Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 13 May 2014

Vol. 841 No. 1

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

Last Friday, we had the publication of the Guerin report into serious allegations that were made into the handling of various complaints of malpractice within Bailieborough Garda station and related events. Having read the report, it seems clear that the former Minister, Deputy Shatter, resigned as a response to chapters 19 and 20 of that report and the conclusions arrived at, and not just because he wanted to spare any embarrassment to the Government parties in the run-up to the local and European elections. At the centre of those conclusions is the fact that there was no independent investigation of Sergeant Maurice McCabe's complaints and that the Minister has a specific role and function in terms of ordering an independent inquiry into such allegations and did not do so.

In addition, Mr. Guerin makes the point that there is cause for concern as to the adequacy of the investigation of the complaints made by Sergeant McCabe to the Minister. He states that there is sufficient basis for concern as to whether all appropriate steps were taken by the Minister to investigate and address the specified complaints.

There is also the question of the departmental response. In chapters 19 and 20 the report refers strongly to that issue. It states that there was no submission to the Minister by his officials, in particular at times when the exercise of specific statutory functions by the Minister arose. Mr. Guerin said he found it very difficult to find material which demonstrates that the Department identified and understood the significant independent statutory role which the Minister had to perform in respect of these matters.

I also wish to raise the Department of the Taoiseach's response to these issues. As far back as August 2012, Sergeant McCabe e-mailed the Taoiseach and his Department concerning the penalty points dossier. There was also a covering letter about the serious incidents he alleged were occurring in Bailieborough. Nothing happened for months in that regard. Sergeant McCabe was so frustrated with the Department of the Taoiseach that he made a formal complaint to the Department about the lack of a response to the serious issues he was raising. He went further in making a complaint to the Ombudsman.

Taking all three matters together, they refer back to the fundamental conclusion of Mr. Guerin that, in essence and despite the gravity of the complaints that were made, nobody within the Government took them at all seriously. There is a whole of Government response that needs serious analysis and questioning, not just the former Minister for Justice and Equality himself.

Did the Taoiseach ask the former Minister, Deputy Shatter, to resign specifically because of the conclusions in chapters 19 and 20? What are the implications for the Department of Justice and Equality? Has the Taoiseach or the Minister for Justice and Equality discussed the implications of the report with the secretary general of the Department of Justice and Equality, and his response to the report's conclusions in chapters 19 and 20? What about the Taoiseach's response and that of his Department to these allegations? Would he agree that there was total inertia and a lack of any independent analysis or questioning about the response to these issues?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy has become all seeing and all knowledgeable about all things of late. I recall a departmental official going before an Oireachtas committee on two occasions confirming that the Deputy had been told about a particular report a number of years ago, about which he had denied all responsibility. Perhaps the Deputy recalls it.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

We do not need a history lesson.

The Taoiseach

The Guerin report has been published. After some Independent Deputies raised these matters in the first instance, I considered the matters serious and I treated them with gravity. The Government appointed Mr. Guerin to produce a report, which has been published, and this morning the Cabinet made a number of decisions regarding it. First, we decided to establish a commission of investigation, as proposed in the report. Second, we decided the Garda Inspectorate should carry out a comprehensive inquiry into serious crime investigation, management, operational and procedural issues. Third, we agreed to bring forward legislation strengthening the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC. Fourth, we decided to commission an expert review of the performance management and administration of the Department of Justice and Equality with a very short timeline to report.

We reflected, again, on the decision already taken by the Government that an independent and statutory Garda authority should be established and, hopefully, be operational by the end of the year. The new Cabinet sub-committee, which I chair, will hold its second meeting on it next Tuesday. We also made the decision, which has already been announced, to begin the process of recruiting a new Garda Commissioner by open competition and in parallel with the establishment of the statutory authority. I already answered the questions the Deputy asked about the former Minister, Deputy Shatter, on a number of occasions last week.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I asked whether the Taoiseach asked Deputy Shatter to resign regarding chapters 19 and 20 of the report, because that is the only reason one can deduce by reading the report of his failure to exercise a specific statutory function he had. The local and European elections should have nothing to do with it, although the Minister alluded to them in his letter. Is it the Taoiseach's view that the former Minister failed to exercise appropriately the statutory functions he had to establish an independent inquiry? Does the Taoiseach accept Mr. Guerin's conclusions in that regard? I am entitled to an answer.

