Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 16 Dec 2014

Vol. 862 No. 1

Order of Business

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. a20, motion re sittings and business of Dáil; No. 20, motion re withdrawal of Road Traffic Bill 2014; No. 21, motion re referral to select sub-committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the agreements between the European Union and Canada, the Republic of Moldova, Georgia and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan; and No. 37, Water Services Bill 2014 - Committee Stage (resumed).

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. and adjourn at the conclusion of Topical Issues; that Nos. a20, 20 and 21 shall be decided without debate; that Private Members' business shall be No. 70, Thirty-fourth Amendment of the Constitution (Right to Personal Autonomy and Bodily Integrity) Bill 2014 - Second Stage; and that tomorrow's business after Oral Questions shall be No. 37, Water Services Bill 2014 - Committee Stage (resumed).

An Ceann Comhairle

There are two proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with the late sitting agreed to?

Deputy Micheál Martin

No, I object to the way business has been ordered for today and the rest of the week and was ordered last week. It is extraordinary, for example, that Topical Issues have been moved to 10 p.m. The debate is meant to provide an opportunity for Deputies to raise and give a profile to an issue that is topical and obtain a response, yet it is proposed to take the debate at 10 p.m. The Government made a big thing of this at the beginning of this Dáil when it changed the name from the Adjournment Debate to Topical Issue Matters, provided more time for the debate and held it at the start as opposed to the end of the day. Last week the debate was arbitrarily taken off the agenda at the whim of the Government parties. This week it will be held at 10 p.m. this evening, 11 p.m. tomorrow and 8.30 p.m. on Thursday. This illustrates that the Government's commitment to Dáil reform has been an abject failure.

The seeds of many of the issues that have arisen in recent weeks in terms of disruption of the Dáil and so forth were sown in the Government's arbitrary approach to the regulation of the House, with business changing from day to day. Tomorrow the debate on the Water Services Bill will essentially be guillotined in the evening. Any sense that the Dáil has an input into how things are done in terms of the organisation of the House is being undermined by the Government to suit its political agenda from day to day. I oppose the proposal that the Dáil sit later than 9 p.m. for these reasons. I cannot for the life of me understand the reason the Topical Issue debate was not scheduled for 1 p.m. Why did the sitting start at 2 p.m. when we could have met at noon or 1 p.m.? The relevant Deputies and Ministers would have made it their business to be here. Playing fast and loose with the daily schedule, as the Government is doing at will, is not good enough.

Deputy Gerry Adams

May I also speak to No. a20?

An Ceann Comhairle

We will deal, first, with the proposal for dealing with the late sitting.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The way in which the Government which majored on Dáil reform, political reform and so forth has ordered the business of the House in the past short period is incomprehensible and does not make sense. It is all about trying to rush through measures without proper scrutiny - that is the crucial point. It is not that we want to prolong or have an artificial debate but that we want to scrutinise the measures being brought forward. The Topical Issue debate is a very important tool for Teachtaí Dála of all parties, including the Government parties, to raise issues which are topical. The business, as proposed, has been reordered, as it was in recent weeks. I oppose the proposed late sitting and give notice that Sinn Féin will also oppose No. a20.

Deputy Joe Higgins

I, too, am concerned, although I will leave my remarks and objection until the discussion on the next proposal, No. a20, which deals with the guillotining of the debate on the Water Services Bill.

The Taoiseach

The Government changed the way business was conducted by changing the old Adjournment Debate which was held at midnight or 1 a.m. for years without anyone showing an interest in it. On a small number of occasions, we have had to change the time of the Topical Issue debate, which normally takes place in the course of the day. The debate gives Deputies the right to ask questions and obtain answers from Ministers.

We are in the closing stages of this session. The Water Services Bill was published on 2 December and so far there have been 11 hours of debate on Second Stage and 13 hours of debate on Committee Stage. Of the 46 Committee Stage amendments submitted, 16 were ruled out of order. When the debate was adjourned on Friday, Deputies had voted on amendment No. 29 and were debating section 7. Fourteen amendments remain to be debated in eight groups on Committee Stage. The Minister and a number of Deputies have indicated that they intend to table amendments on Report Stage. The Committee Stage debate is scheduled to resume after the Order of Business and continue until 8.30 p.m. when we will take Private Members' business which will be followed by the Topical Issue debate. The debate will resume at 10.45 a.m. on Wednesday and continue until noon when we will take Leaders' Questions, the Order of Business and statements on the European Council. It will resume again at 2 p.m. and continue until 6 p.m. when we will have a sos for one hour. The debate on Report and Final Stages will commence at 7 p.m. and continue until 9.30 p.m. when the House will take Private Members' business and the Topical Issue debate before rising at 11.50 p.m. If Deputies wish to take the Topical Issue debate at the time scheduled for statements on the European Council, I do not mind. The Water Services Bill will then be brought to the Seanad where the Second Stage debate has been scheduled to begin at 2 p.m. on Thursday, 18 December, with Committee Stage scheduled to be taken at 10 a.m. on Friday, 19 December, and Report Stage being taken subsequently. The Seanad may also sit on Monday, 22 December. The schedules of both Houses are subject to change.

