Yesterday the Tánaiste stated in the Dáil that a family of four adults would face a water bill below €200.
Leaders' Questions
Is it less than the Deputy would like?
The Taoiseach could not or would not say that yesterday.
Would he change it?
A spokesman subsequently stated that the Tánaiste was expressing a "personal view". However, Fine Gael Cabinet sources stated that they were appalled at the Tánaiste's intervention, saying that such a charge would, for some reason, be a disaster for the economy.
Not worth a candle.
Fine Gael Ministers are apparently insisting that the minimum charge must now be €250. A ministerial source told the media, specifically the Irish Daily Mail,
The concern is that Joan's figure is just too low - and that it could throw the whole lot back onto the national accounts. If that happens then it blows the arithmetic .... That would be a disaster.
That was a Fine Gael ministerial source in response to the Tánaiste.
A solo run.
This latest episode illustrates the shambles that this has become for the Government. There have been about nine different instances of climb-downs from the original water charge regime proposed by the Government.
It is sinking.
The Government was warned about the savage impact that the charges regime would have on families with four adults, or those with two or more adult children. I and others warned the Taoiseach time and again in the Dáil, but the Government simply ignored the issue and carried on. The meters have been ticking for the past five weeks. This means charging began on 1 October, but nobody has a clue what the water bills will be. The Government is now telling the media there will be flat charges, but the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, is boasting that a meter is being installed every 30 seconds. For what reason are they being installed?
It will break the country.
No audit has been carried out of the water infrastructure.
Is there a question for the Taoiseach?
We did not have a proper debate and there was no transparency around this from the beginning. There was no accountability to the Dáil. John Tierney told a journalist, Sean O'Rourke, about consultancy costs and nobody was told about that in here. In short, the establishment of Irish Water and everything to do with it has been a telling narrative of the Government's disdain for the people and their views, the Government's culture of secrecy and its incoherence. As Deputy Eoghan Murphy indicated this morning, not only is the credibility of Irish Water in tatters, but the Government's credibility is in tatters as well.
Will the Taoiseach bring his much sought-after clarity and certainty to the Tánaiste's comments yesterday? Is she correct in saying the bill for a family of four adults will be less than €200? Is it the case that the Fine Gael Ministers are right? I asked the following question yesterday.
The Deputy is over time.
What is the minimum level of revenue required to enable the Government to borrow off balance sheet and invest in water infrastructure? That is the bottom line, and the Taoiseach is not telling us the details.
The Deputy is a great man for knowing what are now the bottom lines. His party proposed to introduce a system with no allowances and a minimum charge of €400.
Who is the Taoiseach?
That is not the case. Correct the record.
I share the Tánaiste's view that the decision to be made here must be clear and affordable while taking into account the concerns and anxieties of people. The Deputy has given a long list of comment and speculation in his contribution. The average charge has been set out and the Tánaiste made her remarks in a personal capacity here.
She did not.
She represented the Government.
Stay quiet, please.
The Government-----
She was standing there as Tánaiste.
Deputy Dooley's leader is quite capable of replying on his own behalf. He does not need assistance.
He might need a break.
Somebody might give him a long one.
The Government has made it perfectly clear that a number of changes are to be made. It has indicated that it will make a decision in the next two weeks or so. It will bring clarity and restore confidence where there has been confusion.
It will be Christmas before we get it.
I accept and admit that. I share the Tánaiste's view that the decision-----
Is that her personal view?
-----to be made should include a regime of charges that are simple, clear and affordable. It should take into account the difficulties and concerns that have been articulated. It is also very important to understand that this entity - Irish Water - is being set up for a particular purpose of being able to borrow off the Government balance sheet to pass the market corporation test.
There is no credibility.
What is the revenue figure required?
It should be sufficiently resourced to stand on its own two feet, independent of the Government, and invest in fixing the problems that have been evident for many years. The €10 billion programme for fixing infrastructure that must be implemented is very extensive and will cover all parts of the country. I notice today that the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, issued a comment on the setting up of Irish Water to the effect that it would bring in standards as a national entity. In that sense it should be welcomed.
One quango praising another.
