Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 Jan 2015

Vol. 865 No. 2

Topical Issue Debate

Anti-Social Behaviour

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Anti-social behaviour is eating away at the heart of some of our communities and causing misery for families trapped in certain neighbourhoods. I am thankful to the Minister for Justice and Equality for being here.

This is not an issue that the actions of a single Minister can combat sufficiently. There are a number of different dimensions to this problem. Certainly, policing is one of them, but there are also responsibilities with the housing authority. There is responsibility in terms of estates management and there is responsibility in the matter of drug abuse in some of those communities.

It is not widely understood how bad the phenomenon is in some estates in my constituency, in the Minister's constituency, in many parts of west Dublin and in many urban areas. It is corroding the fabric of community in those areas.

It is a difficult issue for policing. It is a difficult issue in which to mount effective prosecutions. I am afraid that long-term law-abiding residents in those areas think that those gangs of youths can maraud and rampage with impunity and that the State's agencies and institutions are not capable of dealing with it.

The housing authority has a comprehensive code of conduct in respect of anti-social behaviour but it does not enforce it. There is no conviction among residents that the housing authority or local authority will enforce its own code of behaviour.

As a result, the thugs target people who are vulnerable - people living alone, older people, women and sometimes immigrants. In my constituency recently on four consecutive occasions they have broken into a primary school. Their takings over the four break-ins were €8 but the damage done to the school was of an immensely greater value. They have broken into the community enterprise centre and done serious damage to some of the social enterprise units there. They have attacked the private property of some people attending meetings in the area.

It is not a very good example for those youths, who in some cases are out of control, that they can see on YouTube or on television today the reprehensible attack by thugs on the President, which is something I have never seen in my 30-plus years in politics. I have little time for the weasel words of those who send out the travelling shock troops on such occasions and then seek to hide behind their reprehensible behaviour.

We must come up with more effective ways of combatting this phenomenon. Community policing is a very important aspect of it. A careful tenanting policy is another very important factor. The local authority must be seen to act against some families. If there were evictions the word would go around, but the local authority does not push it as far as evictions, for not very good reasons. I accept that the issue is complex. The local authority says it would be stuck with a particular family and would have to find somewhere to rehouse them. The fact of the matter is that one cannot make people’s lives a misery in the fashion that is happening. If it is only one youth in a particular family then the law ought to facilitate an exclusion order such that he can be removed from enjoyment of the house. It is a very serious issue in parts of Dublin city and parts of urban Ireland. I am very pleased that the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, is present.

Minister for Justice and Equality (Deputy Frances Fitzgerald)

I thank Deputy Rabbitte for raising this very important issue. It is critical that the matter be addressed, for the well-being of communities but also of individuals and families. The intimidation that happens has the result of causing upset to residents who are living their lives as best they can, and their lives are interrupted by such behaviour. It can also be very frightening for individual residents. Those concerns are very prominent in my work as Minister. From my role as a public representative I am aware that the issue raised by Deputy Rabbitte is one that demands ongoing attention and intervention.

In so far as the specific local circumstances to which Deputy Rabbitte referred are concerned, I will raise them with the Garda Commissioner and will revert to the Deputy when I have a detailed assessment of the particular instances he has highlighted. I would be very happy to meet with him to discuss the issues and to see what further action could be taken. I have been in contact with the Commissioner about the type of issue raised by Deputy Rabbitte. It is a key priority for the Garda to tackle anti-social behaviour and such public disorder as has been outlined, as will be evident in the policing plan for the year, which will be published shortly. I join with Deputy Rabbitte in what he said about the reprehensible attack on the President last week by anti-social elements who thought it was appropriate to do so.

I wish to mention some of the measures in place to tackle anti-social behaviour. Recruitment to the Garda Síochána has started for the first time since 2008. A further 100 recruits will begin training next week. That will give the Garda the opportunity to deploy extra staff and to examine where gardaí are posted. That is clearly a matter for the Commissioner, but I hope some of the 300 new recruits will be available to tackle such behaviour in a range of communities. The increased funding provided for Garda vehicles and for the justice budget generally is a significant background support to the police presence and to police work. I make that point in a general way.

