwhile debate, it must be recognised as part of the discussion that post offices are not closing. We need to focus on measures to ensure post offices do not close in the future. The previous Government presided over 197 post office closures over a four-year period from 2006 to 2010. Just 17 post offices have closed since 2010, which is a demonstration of the commitment of the Government and the Minister to the post office network. An Post also has a responsibility in this regard. At a time when banks are moving towards online activity and getting away from interfacing with customers, it is important for An Post not to follow the herd mentality by focusing on the online option. I suggest it should realise that its greatest strengths are its network throughout the country and its people. The postmasters in the various post offices have the experience to provide a niche service. This makes it possible for An Post to fight for new business. Plenty of possible areas of new business, such as motor tax, have been mentioned during this debate. The Government has a role to play. The public must play its part by using post office services. We have to recognise the need for openness and transparency in tendering for these things. The An Post network is working together with the Government on the formation of this new group. I welcome the effective work the Government social policy committee is doing.

The motion before the House is very important.

(Interruptions).

There is a phone going off somewhere.

That is not my phone.

This place is bugged.

It is important for us to discuss the salient points raised in the motion, which I acknowledge. A number of points are worth making. One would be forgiven for thinking that a widescale shutdown of the post office network had been announced. Nothing could be further from the truth. It must be acknowledged that one of the most significant developments for our vital postal service in recent times was the clear commitment to the sustainability of the post office network outlined in the programme for Government, which was agreed by both Government parties rather than being drawn up by the Labour Party or by Fine Gael on its own. The report that was commissioned by Grant Thornton is based on the loss of the social welfare contract.

On 22 December last, a contract was signed for its renewal. That is the basis on which we need to operate in considering the motion before the House. This significant contract was a big win for the post office network in every respect. It was a big win for rural Ireland, in particular. Deputy Creed was dead right to outline what it was worth in financial terms. The retention of the 40 million social welfare transactions that are carried out through the post office network each year was a significant lifeline for the network. The approach that is taken must, invariably and undoubtedly, be based on a number of challenges. Reference has already been made in this debate to the possibility of a standard bank account being offered by An Post and the Irish League of Credit Unions as a joint venture. A significant report that was drawn up by the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications set out the challenges that exist and the opportunities that can be availed of. Everyone in this House is committed to the viability and sustainability of the post office network. My colleagues on this side of the House have set out some salient facts and figures that are worth bearing in mind during this debate.

This societal matter concerns urban and rural Deputies from all parties. I believe the problem that is developing in this area results to a large degree from changes in the modern economy. The post office network, which operates in urban and rural Ireland, has traditionally been very well respected and still is. I have met postmasters who have told me clearly, in no uncertain terms, that they are facing serious financial challenges. This is essentially about survival from a business perspective if these people are to keep operating on the ground. I do not think any Government, regardless of its colours, should allow them to stop operating. In the past, we have seen great losses in traditional areas of activity in this country. I refer to the closure of railway lines and Eircom networks. Such closures are regretted to this day. We cannot allow further closures to take place in this sector.

There is no doubt that technological advances have led to real challenges in this area. We all know the difference between e-mail and "snail mail", or post. Features of e-commerce like electronic financial transfers are now a commercial reality. They are not going to go away. In my opinion, their use is only going to increase. What can we do about this reality? How can we respond to it? That is where the challenge lies.

I suggest that a three-pronged approach across Government Departments is needed. It must be accompanied by a real determination within An Post to review its business model and try to attract new business into the post office network. The citizens of this country - An Post's customers - also have a responsibility in this regard. I challenge everyone, including myself, to examine how much business we are sending away from post offices. We might be doing it inadvertently or unknowingly. We all need to take stock and check what we are doing. This debate offers us a good opportunity to feed into the process of reviewing how we do business. We are familiar with the need to support local shops. If one supports the multinationals rather than the local shop, the local shop will close. This is no different.

I welcome the Minister's statement last night that he intends to get the Cabinet sub-committee to review and analyse how the post office network can be given more support across Departments. I think that is essential. The key and the nub of the issue is whether we place a social value on this network. If we do, we need to move away from the mentality of Departments spending money in silos. If a social element is not included in the budget of each Department, accountants and financial administrators will automatically be able to impose cuts on any part of the budget that suits them. This problem is where the nub of the issue lies.

I would like to conclude by focusing on three areas. Is An Post committed to retaining this network? That is a challenge for An Post. Do the people of Ireland want to support the post office network? That is a challenge for everyone, including public representatives. Government Deputies, including backbenchers, must work with the Minister to ask the various Departments and the leading Ministers to review how they do their business.

Perhaps the Deputy should vote for the motion.

Like my constituency colleague, Deputy Coffey, I know people who recently went through the trauma of losing their local post office. I refer to the closure of the post office in Kill, County Waterford.

The big concern at the time was that the shop would close and that then the heart of the community would also be lost, which has come to pass. The concern of every Deputy and every member of the public is that over time as business diminishes from post offices, the business of shops surrounding it in the village or town also diminishes.

It is worth reminding Deputies on all sides of the House of the two Ministers who put the most business through the post office network at the moment, the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Gilmore, through the passport service and the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton. Along with my colleague, Deputy Ann Phelan, I put the challenge to other Ministers. I welcome the announcement last night by the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Rabbitte, of a whole-of-government consideration, encompassing central and local government and the wider public service, of the nature and extent of services that can be provided to the public using the post office network as a front office of government.

I see that as a challenge for the Ministers who are not currently putting business through the post office network. I point that out to my Fine Gael colleagues, who sought to lay the blame solely at the Minister's feet. The Ministers who are making it a viable network are two Labour Ministers, Deputies Gilmore and Burton.

I welcome the opportunity to speak. I was very pleased to hear the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, confirm last night that the Government has no programme in place to close our post offices. Indeed the Government is ensuring that the post office network is positioned to maintain its vital economic and social importance to our local communities. I welcome the many post office workers who have come to Dublin this evening, including many who have travelled long distances from my constituency in Clare.

We will not make the same mistakes of the previous Government, which failed to address the real economic challenges facing our post offices. It was a bit hypocritical of my constituency colleague, Deputy Dooley, to say he was shocked at the Government's lack of support for post offices given that his party in government sat idly by, as other speakers have said, and allowed 197 post offices to close between 2006 and 2010.