The proposal which aims to bring some cohesion to the remainder of the debate is to group the Committee Stage amendments to the Bill in the way that is normally done, for instance, in the case of the Finance Bill. There are rankings of committee proposals in order of priority. A number have been ruled out of order and all of the others will be discussed individually.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Is the Taoiseach referring to today's business?

The Taoiseach

I am referring to the business for today and tomorrow.

An Ceann Comhairle

The first issue to be dealt with is the proposal for dealing with the late sitting.

The Taoiseach

I am not sure whether Deputy Micheál Martin's party was represented at the Whips' meeting earlier at which these matters were discussed.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed to?

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with the late sitting be agreed to", put and declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. a20, 20 and 21 agreed to?

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is not agreed. What we have here is the arbitrary rescheduling of the Dáil to suit the Government's political agenda. I have not heard any rationale as to why the Road Traffic (No. 2) Bill should be withdrawn, given the numbers of lives lost on the roads and so on. There is always an imperative to have legislation like this passed. In terms of how the Dáil is organised, we will be writing to the Ceann Comhairle about the need for a radical change in how we do our business. The Government has to lead on this. We sent our document on political reform to it over a year ago-----

Deputy Emmet Stagg

You had 75 years.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The bottom line is that a democratic revolution was passed. We are witnessing a constant and consistent suppression of the rights of Deputies to articulate issues, whether it is Question Time or Topical Issue debates being circumscribed and restricted, as they have been, on a consistent basis or otherwise. We now have the guillotining of Bills. The Minister, Deputy Varadkar, more or less told the Seanad yesterday that Senators had better shape up and pass the Water Services Bill without amendment.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

He did not say any such thing.

Deputy Micheál Martin

If they did not, the original regime would apply and people would pay higher charges, despite the fact they have been deferred to April by the Government. This kind of approach, namely, that we do things the Government's way or there will be consequences, is the very antitheses-----

Deputy Emmet Stagg

You had five or six guillotines a day.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----of the Dáil reform that was promised by the Government. The Taoiseach said it would do things differently, and every political party signed up for change at the time of the general election. Nothing has happened in that regard. The Taoiseach, in the last reply-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I think you have made your point.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----went through three days of the ordering of the business of the House and the rationale behind it. There is no rationale behind having Topical Issue debates at 11 p.m.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

You used to have adjournments at midnight every day.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The consistent approach to trying to manage the House is causing difficulties for the House and Ceann Comhairle. I do not want to draw the Office of the Ceann Comhairle into it, but it is causing difficulties in terms of ongoing disruption. I do not tolerate some of the behaviour of others, but if the Taoiseach does not treat the House with respect, the House then falls into disrepute, which is a major issue.

Deputy Gerry Adams

We will call a vote on this measure. The guillotine is being imposed on Committee and Report Stages of the Bill. We have to remember that this is the Government's second chance at this Bill. It is highly controversial, unpopular and unfair. Can I use the word "hames"?

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

You could, or "a hash".

Deputy Gerry Adams

It made a complete hames of it and ignored everything that was said and every amendment. It did not accept one amendment from Sinn Féin. This time, it is doing the same thing. It is rushing the Bill through. It has been edifying that the debate we have had here has exposed some of the flaws in the Bill. The notion that one can get something wrong once, and then twice, is not the way to do business. One would imagine that the Government would be a bit sensitive about this issue, given that it is a major issue in the public mind. Sinn Féin is opposed to the guillotine being imposed.

Deputy Joe Higgins

It is not acceptable in any sense, in particular in regard to the Water Services Bill, that a guillotine would be imposed. The Bill would have progressed much faster if the Minister had not come in here last week and tied himself up in knots, giving wholly contradictory figures to the Dáil and being unable to answer the legitimate and forensic questions from Opposition Deputies.