Independent analysis will be carried out by the EPA relating to the inferior treatment works and infrastructure that have been referred to on a number of occasions. We know 30% of households in the country are occupied by one adult and 49% of houses are occupied by two adults, with 13% occupied by three adults, 6% occupied by four adults and 2% occupied by five adults. There is a clear issue where there are a number of adults in a house. A person living alone will have 48% of the required water supplied through the free allocation from the State, and so on.
The comment made by the Tánaiste yesterday is in respect of making the charges as fair and as affordable as possible. The Government has not made a decision on this yet and the Government will make its decision in the next two weeks. It will be perfectly clear about that, taking into account all of the issues that have been raised here and those which must be dealt with. There is a major programme of reconstruction and investment to be put in place.
The Tánaiste was not speaking in a personal capacity yesterday. She was speaking as deputy leader of the Government during official Question Time with regard to her brief of social protection. She answered clearly that a family with four adults would pay less than €200. The Taoiseach is the leader of the Government. He has come in the following day to say that the Government has made no decision; nevertheless, he is blaming everybody else for the confusion and the lack of certainty or clarity.
Bluster.
I asked the Taoiseach a simple question. Is the figure of less than €200 for a four-adult family correct? Will he answer that question?
We have all heard about the famous off balance sheet mechanism, which is essentially an accounting mechanism. One needs 50% revenue from non-State sources, which essentially means charges. What is the level of revenue required by the Government to enable it to borrow off balance sheet? The Taoiseach must have that figure. He knows it, but for some reason he will not tell us. That is a reflection of the entire debate. There has been no debate and nobody can ask questions of Irish Water through parliamentary questions.
Will the Taoiseach confirm that the Government has made a decision that the Revenue Commissioners will be taking over the collection of water charges? The Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, refused to rule that out yesterday.
Has the Government sacked the regulator?
I can confirm that the Government has not made a decision in that regard. I can confirm that I agree with the Tánaiste's principle that we should have these contributions as low and as affordable as possible.
The regulator says €483 is the figure.
The Deputy should settle down and not upset his blood pressure.
Deputy Martin is well aware from the debates that have taken place already that without a commercial, publicly-owned entity like Irish Water the cost of investment will be €800 million. Nobody on the other side of the House has addressed how they would deal with this.
We actually have addressed that. Can the Taoiseach answer the straight question I asked? What level of revenue is required?
I call on Deputy Adams to speak.
I cannot hear what the Taoiseach is saying. The Taoiseach is speaking but he is inaudible. Will the Taoiseach tell us the figure for God's sake? This is ridiculous - he is mumbling under his breath.
I have called Deputy Adams, the next speaker. I ask Deputy Martin to resume his seat.
The Taoiseach did not answer the question.
He is confused.
Has the regulator been kidnapped?
This is ridiculous - the Taoiseach is mumbling under his breath. Is binn béal ina thost. Sin an tuairim atá ag an Taoiseach.
Yesterday the Tánaiste told the Dáil that a family of four adults will pay a water tax bill of €200. This figure was later quickly rejected by her own spokesperson and the Taoiseach's spokesperson. There were media briefings by the Government suggesting the Tánaiste was expressing a personal view and the Taoiseach repeated that today. The Taoiseach has repudiated the Tánaiste and many people will wonder which is Tweedledum and which is Tweedledee. Is the Tánaiste part of the Government? Yesterday the Taoiseach stressed the need for clarity. The legislation was rushed through the Dáil last Christmas and another Christmas now approaches but the Taoiseach will still not say how much citizens will be charged for water. Will the Taoiseach set out precisely the Government position?
The Taoiseach contradicted his earlier remarks by saying he agrees with the Tánaiste. Was the Tánaiste correct in the figure she quoted of under €200? Yesterday the Taoiseach refused to commit to scrapping water charges. Does the Taoiseach remember long ago when he said his Government would be different from those led by Fianna Fáil? He said, "Paddy likes to know".
What of Donegal and Dundalk?
Deputy Adams pays charges in the North.
Struggling families have a right to know about these charges. The Taoiseach once said "Paddy likes to know" so perhaps he can tell Paddy and Patricia whether the figures put forward by the Tánaiste are correct. If her figure is incorrect how much will be charged for water?