Two thirds of our post offices are in small towns and villages. The post office network is the link that binds our communities together - often the only point of contact for people who live in isolation. That is why I campaigned vigorously in the past for post offices to be retained in Corofin and Broadford in County Clare when their futures were threatened. That is why I want the maximum number of post offices maintained in local communities in County Clare.

Given the fast-changing retail and technological age in which we live where consumers, especially younger consumers, are no longer reliant on the post office but on the iPhone which is the main means for doing business, An Post needs to reshape its network to meet the new IT challenges. Having invested in computerisation, post offices are now equipped to become the front-office provider of government and I welcome the Minister's announcement of this initiative last night.

The introduction of standard banking accounts, which should be done as quickly as possible, will put An Post on an equal footing with the banks. Instead of people having to deal with banks where they have to contend with reduced banking hours, longer queues and less personal contact, they could transact their business in the local post office in a far friendlier environment. A wider range of services should be available in post offices, as other speakers have said, building on the success of the passport express service. Instead of promoting online payments, Government policy should focus on encouraging greater utilisation of the post office network, particularly for paying the local property tax, motor tax, court fines etc.

The post office workers can rest assured of my support.

I welcome the opportunity to speak. In any debate it is important to try to be as honest as possible. We can all admit that we have a problem here. The Irish Postmasters' Union and all the staff working in post offices know there is a problem. We will not solve it tonight and this motion will not sort it out, regardless of the outcome of the vote on it. Tomorrow the problem will still be there and we need a mechanism to deal with the situation. We need a healthy interaction between the legislators, the IPU and An Post. At the moment there is a tension - not a healthy tension - between the IPU and An Post and there is a problem there. We need to find creative ways of engaging in the coming months, not years.

I do not want to repeat what other speakers have already said. There was a great opportunity in 2007 when a Belgian bank did a deal to set up banking through An Post. Unfortunately that closed down in February 2010. That was the first step in this problem becoming a bigger problem. I accept that AIB has come in, which is a help. However, we still have a difficulty. This is not a difficulty that arose this week or last week. Three years ago e-payments by the Department of Social Protection were mentioned for the first time. We need to offer some kind of current account facility through An Post. It has the counter service. The post office workers are doing more work through their counter services than any bank teller. We need to work towards that objective.

Other speakers have mentioned the social element. We could close down every post office in the country and locate them in the larger towns. While that would be an economically viable option, we need to have a socially viable option. We need to keep our post offices open in the villages and towns, in the heart of the community. We need to do that creatively. In fairness to the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, he was very proactive when the Greencastle post office was under threat. He worked with the politicians, An Post and the IPU. That is the system we need in place for all the post offices and not when it becomes a political crisis and a motion is tabled.

I thank the Opposition for tabling this motion. The post office network is key to rural areas just as it is key to large parts of Dublin. In the constituency I represent there are many areas that have nothing other than a post office. Not only is it economically important, it has a greater social integration importance than any other thing in society. People working in post offices - the postal delivery people, postmasters and postmistresses, are doing more for people socially than any anybody else. We need to have a debate on and cherish the service.

In the last three years of the previous Government, comprising Fianna Fáil, the Green Party and Independents, 197 rural post offices were closed. We have seen AIB being brought into them. When the Labour Party was last in power we introduced the processing of passports through them. I say to the Fine Gael Deputies that they would be heading for a general election and not local elections if they keep their smart alecky comments trying to blame the Labour Party for anything other than a good plan.

There is a certain hysteria at the moment with people handing out telephone numbers and asking other people to ring their Deputies. I am delighted they are ringing us because we are getting in a position where we can engage with them and say we need to provide more services, ensure the sustainability and keep the people who are here employed and keep them rooted in society. It is more about social dynamics than economics. The Minister gets that and we have impressed it upon him. There has to be a plan about sustainability particularly in rural areas. It is high time that we had an overall plan for rural areas to create some sustainable jobs and allow people truly believe they can raise their families in rural areas.

I have received a number of calls from concerned constituents in recent days regarding possible post office closures. In this regard I wholeheartedly welcome the commitment the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, made last night that unless there is a compelling case the Government does not want to see a single post office closed. This is a welcome assurance, as one cannot overstate the importance of the local post office particularly to a rural area, where it is often the heartbeat of the entire community.

The post office can be the sole point of contact for many, particularly elderly people, and it plays an important role in combatting rural isolation. As with many other services, the postal network is facing challenges. An Post has responded to these challenges and has moved with the times by securing deals with Aviva and AIB. I believe there is further potential to develop relationships with other financial institutions and I encourage An Post to explore possibilities and opportunities with credit unions.

In March 2013 Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport and Communications launched a report on promoting a sustainable future for the postal network. Considerable work went into this document which contains good suggestions and ideas. It provides a basis on which the post office network can develop to suit the needs of the 21st century. All the stakeholders now need to come together and formulate a sustainable plan for the future of post offices. Unfortunately there has been a considerable amount of scaremongering in the past few days about the future of post offices.

I met post office workers, postmistresses and postmasters outside here tonight and I welcome them here. I want the message to go out from here this evening that the post offices throughout the country and particularly those in Counties Cavan and Monaghan are open for business and will continue to be open for business.

I urge people to use their local post offices. By supporting their post office they are supporting their community.

Vote for the motion.

I reiterate my support for the post office network. I want to give my full support to the commitment in the programme for Government to ensure the sustainability of the post office network.

(Interruptions).

We will have one speaker at a time. Deputy Collins has had her say; she has spoken on the motion. The final speaker in this segment is Deputy Harrington who will have three minutes.

I will begin by declaring an interest; I am a postmaster based in a stand-alone post office in Castletownbere in west Cork. Since I became a postmaster in 1992, I have been a member of the Irish Postmasters' Union and I compliment the union on bringing this campaign to the Dáil and to Government this evening along with the many postmasters and postmistresses throughout the country.

I recall a similar protest in 1997 when we carried a symbolic coffin through the streets of Dublin at that time calling for fair terms and conditions for our offices and our communities. My views remain the same and I still believe that if we are to serve the communities, villages, towns and larger urban areas, post offices will have to remain viable. The Fianna Fáil-led Government's response at that time was to establish an interdepartmental group of civil servants who concluded that the network was too big at 2,000 offices. It offered packages for post offices to close and we lost hundreds of post offices. In 2001 we had 2,000 offices and by 2005 we had 1,400. From 2004 to 2006 we lost one sub-office every two working days. There is not the response we need now.