I wish to refer to the wide range of powers that are available to the Garda at present. Deputy Rabbitte made the point that certain powers exist but he asked whether they are sufficiently used. We must ensure they are used. The Criminal Justice Act 2006 contains provisions for civil proceedings to be taken against adults or children for anti-social behaviour. The range of powers include juvenile and adult cautions, fixed charge penalty notices and the bringing of prosecutions. I will discuss again with the Commissioner whether she feels the legislation could be strengthened in any way to give the Garda more powers.

The young people whom Deputy Rabbitte described are a subset of young people. Many young people behave extremely well. Particular groups of young people are involved in anti-social behaviour. Garda youth diversion projects have been extremely successful and we will invest in them further this year. The Tallaght Youth Service operates a youth diversion programme in the Tallaght area. A total of €11 million has been invested in the programme and a further €2 million will be allocated this year, which will allow for a variety of extra places in areas that are identified as being in most need of such a programme. I have seen such programmes operate effectively, as I am sure has Deputy Rabbitte.

I would like to go into more detail on local policing and some of the action that has been taken, for example, by South Dublin County Council. New by-laws introduced in 2011 allow the Garda to remove scrambler bikes, quads and other vehicles from parks and open spaces. That is an important initiative. The joint policing committees are important in terms of the collaboration that is needed, as outlined by Deputy Rabbitte, in certain areas. From discussion with the Garda Síochána it appears that a very targeted approach is needed in particular areas where anti-social behaviour is prevalent. It is a question of ensuring that happens.

The Deputy referred to inter-agency collaboration and he also referred to housing. The Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2014 has been enacted. In the first quarter of this year the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government will commence Part 2 of the Act. That will strengthen the powers of housing authorities to obtain court orders to exclude persons engaged in anti-social behaviour from local authority accommodation and estates. I agree with Deputy Rabbitte that such an initiative is needed in certain circumstances. A clear message must be given to families who persist in anti-social behaviour on an ongoing basis. The new housing legislation strengthens the power of local authorities to remove such families. It is the responsibility of everyone involved in local communities - the Garda, local authorities and those involved in community development - to bring instances of anti-social behaviour to the attention of housing authorities if removal is deemed to be the solution in certain circumstances. In the first quarter of this year the law will be strengthened to ensure housing authorities have greater power to do that.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I thank the Minister for her reply. She is correct in stating that we are talking about small gangs of out-of-control youths. I look forward to the commencement of the legislation to which she referred, but it is very important that the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government send a signal to local authorities that they are expected to enforce their own code. There is no point in having a considered code to deal with the phenomenon of anti-social behaviour unless it is enforced. In my experience, local authorities are not enforcing the current regulations and as a result those young gangs believe they can do what they are doing with impunity.

I have seen very sad cases. There are some people who cannot peacefully enjoy their own homes.

I know of cases where people are afraid to go out at night and where women living alone feel vulnerable and exposed. I know of circumstances where, over Christmas, a single man's residence was broken into and the few bob in savings he had in the world were stolen while he was at work at night as a night watchman. They know his movements because they had tracked them. They were ready for it, they broke in and did damage. Sometimes they engage in wanton destruction just for the sake of it.

I thank the Minister. It would be important that the Government jointly would send out the signals that she has sent out. Community policing generally works very well but where policemen or policewomen are dragged off to do other tasks, there is a gap and it always needs support and backup.

