Topical Issue Debate

Foreign Conflicts

Deputy Mick Wallace

Writing in The Guardian recently, Owen Jones commented:

In the build-up to the catastrophic invasion of Iraq, it was invoked by Colin Powell, then US secretary of state. "You are going to be the proud owner of 25 million people," he reportedly told George W Bush. "You will own all their hopes, aspirations and problems." But while many of these military interventions have left nations shattered, western governments have resembled the customer who walks away whistling, hoping no one has noticed the mess left behind.

Unfortunately, the media have been all too complicit in allowing them to leave the scene.

Iraq may have been a blood-drenched disaster and Afghanistan a grinding military and political failure, but the so-called "humanitarian intervention" in Libya was supposed to have been different. The UN-authorised air campaign in 2011 is often lauded as a shining example of successful foreign intervention. The initial mandate - to protect civilians - was exceeded by nations who had only recently been selling arms to Gadaffi, and the bombing evolved into regime-change. Today's Libya is overrun by militias and faces a deteriorating human rights situation, mounting chaos that is infecting other countries, growing internal splits, and even the threat of civil war. As journalist, Seumas Milne, pointed out in The Guardian last week, the west seized the chance to intervene in Libya to get a grip on the Arab uprisings. NATO air power in support of the Libyan rebellion increased the death toll by a factor of about ten, but played the decisive role in the war, which meant no coherent political or military force was ready to fill the vacuum. Three years on, thousands are held without trial, there are heavy curbs on dissent and institutions are close to collapse.

Fear is growing of an all-out war between militias aligned with the Islamist-dominated parliament and forces led by a former general named Khalifa Haftar, who was reportedly once trained by the CIA. Haftar has accused the government of fostering terrorism and is calling for an emergency administration to oversee elections this month. Haftar, a former general under Gadaffi, says he wants to rid Libya of Islamists and led an assault against the militant groups in Benghazi. Recently, forces allied to him took control of Libya's parliament building in the capital, Tripoli. At least 100 people have died since the fighting broke out. This effort to overthrow the elected government is supported by the US. The US ambassador to Libya, Deborah Jones, said recently that she would not condemn the actions of General Haftar, whose forces stormed the parliament on 18 May.

Most experts agree that Libya needs assistance in strengthening its central government and the rule of law. Human Rights Watch stated recently that "Unless the international community focuses on the need for urgent assistance to the justice and security systems, Libya risks the collapse of its already weak state institutions and further deterioration of human rights in the country". The US is currently training special forces in areas as diverse as Tripoli, Bulgaria, the Canary Islands and elsewhere for use in places like Libya. In what has all the hallmarks of mission creep, a small number of US soldiers are being sent to Tripoli to begin training troops, but should the US be the one in charge of the delicate process of building a cohesive security force to combat violent, fractious, armed groups, many of them drawn from the very militias that destabilised Libya in the first place? No wonder western governments and journalists who hailed the success of this intervention are so silent.

The Irish Government needs to take a very strong position - one of neutrality - in this area. We have been far too closely aligned with the US and NATO forces which have wrecked havoc worldwide and are responsible for immense destruction and the deaths of many people. There is a serious case to be looked at with regard to how the Security Council works. In the past 25 years with the veto system, China and France have vetoed three resolutions, Russia four, the UK ten and the US 43. Surely the time has come for the UN to take the role of the policeman, not the US because it is leaving a trail of destruction behind it.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (Deputy Paschal Donohoe)

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. The current political and security situation in Libya, as the Deputy has outlined, is both highly complex and precarious and remains a matter of deep concern, both for Ireland and for the international community generally. Since the fall of Colonel Gadaffi in 2011, serious difficulties, including a weak and divided central government, impotent defence institutions and a proliferation of militias vying for influence, have undermined cohesion in the country. Overall, two broad political camps have emerged, representing Islamist factions of varied stripes on the one hand and a loose alliance of anti-Islamist nationalists, federalists and tribal militias on the other. This ongoing instability has understandably led to rising popular discontent and frustration with the political process.

