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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 29 Jan 2015

Vol. 865 No. 3

Redress for Women Resident in Certain Institutions Bill 2014: Second Stage (Resumed)

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The Minister has helpfully reminded us that over 10,000 women spent time in Magdalen laundries since the founding of the State. Approximately half of them served more than three years, not always but often following referral by State agencies – from industrial and reform schools, health and social services, county homes and psychiatric hospitals to the criminal justice system, including the courts and An Garda Síochána. She has reminded us that some of these Magdalen women were sent to the laundries because they were unmarried mothers. Others were sent because they had physical or mental disabilities or psychiatric illnesses or were elderly. Still others were sent as a means of discipline or punishment, often for minor or imagined infractions, following family disputes or as a result of abuse or neglect in their own homes. I have met a survivor who was sent to a laundry for stealing an apple when she was hungry. These are the women who, in these institutions and with State collusion, were subjected to arbitrary deprivation of liberty, forced labour, and inhuman and degrading treatment, including physical, mental and sexual abuse. Those are all very serious human rights abuses for which the State, in its failure to protect, is ultimately responsible.

It is in this context that I made my opening remarks prior to the debate being adjourned. It is in this same context that I now state most emphatically that, whatever their merits, neither this Bill nor the broader previously introduced scheme of ex gratia lump sum payments and pensions to which it relates, represent adequate redress for those women who were resident in certain institutions - that is to say, the victims and survivors of the Magdalen laundries. In view of the fact that last night the Government yet again refused to expressly include the laundries in the list of institutions to be investigated by its proposed new commission under the leadership of Judge Yvonne Murphy, the legislation before the House should, therefore, have been used to establish a dedicated independent statutory and judicial inquiry process in recognition of the fundamental inadequacy of the McAleese process that led to Mr. Justice Quirke’s recommendations.

As the Minister is well aware, this inadequacy has been recognised at international level and criticised by no less a figure than Professor Nigel Rodley of the UN Human Rights Committee. However, despite the Minister’s awareness, the Magdalen women continue to be treated as second-class citizens and, moreover, second-class victims by both the State and this Government. I appeal to the Minister, who I believe is genuinely and entirely sensitive to the injustice of the situation, to face down her Cabinet colleagues, including the Ministers for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform, and take care of the unfinished business relating to the Magdalen issue left to her by her predecessors in the Department of Justice and Equality. If she does so, she will have the strong support not only of those in Sinn Féin, but also, I am sure, from other Deputies on all sides of the Chamber. More importantly, she will receive such support from the victims and survivors who would see her as their long-awaited champion.

The Minister has indicated that she is fully aware of the criticisms of this legislation that have been levelled by Justice for Magdalenes Research, the National Women’s Council, the Irish Council for Civil Liberties and Amnesty International. Those organisations have described this Bill as "unacceptable, unfair and full of broken promises to survivors". This is because they genuinely believe that it does not honour the promise made by the Government in June 2013 to the effect that it accepted and would, therefore, implement in full all of Mr. Justice Quirke’s recommendations for a Magdalen restorative justice scheme. It is not just these advocacy and representative groups that believe this. In the past three days I have received no less than 85 e-mails and letters from survivors and others who share this view. Even if, as the Minister asserts, their interpretation of the Bill is mistaken, they deserve, at a minimum, absolute clarity and absolute certainty. We are talking here about a very vulnerable cohort of women. The Minister puts the numbers at 776 applicant women, although we know there are likely still more out there. It is welcome that the Minister has confirmed that the application process remains open. These vulnerable survivors want and deserve straight answers to their straight questions. Official frankness has been in short supply over the years. If, in the Minister’s view, there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what she both intends and has achieved in the legislation, then I suggest that she should meet those concerned directly and discuss it with them in order that they, in turn, might pass on that assurance to others.

Before I go into the detail of their stated criticisms of this Bill, I wish to emphasise that we are talking about redress in respect of inhuman and degrading treatment, arbitrary deprivation of liberty and forced labour. I further emphasise that we are talking about a scheme designed to persuade these victims to accept less than the full effective remedy to which they would be otherwise entitled under law in the interests of saving the State the potential expense to which it would be exposed should each individual victim take her case to court. That is what an ex gratia scheme involves, by definition, namely, reduced remedy in exchange for comparative speed and certainty of outcome. The women who have received their lump sum compensation and pensions under the ex gratia scheme have agreed not to sue the State in exchange for the full redress package recommended by Mr. Justice Quirke. This legislation must clearly meet these women’s legitimate expectations. Anything less would put those waivers on shaky legal ground and, as a breach of good faith, on even shakier moral ground.