I heard Deputy Adams waffling on to the nation this morning. He said he supports those who do pay, those who do not pay and those who cannot pay.
He supports everyone - he is very supportive.
As far as Europe is concerned, he said everybody should go to hell. Now we know where Deputy Adams stands - he stands everywhere and nowhere. He does not know what he wants and he will keep looking until he finds it.
He sounds like the Taoiseach.
Deputy Adams only wants an answer.
When the interviewer asked Deputy Adams what he would do in the Taoiseach's chair he quickly ran an Irish mile from the question. Deputy Adams has no intention of taking a place in this seat on this side of the House. Deputy Adams stands on all platforms for everything, against everything and with no commitment.
Stop the waffle.
It is contagious.
I will answer the question raised by Deputy Adams. As I said to Deputy Martin, I support the principle the Tánaiste espoused yesterday to the effect that contributions for domestic water should be as fair and affordable as possible. I can confirm that the Government has not made a decision on the final level of contributions to be made nor has it decided on the changes that will be made to the structure.
That information has been already given to the regulator - the regulator has decided. Has the Taoiseach kicked out the regulator?
If Deputy Higgins cannot stay quiet he should leave the Chamber.
It is ridiculous that the Taoiseach can come before the House and meander around the issue like this.
Hear, hear.
Deputy Adams will be aware that there is a strong programme of metering taking place at the moment. Under the current structure meters have been running since 1 October but bills will not be sent out until the end of January. The capping arrangement will continue for a further nine months - this means that people with meters who use less water than the cap will pay the lower amount. This is an incentive to register and have a meter installed and it allows for the possibility of beating the cap, as it were. The Government has listened to the many views and concerns voiced by people and, as Deputy Adams noted, they include those who can pay, cannot pay and will not pay. Deputy Adams is on the average industrial wage and he will pay for his holiday home in Donegal - I hope he enjoys his meal in New York tomorrow night.
Here we go again.
The Government has listened to these views and concerns and in two weeks will make a very clear decision in line with the principle espoused by the Tánaiste yesterday - domestic water contributions should be as fair and affordable as possible for everyone.
What about the regulator?
Sack the regulator.
I point out to Deputy Adams that the market corporation test for an entity like Irish Water is that it be sufficiently resourced to stand independently of the Government. This is why it is necessary that Irish Water is set up to borrow independently and to invest in a programme of fixing inadequate and inferior infrastructure around the country. The Environmental Protection Agency has noted the number of water treatment plants that are not up to standard and a national standard will be applied by Irish Water. A major capital programme of more than €1 billion per year has been set out. An investment of around €10 billion is required to fix something that it has not been possible to fix for some years. It will not be possible to fix Irish water infrastructure without an entity like Irish Water. Deputy Adams can make all the comments he wishes in a debate on this in two weeks when clear answers will be given.
Incidentally, the Labour Party committed to oppose water charges but that is beside the point.
That is not true.
The Taoiseach said he has not made a decision on this.
Can Members please be quiet as they do not impress anyone by shouting? There are too many comedians at the moment and Deputy Adams should be allowed to make his statement.
This Government has been sitting for three and a half years and the legislation was introduced almost a year ago but the Taoiseach still will not tell people what they will be charged. The Government is dysfunctional and the Minister who introduced water charges legislation says it has failed abjectly. He described Uisce Éireann as arrogant, uncaring and a cosseted quango with a bonus culture. Today Deputy Eoghan Murphy, a Fine Gael TD, accused the Government of manipulating and abusing the Dáil in how it ran through the legislation that established Irish Water. He said the credibility of the Government is in tatters. Meanwhile, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, has threatened the use of Revenue to chase those who cannot pay the water tax and has demanded that citizens give their personal public service, PPS, numbers to Irish water.
Did the Taoiseach or the Tánaiste authorise Irish water to contact every local authority to seek the names and addresses of council tenants? Is this what the Taoiseach meant when he said he listened to the concerns of citizens who took to the streets in every county of this State last Saturday? Yesterday he said he would act on their calls. The game is up.
The Taoiseach will not tell us how much he is going to charge. He refuses to do that. Will the Taoiseach not now, even belatedly, agree that the only way forward is to scrap water charges?