Recent months have been particularly worrying. Blockades of oil ports by militias in the east of the country have starved the government of vital revenue. The government's perceived poor handling of attempts by militias to illegally export this oil resulted in the General National Congress, GNC, sacking former Prime Minister Ali Zeidan in March, while his replacement, interim Prime Minister Abdullah al-Thinni, resigned following an attack on his family home in the middle of April. Somewhat controversially, due to doubts over the circumstances of his election, Ahmed Maiteeq, a prominent businessman with links to the Muslim Brotherhood, has now been nominated as Prime Minister-designate, the third Prime Minister so far this year and the fifth in the past two and a half years.

Recent weeks have seen a further deterioration. On 16 and 17 May, forces loyal to the renegade, anti-Islamist, General Khalifa Haftar launched an extensive air and ground operation in Benghazi against Islamist militias, reportedly killing some 70 people. Two days later, General Haftar sent his paramilitary force, the Libyan National Army, to attack the parliament building in Tripoli, precipitating heavy clashes which resulted in two dead and 60 wounded.

Both Ireland and the EU are extremely concerned at the repeated use of violence in Libya, and this latest deterioration in particular. As was stated in reply to a parliamentary question last week, Ireland strongly condemns the actions of all militias in Libya and calls on all sides to refrain from further use of force and urgently to return to dialogue and reconciliation as a means of restoring stability. The EU has also voiced its strong concerns over the current situation through a declaration on behalf of all 28 member states, which issued on 24 May. The declaration called on all sides to refrain from the use of force and to address differences by political means. It also emphasised the importance of an inclusive Libyan political dialogue and encouraged all parties to actively co-operate with the UN Special Mission in Libya in reaching agreement on a political roadmap for the transition period.

High Representative Ashton last month appointed a special envoy for Libya, Mr. Bernardino Leon, to further co-ordinate and enhance the EU's actions in support of the Libyan people. The special envoy visited Tripoli on 24 and 25 May and is actively engaged in efforts to promote urgent dialogue within Libya and a political way forward out of the current crisis. The EU is also supporting the process of transition and post-conflict reconstruction within Libya through the EU Border Assistance Mission aimed at improving and developing the security of the country's borders.

There is no doubting the desire of the Libyan people to fashion a new democratic dispensation within their country. Fresh elections may be held in late June, and if these can proceed with broad agreement, it may provide an opportunity to promote that greater internal dialogue within Libya which is so urgently needed. Similarly, work on preparation of a new constitution should proceed, following the election of a constitutional drafting assembly in April. Ireland and the European Union will continue to offer all possible political support and assistance that they can to support the transition to democratic rule in Libya.

Deputy Mick Wallace

Three years ago when Prime Minister Cameron, former President Sarkozy and President Obama joined forces to bomb Libya, the Government here thought they were doing the right thing. Will the Minister of State not admit at this stage that it was a serious mistake to intervene in the affairs of Libya because it has caused many more problems than it has solved? With regard to the notion of humanitarian intervention, unfortunately, world powers are pretty selective when they choose to act and not to act and, more often than not, they are guided by self-interest rather than out of concern for the local people.

When Serbia was bombed at the end of the 1990s, shortly afterwards the South Summit of 133 states convened in April 2000 and rejected "the so-called 'right' of humanitarian intervention, which has no legal basis in the United Nations Charter or in the general principles of international law", yet we see it being used time and again, in particular, by the US and Britain.

When NATO bombed Serbia, it argued that it was within its area of jurisdiction. It tried to disown what was going on in south-eastern Turkey in the 1990s, however, where Kurds were being slaughtered thanks to the military support of the Clinton Administration with the aid of other NATO powers.