The first criticisms that have been levelled relate to sections 2 and 3 of the Bill, which provide for supplementary health care to the victims, many of whom suffer additional illnesses or infirmities as a result of their ordeal in the laundries and-or whose economic disadvantage consequent on their years of forced and uncompensated labour prevents them from obtaining the necessary care within their own means. Mr. Justice Quirke did not recommend that those who signed up to the Magdalen scheme should be entitled to ordinary medical cards.

He went much further than that. This is in no small part due to his finding that over 90% of these women survivors already have a medical card or GP visit card. Mr. Justice Quirke's actual recommendation, made on page 7 of his report, was that Magdalen women should have access to the full range of services currently enjoyed by holders of the Health (Amendment) Act 1996 card, also known as the HAA card. He said:

As an integral part of the ex gratia Scheme a card entitling its holder to health services equivalent to those provided to the holder of a HAA card should be given to each of the women who were admitted to and worked in a designated Magdalen laundry.

Details of the range, extent and diversity of the community services to be provided to the Magdalen women are described within Appendix G.

Primary legislation similar to the Health (Amendment) Act 1996 or a statutory amendment to that Act is required in order to implement this recommendation.

Mr. Justice Quirke even helpfully provided draft heads of such a Bill at appendix E, in order that there could be no mistaking his meaning in this very clear recommendation. Notwithstanding the Bill's provision at section 3, which amends the relevant provision of section 53C of the Health Act 1970, the form of Mr. Justice Quirke's recommendation is the reason the survivors expected to see legislation in that particular form, and it explains why they are alarmed that is not what the Minister has produced. After what they have been through, this mistrust is entirely understandable.

Moreover, it is the survivors' view that the full list of services available to HAA cardholders is not provided for in the Bill. The HAA card, and therefore Mr. Justice Quirke's recommendation, includes private GP services. It includes "any and all" prescribed drugs, including high-tech drugs, medicines, aids and appliances. It should, therefore, not be restricted to the reimbursement list in the 2013 Act, as the Bill provides for at section 2(b). It includes "any and all" chiropody or podiatry services from any qualified chiropodist or podiatrist, including private practitioners, without the need for a GP or RN referral. It includes complementary therapies, including massage, reflexology, acupuncture, aromatherapy or hydrotherapy, once one is referred by a GP. Can I correct the Minister on the point that massage therapy and acupuncture are medically impugned practices – far from it? The entire Chinese medical system is reliant on acupuncture. It is not quackery; it is a scientifically proven and accepted practice. It includes counselling, including psychological and psychotherapy services, from any professionally accredited counsellor, to be made available to both the woman and her immediate relatives without restriction on the number of sessions attended and without the need for GP referral. It includes comprehensive dental care, including access to private dentists not within the dental treatment services scheme under the ordinary medical card provisions. It includes audiology services from private practitioners where services are not available within the public health service. It includes dedicated liaison officers to help obtain optimum home nursing and home support services. It includes enhanced ophthalmic services, beyond those restricted services available to ordinary medical cardholders, and it also includes private physiotherapy services. As I understand it – I reviewed the list and the Bill's provisions again in light of the Minister's assertions to the contrary – all the services I mentioned are promised services that are not provided for under the terms of this Bill. With regard to the Minister's suggestion that a physical RWRCI card could be issued to the women by the HSE, I welcome this and suggest that the Minister get agreement from her colleague, the Minister for Health, and make clear and definite provision for this to avoid doubt. I remind her that the survivors had every legitimate expectation that they would be issued with a physical card similar to the HAA card on which the Quirke health care redress model is supposed to be based.

If anyone were to ask me why these women deserve so much more than the average medical cardholder or pensioner, and the grounds on which they should expect such superior health care provision, particularly as I am such a strong advocate of equal access to health care based on need alone, regardless of circumstances, I would argue for it. The provisions in this Bill are intended in lieu of full financial compensation, which these women are owed by the State and by the religious orders which for decades either profited from or made substantial public savings on the back of the women's forced and uncompensated labour. The survivors gave up their rights to take the Government to court and possibly obtain greater compensation in exchange for this. That is why nothing less will do, and why anything less is not only miserly but legally questionable and morally repugnant. If the Minister can unequivocally reassure and persuade me in her reply that I am mistaken and that the services I have listed are in fact included, I will be more than happy to withdraw this criticism and offer my full and unconditional support for this Bill.