This is the first Government since the mid-1990s that has not had a Minister with responsibility for a drugs programme. I respectfully say, as someone who supports the Government, that it would be a very good idea if a Minister of State were given explicit responsibility for the drugs programme. The national drugs strategy needs the kind of political focus that a Cabinet Minister responsible for the Department of Health cannot possibly give to what is a significant issue in parts of urban Ireland. Such an appointment should be considered.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

I thank Deputy Rabbitte. I will work with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government and I will send him a note on the specific issues raised by the Deputy, that the local authorities be informed of the commencement of Part 2. I will ensure that the Garda Commissioner is made aware of it because it may well have an impact on the work of local policing. If the Deputy has any particular issues that he wishes to bring to my attention, I am sure that if the information is available and if evidence can be found, there will be criminal investigation into some of the cases to which he referred.

School Enrolments Data

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this matter which is generating a lot of interest. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Damien English, for taking this matter.

I will outline and confirm my support for the development of a centralised information system for primary schools. However, serious concerns have been raised about the Minister's heavy-handed implementation of the primary schools online database or POD system. She has done little thus far to allay the concerns of parents over the security of sensitive information relating to their children. Some serious issues have been raised by parents and the wider public that their data protection rights and legal protections are being ignored by the Minister.

Is it the Minister's intention to threaten to decrease the capitation grant for schools or increase the pupil-teacher ratio for schools where parents have made the decision not to allow their children's details to be included in the primary online database system? For example, if a small primary school has 20 students and the parents of two students did not allow the information to be provided, would that school lose a teacher as a result?

Serious issues have been raised with regard to the level of security of the database. The Minister has tried to allay any data security concerns by stating that data collected by POD will be encrypted on a central system, with access restricted to approved officials in the Department of Education and Skills. However, the Minister has not addressed issues over the security of individual schools' own computer systems. Since schools will have to collect the data and transfer it to the POD system in the Department, children's details may be kept on unsecured and unencrypted computers in schools. Can the Minister give a guarantee as to who will have access to this highly sensitive data on our children?

We are told that the collection process is secure due to a step-by-step system of transferring the data from schools' computers to the Department. How realistic is the proposed system? The Department expects school staff to transfer this highly sensitive data to the Department of Education using a 17-step process so complex that it has been dubbed by principals as near unusable.

It is questionable whether the POD system is in compliance with the Data Protection Act and unclear whether the Data Protection Commissioner has approved the system. We are told that the Department intends to gather sensitive, private data on all primary school students in the country, to include their racial profile, psychological assessments, special needs, religion, and PPS number and that this information will be stored until the children concerned are at least 30 years of age. I question why that needs to be the case.

The Minister has stated that the Data Protection Commissioner has agreed to the data retention policy. I refer to recent remarks by the commissioner: "[I]t seems to be the case that there's an inadequate explanation of why they need it and why they need to hold it for as long as they are holding it." Has the decision on the retention of this data been made in consultation with the Data Protection Commissioner? Has the commissioner given express approval for the retention of all the details being collected? Is he aware of the Department's circular on this matter?

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Damien English)

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue and for giving us the opportunity to discuss it and to deal with some of his concerns. I agree that parents are concerned. There is misinformation and exaggeration associated with this issue.

It has long been recognised that there is a need for individualised pupil information to be collected at primary level to fulfil our requirements as a Department to ensure that every child of compulsory school age in the State is in receipt of an education and to allow us to monitor the progress of pupils through the system in order that we can develop an evidence-based educational policy. Such a system has been called for from sources as varied as schools, the National Parents' Council, school management bodies and unions, the Comptroller and Auditor General, the National Economic and Social Forum, the Central Statistics Office, and groups and charities working for children. The current system of record-keeping and data collection means that information provided to the Department from primary schools is quite often out of date by the time it is eventually processed and passed to areas that need it such as the inspectorate, school governance, forward planning and various grant payment and teacher allocations.

The proposed primary online database will allow the Department to have access to timely and relevant information about the stocks and flows of pupils in our primary schools. This will aid us tremendously in carrying out our functions and providing the best possible service to schools and pupils. Moving to an electronic system will also help to streamline administration at school level and to reduce form filling, red tape, and the duplication of information requests, thus allowing school staff to focus more on their primary objectives of educating our children. Individualised student databases are now commonplace across the Irish education system, as well as in other countries. Individualised data coverage is already in place at pre-primary, post-primary and third level education and a system is currently being developed to cover the further education sector.