The selective application of the responsibility to protect principle is stomach-churning. There was, of course, no thought of applying that principle to the Iraq sanctions administered by the Security Council, which were condemned as "genocidal" by two directors of the oil for food programme, Denis Halliday and Hans von Sponeck, both of whom resigned in protest. Mr. von Sponeck's detailed study of the horrendous impact of the sanctions has been under a virtual ban in the United States and United Kingdom, the primary agents of the programme. Similarly, there is no thought today of protecting the people of Gaza - also a UN responsibility - who are being denied fundamental human rights.

In another domain, there is no thought of invoking even the most innocuous prescriptions of responsibility to protect in response to massive levels of starvation in poor countries. While the UN estimates that the number facing hunger has passed 1 billion, its World Food Programme has just announced major cutbacks in aid as a result of rich countries reducing their meagre contributions and giving priority to their continued support for the arms industry and the bailing out of banks. Ireland must take a different position on all of these matters, instead of aligning ourselves with these people.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I thank the Deputy again for raising the grave humanitarian difficulty that is occurring in Libya. It is important to consider the events which led to the UN making the intervention it did. At the time, the then ruler of Libya, Colonel Gadaffi, was threatening attack and assault against the people of Benghazi. He was, in effect, threatening genocide against people inside his own borders. If the international community had not taken action in that period, it is likely that some voices would be criticising it now for not doing so. Deputy Wallace referred to the number of times the veto has been used at the UN Security Council. In recognition of the gigantic threat of violence that was posed by the Libyan ruler against his own people at the time, the Security Council passed a resolution authorising the action that was taken.

It is a regular feature of our engagement in this House that the Deputy will point to an awful difficulty that is occurring and I will ask what he would have the international community do about it. What would he do in a situation where a ruler is threatening genocide against his own people?

Deputy Mick Wallace

I would not bomb them.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

If the international community had not taken action against Gadaffi at that time, would the Deputy not be standing here accusing it of displaying double standards? I emphasise again that the action that was taken was to prevent the slaughter of people in Libya. The current situation, as the Deputy pointed out, is one of grave difficulty within the borders of that country. The European Union has appointed a special envoy to co-ordinate the efforts of the different countries working to deal with the difficulties. The sole European Union agency presence in the country is the EU Border Assistance Mission, EUBAM, which is doing the very work to improve the governance in regard to the country's borders for which the Deputy has called. That work is ongoing. If the elections take place in the coming weeks, as I hope they will, and when the country's rulers begin drafting a constitution which might lead to the type of reconciliation we all want to see, I assure the Deputy that Ireland, the EU and the various international bodies will do all they can to make the situation more peaceful and ordered.

Emergency Planning

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to raise this issue and the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, for taking it. It is an issue of health and safety relating to one of the most vulnerable groups in our society, namely, children. I raise it following the discussions and dialogue I had with parents and teachers in the aftermath of the storm last February that wreaked so much havoc in different parts of the country. I take this opportunity to compliment all of those working in local authority emergency services and elsewhere who came to people's aid at that time. In the intervening period, we have all had a chance to consider what exactly happened on 12 February.

My specific concern relates to the process of planning for emergencies, particularly in respect of vulnerable cohorts such as children attending school. My understanding is that the national meteorological service would have known 24 hours in advance that Storm Darwin, a full-blown hurricane, was due to hit the west coast. For some reason, however, a decision was either taken or not taken which led to schools opening that morning, thereby putting children, parents and staff at an absolutely inordinate risk. In some cases, at the height of the storm, text messages were being sent out by schools to parents asking them to collect their children. There clearly was no joined-up plan for how vulnerable groups like children would be protected in these types of circumstances.

On 27 May, in response to a question from me, the Minister, Deputy Quinn, pointed to the Department's circular PBU04/04 as providing guidance to schools on this issue. Unfortunately, that circular offers no level of comfort to school managers, teachers or principals, offering little advice other than that schools should provide their details to the local authority. That is not really much good in the situation we saw on 12 February, where debris of every description was flying through the air, third level colleges were sending text messages to their students and staff to say that they were going into lock-down, and staff and principals of schools, particularly primary schools, were left to their own devices to figure out what they should do.