The next set of concerns expressed relates to the Bill's failure, despite the recommendations of Mr. Justice Quirke at paragraph 2.13 on page 14 of his report, which the Government promised that this Bill would implement in law, to make any provision whatsoever for the appointment of care representatives under the Nursing Homes Support Scheme Act 2009. This was needed in order that applications may be made to the redress scheme on behalf of those survivors lacking full capacity to ensure that their payments would be secured, protected and used exclusively for their benefit in a regulated manner with judicial oversight. This recommendation is crucial as there are allegations that some of these women may have had their lack of capacity exploited in order that their institutional carers or others would realise a financial benefit from their compensation packages and pension payments. I do not know whether there is substance to these allegations, which I have raised previously with the Minister for Justice and Equality, but legislative provisions providing protections against this very possible outcome should have been in place long before now, as a significant number of the survivors lack full capacity and many are to this day institutionalised in nursing homes or hostels run by the religious orders responsible for the Magdalen laundries in the first place. This is why in Mr. Justice Quirke's recommendations he acknowledged that "a significant minority will face difficulties managing their affairs".

I am asking the Minister to put on record whether appropriate assessments have been carried out to determine which survivors have sufficient capacity to manage their affairs and which do not. Can she put on record in her reply whether her officials have accepted any application from a religious order and made a payment in respect of a woman who lacks full capacity but who is not already a ward of the court or the subject of enduring power of attorney? We need this to be rectified urgently in order that such victims cannot be further exploited and the compensation package they have settled for is not rendered meaningless. The State must not fail yet again to protect this most vulnerable subset of the Magdalen survivors at this juncture. They have a right to independent advocacy. I have heard the Minister's contention that this will all be provided for in the forthcoming Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Bill, but I am saying that the survivors expected specific and dedicated provisions in this legislation, for the avoidance of doubt. That is what should happen.

The final area of concern is with respect to pension provision and the fact that this Bill utterly fails to implement in full, as promised, Mr. Justice Quirke's recommendation on the State contributory pension. The current scheme provides the women with the State contributory pension backdated to August 2013 only.

However, Mr. Justice Quirke recommended at page 40 of his report that the survivors should, as a consequence of redress scheme measures, find themselves "in the position that they would have occupied had they acquired sufficient stamps to qualify for the State Contributory Pension". This would require the back-dating of pension payments to each woman's retirement age. Anything less amounts to what I regard as theft from these victims. This would further compound the injustice of their already effectively having had proceeds of their labour stolen in the course of their incarcerations in the first instance. It would not be acceptable and I want an answer from the Minister on this. I ask the Minister to bring forward amendments on Committee Stage in acknowledgment that this was, indeed, stipulated by Mr. Justice Quirke. I ask the Minister to do so, as no Opposition Member will be permitted to make any amendment to this Bill that imposes a charge on the State, as surely any amendment to make provision for retrospective pension payments or additional health care and advocacy provisions would amount to.

I emphasise that the prohibition on Opposition amendments amounting to a charge on the Exchequer will prevent me from making the necessary amendments to the Bill. This puts me and others in an invidious position. I certainly do not want to be responsible for preventing any survivor from accessing any redress that is due to her but, equally, I cannot be responsible for allowing the Bill, as published, pass through the various Stages and the two Houses unchallenged as it is so far from what is necessary, what was expected and, indeed, what was promised. In its current form, the Bill represents a rip-off, and unless the Minister can give myself and the other Members her voluntary assurance that she will nevertheless in good faith consider our arguments for amendment once Committee and Report Stages are reached, I would hesitate to add my name to those supporting the Bill proceeding any further. In truth, I would rather the Minister redraw and revise the Bill, and I urge her to do so. Despite my strong reservations, I do not intend to attempt blocking the Bill proceeding to Committee Stage, but it is worth putting the Minister on notice that if she does not bring the appropriate amendments on Committee and Report Stages, my party will not be in a position to support the Bill any further. I say that regretfully and I hope that will not be the case.

In conclusion, I emphasise that even if the Bill, when amended, entirely fulfils the terms of the Quirke recommendations to the letter, as promised to these women in 2013, it still will never be enough to ensure that justice is done and effective remedy is achieved. The redress scheme Mr. Justice Quirke recommended was, by definition, limited to the mandate imposed upon him by Government, and related to the inherent limitations and flaws of the McAleese interdepartmental inquiry, which was in no way a sufficient, much less comprehensive, investigation of the relevant human rights abuses. As such, and without casting any aspersions on Mr. Justice Quirke, it represents but a pale shadow of justice, providing only minimal recognition for the abuses suffered by the survivors of the Magdalen institutions. What is needed, in addition to this scheme, is a thorough independent investigation of the experiences of the victims of the Magdalen laundries, either by way of a dedicated statutory commission or as an express component of the new commission of investigation into the mother and baby homes and related institutions that we debated yesterday.