I will be voting for a different approach outlined by the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, where the matter of the future of the post office network will go to a Cabinet subcommittee chaired by An Taoiseach, not to the civil servants where that matter went in 2001, and we will eventually explore new opportunities for the post office from central and local government and State agencies.

It is not widely understood by the public but postmasters depend entirely on the customers that use the post office to carry out their business. We are self-employed contractors who are constrained by many factors. Our business is An Post business. We cannot undertake any other. However, we see every day other corporate entities being offered this business. We are fighting with one hand effectively tied behind our back.

I thank Deputy Healy and his co-signatories for tabling this motion but I challenge Deputies, Senators and the public - I will not ask for a show of hands - that if they were asked do they use the post office to do their business-----

Deputies

Yes.

-----that I submit only a half of them do if the pattern is similar to that of the general population. If it is similar to that of general population, only half of the Members of this House would access their social protection business in post offices. How many of the Members access their utility bills in the post office? If the pattern is similar to that of the general population, it would be a fraction of less than 10% who do so.

That shook the Members opposite.

I call on all Oireachtas Members to lead by example and access the post office for their business.

I am pleased that An Post has again won the social protection contract for another five years. It is imperative that postmasters, An Post, the Government and the public step up to the mark and support the post office. An Post management also needs to come forward to support the sub-office branch network. I appeal to the Department of Social Protection to let its clients come to the post office to access their services.

Deputy Conway mentioned different Ministers in terms of business put through the post office network. I would remind her that the Minister for Finance is in charge of the NTMA, which has the second biggest contract with the sub-post offices. I would also include that in the record but I take the Deputy's point.

In my time in the business I have seen post offices within a 15 mile radius close, including those at Cahermore, Garnish, Adrigole, Trafrask, Coomhola and Waterfall. We do not need any of these communities losing those services.

Moving to the Technical Group, the next group of speakers are Deputies Luke 'Ming' Flanagan, Mick Wallace, Clare Daly, Richard Boyd Barrett, Stephen Donnolly, Tom Fleming and Noel Grealish. Is it agreed that the Deputies will share time? Agreed. I call Deputy Flanagan and he might indicate the sequence of speaking times for the Deputies.

It will be four minutes for each Member and two minutes for Deputy Grealish.

Before I came into the Chamber I went outside and spoke to some of the protesters. Some of them seem to have fallen for the line that perhaps their problem is solved but fortunately there were a few people there who, when I was talking to them, I reminded them that the Government has done this in the past. That is what it does in an election and in the run-up to an election. At this stage I am seriously wondering are we going to get a promise of world peace from the Government on 24 May because it has promised us everything else. When I was outside I met protesters who previously had protested outside this House on the issue of turf-cutting and I did not have to convince them that the Government was not telling the truth. As one of them reminded me, on 7 March two years ago the Government supported the turf-cutters and in a couple of months time I will be helping a few of them in court because the Government has criminalised them. People are not going to be fooled by this, no more than they do not believe that the Government is going to deliver on world peace, which I expect it to announce any time soon.

Only a fool cannot see the value in a seed and that is what the post office is for rural Ireland and for many towns that are not in rural Ireland. A seed does not look like much, it is generally small, it is not very impressive but what is inside it and what comes out of it when one activates it is what is phenomenal about it. I pity people who cannot see the value in the obvious. Post offices where I come from are like a seed. They are not just about delivering letters or the core services that the post office provides. They are also a seed that can be built on, no more than the small schools (amendment) Bill that I introduced about two ears ago, which is another seed for these areas. Without them they cannot survive. Sadly, nowadays we are told that X place cannot have a small school and Y place cannot have a post office because there are not enough people living there. This has been my argument in the past on schools and it will my argument tonight on post offices. Instead of Governments focusing on why there are so few people in an area and deciding to close the post office or schools, we have got to turn that on its head and ask why are there not more people there and create policies and decisions that make it possible for more to live there.

It interesting to hear that the Labour Party had to be convinced by Fine Gael to support the people. Well done to the people of Roscommon down through the years because we were never fooled by Labour. We worked it out a long time ago. We knew that it was never were going to do anything for rural Ireland. We elected a man to Dáil Éireann who won two all-Ireland medals in Roscommon in the 1940s and guess what - he joined Labour and we would not elect him. We are very smart. The reality is that the Labour Party does not give a damn about the post offices. It does not give a damn about rural Ireland.

That is not true.

It is not true.

I am having the desired effect - I am annoying the Labour Party Members. In the long term Labour will do exactly the same thing with the post office network because it cannot see the value in it.

(Interruptions).

Eventually it will privatise and destroy it like it has destroyed everything else.

I was lucky enough to be brought up in a family where I had an aunt and an uncle who were 50 years and 49 years working in the post office. They were great people and never missed work. My uncle was a hero of the country. He used to deliver cheques to people and if he thought there was an alcoholic in the house he would hold back the cheque for a day until the following week. What will the Government do in the future? It will privatise it and it will not only deliver the letters but deliver the vodka to the alcoholic as well because there is a profit in it.

There will be profit for the Deputy as well.

It is the same old nonsense.

We will deliver more than vodka.

Tiochfaidh ár lár.

Thank you, Deputy. I call Deputy Mick Wallace.

I heard the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, say last night that unless there is a compelling case the Government does not want to see a single post office closed. I came in here twice in the last year and begged that a post office in Duncormick - a small village near where I live - be kept open. It was the last post office in the parish of Rathangan and more than 1,200 people in the parish wrote to An Post demanding that it be kept open and gave the different reasons it was so important to them. We had many people who were not computer savvy and many elderly people who did not have any transport. They needed the post office in the village.

An Post said "No". We then looked at trying to get a post office into one of the shops in the village. Again, we got many people to sign a petition demanding the post office. What happened the second time? We did not even get a reply. I raised the subject with the Minister but he insisted that An Post is a State body and that it has to make a profit and must do this and do that.

Unless there is an active approach from the Government, post offices will not survive. They are now going to be asked to compete with Tesco, the second most profitable supermarket chain on the planet. It is ridiculous to think that small post offices of any nature are going to compete with the Tescos of this world. The only way the post offices will be maintained is if the Government decides to maintain them and if it decides definitely that no more will close, no matter what.