What is required is a single protocol for all schools. One of the first issues to be established is whether schools should open at all when a status red weather warning is issued and, if not, how that message can be communicated in a timely and effective manner. Leaving schools to their own devices in this type of situation is not good enough. There is anecdotal evidence of gates being taken off their piers and sent hurling through the air in the direction of parents collecting their children from school and of trees falling on cars. How much of this was avoidable? Although a man did lose his life while clearing up in the immediate aftermath of the storm, it was very fortunate that nobody died on the day itself. Indeed, based on what we saw unfolding on our television screens, it is a miracle there was not widespread loss of life and injury.

Leaving it to the devices of individual schools, managers, teachers and parents to decide whether or not it is safe to go out on an open road in the height of a hurricane to collect children is simply not good enough. We must have stricter protocols in place and the Department should take the lead in their introduction.

Minister for Education and Skills (Deputy Ruairí Quinn)

The particular issue raised by the Deputy in the event of a status red severe weather warning code is a matter of wider application as it is equally applicable to the community in general. The Government task force on emergency planning, in which my Department participates, co-ordinates the overall response to such events. Departmental officials are currently engaging with the task force on this specific issue with a view to informing future practice. Officials from the Department are also in consultation with the office of emergency planning of the Department of Defence to enable such protocols to be developed. They are due to meet shortly with the management bodies for the primary and post-primary sector to review the issues and identify which measures should be put in place.

The Department is aware that different weather events which warrant a red alert may have different implications for schools.

In particular, a weather event caused by severe wind, as experienced in January and February this year, presents particular issues in the potential damage it may cause and in the sudden and localised nature of such an event. The red alert arising from a wind event will be taken into account in any protocols which may be devised.

Currently, the lead agencies in regard to determining the appropriate emergency response in any region where there is an extreme weather event or other critical incident are the local authorities and blue light services. In that context, the Department of Education and Skills has brought to the attention of all schools departmental circular PBU 04/04, entitled contingency planning in the context of a national emergency. In particular, this circular requires schools to ensure up-to-date contact details are provided to the local authority.

The Department, as a member of the national co-ordinating committee, acts a conduit for information between the national authorities and the wider education sector at the time of such events. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government has the responsibility for leading the response to weather related emergencies. The Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport plays a major supporting role as transport is one of the main sectors affected by severe weather.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I thank the Minister for his reply. The Department of Education and Skills has a very important role in emergency planning. Some 24 hours before this hurricane hit the country, we had information at our disposal and yet we allowed schools to open the following morning and children from as young as five years of age were put into a lethal environment, which was totally unnecessary. Who in the meteorological service decided not to relay this information so that schools could be told to close? What have we learned from that to ensure it will not happen again? That is the crux of the issue.

I appreciate there is a circular but no county manager will send out a notification to close a school. There needs to be very clear protocols in place in the Department which can be given to school managers and principals telling them exactly what they should do. For instance, is it safe to ask parents by text message to collect their child in the middle of a hurricane, putting them at risk by asking them to travel on roads on which they do not know what kind of debris they will find? The child may well be safer left at school.

Luckily we are not in the throes of winter but this issue needs to be taken much more seriously. The Minister knows as well as I do that teaching principals in rural areas, which were the areas worst affected by this, have a million other things on their minds, but if they got a text message from a centralised service the night before telling them to close their schools the next day due to a red warning alert, it would be much more effective than a circular asking them to forward their details to the county manager who probably has been moved and has not taken down their names in the first place.

