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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 9 Jul 2014

Vol. 847 No. 2

National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Report Stage (Resumed)

Debate resumed on amendment No. 16:
In page 41, lines 11 to 15, to delete all words from and including “, and” in line 11 down to and including “2010)” in line 15.
- (Deputy Ruth Coppinger)

We wish to excise from this Bill further interference from the bureaucracy of the European Union with regard to how issues like social housing should be addressed by excluding this stricture the Government puts in the Bill in regard to borrowing for social housing. What is wrong with borrowing money to build homes for people who desperately need them? In particular, what is wrong with that when it provides a stream of income from rent and, in the case of affordable homes being built by the State or by public authorities and sold to workers on ordinary wages, their mortgage payments? It is a stream of income that would actually meet whatever was borrowed so what is the issue here? Why does the Government stricture itself in this regard? What is wrong with borrowing money to build social or affordable homes, particularly when there would be a stream of income coming back from them? Why should any Irish Government limit itself because of ideological input from the European Union, the whole thrust of whose policy is to try to get housing provision totally in the grips of the privatised sector?

Could the Minister of State answer that specific question?

The purpose of the fund is to make commercial investments to support economic activity and employment. If the money is used to pay for what one might call normal Government expenditure, however worthy that might be, the fund is simply another source of funding for the Exchequer and one must borrow it and pay interest on it, which means that Government expenditure elsewhere must be cut back so that we do not exceed our deficit targets. Section 40(2)(b) puts the agency on notice that it must seek to ensure its investments are made in such a way that they do not count as Government expenditure. That is the option we have.

We could also use the €6.8 billion to pay off Government debt and, therefore, pay less interest on that amount from then on. The alternative, which is favoured by Deputy Higgins, is to spend the money on Government debt. In other words, it would go into Government expenditure. What we are saying is that if we get matching funds from the private sector, we will double the amount of money and get double the benefit for it. We can create jobs and have investment plans for water, telecommunications, energy infrastructure and so on. Very positive and constructive jobs that need to be done in our economy can and will be done with this money and they will be done through matching funds. We are doubling the impact it will have, as opposed to Deputy Higgins's proposals.

It is complete nonsense. What is wrong with the pension fund being used for desperately needed social housing when it would produce a stream of income? If one wants to use the Minister of State's term, it is a commercial employment of the fund. Rents would come back from the part of it that was rented and mortgages would come back from the affordable homes sector. It is so obvious. Why should the Government be forced to go out to the capitalist bondholders to borrow money when it already has it in taxpayers' funds? Not only will it get that back, it will get extra back as well.

I think I have made my case.

Question, "That the words proposed to be deleted stand", put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.
Amendment Nos. 17 and 18 not moved.

I move amendment No. 19:

In page 42, to delete lines 19 to 39, and in page 43, to delete line 1.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 81; Níl, 42.

  • Bannon, James.
  • Barry, Tom.
  • Breen, Pat.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burton, Joan.
  • Butler, Ray.
  • Buttimer, Jerry.
  • Byrne, Catherine.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Cannon, Ciarán.
  • Carey, Joe.
  • Coffey, Paudie.
  • Conaghan, Michael.
  • Conlan, Seán.
  • Connaughton, Paul J.
  • Conway, Ciara.
  • Coonan, Noel.
  • Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Coveney, Simon.
  • Daly, Jim.
  • Deasy, John.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Deering, Pat.
  • Dowds, Robert.
  • Doyle, Andrew.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • English, Damien.
  • Feighan, Frank.
  • Ferris, Anne.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Hannigan, Dominic.
  • Harrington, Noel.
  • Harris, Simon.
  • Hayes, Tom.
  • Heydon, Martin.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Humphreys, Heather.
  • Keating, Derek.
  • Kehoe, Paul.
  • Kelly, Alan.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Kyne, Seán.
  • Lawlor, Anthony.
  • Lynch, Ciarán.
  • Lyons, John.
  • McCarthy, Michael.
  • McFadden, Gabrielle.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McHugh, Joe.
  • McLoughlin, Tony.
  • Maloney, Eamonn.
  • Mitchell, Olivia.
  • Mitchell O'Connor, Mary.
  • Mulherin, Michelle.
  • Murphy, Dara.
  • Murphy, Eoghan.
  • Nash, Gerald.
  • Neville, Dan.
  • Nolan, Derek.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
  • O'Donnell, Kieran.
  • O'Donovan, Patrick.
  • O'Dowd, Fergus.
  • O'Mahony, John.
  • O'Reilly, Joe.
  • Phelan, Ann.
  • Phelan, John Paul.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Ryan, Brendan.
  • Sherlock, Sean.
  • Spring, Arthur.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Stanton, David.
  • Tuffy, Joanna.
  • Twomey, Liam.
  • Varadkar, Leo.
  • Walsh, Brian.
  • White, Alex.

Níl

  • Adams, Gerry.
  • Boyd Barrett, Richard.
  • Broughan, Thomas P.
  • Calleary, Dara.
  • Collins, Joan.
  • Colreavy, Michael.
  • Coppinger, Ruth.
  • Cowen, Barry.
  • Crowe, Seán.
  • Daly, Clare.
  • Doherty, Pearse.
  • Donnelly, Stephen S.
  • Dooley, Timmy.
  • Ellis, Dessie.
  • Ferris, Martin.
  • Fleming, Sean.
  • Halligan, John.
  • Healy, Seamus.
  • Healy-Rae, Michael.
  • Higgins, Joe.
  • Keaveney, Colm.
  • Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
  • McConalogue, Charlie.
  • McDonald, Mary Lou.
  • McGrath, Finian.
  • McGrath, Mattie.
  • McGrath, Michael.
  • McGuinness, John.
  • McLellan, Sandra.
  • Murphy, Catherine.
  • Naughten, Denis.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
  • O'Brien, Jonathan.
  • O'Sullivan, Maureen.
  • Ross, Shane.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Stanley, Brian.
  • Troy, Robert.
  • Wallace, Mick.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg; Níl, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Joe Higgins.
Question declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.
Amendments Nos. 20 to 22, inclusive, not moved.

I move amendment No. 23:

In page 45, between lines 14 and 15, to insert the following:

"Report and information to Minister relating to operation of Fund

49. The Agency shall in each report under section 13(1) of the Act of 1990, subject to preserving confidentiality in regard to commercially sensitive information, include the following information in relation to the Fund for the year to which the report relates:

(a) the investment strategy pursued;

(b) the investment return achieved by the Fund;

(c) a valuation of the net assets of the Fund;

(d) a detailed list of the assets of the Fund at the end of the year concerned;

(e) the investment management and custodianship arrangements;

(f) an assessment on a regional basis of the impact of the Fund’s investments on economic activity and employment, and

(g) an assessment on a regional basis of the distribution of the investments made by the Fund.".

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 24 not moved.

I move amendment No. 25:

In page 64, to delete lines 20 to 23 and substitute the following:

"21. Any direction given to the Commission under section 19A, 19AA or 19B of the National Pensions Reserve Fund Act 2000 before the Fund constitution date shall have effect on or after that date (until revoked) as if given to the Agency under section 42, 47(4)(b) or (c) or 43, respectively.".

Amendment agreed to.
Bill, as amended, received for final consideration.
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