Last night, I was worried to hear the Minister say:

An Post may be the best-known and most successful indigenous brand we have. However, this will not suffice if it is not able to provide the services demanded by its customers in the way that those services are required and in the location where those services are needed.

He went on to suggest that people might like to go to the shopping centres for their postal services. If he thinks it is a good idea to allow the post office to creep into Tesco, he obviously does not think it a great idea to keep post offices alive. Many post offices, small shops and small pubs have closed and what has the Government done about it? Nothing. If it does nothing, these things happen.

It is false economy. Villages are dying; they are becoming wastelands. What does that create? It creates further unemployment, social problems and isolation for many people. If something does not have monetary value, the Government does not value it, from what I can see. I hope I am wrong and I hope the Government will prove me wrong. The post office has social value and the Government has to decide whether it measures social value or just economic value. If it just measures the economic side, then the post offices will all be in Tesco in the not too distant future.

We have heard a lot of talk about how the fight has gone out of Irish people and how we have lost the will to protest. The crowds that have mobilised around this issue, from every part of the country, say that this is not the case. One of the Fine Gael Deputies said that the Irish Postmasters' Union should be congratulated on having made us realise this is something we might lose. The reality is that the people who have mobilised have let the Government Members know that they might lose their seats if they do not get the finger out and do something about this issue. It is as crude as that.

We are subjected in this House, day after day, to a phenomenal amount of doublespeak. I would actually say it is the hallmark of this Government, epitomised by the Minister, Deputy Shatter, himself. On paper, they say one thing but their actions deliver something entirely different. On paper, they say that the post offices will not close but the reality is that, by their actions and the step this Government is taking, the viability of rural post offices is under threat. That, I am sorry to say, is a fact.

Figures have been given on how, in the past period, 200 rural post offices have been lost. Deputies on the Government benches have tried to say that the threat identified by Grant Thornton of a further 600 closures and 3,000 job losses is no more, that they are on top of it and that it is just being exaggerated. I do not believe this is the case. I honestly believe the threat is real because of what has gone on.

I am a bit sickened by the game playing between the Government parties. We saw over the weekend the leaked memo whereby the Fine Gael Party was trying to mobilise its backbenchers to cover their own tracks by sending out letters and e-mails to blame the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, in a cynical manoeuvre that would say it had nothing to do with Fine Gael. Obviously, that caused huge disquiet in the ranks of Labour Party Members who are up in arms, the like of which I have not seen over any other issue and despite the appalling policies that party has stood over recently.

While the Government may say it has no agenda to close the post offices, it has no strategy to keep them open, and its inaction will kill them unless it takes stock. It is a bit rich to be congratulating the Tánaiste, Deputy Eamon Gilmore, and the Minister, Deputy Joan Burton, on social welfare and passport contracts that predated them. This issue predates everybody and is not just a rural issue.

It was Dick Spring who gave the passport contract to the post offices in the first place.

We did a lot more than they ever did.

In my constituency, which has semi-rural parts to it, towns like Rush have been decimated. These communities have lost a bank and a Garda station and have had their library hours cut in a cynical manoeuvre. Now, their post office is being threatened by Tesco. The idea that the Labour Party would stand over a massive multinational benefiting from this hollowing out of villages is reprehensible. This community, many of whom are present in the Dáil tonight, have been collecting petitions and objecting in the strongest possible terms precisely because, if the post office goes, other things will follow.

Multinational superstores have already hollowed out communities. They have been a threat to record shops, bookshops, pharmacies and bakeries, and now the post offices are in their sights. Maybe the Blueshirts are happy with that, so when people collect their social welfare cheques, they can spend their money in Tesco. The people are not happy with that and those outside the gates of Leinster House are not happy. I am delighted the Government backbenchers are under pressure. They should be because the people will not stand for it.

I commend the Irish Postmasters' Union and the communities throughout the country who have mobilised this week and over recent weeks and who have come to protest at the Dáil today. The main thing I would say to them is that they should not stop here because they are producing a very interesting effect in the Dáil. They know they are getting somewhere when the Government parties start to have a crack at each other and start to fall out among one another.

The Deputies over there do it so well.

Their usual tactic is to divide us in order to rule us and to play us off against one another-----

They are already divided.

----- but this campaign is succeeding in setting them against one another. The people can see the impact they are having and the Government does not like it. I ask them to keep up their campaign-----

It would not be too hard to divide that lot over there - the united left.

We have one speaker. Deputy Boyd Barrett is in possession.

The important thing is that they keep up their campaign. There is something very strange indeed when speaker after speaker from the Government side says they must commit themselves to the defence of the post office network and they will do nothing to endanger rural post offices or post offices in small villages and towns, yet the Government does not commit, and presumably the very same Deputies who spoke refuse to commit, to support the motion that has been tabled calling for precisely that commitment to be written down. Instead, they call for the deletion of that motion and put forward an amendment which is absent of any serious commitment.

Of course, that is the truth. We can all express concern. We can all express in the vaguest rhetorical way our commitment to the post offices and the post office network but if we do not take concrete, real action to secure that network, then the words mean absolutely nothing. What is worrying from the comments of Deputy Harrington is when he says things like, "Well, it is up to whether people come and use the post office". Sure, the people should use the post office.

What is worrying about the Government amendment and about its whole approach to this issue is that, essentially, it is saying that post offices will stand or fall depending on market forces. If they can cut the mustard in the cut-throat competition with the banks and Tesco, maybe they will survive, but if they cannot, the post offices are gone. That is not good enough. What this motion says is that we want a concrete and real commitment to maintain the post office network in towns and villages throughout the country because the post office is more than just a business.

Just in case Government Deputies think they have a monopoly on this, we lost a post office in Dún Laoghaire recently. Small post offices are being threatened in Dún Laoghaire and small villages and towns just like the small businesses that are being hammered in towns like Dún Laoghaire and rural areas. Obviously, the rural areas are being worst hit but the problem is general. It seems this Government will always facilitate big corporations, banks and big interests and if they swallow up, destroy and undermine small businesses and things as important as the post office, the Government will just let it happen because it is so committed to this cut-throat market ideology of profit coming first. It should put the people and communities first and support the post office network.