No, I do not agree with that at all. The Government has made a number of decisions in regard to giving the regulator directions to the effect that the average metered charge would be €240 and that 30,000 litres would be allocated per household and 21,000 litres allocated per child.
The problems being raised by people here are particularly in regard to those who have difficulties in meeting an assessed charge and where there are households with more than two adults. Clearly that is an issue the Government will have to address. I have given the percentages of the houses involved where there are over three adults living in households and these need to be dealt with. Households with three or more adults comprise 13%, households with four or more adults amount to 6% and those with five adults comprise 2%. There is an issue that needs to be addressed.
Arising from confusion and the misinformation that has been around about this for some time now-----
There is no confusion.
(Interruptions).
Would you mind, please?
The Government is responsible for the confusion.
The Government will consider all of these issues ranging from the issues concerning Irish Water-----
(Interruptions).
Did the Taoiseach listen to the crowds last Saturday?
Will you stop shouting on the backbenches? Thank you very much.
-----to the people who have aired their difficulties and expressed their concerns. Anyway, the fundamental fact is that we live in a country that has an inadequate water system.
It is an inadequate Government.
We live in a country that has inferior treatment works. We live in a country where we are paying €1.2 billion for treated water at the moment and 40% of it leaks away into the ground.
(Interruptions).
It is a legacy issue.
We live in a country where people pay their taxes.
Sorry Taoiseach, we are way over time.
Taxes are running ahead of projections, as Deputy Adams is aware, in the fastest-growing economy in Europe. Anyway, we are not in a position to provide an infrastructure in future to deal with the hundreds of thousands of people throughout the country who are living with boiled water notices, the raw sewage going into rivers and the bays of the sea, and the leaks in so many schemes that are not up to standard. We have to fix that and Deputy Adams knows it.
The issues that have been raised that are of concern to people and that have caused anxiety are perfectly legitimate. In line with the principle, espoused here, of having contributions that are fair and affordable, the Government will make its decision in two weeks on the matter.
Thank you, Taoiseach.
I pointed out the-----
Sorry, you are way over time, Taoiseach.
-----projects where these things are necessary.
At this stage the Government seems to have floundered from one fiasco to the next with Irish Water. There seems to be no end to it and the hole seems to be getting deeper. The Taoiseach told us yesterday that he was not going to put up with under-investment in water, but the Government has been doing that for three and a half years because it has not been investing for the past three and a half years.
The problems remain. The Government has not fixed any of the leaking pipes. We still have sewage going into the sea. In Wexford there were 11 village projects ready to go. They had been approved and were simply waiting for funding from central government. Irish Water came along and put them on hold. They have gone right back to the preamble stage. We have raw sewage going into the sea in Wexford from Duncannon, Arthurstown, Ballyhack and Kilmore Quay. We have secondary treatment going in from big towns like Gorey and Courtown. Irish Water has delayed all of this.
The Taoiseach will remember very well back in the late 1980s the rod licence dispute. It shook the nation at the time. People felt that a freedom was being taken from them, even if it was only a £5 fee to fish in public lakes. It captured the nation at the time and there was a huge feeling about it. It reached the stage where it was either the case that the Government was going to fall over it or it had to abolish it. Irish Water has reached the same stage. The cat is out of the bag and putting it back in is not going to be easy.
There are too many cats.
At this stage the Taoiseach seems to have an alternative. Will the Taoiseach abolish Irish Water? The Taoiseach should do himself and the people a favour by abolishing it. Otherwise, as an alternative, will the Taoiseach go to the country and ask the people for a choice on the matter, abolish the Government now and call an election?
The answer to both of those questions is "No". I assume Deputy Wallace wants to see a situation where Duncannon and the other areas in Wexford do not have raw sewage being pumped into the sea. I understand that only in the past two days there has been confirmation by Irish Water of a number of schemes in Wexford now going ahead. That is as it should be.
It is very important that the contributions that come for domestic water use to Irish Water are spent on investing in infrastructure by Irish Water. We must have a situation whereby the entity which is charged with fixing this infrastructure and investing for the future can demonstrate that the contributions made to it are spent entirely on investing and fixing inadequate infrastructure.