This is a very serious issue. We put children, their parents, their teachers and their minders at unnecessary risk when we knew 24 hours beforehand that there was a red alert and that a hurricane was going to hit the west coast. As a State, we did nothing about it. Luckily nobody was killed but will we be able to say that in the future? We need proper and robust protocols in place to ensure we are not putting vulnerable people at unnecessary risk.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter because I recall very acutely the events which took place. Our information systems are out of balance with each other and the Deputy's timely raising of this matter is helpful. We have much better long-term weather forecasts and the red alert system, which is relatively new, is certainly much more advanced than anything we had in the past ten to 15 years. However, we have not upgraded the system in terms of school decision-making and I will give the Deputy a particular example. I spoke to a principal in Kerry whose small school, although not that small, was severely damaged in that the roof came off part of it. In fairness to her, whose name I will not mention, she telephoned her diocesan education secretary to find out who was to make the decision or what was the decision, but quite frankly, people did not necessarily know.

We have a public private division in our education system in that the public side of it, controlled from this House, raises the money, sets the curriculum and so on, while the private side is the patron side. The main patron is the Roman Catholic Church which is responsible for 93% of all the primary schools in the country. Perhaps what the Deputy has alerted me to is to have a proper discussion with the Catholic Primary Schools Management Association to put protocols in place because it is not the function of the Department to instruct a school to close for whatever reason, although in this instance it was adverse weather.

Principals do not necessarily want to take that unilateral decision and they certainly need guidance. That is something which could be constructively raised with the new general secretary of the Catholic Primary Schools Management Association, Monsignor Tom Deenihan, to see what should happen. If the weather is bad, the CPSMA should make a decision and contact the principals and the boards of management to give principals the authority to notify parents in sufficient time that it is not safe to bring their children to school.

School Placement

Deputy Simon Harris

I am very grateful to the Ceann Comhairle for the opportunity to raise with the Minister for Education and Skills the need for him to provide an update on and to outline the provisions which have been put in place to provide additional school places in Greystones, Kilcoole and Delgany in County Wicklow.

We have a recurring problem in Greystones and in the wider Greystones area where in the run-up to September, there is a scramble for school places. Parents who have been very dutiful and have put their child's name on a list in accordance with the right protocols and timeframes find themselves not knowing whether their child will have a school place in the school of their choice and in the school with the ethos of their choice as is their right as parents. In some cases, they do not know whether their child will have a place in any school. As the Minister can imagine, this is causing huge worry and stress. I have dealt with this issue each September during my time in this House and before that. It is a recurring issue that needs to be addressed.

In fairness to the Minister and his Department, extra classrooms were provided for St. Laurence's national school, St. Patrick's national school and St. Kevin's national school. However what is happening is that we are falling into the sticking plaster solution where every year the Department meets the eight representatives of the eight schools in that catchment area. The principals and the boards of management will acknowledge that the Department has been very helpful in trying to provide temporary solutions but they are only solutions to get them to the following September.

We need to engage in more long-term planning and my colleagues at local level - members of Wicklow County Council and members of the former Greystones Town Council - have expressed this concern to the Minister and to his Department. We need a longer-term solution. This is not a reflection on the Minister, who I have always found to be very helpful and forthcoming with information, but the answers to parliamentary questions I have submitted and which have been answered in the Minister's name have been less than forthcoming and have been mealy-mouthed. I submitted a parliamentary question on this issue on 7 May 2014, Question No. 96, but I was not satisfied with the answer which provided me with no information. I submitted another question three weeks later, Question No. 236 on 27 May 2014, asking a series of specific questions. The words matter and I do not just include them to make the question look long. Most of the elements of the question were ignored. My office was told by civil servants in the Minister's Department to stop contacting them as it would not help resolve the matter.

As a public representative, Member of Dáil Éireann and a supporter of this Government, I have been inundated with requests from worried parents - neighbours and friends in our community - wanting to know if their child will have a school place. There should be a better system in place to engage with parents and provide information. No parent should have to go to his or her Deputy to find out what the situation is in regard to a school place, but if he or she does, the Deputy should be able to find that information quite easily. Will the Department look at some sort of collaborative role in regard to making information publicly available on websites in terms of the number of places provided within a catchment area vis-à-vis the number of children expected to need to a school place this year? When I ask questions about what action is being taken and when the review will be complete, it would be helpful if that information could be provided because some of the questions I am asking are also being asked by the local schools. We have to do better.