I congratulate Deputy Healy on bringing this motion before the House and I am delighted to be a co-signatory. The programme for Government states that "we will ensure that the network of post offices around the country is maintained and that communities have access to adequate postal services in their locality". It is disappointing, therefore, that the Government is refusing to accept this very sensible motion before the House this evening. We all accept that a well-functioning post office network is essential to communities the length and breadth of the country but that network is under immense pressure. As the Minister knows, 209 post offices and sub-post offices were shut down between 2006 and 2012. As I am sure he is aware, the Grant Thornton report warns of the potential closure of another 557 post offices if An Post loses the social welfare contract. Last night, the Minister said there are no plans to shut down further post offices. This is welcome but it must be backed with action, commitment and policy.

We can learn lessons from our neighbours in the UK. Consumer Focus explored the long-term effects of closing post offices in Devon. It found that many consumers now have to take lengthy journeys to post offices at significant expense, that many people in SMEs have to travel long distances to access post office services at considerable cost in time, that 60% of rural post offices provide the only village shop and that in virtually every instance where the in-shop post office was closed, it had a significant effect on the viability of the shop and in a majority of cases, the village shop subsequently closed.

I am sure what happened in Devon is very familiar to Deputies here and I would like to mention two examples in my own constituency. The first is in Arklow. The arrival of a shopping centre at one end of the town and a large supermarket at the other end has put the main street under a lot of pressure. The post office remains one of the reasons people visit the main street. To An Post's credit, it is installing a disability ramp and upgrading the interior of the post office and acknowledges the importance of the post office to the main street in Arklow. However, this post office, as with so many around the country, is under pressure. Any move to close it would be a disaster.

The second example is in Kilcoole. The postmistress of Kilcoole, Cathriona Whiston, was here last night and heard the Minister speak. She said she was shocked to hear him say that people show a preference for on-site provision of service rather than walking to a separate location to conduct their business. She believes the Minister is wrong about this. In her experience, people want to be on their main streets. She believes they go to shopping centres because their main streets have been let run down and that the post office is the only thing holding many main streets together. As there is no bank in Kilcoole and no post offices in Newtownmountkennedy or Delgany, her post office's over-the-counter service is vital for many people but, again, it is under pressure and should it close, it would be a disaster for the local community.

So what is to be done? Mail volumes across Europe are in decline. An Post's mail volumes have fallen 30% since 2007 so change is undoubtedly needed. The challenge is to embrace the new without destroying the old. We need to renew the post office for the digital age without destroying the bricks and mortar businesses of our towns and villages. To its credit, An Post is trialling some innovative products. They include the online shopping channel, foreign exchange, Postfone and an SME digital trading platform. Much good work is being done by An Post and by the postmasters but they need Government support. They are asking the Government and Minister to come up with a plan and to lay out a vision for the future and a way of getting there. We need an inclusive debate with the Minister, the Oireachtas, the postmasters, An Post, the Communications Workers' Union and representatives of local communities. In that light, Deputy Healy's motion is entirely sensible.

There is no downside to the Government accepting this motion before the House tonight. The Government should do so and in an act of good faith to all stakeholders, it should withdraw its counter motion and accept the motion from Deputy Healy.

With over 1,100 branches, the post office network is the largest physical infrastructure in Ireland and is a vital strategic asset. The Government needs to recognise the unique and vital role of the post office, particularly in rural Ireland, as a means of communication, an essential economic tool and an intrinsic part of the fabric of the community. It has social and economic values and functions as an integral part of the social fabric of rural Ireland.

In the programme for Government, the Government made a commitment to maintain the network but in the past three years, we have not seen any strategic plan or action to accompany and deliver on this aspiration. Up to now, it has only been a pious platitude. If it is not delivered on immediately, it will be the death knell for many of our post offices. The recent decision to set up 34 centres for driving licence application processing was an ideal opportunity for the Government. The post office structure was the ideal local centre of convenience for the general public but instead many people have to spend up a half a day and sometimes a full day travelling long distances to central venues that are many miles from their homes.

Social welfare payments are the mainstay of post offices' business. On average, it amounts to about one third of gross income but, ironically, following the Department of Social Protection signing up to a new two-year contract with An Post, a representative from the Irish Postmasters' Union who attended a meeting of the Oireachtas committee gave us a copy of a document sent to a social welfare recipient by the Department. The document asked the recipient to sign up for payments made by electronic systems through the bank. This was to the exclusion of the option of going to a post office. This needs to be addressed in the short term and post offices need to be immediately equipped through the provision of a full banking infrastructure operated by An Post that would enable the network to facilitate the Department of Social Protection strategy to move to e-payments. Now that An Post is involved in a consortium dispensing national lottery tickets, that facility needs to be available in all post offices. It would help their viability.

I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak here tonight on such an important issue - one that affects the backbone of our society. I congratulate Deputy Healy and the Technical Group on bringing this Private Members' motion before the House. I ask the Minister not to attack the most vulnerable in our society and to pledge Government support for the post office network. I ask him to work with the Irish Postmasters' Union and rather than downgrade services, increase the range and type of services that post offices can offer. He should provide facilities for people to pay motor tax, water charges and other local authority payments. He should allow members of the public to renew their driving licences, update the register of electors, complete forms electronically or pay hospital charges. There are many opportunities to upgrade and improve the network which will not only increase efficiency and result in net savings for the Exchequer, but make life easier for people, especially those in rural Ireland.

In 2012, Grant Thornton was commissioned to undertake an independent review of the post office service. I ask the Minister to give serious consideration to its document assessing the post office network, which highlights all of the opportunities that exist to strengthen and develop the post office network while making public services more efficient.

It would also signal strong support for rural, disadvantaged and isolated communities that traditionally rely on the post office for basic services.

I will cite the document prepared by the Irish Postmasters' Union, IPU, on what will happen if the Government does not produce a plan. It reads:

Post Offices will close, communities will suffer - and the disadvantaged will suffer disproportionately. Rural communities will suffer both socially and economically while disadvantaged urban areas ... will also be badly affected ... If the Post Office is lost the heart of the community is gone. The social impact will be devastating.

I compliment the IPU on its excellent presentation to Oireachtas Members in recent weeks and I call on all Deputies with rural constituencies to support this motion.

The Government has listened carefully to all the points made by Members on all sides of the House during this important debate on the future sustainability of the post office network. It is clear to everyone that the passion with which all speakers have addressed the debate demonstrates the widespread regard, trust and loyalty for the nationwide network of post offices.