I understand that people have concerns about the confidentiality of their children's data. From the point of view of data security, this data will be accessible only by a small number of people in the Department and it is stored securely on a server protected by Government firewalls.

The Deputy has raised genuine issues relating to the secure storage of the data in schools. I will revert to the Deputy with further information to allay any fears. The current retention policy for the primary online database, POD, data is for records to be maintained up to a pupil's 30th birthday. In future, schools will no longer be required to keep the official pupil registration book in paper format. Therefore, POD will be the official register of pupils in schools and the data will be retained to allow pupils to obtain their official enrolment records in the future, should they require them for any reason. The Department will continue to review its retention policy for pupil data in consultation with the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner. Discussions are continuing with the Data Protection Commissioner. The Deputy asked if the Data Protection Commissioner is aware of this policy and I believe he is. There is ongoing engagement with his office on the implementation of this policy.

The Department's retention policy is for audit and accounting purposes as pupils' data will be used in the allocation of teaching posts and funding to schools.

The policy also serves to trace retention trends in the education system and is important for longitudinal research and policy formation as well as being an important statistical indicator nationally and internationally. Aggregate and not individual data is used for the majority of these purposes.

The Department takes confidentiality very seriously and the pupil data are stored securely in the Department's Oracle database. This database is hosted on the Department servers, which are located in the Revenue Commissioners' data centre on St. John's Road. Access to the server is protected by Revenue and Government firewalls. Staff of the Revenue Commissioners do not have access to the data on the database. The primary online database, POD, application roles developed limit school staff to viewing and maintaining their own pupil records. Access within the Department to POD data is limited to the POD team, which numbers fewer than 15 people. No agency or other Department will have direct access to the primary online database.

It is important that people realise the information is to be of use to plan services. I listened to much of the debate about the restoration of PPS numbers and the debacle with Irish Water. Every Deputy knows that every day of the week we use PPS numbers in our offices. The first thing people who come to our offices do is give us their PPS number to help us do our work. As practitioners we use PPS numbers every day of the week, but some people in the House use every occasion to stir up people's emotions about the use of PPS numbers. Go into any Deputy's office and I guarantee that the first thing one will be asked for is one's PPS number. It is like one's address in some ways. It is one's identification number for access to information which people use in all Departments. We must be secure, and data protection issues are very important, but the hysteria generated about the use of PPS numbers is hard to take from some Deputies who use the information themselves every day. I have no problem with other issues of concern, and Deputy McConalogue is raising genuine concerns which need to be dealt with and explained. I wanted to address the PPS number issue because it is exaggerated by people in the House who know well how they are used.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I thank the Minister of State for his reply. I am supportive of a database being developed for the primary school system, similar to what is already in place for the secondary school system. However, genuine concerns have been expressed to me by parents and teachers, in particular school principals who are responsible for overseeing the collection of this data at primary level. This is why I have asked the questions today seeking reassurance. There has not been clarity from the Department on the development of the database or in the information being provided to schools and parents on the information being sought. I do not find in the answers which have been provided today the full reassurance I was hoping would come from having asked the question. The Minister of State has undertaken to come back to me on how this information would be retained in schools internally on their own computer systems. This is very important and I ask that the Minister of State does come back to me with further information on this. I also asked the Minister of State why this information will have to be kept until the student is 30 years of age. I did not receive a response today on why this is necessary. I do not see it myself, which is why I am asking for an explanation. We deserve this.

I am being asked whether schools will be penalised if they are not in a position to provide the information requested for the database because parents refuse to give it. As I outlined earlier, the information involved is quite sensitive. The Minister of State mentioned PPS numbers. There is also information on students' special needs, psychological assessments of students and students' racial profile, background and religion. People are increasingly concerned about how their data are kept. I would like answers on why the data must be kept for so long. Principals have been asking me what happens when a family refuses to give the information. Will the school be penalised with regard to capitation or the inclusion of the pupil in the calculation of the pupil-teacher ratio?