In regard to the ludicrous so-called conservation scheme, theoretically water charges will leave houses at the same time as social welfare bills will arrive to pay partly for them. The Minister could not answer the most basic questions and disappeared a third of a million households in providing only €130 million for so-called conservation grants. A grant of €100 would cost €165 million.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are not debating the issue; we are only debating the timing.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Yes, but one can see the problem with shutting down the debate. In terms of income, the Minister provided €271 million next year for income, but has lost €218 million.

An Ceann Comhairle

We can deal with that when we deal with the Bill.

Deputy Joe Higgins

If the Minister is acknowledging that there will be a significant level of non-payment and boycott, he should say so rather than trying to arrogantly shout down the legitimate questions of Opposition Deputies. I recommend that there be no guillotine. I strongly recommend that the Government postpone further consideration of this Bill until January, when we can have a full and logical enumeration of the figures and the realities, and suspend the water charges until then. With the benefit of a month of contemplation, perhaps the Government will abolish the odious water charges anyway, which is what will happen, whether it takes six months or a year. It will take no more than 18 months.

The Taoiseach

I thank Deputies for their comments. In regard to what Deputy Martin said, he is aware of what is required. When the Road Traffic (No. 2) Bill was introduced, it was as a Dáil Bill. It is a matter of considerable importance. In order to bring it before the Seanad, which the Minister proposes to do, a motion has to be moved to withdraw it from the Dáil timetable. The Whip has met all spokespersons, including those from Fianna Fáil, and this is the reason the motion appeared today. It is being brought before the Seanad because it is of such considerable importance.

In respect of the adjustment of the timetable, another change introduced by the Government was to have comments before, as well as after, European Council meetings. I am quite prepared to come in tomorrow at 11 p.m. and discuss the European Council agenda. The time allocated for Topical Issues can be substituted for the time allocated originally for European Council statements after the Order of Business tomorrow, with the proviso that the time for Topical Issues might have to be brought forward. If Deputy Martin is agreeable, I am happy to come in tomorrow at 11 p.m. and discuss the European Council. He can discuss his important Topical Issue after the Order of Business tomorrow if he wishes.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The cynical smile of the Whip shows the truth of the cynical approach.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

That is not a smile, it is a grin.

The Taoiseach

There were 11 hours of debate on Second Stage and 13 hours so far on Committee Stage. Deputies Adams and Higgins mentioned the conservation grant. The same applies in respect of unemployment lists. When the Minister of the day introduces a budget at the end of any year, there may be an increase in the unemployment rate, which has to be catered for, or the number of medical cards to be granted, or whatever. The allocation of €130 million may well have to be increased, and if it has to be increased-----

An Ceann Comhairle

We will not go there.

The Taoiseach

-----then that is what will happen.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is about time.

The Taoiseach

The Fianna Fáil spokesperson on the environment, who is not here, talked about paying for that money and the removal of USC from increased taxation. Perhaps he might explain that to the population at large.

Question put:

The Dáil divided: Tá, 83; Níl, 51.

Tá

• Breen, Pat.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Burton, Joan.
• Butler, Ray.
• Buttimer, Jerry.
• Byrne, Catherine.
• Byrne, Eric.
• Cannon, Ciarán.
• Carey, Joe.
• Coffey, Paudie.
• Conaghan, Michael.
• Conlan, Seán.
• Connaughton, Paul J.
• Conway, Ciara.
• Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
• Costello, Joe.
• Creed, Michael.
• Daly, Jim.
• Deasy, John.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Deering, Pat.
• Doherty, Regina.
• Dowds, Robert.
• Doyle, Andrew.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Farrell, Alan.
• Feighan, Frank.
• Fitzgerald, Frances.
• Fitzpatrick, Peter.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Hannigan, Dominic.
• Harrington, Noel.
• Harris, Simon.
• Hayes, Tom.
• Heydon, Martin.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Humphreys, Heather.
• Keating, Derek.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kelly, Alan.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Kenny, Seán.
• Kyne, Seán.
• Lawlor, Anthony.
• Lynch, Ciarán.
• Lynch, Kathleen.
• McEntee, Helen.
• McFadden, Gabrielle.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McHugh, Joe.
• McNamara, Michael.
• Maloney, Eamonn.
• Mitchell, Olivia.
• Mitchell O'Connor, Mary.
• Mulherin, Michelle.
• Murphy, Eoghan.
• Neville, Dan.
• Nolan, Derek.
• Noonan, Michael.
• Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
• O'Donnell, Kieran.
• O'Donovan, Patrick.
• O'Dowd, Fergus.
• O'Reilly, Joe.
• O'Sullivan, Jan.
• Penrose, Willie.
• Perry, John.
• Phelan, John Paul.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Reilly, James.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, Brendan.
• Sherlock, Sean.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Stanton, David.
• Tuffy, Joanna.
• Twomey, Liam.
• Varadkar, Leo.
• Wall, Jack.
• Walsh, Brian.
• White, Alex.