Yesterday, the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, expressed his disappointment at the recent headlines asserting that 557 post offices were to close and at the impression that was circulating that somewhere, somehow, the Government had announced a plan to shut down post offices. I reiterate that there is no such Government plan. The headlines have emanated from a consultancy report for the IPU that presumes the loss of the social welfare contract and calculates that such a loss would, in the worst case, lead to the closure of a significant number of post offices.

The fact of the matter is that the post office network is a unique social, cultural and financial institution that makes a vital contribution to the economy. The professionalism of the postmasters, the unions and the board and management of An Post has served the network well through the years and there is no reason this should not continue to be the case in the years ahead.

The Minister and I have listened carefully to the various points and issues raised by Deputies over the two nights of this debate. It has highlighted the wide range of issues for consideration by all stakeholders when taking account of the future sustainability of the network. Post offices have moved with the times in recent years and now the over-the-counter business offers many more services than were offered previously, including foreign exchange, passport services, bank agency services and tax payment services. This demonstrates the commercial acumen and adaptability of An Post as a company and its staff, postmasters and unions to seek out, win and deliver on new business opportunities to meet customer demands.

As a further fillip to the quest for new business opportunities for the post office network, the Government has decided on a whole-of-government approach, encompassing central and local government and the wider public service, with an eye to the nature and extent of services that can be provided to the public by using the post office network as a front office of government, as it were. This will afford an opportunity for a wide-ranging review of the services that could be delivered by the post office network and perhaps yield synergies among the various agencies. Deputies have queried whether there is a timeline for the Cabinet sub-committee to conclude its work. The Minister expects this work to be concluded inside six months.

It is a modern day reality that technological change, consumer choice and expectations and the actions of An Post's competitors will give rise to further significant challenges in the coming years. The road ahead will not necessarily be easy, but nothing will be gained by standing still. The Government's priority is for An Post to be in a position to compete for and win contracts for payment services independent of the technology platform.

We welcome this opportunity for a debate on the future sustainability of the post office network, as it has provided a useful forum for many views to be aired. As the debate draws to a conclusion, it is hoped that the announcement regarding the whole-of-government consideration in respect of the use of the post office network as a front office of government will allay the many concerns expressed and pave the way for an informed approach and new developments in the years ahead.

Notwithstanding the inevitable further challenges that lie ahead, I once again convey the support of the Government for the post office network. I am pleased we have managed to arrest the decline in post office closures. According to the same Grant Thornton report, 197 post offices closed between 2006 and 2010. Since the end of 2010, only 17 offices have closed. This is a fact.

I am pleased that last year An Post was successful in winning the social welfare tender. I also welcome the decision of my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, to appoint Mr. Christoph Mueller as chairman of An Post. Mr. Mueller's business background is relevant to the business challenges confronting An Post. We look forward to the conclusion of the social policy Cabinet sub-committee in respect of An Post in the 21st century. On behalf of the Government, the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, is committed to working with the IPU to safeguard and develop the post office network.

I understand that Deputy Higgins is sharing time with Deputies Halligan and Healy.

I strongly commend Deputy Healy on initiating this motion on a crucial issue. I also commend those who have travelled from throughout the country to highlight the critical importance of the post office network in rural and urban areas.

Last night, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources stated:

An Post is a commercial State company that earns its own keep and receives no Exchequer subsidy. My colleagues and I cannot arrange a hidden subsidy for it by dictating that all or even any Government business is automatically given to An Post.

He referenced EU laws that required the services delivered through An Post to be put out to tender. However, a little earlier in his speech he stated: "the post office network has evolved a social role, in the widest meaning of the term, which is highly valued by local communities". There is a significant contradiction between these two parts of the Minister's statement.

The cold-hearted bureaucrats in Brussels view everything through the logic of capitalism that is red in tooth and claw and do not at all care about the critical social aspects the post office serves in Irish society. Hence, the EU bureaucrats want to pit the small post offices, whether they be in rural areas or working class communities in Dublin, against King Kongs like Tesco and other multiples. What damn does Tesco give about the social role and the poor and the elderly who need to be facilitated by the special knowledge and expertise that those now serving in the post offices provide? Consider how the Tescos of this world short-change the small farmers and suppliers of food, driving down prices to the minimum while soaking shoppers for what they can get and walking away with incredible billions of euro in profit. That is what the logic of capitalism and competition and the EU bureaucrats are holding in store for our post office network if they are allowed to get away with it. If a social role is performed by the post offices, which they clearly do, it should be subsidised. There should be a social subsidy to take into account the unique role that post offices play in our society, both in rural and urban areas, and to recognise the service they deliver.

Of course the Minister will not enter the Chamber with a list of post offices to close. Rather, by allowing the capitalist marketplace to dictate to the benefit of the major multiples, the small post offices will wither on the vine while the large commercial sharks take the business.

Government Deputies have come to the Chamber in large numbers, elbowing one another aside to get the chance to speak. I challenge them. If they are serious, why will they not vote for a concrete action that would secure the future of post offices and the crucial services they provide?

Why do they not support that the Government should instruct each Department to implement, through the post office network, the business identified in the report by Grant Thornton and the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications that will underpin the sustainability of the network? Why will they not vote to commit that all tenders involving over-the-counter transactions will be decided on the basis of both social and economic policy? Why will they not vote to commit to implementing a new banking service that will be available to the post office network and operated by An Post? Why will they not commit to a once off capital investment fund for the further modernisation of the post office, to enable the widespread provision of banking facilities in rural and disadvantaged areas?

If the Government Deputies go along with this cop out from the Minister, they will be rubber-stamping the approach that is being taken to hand the business over to the big multiples such as Tesco, starve the local post office and therefore cause them to close. They should be serious and make up their minds about this.

Toeing the party line.

With 1.7 million customers visiting 1,150 outlets every week, An Post is running the largest financial services network in the country. Critically, it is also one of the most trusted institutions in the country at a time when faith in the traditional banking system is at an all-time low. We have all seen the effect the slash and burn closures of Garda stations have had on rural communities. Now our post office network could quite possibly go down the same sorry road. For example, the partnership with Tesco will lead to a more urban-based service which, as has been repeatedly pointed out, threatens the livelihood of hundreds of self-employed postmasters. State services have been farmed out to a multinational supermarket chain. That is what we are practically proposing to do.