With regard to the financial support given to schools for this very onerous administration task being asked of them, I understand that €1.50 per pupil is allocated. This simply does not match the level of work and effort which already overstretched and financially burdened schools must undertake to collect this information. Will the Minister of State confirm the level of subsidy being given to a school? Is it €1.50? If so, how on earth was this calculation made and will the Minister of State revisit it?

Deputy Damien English

The Deputy has raised several issues and I have undertaken to come back to him with information on those which I cannot answer at present. The information on religion, ethnicity and culture is collected on an optional consent basis. I am not sure whether the Deputy is aware of this. Information on religion is collected solely for statistical purposes, and the data collected on ethnicity and cultural background will allow us to determine the effect of targeted education interventions on Traveller education or education for non-Irish who need more support. It is for genuine use in planning resources and directing additional capitation grant funds to schools which need them. The Deputy is sensible enough to know there is a reason for collecting information, which is to be able to plan and put in place resources. One can see the benefits of using proper data in school planning in recent years. This was not done in the past and schools popped up at the whim of certain Deputies or Ministers, which is not the proper way to run the system. Our education system has suffered in the past from a lack of proper planning. One needs to collect data to be able to plan and that is what this is about.

The reason the information will be kept until people are aged 30 is because it will be part of their personal history which people will want to use. We often go to schools for information from past roll books with regard to who was there. I believe it is causing concern and we probably need to bring more clarity to it.

With regard to capitation grants, with the best will in the world the old system often had duplication. We hope this will not happen in the new system and we will be able to have greater and clearer allocation of resources.

I will come back to the Deputy on the other issues he raised.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Frank Feighan)

Before we move on to the next Topical Issue matter, I am concerned we have overrun the time allocated and I ask the Deputies and Ministers of State to try to keep within the time.

School Enrolments

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Acting Chairman's intervention on the time issue was timely. I will deal with the issue as quickly as I can. The Minister of State is aware of the particular situation which has emerged in Kilcock, County Kildare, which relates to the difficulty parents have in enrolling their children in Scoil Uí Riada, which moved to a new building in 2008. It has been very successful and caters for a wider catchment area than most people would expect. It provides educational facilities in the town of Kilcock along with two other schools, Scoil Chóca Naofa and St. Joseph's. All of the schools are of an excellent quality and give an excellent service, but it just so happens, as has occurred in many other schools in areas with population expansion, that a difficulty has arisen in the current year. Many parents, some of whom are enrolling a first child, thought they had enrolled their child last year but now find they cannot obtain a place in the next school year.

I am aware this is a local issue, but it is one which can be resolved. I thank the Ceann Comhairle and the Minister of State for affording me the facility of raising the matter, which I am doing on the basis it might be possible to arrange a meeting, under the auspices of the Minister for Education and Skills, involving the patron, the school authorities and, perhaps, representation from the two other schools in the area, with a view to achieving a satisfactory and amicable solution. A great deal can be done on a subject of this nature at local level with encouragement from the statutory authorities such as the Department of Education and Skills, hence my request that if at all possible, at the earliest possible date, the Minister might arrange a meeting between all of the parties concerned to make a special effort to resolve the difficulty at this stage.

It should fall within the realms of easy resolution if we deal with it in time.

Deputy Damien English

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. He is right in saying it is an important issue, one of which the Department is aware, and it needs resolving. I am taking this matter on behalf of my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, who cannot be here today as she is attending some meetings down the country.

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter as it gives me the opportunity to remind the House of the significant challenges facing us in terms of meeting increasing demand for pupil places throughout the country in the coming years as well as clarifying the position in regard to the provision of school places in Kilcock, County Kildare. We had a debate on foot of other parliamentary questions in recent days regarding the additional funding that has been won for education which has nearly all been swallowed up by the increasing numbers with the change in demographics, and extra places are needed across all the levels of education.