Ultimately, we need another school in Greystones, and I have written to the Minister about this.

The reason for that is because the existing schools simply do not have the space to expand adequately. Based on population figures, the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government has advised the area is to grow in population and we will have a population bulge in the future. We need a new school in the area of Greystones known as Charlesland. Will the Minister provide details on the situation that will arise in September and also take a longer term look to ensure we do not have the same problem again next year that has arisen in the past two to three years?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I will respond directly to what Deputy Harris said, which might be a bit more constructive. We have a growth in population that will not peak until 2026. The problem is aggravated in many areas, including the area to which Deputy Harris referred, for all the normal reasons, but it will take time to put a response in place to my satisfaction and that will require support and confidence from the educational partners. What is required is some form of co-ordinated regional planning at local authority level or education and training board level to see what resources exist and what can be utilised. While we have a system of forward planning, there has been a significant population increase in the area to which Deputy Harris referred and the growth is happening at a faster speed. Deputy Harris might talk to the local authorities on the matter, to his party’s councillors and, following the local elections, the new education and training boards.

The second issue relates to admissions policy and enrolment which is currently unsatisfactory. A total of 80% of schools have the accommodation to offer a place to parents who apply to the 3,200 primary schools and approximately 800 post-primary schools, but 20% are oversubscribed in terms of their capacity to offer a place. Added to that, there is no proper system of waiting list or regulations. I have a document on admissions policy in draft form which I hope to get finalised and to bring before the House. It was a consultative document which has already gone to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection. The suggestion is that people who move within the country or come to the country for the first time are excluded from local schools because they are not in the know and they do not realise that in some cases when a child is born one must have his or her name put down on a waiting list for school X or Y. The policy of first come, first served seems like an objective and reasonable one without favouritism for parents seeking education for their children, but it does provide a very strong advantage to parents who live in a particular area who know that they have to register their child for primary school education in virtually the week the child is born, and even then there is no guarantee of a place. We have not even begun to tackle the issue of getting a child into a school whose ethos is one parents want. That is another issue that requires discussion.

I suggest to Deputy Harris that the Department is more than happy to liaise, and does liaise, with local authorities, but the way forward is to get the education and training boards, in conjunction with the Department and local authorities, to work together. In the coming weeks 12 members of the Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board will be nominated by the local councillors and there will be two staff members and five other representative members. That is the way forward in terms of planning and making sure that we are making the best use of the existing space in the educational infrastructure.

I do not wish to sound as if the Department has a grand plan to take over the private patronage role of the schools. It does not, but we must ensure co-ordinated planning that provides and ensures space is available. We are not in a position to do that as satisfactorily as we would like.

Deputy Simon Harris

I thank the Minister for his response and for responding directly to the issues I raised. I have a problem with the official response that the Minister did not read in that the Department gave me a history lesson in terms of the places it did provide. The class spaces the Minister provided are very much appreciated but they have been taken. The schools have provided the Department with as much flexibility as they can within the existing campus sites in terms of accommodating additional students. I still do not know, but much more importantly, the parents of children in Greystones, Delgany and Kilcoole who do not have a place today still do not know whether they will have a place.

The line from the Department which has been frustrating me for some time is that the schools in the area are engaging with each other in the context of addressing enrolment demand for September 2014. Could we try to put some meat on what exactly that means? I would be extremely grateful if in the coming days somebody in the Department could liaise with me and the other Deputies for the Wicklow constituency to explain exactly where we are at, because this is a very time-sensitive situation as schools will shortly shut down for the summer and we must resolve the issue.