Over the weekend, the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, said the Department of Justice and Equality was not fit for purpose. The new Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, did not express confidence in the Department or in the Secretary General, which left many questions unanswered and many people asking questions.

An Ceann Comhairle

Could the Deputy put his question please?

Deputy Micheál Martin

This did not all happen overnight. There was silence from the Government when the conversation between the confidential recipient and Sergeant Maurice McCabe was leaked. I asked two questions on it in the House and the Taoiseach said nothing. The first day I asked if there were significant discussions in the Cabinet about the penalty points dossier. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, caused the O'Mahoney report to be referred to the Road Safety Authority, which the then Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, did not want. Although Ministers were aware there were very serious and substantive issues within the Department of Justice and Equality, the Taoiseach chose to turn a blind eye to much of it for too long.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to adhere to the Chair. He is over time. Could he ask his supplementary question please?

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

The former Deputy, Dermot Ahern, was aware of it for eight years.

Deputy Micheál Martin

He was not. The Deputy is wrong.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Martin is over time. Could he please put his question or sit down?

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Deputy should not use smear tactics. I am dealing with the facts as per Mr. Guerin's report; that is all. It is well known that the O'Mahoney report went to the Road Safety Authority.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not listening to me. He is over his time. Could he please put his supplementary question?

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach did not answer my original question. I have already asked the cause of Deputy Shatter's resignation as Minister. I have asked about the ramifications for the Department of Justice and Equality arising from chapters 19 and 20 of the Guerin report and whether the Taoiseach has received any formal response from the Department about those conclusions. Does the Taoiseach accept the whole Government is responsible for the inertia and the fact that these issues were allowed to drift for two years without any significant intervention by the Government?

The Taoiseach

As I said, Deputy Martin knows it all.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

That is a bit childish.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

That is a pathetic response.

The Taoiseach

It was two years after the former Minister, Deputy Shatter, raised the questions arising from Donegal that the then Government was forced into establishing the Morris tribunal at an exorbitant cost to the taxpayer, following which little was enacted.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

So the Taoiseach has learned nothing.

The Taoiseach

The Government made a number of decisions today.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Could the Taoiseach answer the questions?

The Taoiseach

The Guerin report was exceptionally critical of GSOC, and was critical of the Department of Justice and Equality and the Garda Síochána regarding the analysis, operation and management of these matters. Therefore, when this important matter was raised here, we took it very seriously and acted speedily, decisively and clearly regarding what must be done. We need a Garda force with high morale, where people can see the gardaí who protect citizens from criminal activities have the full credibility, trust and belief of the people. The mechanics of the operation must be examined and that is why the Government today made six formal decisions which will be followed through, including the competition for the post of Garda Commissioner and the independent Garda authority, the second meeting of which will take place next week.

Deputy Shatter was one of the finest Ministers for Justice and Equality we have had for very many years.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

And the Taoiseach sacked him.

The Taoiseach

I dealt with the question on a number of occasions last week and I will take no smart comments from Deputy Healy-Rae.

Deputy Luke 'Ming' Flanagan

Yes, teacher.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are way over time.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

We do not want the Taoiseach to come out of his bubble. Let him stay inside it for a while.

The Taoiseach

We have decided to put in place a protocol for dealing with numerous historical and legacy issues that are beginning to arrive on the desks of Deputies and Ministers. We need to deal with those. We need to put in place a process between the Minister and the Attorney General for dealing with those historical and legacy cases. As I pointed out, the Cabinet agreed to the Minister's recommendation today that there be a review of the status and strengthening of the operation of GSOC. It is very important to have a system that is able to withstand and deal with the range of issues that come before it. The Government will proceed with the Minister speedily to specify timelines so people can see the progress towards having a justice system, Garda Síochána and GSOC that measure up to today's standards.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

That is very informative.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Taoiseach said he has acted decisively and speedily, but he has not. Although he said that following the Guerin report there is a need for root and branch analysis, in the last few months he defended the same justice system, attacked the Opposition for asking very legitimate questions, said time out of mind that the former Minister for Justice and Equality was doing a great job reforming the justice system, and strongly rejected suggestions the former Minister or the former Garda Commissioner should resign. The Taoiseach and the Government bear responsibility for what happened. The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Rabbitte, met Sergeant McCabe two years ago. Sergeant McCabe wrote to the Taoiseach a long time ago. Deputy Shatter, therefore, was not alone.