The Deputy will be aware of the demographic challenge facing the education system in the coming years. Nationwide, the Department expects that it will be required to provide some 152,000 extra primary and post-primary school places in the coming years. It is vital therefore that there is sufficient school accommodation available to cope with these pupil enrolments to ensure that every child will have access to a physical school place. To meet the needs of our growing population of school-going children, the Department must establish new schools as well as extend or replace a number of existing schools in areas where demographic growth has been identified. The delivery of these new schools, together with extension projects to meet future demand, will be the main focus of the Department's budget for the coming years.

While the Department would be seeking to provide additional accommodation to meet demographic growth, it would also aim to ensure maximum use of existing school accommodation. A priority therefore for the Department is to ensure that schools in an area can, between them, cater for all pupils seeking places and that there is sufficient overall capacity. This may result in some pupils not obtaining a place in the school of their first choice.

The Department has recently completed a nationwide demographic review to determine where additional primary school places might be needed from 2015 onwards. On foot of this review, it has been determined that there is no additional primary educational infrastructural needs in Kilcock beyond that recently delivered or already planned and in train to meet the area's needs. The Department is not in a position to duplicate provision in any area when it has a requirement to provide some 152,000 extra school places nationwide over the coming years.

Gaelscoil Uí Riada, which was constructed by the Department at a cost of €4.2 million, is recognised by the Department as a two-stream national school. Its annual intake comprises two junior infant classes and grows incrementally each year to sixth class. As a once-off arrangement, the patron approved an intake of a third junior infant class for the 2014-15 school year only. This once-off arrangement was pending the outcome of the patron's proposal that the boys' and girls' schools in Kilcock, St. Joseph's and Clochar na Naofa, would offer co-education. The proposal originated from parental demand for co-education in Kilcock and followed consultation with all of the relevant stakeholders locally, including parents and school staff. The co-educational arrangement will commence next September and the Department understands that St. Joseph's and Clochar na Naofa have initiated the enrolment process for September 2015. All these schools in Kilcock will therefore offer co-education from 2015 onwards.

I also wish to advise the Deputy that the Department is in contact with the patron of the three schools in Kilcock in regard to enrolments for the forthcoming school year. The Department understands that the patron is consulting directly with the schools concerned relating to the enrolment matters raised. The Department will continue to liaise with the patron, which has ultimate responsibility for the governance and management of the schools concerned.

The Deputy has asked for a specific meeting. I can discuss that with the Minister and see if the Department considers there is the need for that to happen. There was a sense with the engagement with the patrons and across the board that matters were beginning to move. However, I will convey the Deputy's recommendation to the Minister and see if that needs to be arranged.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I thank the Minister of State for the content of his reply and I hope that the meeting sought can be arranged as quickly as possible. It could do an awful lot at this stage to resolve and explain the issues from both perspectives and that could be done in an amicable fashion. The longer issues of this nature are allowed to drag on, the more they exacerbate the situation. I welcome the Minister of State's indication of being willing, along with his ministerial colleague, to facilitate such an event.

As the Minister of State will be aware, there is an ongoing debate for the provision of a Gaelcholáiste in the general area as well. I emphasise that the demand is growing rapidly and much more rapidly than I thought. From the age profile of the people I saw at a recent public meeting in the town, there is a huge demand arising and it is coming much faster than was anticipated. I must say to the Minister of State that I fear for the Meath footballers in time to come because Kildare is ready and waiting to produce a new population to deal with that. On a more serious note, I ask that the Minister encourages all the parties concerned under the aegis of the Department of Education and Skills to come together in the fashion I suggested.

Deputy Damien English

I am shaking in my boots at the prospect of Kildare coming at us. The Deputy should start threatening the Dubs first after last week. Likewise, the population of Meath is growing as well, so there might be increased competition between Kildare and Meath in the years ahead, but neither of us have much to boast about at the moment, so we will have to work on that.