Of course I recall the difficulties with the rod licence which consumed the country for quite some time and the issues about ownership of the waters and lakes of Ireland, particularly those in the west.
Was the Taoiseach fishing them?
Only our rivers are free.
However, Deputy Wallace will be aware that the situation that applied with 34 different entities dealing with planning, design, approval, tender, contract, fit-out and build throughout the country led to a different standard being applied in different places. That is why the Environmental Protection Agency, which I am sure Deputy Wallace supports, issued a comment yesterday. I note the agency said that a national standard is fundamental and that the setting up of Irish Water will bring that about.
Irish Water representatives have a very good story to tell that they have not been telling.
What are they going to say to us?
They should be outlining the timescale and the programme of projects in each individual area throughout the country so people will see and know that the investment is on its way to fix the particular problems that they have. Yesterday, I spoke about the many houses that have lead service pipes going into them. We cannot continue with that but we cannot deal with it unless we have an entity that can borrow off the Government balance sheet and invest in these kinds of projects. If Deputy Wallace is talking to a parent or householder who lives in one of those houses, he needs to be able to say to them that Irish Water is investing and outline the timescale, whether for Duncannon or any other place in the country. This has gone on for too long.
Part of the remit given to this Government was to fix our finances and get our country working. In due course the people will have their opportunity to cast their verdict on the work of this Government and on whether it fulfilled its mandate.
They are waiting in the long grass.
That mandate was to fix our public finances and put our country back to work. I remind Deputy Wallace that yesterday the figures for unemployment were down to 11%. We are now the fastest-growing economy in Europe. The sacrifices made by the people are responsible for that because they accepted all the challenges. Now we have a challenge to have a fair and affordable system. That is what the Government has to reflect on arising from the anxieties and concerns that have been expressed.
We have the fastest-growing economy in Europe but we also have the fastest-growing child poverty in Europe. The 11 sewerage projects in Wexford have been ready to go for a long time but central government has not funded them and they are not going to start as soon as the Taoiseach has indicated. Sewage is going into the sea because this Government has tolerated it, the same as the one before it.
There was supposed to be an upgrade in Ringsend. The local authority was told that the site was not big enough to accommodate a new upgrading facility. The long sea outfall project was commissioned and eventually got through planning after six years of work. What is happening now? Irish Water has decided it can build the plant on-site and it need not carry out the long sea outfall project. Why is this? It is because it will cost €100 million. Irish Water is going to do a cheaper version. Irish Water maintains it has new technology and it will magic it up. I would like to see what kind of effect that will have on Sandymount beach and Merrion beach, because that will be a problem.
If Irish Water builds a facility that causes pollution, who will deal with the issue? The local authority will. As I told the Taoiseach two weeks ago, Irish Water is not taking on responsibility for dealing with pollution, flooding or storm water; therefore, dealing with the pollution it causes will be the responsibility of the local authority.
Will the Deputy, please, put his question? We are over time.
Where is the logic in separating flooding, storm water and pollution from the supply of water and waste treatment?
The Deputy has actually made the case for why there must be an entity such as Irish Water. He has said 11 projects in County Wexford are awaiting approval from the Government. That is true.
The Government would not provide the money.
In fact, there are probably far more than 11, if one looks at the list of projects not yet designed. The same applies to every local authority area in the country. There can be hundreds of projects and there have been hundreds for the past 25 or 30 years. Every year there has been a drip, drip effect, as it were, with regard to which scheme will get the go-ahead. The reason is that each local authority and all of the projects in County Wexford which the Deputy mentioned had to compete with schools, hospitals and other public projects funded from the general taxation fund. That is the reason we have never been able to invest properly in fixing the Irish water supply and wastewater treatment system. That is why there is a need for Irish Water to be able to borrow independently and pass the market corporation test of being able to stand on its own feet in terms of resources in order that it can invest independently and undertake the 11 projects in County Wexford and all of the others in every local authority around the country. That is why it is important.
If the Deputy wants the system to remain the way it was and which has brought us to this point where we have grossly inferior infrastructure, I do not share his view.
Will the Taoiseach answer my question?
The reason we must have Irish Water is in order that it can invest for the future for the people of Wexford, Duncannon and everywhere else.
That is not the case.
The Taoiseach did not answer my question.