Citizens were rightly shocked by the findings of the Guerin report, which clearly vindicated Sergeant McCabe and former Garda John Wilson, who have performed a great service for the State. I welcome the fact that Sergeant McCabe now has access to the PULSE system. Last week, I wrote to the acting Garda Commissioner on the issue. Sergeant McCabe should be allowed to get on with his normal Garda duties. The Taoiseach has a chance to reflect on this. Would he, on behalf of the State and the Government, apologise to Sergeant McCabe for the way he was treated for doing his duty?

The Taoiseach

I have already stated on many occasions that those people who have issues which need to be brought to public attention in doing a service will be treated with the respect it deserves. The Guerin report has found that, in particular, Sergeant McCabe has been vindicated in the issues he raised. Arising from this report the Government has responded in acting decisively and clearly to have a commission of investigation into the issues that were raised in the report. As the Deputy is aware, Mr. Guerin's report indicates for each of these, with one exception, that the case warrants further inquiry in an appropriate forum in the public interest. The Government has responded to that clearly and decisively and it will set out the terms of reference that would be appropriate for the scale of this commission of investigation because of the nature of the cases it would cover.

Deputy Adams is aware that at some time in the future - I cannot say when - Mr. Justice Cooke will also present his report, and it would be appropriate, as Deputy Clare Daly mentioned on a number of occasions last week, that instead of having a long list of commissions of inquiry, it would be appropriate to consider what is the best structure to deal with the issues that warrant investigation in these cases.

I have already spoken of the importance of the right of people to bring issues to public notice that should be brought to such notice. The Protected Disclosures Bill 2013, or the whistleblowers legislation, will resume on Committee Stage in the House tomorrow. In that regard I have no problem apologising to Sergeant McCabe for the issues he raised and because his raising of these matters was not dealt with more speedily in the first instance.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I very much welcome the Taoiseach's apology, although what happened to Sergeant McCabe was much more than what he just acknowledged. It is disappointing as if the Taoiseach had indicated that the Government accepts it did not handle the issue properly, it would have been a very good signal. We wish the Minister well in her work and we will support her in a critical way in doing that work. If the Taoiseach had accepted that the Government had a responsibility but did not handle the matter properly, it would have been a very good signal for a new beginning of policing.

As the scandal developed much focus has been on people who lost their jobs but the real victims are the ordinary citizens whose rights were undermined. We cannot get away from the Government's failure to recognise the gravity of these issues when they were brought to the Taoiseach's attention both by whistleblowers and Deputies from this side of the House. The Taoiseach ridiculed what we said, dismissed our comments and actively undermined our right to bring forward what were quite legitimate concerns. He sought to undermine the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, and he inaccurately quoted the Garda Síochána Act on a number of occasions to misrepresent GSOC's responsibility. He had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, to deal with the issue.

The Taoiseach should not get me wrong, as it is good that this happened and there is support for the need for a new and independent Garda authority and the strengthening of GSOC. We have been suggesting this to the Government since we came into this Dáil. I warned the Taoiseach that his unquestioning support for the former Minister for Justice and Equality would bring his own office into disrepute. As he stumbles from one debacle to another - with a scandal per day arising from unfair water taxes to this policing issue - will the Taoiseach acknowledge there is no energy, commitment or intent in the Government for the type of root and branch reform required to deal with the lack of regulation? This concerns charities, banker bonuses and the need for a new beginning with policing. In the second part of the Government's term, it would be a good start to stand up and say how there is an appetite to tackle these issues and that it has learned a lesson from this.

The Taoiseach

I do not accept that from the Deputy or anybody else. In the three years in which the Government has been in office, more was achieved than in the previous 16 years.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

What?

Deputy Sean Fleming

Dream on.