On the issues raised by the Deputy, he is right. The idea is that the Department is trying to get everyone talking and I believe the patrons are doing that at the moment. I hope that will give the result the Deputy requires, and if it does not, we will have to examine other ways of doing that. The Deputy suggested a meeting. I will convey that message to my colleague and we will see what can be done in that respect.

The issue is the future demographics, to which the Deputy referred. In fairness, the forward planning unit of the Department of Education and Skills has been very successful in recent years in planning ahead and making sure that areas under serious pressure in terms of demographics are getting their schools built in time and the school places available in time, which did not happen in the past. However, under this Government that has changed and there is now proper forward planning. We have the school five-year plan that will end next year and we have another five-year plan due to come out following that, which will specifically target resources in areas suffering from demographic changes where the populations are either moving to areas or they are developing naturally. Either way, the schools are needed and that demand is being met at great cost to the Department of Education and Skills, but the key point is that the planning unit is on top of the game, which was not always the case. They were not always allowed to locate the schools in the right place but now the right decisions are being made.

I hope Kilcock has been assessed properly. I would say it has but this issue needs to be sorted out for this term and this enrolment year and we have to work on that. I thank the Deputy for raising this matter.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Acting Chairman will note that we were good timewise in that we completed the issue ahead of the time allocated.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Frank Feighan)

I thank the Deputy for that and I appreciate it.

Tribunals of Inquiry Recommendations

Deputy Billy Timmins

I thank the Ceann Comhairle's office for selecting this topic. Sometimes something so surreal or bizarre happens that it seems to pass us by and this is one of those topics. The Flood-Mahon tribunal was established in late 1997, initially chaired by Mr. Justice Fergus Flood until 2003 and then chaired by Mr. Justice Alan Mahon who completed its hearings and produced a final report in 2012. Mr. Justice Mahon was assisted by Judge Keys and Ms Justice Flaherty. It is difficult to comprehend that the tribunal ran for almost 17 years and after a cost of around €159 million, we are unsure as to what the outcome has been. The point has been made that the inquiry led to Revenue investigations that gained large sums of money for the Exchequer in tax settlement payments. The planning and development (No. 2) Bill based on the recommendations of the Mahon tribunal is due before the House in the near future. Some planning measures have been brought forward in the past as a result of recommendations from the Flood-Mahon tribunal.

The nightly evidence re-enactments on radio were akin to "Scrap Saturday" and the public saw a side of political life that only a handful knew existed. It certainly exposed an underbelly. Rules governing political funding and ethical standards have been developed and strengthened as a result of this tribunal. However, years later we find that some findings of the tribunal have been set aside. There is uncertainty as to what the findings were and the whole process appears to have been brought into disrepute. Owen O'Callaghan won a case against the tribunal regarding access to original documents held by the inquiry due to non-disclosure of full information. This was followed by the challenge by Joseph Murphy Jnr. and, most recently, the challenge by Mr. George Redmond. Former conclusions and adverse findings have been removed. Some findings of corruption have been removed and some witnesses who were deemed to have obstructed the tribunal will now have their costs paid.

The responsibility for this tribunal comes under the remit of the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government. It has cost the State dearly. It is now in a shambles. Who is responsible for this?

There are lessons to be learned. The interim and earlier reports are now clearly at variance with what will, ultimately, be the final report. It is important that the Minister shed some light on this debacle.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Ann Phelan)

The Deputy has raised an important matter. It gives me the opportunity to remind the House that the Tribunal of Inquiry into Certain Planning Matters and Payments, known as the Mahon tribunal, was, as the Deputy said, established in November 1997 to investigate allegations of corrupt payments to politicians in respect of planning permissions and land zonings in the Dublin area in the 1990s.