I also wish to refer to the need for an additional school or for an existing school to move to a larger site in the Charlesland area. That is something the Minister might ask his officials to examine. The Minister is bang on the money in terms of what we need to do at a local level. As part of local government reform, those whom we elect at local level must accept the responsibilities they have, but they must also be given more responsibilities in terms of ensuring there are adequate school places and sites and that there is a waiting list structure. It is not adequate to be told that the schools are still working on the issue because September 2014 is very nearly here and we need to be able to give clarity to parents as to whether their child will have a place in any school, in particular a place in a school of their choice. The Minister shares my view that plurality and a choice of ethos is important to parents as the primary educators of children in this country.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I will not comment specifically on Deputy Harris’s area because I am not as well informed as he is, but in some areas there is close co-operation between the various primary schools in order that people know who has applied and there is a certain amount of sharing of information. However, that is not always the case. In fact, at the other end of the spectrum one has schools beating the bushes trying to find children that they can bring into a smaller school to maintain their teacher numbers. Somewhere between those two extremes we must find a way forward that can take the stress away from parents. I refer primarily to primary school places. In some cases parents will not know for some time whether their four year old will get a place this September.

The situation is due in the first instance to massive growth in population numbers. A White Paper was published by the Department of Education and Skills in 1998 which said that the big task facing the primary school system in Ireland was managing the decline in population. We had fewer than 480,000 schoolchildren and all the projections were that the population would decline. We now have 525,000 and growing. That means we must find extra space. It also means building bigger schools. There is a certain reluctance among some to contemplate that. One can provide far more accommodation in a much more effective and economic way with a two stream or three stream school, which is 24 classes or more. Some people do not want to have their child in such a school or say that it was not the kind of school they attended. My primary function, and that of the Department, is to make sure that no parent is deprived of a school place in the first instance and preferably a school place of their choice. Providing the accommodation in the first instance must be a priority.

Crime Investigation

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

My Topical Issue matter follows a second report in The Sunday Times newspaper about the challenges faced by the computer crime investigation unit of An Garda Síochána. The challenges, in terms of resources and the apparent poor level of modern technology to keep up with changes, has led to a significant backlog. It is reported that there is a backlog of 1,000 cases. I hope the Minister can comment on the matter.

A court case was referenced in the article in The Sunday Times by the journalist, John Mooney. He referred to a case in Tipperary that was of a level 5 category, which is the most heinous type of child pornography. The case fell through because of the delays in coming to prosecution.

There is significant concern in child protection sectors that anybody allegedly looking at level 5 child pornography would get off because of resource issues.

Based on current resources, the reported backlog of more than 1,000 cases would take three years to clear. We need urgent assurance from the Minister that the technology, which apparently is antiquated, will be brought up to spec as soon as possible and that the necessary personnel resources will be deployed. The Minister, as a former Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, will appreciate we need to send a clear signal immediately that when we get intelligence, and apparently we receive intelligence on an ongoing basis from our international policing partners and the states with which we work on these matters, we have the ability to move quickly and act on this intelligence. We cannot have a situation where persons inclined to view the most heinous type of child pornography would have a sense they may get off due to resource or technology issues. Will we immediately address this? I call on the Minister to make a statement on the reports. I appreciate the Minister is new in the position and as such I will give her a fair wind. As these matters have been brought to her attention will she move to address them as soon as possible?

Apparently two offenders were convicted in 2012, but in 2003 there were 38. I do not think anybody believes there has been a dramatic decline in these types of offences and due to the reports the concern is that there are resources issues in the computer crime investigation unit and the antiquated type of equipment with which it works. This is backed up by assertions of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, AGSI, that we are losing the battle against these people who are serious threat to our society. I ask for urgent reassurance from the Minister.

Minister for Justice and Equality (Deputy Frances Fitzgerald)

I thank the Deputy for raising this important matter and I am of course aware of the recent reports regarding the investigation of child pornography cases. At the outset let me assure the Deputy I am determined that we do all we possibly can to counteract the sexual exploitation of children. Very properly, we already have significant penalties for child pornography offences under the Child Trafficking and Pornography Act 1998.