Níl

• Adams, Gerry.
• Boyd Barrett, Richard.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Calleary, Dara.
• Collins, Joan.
• Collins, Niall.
• Colreavy, Michael.
• Coppinger, Ruth.
• Cowen, Barry.
• Creighton, Lucinda.
• Crowe, Seán.
• Daly, Clare.
• Doherty, Pearse.
• Donnelly, Stephen S.
• Ellis, Dessie.
• Ferris, Martin.
• Fitzmaurice, Michael.
• Flanagan, Terence.
• Fleming, Sean.
• Fleming, Tom.
• Grealish, Noel.
• Halligan, John.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Healy-Rae, Michael.
• Higgins, Joe.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kirk, Seamus.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
• McDonald, Mary Lou.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McGrath, Mattie.
• McGrath, Michael.
• McGuinness, John.
• McLellan, Sandra.
• Martin, Micheál.
• Mathews, Peter.
• Murphy, Catherine.
• Murphy, Paul.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O'Brien, Jonathan.
• O'Sullivan, Maureen.
• Pringle, Thomas.
• Ross, Shane.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Stanley, Brian.
• Troy, Robert.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Paul Kehoe; Níl, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Seán Ó Fearghaíl.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

The time for the Order of Business is up, but I will allow the two party leaders to ask a quick question.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Do not forget the Technical Group.

Deputy Micheál Martin

First, will the Taoiseach organise an opportunity to table a motion of condemnation of the appalling attack earlier? With the agreement of the House, we could have a common motion as a national Parliament condemning what happened with the slaughter of so many innocent children.

Second, we need a considered debate on recent developments in Northern Ireland. Could such a motion be tabled?

Third, when will the climate change Bill be brought before the House, given the conference held in Lima last week?

Fourth, is there proposed legislation in the event that the Water Services Bill does not go through? The comments of the Minister for Health come to mind. He said there would be higher charges if the Bill was amended by the Seanad.

Deputy Noel Grealish

Bully boy tactics.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Does that mean there will be further legislation next week in the House? What are the Government's intentions to give effect to the Minister's comments?

Deputy Gerry Adams

I refer to the terms of reference of the commission of investigation into the mother and baby homes. I understand from our spokesperson that the Minister for Justice and Equality is bringing them to completion, but she said in June that it was expected that they would be before the House prior to the summer recess. That did not happen. We need an opportunity to debate these serious issues. Will the terms of reference include county homes, the Westbank Orphanage, some of the Protestant institutions and the Magdalen laundries? There is an indication that others will be appointed to the commission. When can we expect to know who they might be?

The same sex marriage and presidential election referendums deal with important issues relating to fundamental human rights, on which the Constitutional Convention took a progressive stance. The Minister of State with responsibility for the Diaspora is reported as having told an Irish-American audience that the date for the referendums would be set before Christmas. When will the referendum on same sex marriage be held? When will the referendum to lower the age to vote in and extend voting rights to presidential elections be held?

The Taoiseach

In respect of statements on Northern Ireland, I do not know whether Deputy Micheál Martin is talking about after the Christmas break, but I do not have an objection to this. I will also see whether we can do something about having a common condemnation of the Taliban's wanton murder of children.

The climate change Bill will be taken in the first week following the resumption of the Dáil.

I expect the debate on the Water Services Bill to conclude in the Dáil and the Seanad before Christmas and hope we can agree on dealing with it.

The terms of reference of the mother and baby homes commission of investigation will be brought to the Cabinet at the first meeting after Christmas. They will be debated in the House.

In respect of the referendums, the Government made two decisions this morning to hold a referendum on the proposal put by the Constitutional Convention on the reduction of the eligibility of age to vote in presidential elections and to give authorisation to the Minister for Justice and Equality to draft the marriage equality Bill to hold a referendum on the issue. Both referendums will be held on the one day in May 2015, but the Government did not decide on a final date. The Minister will come back to the Government when she has finalised her proposals in respect of the marriage equality question. The Government has to set up a referendum commission and so on in dealing with these matters.