The next speaking slot is 30 minutes shared between Deputies Clare Daly, Joan Collins and Maureen O'Sullivan. Is that agreed? Agreed.

It is almost two years since the Taoiseach stood here and apologised to the women of the Magdalen laundries. There are many of us who remember that day - the hope evident and the good spirits of the women in the Gallery, knowing and understanding that it was not a case that the wrong that had been carried out against them would be righted but at least there had been an acknowledgement by the State that it should not have happened and from then on, respect and dignity that they deserved would be delivered.

Some of the points made by the Minister yesterday, about such matters as access to the scheme and getting the lump sums so that it is provided smoothly enough, are broadly true. It has gone some way to make redress, but is that not really the point? It has only gone some way. It is the absolute bare minimum - the State has been dragged out - to these women. It is not even human rights compliant and even that bare minimum is not being delivered. That is an insult to those women and to people all over this country.

I take issue with the fact the Minister, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, is not here. I mean no disrespect to the Minister of State, Deputy Ó Ríordáin, but these are the opening slots on a vital issue and the Minister has not dignified the Chamber with her presence for them.

I also take issue with the tone and content of some of her remarks yesterday, which were not accurate. They were a little lopsided. They attempted to, maybe, give a sanitised version of what happened and, in doing so, were derogatory to the victims and survivors of these institutions. The Minister listed a broad range of circumstances in which women ended up in the Magdalen laundries. Of course, she was accurate in that regard, referring to women who had nowhere else to go, women who were involved in family disputes, disabled women, and that they were not all unmarried mothers or anything like that, all of which was true.

The Minister tried to say that we should not judge these institutions by today's standards. I have a huge problem with that because it is like stating that it went on, those were different times and they did not know any better. They did know better. A lot of people knew what was going on there and it is not good enough to state that everybody knew and that if everybody knew and those were different times, then nobody is responsible. People must be held responsible for what went on. It is not only me saying that. The United Nations Human Rights Committee forcefully made those points as well. The fundamental mistake the Minister made yesterday was to rely on the McAleese report and put that out there as the historical version of what went on when everybody knows that the McAleese report is a limited report that only looked into the State's involvement in the Magdalen laundries. It did not investigate any allegations of abuse and therefore no perpetrators could be brought to account or anything like that. It is a lopsided version of events. I remind the Minister, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, who was in attendance at the UN Human Rights Committee, of what that committee had to say about Ireland in this regard. On the institutional abuse of women and children it said:

The Committee expresses concern at the lack of prompt, independent, thorough and effective investigations into all allegations of abuse, mistreatment or neglect of women and children in the Magdalene Laundries, children's institutions, and mother and baby homes. It regrets the failure to identify all perpetrators of the violations that occurred, the low number of prosecutions, and the failure to provide full and effective remedies to victims...

It cited that as a breach of Articles 2, 6 and 7 of the convention. The committee then went on, in bold, to state:

The State party should conduct prompt, independent and thorough investigation into all allegations of abuse in Magdalene Laundries, children's institutions and mother and baby homes, prosecute and punish the perpetrators with penalties commensurate with the gravity of the offence, and ensure that all victims obtain an effective remedy, including appropriate compensation, restitution, rehabilitation and measures of satisfaction.

Here we are today with an incredibly pale shadow of what the UN Human Rights Committee asked Ireland to do.

I accept the Bill only deals with an aspect of the issues but it is the Government's lack of attention to the other aspects that is causing concern. Yesterday, the Minister made a point about an advocacy group. She did not name the group but I assume she meant Justice for Magdalenes. She said the group was somehow operating under a misimpression and banging a drum needlessly, and that the Bill was giving them everything to which Mr. Justice Quirke said they were entitled in terms of medical provision. As Deputy McDonald said, it is quite clear that significant issues arise that show that is not the case. It is true the card that is envisaged in this context is better than a normal medical card and that access is provided to services, but it is the nature of that access that is hugely different in this scheme from it was with the HAA card. People with the HAA card could get access to any service they liked anywhere, without restriction while all of the provisions in this context seem to have barriers. It is not just the Justice for Magdalenes who have made the point. Other who have said it include the National Women’s Council, the Irish Council for Civil Liberties and Amnesty International. They are all on record in that regard. All such groups have legal experts working with them and they are capable of reading legislation. They are not known for making exaggerated claims and, therefore, one would have to take their concerns with grave seriousness in this regard. I certainly do.