The Taoiseach

I point to the catastrophic economic consequences left behind by our predecessors in government, which left our bond interest rates at 15% in July 2011; they are now 2.79%. Approximately 300,000 people lost employment, which brought catastrophic economic consequences on their backs, but we have reversed that process to a point where we are now creating at least 1,000 jobs per week. We still have a long way to go but the Deputy should not come here to portray this position as akin to what it was three years ago.

I do not accept Deputy Adams's assertions that we have not acted decisively on this issue. This is a House of the Oireachtas and of the people. When these issues were raised in this House with me-----

Deputy Gerry Adams

They were dismissed.

The Taoiseach

-----on behalf of the Government, I stated we would treat them with the gravity and the seriousness they deserved. From that we appointed Mr. Guerin, who has produced his report, and we have now confirmed a formal decision to have a commission of investigation into these matters. With the County Cork Bailey case and other related matters, after two weeks we had a Supreme Court judge, Mr. Fennelly, to chair the commission of investigation. That matter has dragged on for nearly 30 years with nothing done about it. The Deputy has come here and argued that we do not act decisively or clearly-----

Deputy Gerry Adams

I have a mandate to be here.

The Taoiseach

-----but I beg to differ. The Deputy has continued to reference my quoting the wrong section of the Garda Síochána Act. I quoted the wrong section and I apologised for that to the House. The Deputy accepted the apology then but of course he does not want to do so now.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Hear, hear.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

He has a very selective memory.

Deputy Luke 'Ming' Flanagan

One of the biggest feathers in the cap of europhiles when they tell me the wonderful benefits of being a member of the EU is that farmers in the country got much money through the Common Agricultural Policy but the average and ordinary citizen knows who got this, as it was the rancher rather than the ordinary farmer. Under the old Common Agricultural Policy, which is still in place, the top 2,000 farmers got over €150 million but the bottom 52,000 farmers got €125 million. This is socialism for the rich, as it cannot really be called anything else, but the Government is standing by it.

I understand the Government is moving in the right direction through an idea called "approximation", and there have been many reports in the press about how the small farmer is getting more money. Of course they are getting more money, as if they were to get a cent more, such a statement would be correct, and that is pretty much all they are getting. Under the new system, the top 2,000 farmers will get €135 million and the bottom 52,000 farmers will get in the region of €140 million. That is hardly a sea change. The EU agricultural Commissioner, Mr. Ciolo, has a proposal and under his "flattened" system, payments to farmers in Mayo, for example, would increase by €30 million. Under the system being backed by the Government, they will only increase by €4 million.

With regard to individual farmers, we have heard that small farmers will get more, but how much more will that be? A farmer on €36 per hectare will see a rise to €149 per hectare, and this is good news. The farmer on €643 per hectare will be reduced to €543. That does not change the position we have now, and which will exist in future, whereby a small farmer in Mayo will get €390 less per hectare than a rich farmer in Kilkenny. On top of that, we have the greening scandal, with a third of the payment going to environmental factors.

Deputy Frank Feighan

Perhaps the Deputy should run for Europe.

Deputy Luke 'Ming' Flanagan

There will not be equal pay for equal work under this system. Why is the Taoiseach not supporting the small farmer in Mayo and why is the farmer in Kilkenny being subsidised. Why are the Larry Goodmans of the world being subsidised before the people of the Taoiseach's county?

Deputy Timmy Dooley

What about the farmers in Kildare?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

He must not want any votes in County Meath.

An Ceann Comhairle

Settle down.

The Taoiseach

I saw the Deputy's poster at Malin Head so I know he is interested in the small farmers of the west.

Deputy Luke 'Ming' Flanagan

That is in the north.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for referencing the small farmers of my native county. He forgets one factor in his analysis of the agricultural sector, which is productivity. The original intention from many of the former eastern bloc countries was to have a flat rate payment across the board.