I draw attention to the Grant Thornton report, commissioned by the Irish Postmasters' Union. It makes a compelling case for the development of a strategic plan for sustaining the rural post office network. That is the not the first time the Government has heard this. Two years ago, a report by the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications on the future of the network indicated that An Post would require additional services to ensure long-term viability, particularly in rural areas.

Local post offices have proven time and again that they are willing to adapt to changing times. They can be used for public sector services, such as ordering passports or paying speeding fines. The post offices are willing to do that and are willing to change. State savings at An Post increased from a book of €6 billion in 2007 to almost €17 billion last year. This has happened at a time when people have never been more distrustful of banks. This growth cannot be overstated. Local postmasters hunger for similar new opportunities to develop their businesses. They are not asking for handouts from the State. They are better positioned than any other institution to provide more services to their network of 1.7 million customers.

I do not know why the Government approved the creation of 34 driving licence application centres throughout the country instead of awarding the contract to handle the new system to the country's 1,100 post offices. An example of such impracticality can be found in my constituency. In order to get a driving licence in Tramore, if one does not go online, one has to drive 50 km to Dungarvan and 50 km back. That does not make sense.

An estimated 18% of the Irish population do not have a bank account, for a myriad of reasons, including the fact they cannot afford bank charges. In many cases, they just do not want a bank account and they are entitled to make that choice. We have no right to deprive them of their civil liberties. It is an attack on the civil liberties of 18% of the population to take away the trusting post office service that they have known for generations. I addressed almost 1,000 people outside the Houses of the Oireachtas earlier this evening. I said this was not about stability within the financial services nor about viability of the post offices but about sustainability and viability of the human being. This is not about profit or greed and avarice. Have we not learned over the past ten years that this has been catastrophic on people throughout Ireland? This is about putting people before profit.

All those people who were outside this building tonight work in post offices and represent many people who are disadvantaged in society. For example, we still have high illiteracy and innumeracy rates in Ireland. It is well known by the Money Advice & Budgeting Service, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and other organisations that the post office is the first port of call for many of those people who are under severe psychological pressure. It would be catastrophic to undermine what the post offices do.

If the Labour Party Members knew what they were about, I do not think they would do this. I ask them to consider withdrawing the Government amendment. Let us see what happens. The Government should negotiate with the Irish Postmasters' Union and talk to the rest of us. It is not a win situation for the Independent Members if the Labour Party Members withdraw their amendment. We would be very gracious if they did, and we ask them to do it.

At the outset, I welcome the postmasters, postmistresses, staff and families who are in the Visitors Gallery tonight, and I thank those who also attended last night. I thank the large numbers who attended a protest outside Leinster House this evening.

The Government amendment and the contributions of the Minister and the Minister of State have been deeply disappointing and even disingenuous. The amendment does not contain a single firm commitment or timeline for any action to protect the post office network. It merely postpones action further by commencing a new review while the post office network is being undermined by the Government. In his contribution last night, the Minister made the cheap headline grabbing statement that the Government has no plan to close post offices. Denying allegations that have not been made is an old cynical media manipulation trick. The real problem is that the Minister and his Government have no plans to keep the post office network open. The effect of the Government and the statements last night and tonight is a clear breach of the commitment in the programme for Government to protect post offices and the post office network. The effect of the amendment is that the actions and even the inaction of the Government will lead to the closure of hundreds of post offices over the short to medium term due to lack of business.

The Grant Thornton report shows that if the Department of Social Protection contract were lost or a substantial portion of it diverted elsewhere through electronic payments, there would be large-scale closures and job losses. Urgent action, not words, is needed to avoid this development. That is the problem this Private Members' motion seeks to address. The Government amendment fails to address the problem and it should be defeated tonight or withdrawn. Labour Party and Fine Gael Deputies who vote against our motion and in favour of the Government amendment will be held responsible for the closure of post offices into the future.

In his contribution, the Minister sought to give false comfort to the crucial contract with the Department of Social Protection, but the general secretary of the Irish Postmasters' Union said in a statement that immediate Government action is required to ensure the viability of the post office network into the future. He expressed the concern that although An Post had won the welfare payments contract, the Department of Social Protection was actively encouraging customers into using bank accounts to receive welfare payments. He states that while post offices may have won the contract in theory, business is being diverted on a daily basis and post offices will not survive if this continues.

The Government must take a number of urgent and concrete actions to protect the post office network and honour the commitment it made in the programme for Government. Foremost among them is the drafting of an action plan. The Government must immediately provide a framework of planning and consultation between An Post, the Irish Postmasters' Union, trade unions in An Post and the Department to draw up a strategic plan to implement the commitment made in the programme for Government to maintain the post office network. The Minister must stop the diversion of business from post offices while this planning is taking place and instruct An Post to cease the roll-out of the installation of machines in Tesco under the guise of a pilot scheme. The Government must stop the Department of Social Protection instructing new jobseekers to open bank accounts into which payments will be made, as occurred recently in Cork. It must grant An Post a full banking licence which can be used by postmasters to avail of Government business.

The Minister should have provided these commitments last night and tonight. Instead, we heard waffle and plámas and action being put on the long finger. The post office network is being daily undermined by the Minister and his Government colleagues. I call on all Deputies to support this clear, precise and non-contentious motion and vote against the Government amendment which permits the continued undermining of the post office network. I commend the motion to the House.

Amendment put:
The Dáil divided: Tá, 83; Níl, 55.