The public hearings relating to the tribunal investigations, which involved 589 days of public hearings and evidence from 427 witnesses, continued until 2008, as the Deputy said, with the final report being published in March 2012. The stark reality is that the tribunal opened our eyes to occurrences in the planning system which are indefensible and which will, it is to be hoped, not be encountered again.

During the course of its deliberations, the tribunal published four interim reports, with the first published in 2002, before, as indicated, the publication of its final report in 2012. Court challenges relating to the withholding or redacting of certain information in witness statements, as well as against certain findings in the interim reports relating to hindrance and obstruction by certain individuals, were initiated by certain parties at various times during this period. Subsequent Supreme Court judgments found against the practice of redacting witness statements, and also against the non-co-operation and hindrance findings against specific individuals in some instances.

This has now resulted in certain corruption findings against certain parties being withdrawn from the second and third interim reports. These judgments have also resulted in specific parties now being entitled to legal costs which had previously been refused, with the vast majority of the concerned parties now being awarded their full costs. Contrary to recent media reports, it is not the case that the second and third interim reports have been withdrawn in their entirety; certain adverse findings remain in place. It should also be noted that no findings in the tribunal's final report and recommendations are affected by these Supreme Court decisions.

The tribunal estimated in 2014 that the total costs of its deliberations would amount to approximately €159 million. This figure was calculated on the basis that all parties would receive all of their costs. The recent findings of the Supreme Court regarding George Redmond will not, therefore, have any effect on this estimate.

Deputy Billy Timmins

To reiterate, the tribunal involved 17 years, 428 witnesses and, as outlined by the Minister, €159 million. It destroyed many reputations, rightly or wrongly. It brought down a Taoiseach. Yet, we do know not know its outcome. Where does accountability lie in this squalid affair? It is as if it operated in a parallel universe for which we in the House had no responsibility.

It is important that some time is set aside for a debate on this over the next few weeks, and that the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government comes before the House to give a full account of where mistakes were made, what lessons have to be learned and what changes to legislation are required. He should also outline the current status of the tribunal. I understand - I may be incorrect - that a number of staff are working with the tribunal registrar; perhaps they are senior counsel or legal people. Are the costings and payments for those people included in the €159 million cost? When will the tribunal cease operation?

As far as the public is concerned, the findings do not amount to much because people do not have confidence in what the outcome or implications may be. I do not know if Mr. Justice Mahon is still chairman. Some documentation has been published on the website but it is unsatisfactory. This House established the tribunal and the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government should come before it to outline the situation. I thank the Minister of State for her reply but there are no lessons to be learned from it and it contained minimal factual information on what happened. Where lies accountability in this affair? Nobody seems to be accountable for wrongdoing.

Deputy Ann Phelan

It is expected that day-to-day operations of the tribunal will be finally concluded during 2015, and as I indicated earlier my Department was advised by the tribunal in May 2014 that the estimated final cost of the tribunal would be approximately €159 million, once all of the costs have been agreed and paid. This estimate was prepared in accordance with standard accounting practice and the agreed protocol on legal fees, on the assumption that all parties involved with the tribunal and who were entitled to apply for their costs would receive all of them.

On outstanding third party costs, the tribunal yesterday issued a clarification statement specifically countering recent media reports that the tribunal's estimate of its total costs, that is €159 million, is no longer accurate as a consequence of the outcome of the most recent Supreme Court judgment relating to Mr. Redmond. It is also worth noting that the work of the tribunal has resulted in significant settlements with the Revenue Commissioners by certain parties, which are expected to defray much of the costs associated with the operation of the tribunal.

The tribunal has been instrumental in highlighting certain deficiencies in the planning system, which are now being addressed in the forthcoming planning legislation with a view to ensuring that the mistakes of the past in this regard are not repeated in the future. The Deputy said there is uncertainty regarding the outcomes. The tribunal shone a light on the difficulties in our planning system, and we are now legislating to ensure those systems cannot be encroached upon again.

We are always open to people trying to get around certain rules and regulations, and perhaps that will always be the case. Our planning system is far more robust because of the tribunal.