Were that to happen productivity in this country would drop drastically. One cannot equate a 300 acre farm in west Waterford which has an intensive level of dairy production with 300 acres in many parts of my native county in terms of their capacity to produce. The Deputy seems to forget that. He also seems to forget that the negotiations, which opened under very difficult circumstances for Ireland’s EU Presidency last year, were not expected to be successful in the first instance, yet the conclusion was a €12.5 billion investment from 2014 to 2020, as a result of which the incomes of the more productive farmers at the higher level were reduced and that was given to the bottom 50,000 plus farmers to raise their incomes. A further €100 million was added specifically for the Border, midlands and western, BMW, region.

The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney, has also introduced a replacement for the environmental scheme, which is not as extensive or as flush as one might like it to be but which is a big help to the small farmers the Deputy mentioned. I do not accept his assertion that we should change the nature of the reform that has taken place. It is a question of giving an opportunity to the small farmers at the lower end of the scale to increase their incomes and to have an incentive to get into farming, which the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, has dealt with in the past two budgets through the tax regime. The Deputy needs to understand too that we cannot disincentivise productivity. He is aware that when EU quotas are abolished next year, this country will become the most productive agrisector country on the planet. Productivity is an essential and core ingredient of that development because the land will not produce itself unless it is worked and worked well and unless farming practices are of the highest standard, which I am happy to say applies almost universally now in Ireland.

Deputy Luke 'Ming' Flanagan

The small farmers who are productive and who have to work twice as hard as the people on the big payments will be kind of insulted by what the Taoiseach just said. One can also be on a small payment and be productive. If one is getting €500,000 one does not have to try quite so hard to be productive.

Under the last round of Common Agricultural Policy payments, according to George Lee – the Taoiseach might remember him, he was the one with the brains in his party - €4.5 billion was spent off-farm. What will be done to prevent that happening again? The money was intended to support farmers but the rich farmer has bought himself an apartment in Croatia, or maybe in Bulgaria, or a second apartment in Dublin, and that money is not going into farming. My proposal would put money in the pockets of the small farmer and if the Government does this, it is to be hoped the next time I visit Castlebar town that I will not have to talk to one shopkeeper after another telling me they are on their knees and that it is not a question of if but when they close.

I suggest the Taoiseach gets out of his bubble, gets into reality, goes back to his town, where he was elected, and wakes up to the fact that he is crippling its people in many ways. This is one way because the small farmer spends every last cent locally. The man getting this payment is sitting beside Lake Garda sipping his cocktail. Who does the Taoiseach support? Him?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

That man is sitting beside Deputy Flanagan. He should talk to Deputy Wallace about that. The vineyards get single farm payments.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Deputy Wallace is looking for a plane ticket to China.

The Taoiseach

I know it is Deputy Flanagan’s intention to be at Lake Garda himself. Good luck to him with the electorate. They may well decide to send him there for more reasons than one. The Deputy is perfectly entitled to raise his case. The environmental scheme I mentioned, introduced by the Minister, puts €1.45 billion into the pockets of small farmers mostly and smaller entities, because they have had difficulty measuring up here. There is also a special allocation for those small farmers from places the Deputy has forgotten about or maybe never visited, €1.37 million for the farmers on the islands off our coast, and a further €250 million for the rural development scheme under the Leader programme, which also goes mostly to rural areas. On top of that there is a €395 million capital investment for farm buildings under Food Harvest 2020.

The Deputy raises a valid point about main street development in every town in the country. People these days have a clear choice. The retail sector has been hit hard and it is important that not only do shops offer a range of goods, competitive prices and good service, which they do, but they must also move online to give people choice. The young generation may well visit premises and buy on their mobile phones or from the Internet in many ways. I do not accept the Deputy’s view that the Government has not been concerned about, or has not delivered for, the agrisector in general, big and small. During the process of the negotiations at the European Presidency meetings, we deliberately restructured the payments so that the small farmer at the lower end of the scale gets the benefit and that is taken off the big farmers at the top of the scale.

Deputy Flanagan does not want to recognise that producing a high quality product is essential for this economy and is responsible in the main for hundreds of thousands of jobs. That is why the Kerry Group is investing €100 million in Naas and Glanbia is investing very heavily on the Kilkenny-Carlow border. That is why there is movement in respect of land acquisition and retention, passing farms on to younger farmers, and why agricultural colleges are booked out by young farmers who want to get onto their courses. They see a very bright future in the agrisector, even if the Deputy does not.