  • Barry, Tom.
  • Breen, Pat.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burton, Joan.
  • Butler, Ray.
  • Buttimer, Jerry.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Cannon, Ciarán.
  • Carey, Joe.
  • Coffey, Paudie.
  • Collins, Áine.
  • Conaghan, Michael.
  • Conlan, Seán.
  • Connaughton, Paul J.
  • Conway, Ciara.
  • Coonan, Noel.
  • Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Coveney, Simon.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Daly, Jim.
  • Deasy, John.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Deering, Pat.
  • Donohoe, Paschal.
  • Dowds, Robert.
  • Doyle, Andrew.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • English, Damien.
  • Farrell, Alan.
  • Feighan, Frank.
  • Ferris, Anne.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Hannigan, Dominic.
  • Harrington, Noel.
  • Harris, Simon.
  • Heydon, Martin.
  • Hogan, Phil.
  • Humphreys, Heather.
  • Humphreys, Kevin.
  • Kehoe, Paul.
  • Kelly, Alan.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Kyne, Seán.
  • Lawlor, Anthony.
  • Lynch, Ciarán.
  • Lynch, Kathleen.
  • Lyons, John.
  • McCarthy, Michael.
  • McHugh, Joe.
  • McLoughlin, Tony.
  • Maloney, Eamonn.
  • Mitchell, Olivia.
  • Mitchell O'Connor, Mary.
  • Mulherin, Michelle.
  • Murphy, Dara.
  • Murphy, Eoghan.
  • Nash, Gerald.
  • Neville, Dan.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Donnell, Kieran.
  • O'Donovan, Patrick.
  • O'Dowd, Fergus.
  • O'Mahony, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Jan.
  • Penrose, Willie.
  • Perry, John.
  • Phelan, Ann.
  • Phelan, John Paul.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Ryan, Brendan.
  • Spring, Arthur.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Stanton, David.
  • Tuffy, Joanna.
  • Twomey, Liam.
  • Wall, Jack.
  • Walsh, Brian.
  • White, Alex.

Níl

  • Adams, Gerry.
  • Boyd Barrett, Richard.
  • Broughan, Thomas P.
  • Browne, John.
  • Calleary, Dara.
  • Collins, Joan.
  • Collins, Niall.
  • Colreavy, Michael.
  • Creighton, Lucinda.
  • Crowe, Seán.
  • Daly, Clare.
  • Doherty, Pearse.
  • Donnelly, Stephen S.
  • Dooley, Timmy.
  • Ellis, Dessie.
  • Ferris, Martin.
  • Flanagan, Luke 'Ming'.
  • Flanagan, Terence.
  • Fleming, Sean.
  • Fleming, Tom.
  • Grealish, Noel.
  • Halligan, John.
  • Healy, Seamus.
  • Healy-Rae, Michael.
  • Higgins, Joe.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • Kirk, Seamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
  • McConalogue, Charlie.
  • McDonald, Mary Lou.
  • McGrath, Finian.
  • McGrath, Mattie.
  • McGrath, Michael.
  • McGuinness, John.
  • McLellan, Sandra.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • Mathews, Peter.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Murphy, Catherine.
  • Naughten, Denis.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
  • Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
  • O'Brien, Jonathan.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Sullivan, Maureen.
  • Pringle, Thomas.
  • Ross, Shane.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Stanley, Brian.
  • Troy, Robert.
  • Wallace, Mick.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg; Níl, Deputies John Halligan and Seamus Healy.
Amendment declared carried.
Question put: "That the motion, as amended, be agreed to."
The Dáil divided by electronic means.

As a teller, under Standing Order 69 I propose that the vote be taken by other than electronic means.

As Deputy John Halligan is a Whip, under Standing Order 69 he is entitled to call a vote through the lobby.

Question again put:
The Dáil divided: Tá, 81; Níl, 51.

  • Barry, Tom.
  • Breen, Pat.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burton, Joan.
  • Butler, Ray.
  • Buttimer, Jerry.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Joe.
  • Coffey, Paudie.
  • Collins, Áine.
  • Conaghan, Michael.
  • Conlan, Seán.
  • Connaughton, Paul J.
  • Conway, Ciara.
  • Coonan, Noel.
  • Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Coveney, Simon.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Daly, Jim.
  • Deasy, John.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Deering, Pat.
  • Donohoe, Paschal.
  • Dowds, Robert.
  • Doyle, Andrew.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • English, Damien.
  • Farrell, Alan.
  • Feighan, Frank.
  • Ferris, Anne.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harrington, Noel.
  • Harris, Simon.
  • Hayes, Tom.
  • Heydon, Martin.
  • Hogan, Phil.
  • Humphreys, Heather.
  • Humphreys, Kevin.
  • Kehoe, Paul.
  • Kelly, Alan.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Kyne, Seán.
  • Lawlor, Anthony.
  • Lynch, Ciarán.
  • Lynch, Kathleen.
  • Lyons, John.
  • McCarthy, Michael.
  • McHugh, Joe.
  • McLoughlin, Tony.
  • Maloney, Eamonn.
  • Mitchell O'Connor, Mary.
  • Mitchell, Olivia.
  • Mulherin, Michelle.
  • Murphy, Dara.
  • Murphy, Eoghan.
  • Nash, Gerald.
  • Neville, Dan.
  • O'Donnell, Kieran.
  • O'Donovan, Patrick.
  • O'Dowd, Fergus.
  • O'Mahony, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Jan.
  • Penrose, Willie.
  • Perry, John.
  • Phelan, Ann.
  • Phelan, John Paul.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Ryan, Brendan.
  • Spring, Arthur.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Stanton, David.
  • Tuffy, Joanna.
  • Twomey, Liam.
  • Wall, Jack.
  • Walsh, Brian.
  • White, Alex.

Níl

  • Adams, Gerry.
  • Boyd Barrett, Richard.
  • Broughan, Thomas P.
  • Browne, John.
  • Calleary, Dara.
  • Collins, Joan.
  • Collins, Niall.
  • Colreavy, Michael.
  • Crowe, Seán.
  • Daly, Clare.
  • Doherty, Pearse.
  • Donnelly, Stephen S.
  • Dooley, Timmy.
  • Ellis, Dessie.
  • Ferris, Martin.
  • Flanagan, Luke 'Ming'.
  • Fleming, Sean.
  • Fleming, Tom.
  • Grealish, Noel.
  • Halligan, John.
  • Healy, Seamus.
  • Healy-Rae, Michael.
  • Higgins, Joe.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • Kirk, Seamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
  • McConalogue, Charlie.
  • McDonald, Mary Lou.
  • McGrath, Finian.
  • McGrath, Mattie.
  • McGrath, Michael.
  • McGuinness, John.
  • McLellan, Sandra.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • Mathews, Peter.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Murphy, Catherine.
  • Naughten, Denis.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Sullivan, Maureen.
  • Pringle, Thomas.
  • Ross, Shane.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Stanley, Brian.
  • Troy, Robert.
  • Wallace, Mick.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg; Níl, Deputies John Halligan and Seamus Healy.
Question declared carried.
The Dáil adjourned at 9.40 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 27 February 2014.
Barr
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