When this matter came to my attention, I immediately sought a report from the Acting Garda Commissioner on the question of any backlogs in this area, including with respect to proposals to address any difficulties which have arisen. As Deputies will appreciate, specific investigative strategies are a matter for An Garda Síochána but I consider it essential, as does the Deputy, that gardaí are in a position to investigate these crimes effectively. I have now received a preliminary report on the matter from the Acting Commissioner which addresses the role of the Garda computer crime investigation unit, CCIU, and its central input in the investigation of these kinds of crimes.

A review of processes at the CCIU has been conducted with a view to reducing the time taken to conduct the forensic examination of suspect computer media in the context of seeking to identify evidence of child pornography images. Arising from this, and in the light of consultations with the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and senior counsel, new standard operating guidelines were put in place in October 2013. The guidelines seek to ensure that relevant procedures are as efficient as possible, consistent with what is required to support effective prosecutions. I am further advised that all examinations of suspect media are now conducted according to these guidelines. The aim of the guidelines is to ensure effective action is taken in a timely way to deal with this issue.

The phenomenon of Internet and computer crime, with its transnational dimension, presents enormous challenges to police forces. I am informed that approximately 70% of crime in this area is transnational. It is also challenging with respect to the deployment of resources to tackle this issue. It is complex, complicated and a continuously emerging area for An Garda Síochána to deal with and cuts across a number of other areas as well as child pornography.

The Acting Garda Commissioner has directed an immediate comprehensive review and a strategic realignment of capacity to deal with crimes of this nature, including in the area of child pornography. This will involve liaison with international partners because so much of it is transnational and a key part is linking with partners in Europe and worldwide so national experts can come together to figure out the best collaborative approaches to deal with this type of crime.

I welcome the important review done in this area by the Acting Garda Commissioner and following examination of the report which I received today, I intend to meet her to discuss the issues raised by the Deputy and, in particular, to ensure that child pornography cases are pursued rigorously and quickly. I will raise with the Acting Commissioner the points made by Deputy Mac Lochlainn in his contribution today.

The challenges faced in detecting and prosecuting this type of computer crime are very real and are faced by law enforcement throughout the world. In more than any other area, however, when it comes to the shocking abuse of children that child pornography represents, I will be insistent that we come up with strategies to ensure these cases are dealt with in a timely way and that the various obstacles mentioned by the Deputy are overcome.

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. As I stated, I will meet the Acting Garda Commissioner shortly to discuss the detail of the report and see what are the implications for dealing with these cases quickly and effectively.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

I thank the Minister for her statement and her efforts to address this. As I stated, what will be of profound concern to the public are reports that there is a possibility a person responsible for level 5 child pornography, which is the most heinous category, would not face the full rigours of the law due to an inordinate delay over a number of years in taking the case to prosecution. If there is a backlog of 1,000 cases my concern and that of the public is that there are more persons, who should face the full rigours of the law, who may get off through an alleged loophole. Will the Minister seek a summary of the cases and give assurance today with regard to timeframes?

If there is a backlog, as reported, of 1,000 cases how quickly can we be assured it will be dealt with? When will the new technology be put in place? With regard to modern anti-encryption software, we know the technology deployed by the very important unit of An Garda Síochána is not up to spec in dealing with the issue. It is antiquated. When will the new equipment be in place? How many new personnel resources will be required? Will there be more people who may, if they go to court, get off because of inordinate time delays? What assurances can the Minister gave? Is she willing to give an update to the Houses in a few weeks regarding progress in this area?

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

These are precisely the issues I intend to raise with the Acting Garda Commissioner. There is no doubt the scale of the policing challenge is enormous when one considers all of the electronic storage devices which are seized by gardaí in contemporary investigations. They complete an average of 450 cases per year. If one looks at what is selling in the world of technology and computers, the fact that storage potential is getting much larger and the amount of work emerging in the area, it becomes clear that there are resource implications. While I am not in a position today to discuss any specific cases, I take the points raised by the Deputy. I will meet the assistant Garda commissioner who is looking at the strategic realignment of resources. I am happy to update the Deputy on the outcome of this. I will examine a number of cases and ascertain precisely what is happening on them at present.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Wednesday, 4 Jun 2014