The point that has been made is that these women effectively signed a waiver that they would not take action against the State in return for the full package, and that will be absolutely undermined now because the full package would not appear to have been delivered in the scheme. I echo the point made about full pension rights being given to these women. They should be treated as if they had full pension contributions. Some of the women were basically engaged in slave labour, earning substantial amounts of money for the laundries and the State was a huge beneficiary as well. They are entitled to the fruits of that labour, yet the State has not agreed to backdate those payments as they should. The points made about the nursing homes support scheme and the need for liaison officers in particular are valid and well made. It is not just that it is the right thing to do, but it is also the legal requirement in order for us to be compliant with our human rights obligations.

Mark Kelly from the ICCL made the point that Article 14 of the United Nations convention against torture requires people to be able to obtain redress and benefit from an enforceable right to fair and adequate compensation. That has not been provided and it must be provided. In fairness, Colm O’Gorman spelled it out even better when he said that the women and girls in these institutions experienced a range of human rights abuses, including inhuman and degrading treatment, arbitrary deprivation of liberty and forced labour. He called on the Government to live up to its obligations under the Quirke scheme. That is not a lot to ask for regarding what was done to these women. Frankly, I am shocked that we even have to be here. I am particularly shocked that it appears a game is being played where the Minister is saying one thing and giving the illusion that what Mr. Justice Quirke outlined is being delivered, but the reality seems to be quite different. That is far from what we should be doing.

In the final minute remaining to me, I wish to read an e-mail I received from a woman who was not in a Magdalen laundry but in a mother and baby home. She summed up very well what the country had done to people like her. It is a reminder to the Minister and the Government as to why the scheme is on the table in the first place. The subject of her e-mail was “Unmarried, unwanted, unheard”. She spoke about being a survivor of the culture, the shame, the fear and the grief. She said it was an insidious control in this State that was designed to bring the women to heel. She said that because they were female, men were allowed to rape and run, and worse, if they stood by you, you could pay for the rest of your life in servitude. She went on to talk about her own experiences and how she got on with her own life. There are people at the back of this. It is not good enough that we would give them any added misery by dragging our heels on their entitlements, not even the bare minimum we are looking for. I echo the points made and appeal to the Minister to revise the scheme as it stands.

In my contribution I wish to echo many of the points that have been made already. The women who were here two years ago believed what the Taoiseach said. He is probably the second highest in command in this country. He said the State and the Irish people apologised profusely for what happened to these women and that they would be compensated in any way possible to make their lives easier and more livable in their latter years, and to show them more compassion and humanity. We cannot give these women back their young lives but we could certainly make their lives better in their older age. The contribution by the Minister yesterday was not firm enough in saying that this is in recognition of what happened and of the apology and it was to implement Mr. Justice Quirke’s recommendations.

I do not know how a Bill, which is primary legislation, can include in it a reference in section 2 to provision of a counselling service “following a referral made in that regard by a registered medical practitioner”. Likewise, chiropody services will be provided “following a referral made in that regard by a registered medical practitioner or registered nurse”. Physiotherapy services also can be provided “following a referral made in that regard by a registered medical practitioner”. The Minister said the Bill is based on the Health (Amendment) Act 1996, but it is not. I will outline what was provided to people who had hepatitis C. It is clear that the medical service and the card were of a very different type.

Once you are awarded the HAA card, you will also be assigned a Hepatitis C Liaison Officer within the HSE area where you live. Their role is to ensure you can access all of the health services to which you are entitled to and also to provide you with information, advice and assistance in relation to service providers. For example your Liaison Officer can assist you in locating a dentist, physiotherapist or chiropodist in your area and will make arrangements for them to be paid for providing you with care. If you wish to have your entitlements administered by a Hepatitis C Liaison Officer outside of the area where you live, that can be arranged for you. Likewise, if you prefer for us not to correspond with you or have information sent to an alternative postal address, we would be very happy to facilitate this.

The liaison officer provided a crucial service in terms of facilitating the use of the HAA card for people affected by hepatitis C. Why, in this legislation, can we not refer the women who were in Magdalen laundries to liaison officers? We are talking about approximately 700 to 800 people in the State and I do not know how many are living outside the State. Liaison officers have considerable experience in dealing with patients with particular needs in regard to hepatitis C.

I will continue to outline what was provided by the HAA card:

GP services, all prescribed drugs, medications, aids and appliances. Dental services, optical and aural services, physiotherapy, counselling, chiropody, home support, home nursing and complementary therapies. You will need to produce your card when accessing services in some cases, particularly if you have not attended the service before, however, the best advice is to keep your card with you at all times in case you are asked to produce it.

The information was provided by the Irish Haemophilia Society Limited to explain to people about their entitlements:

All prescribed drugs and medications once on a prescription are provided to you free of charge. Again the pharmacist claims reimbursement from the HSE. We do not wish for any HAA cardholder to be prevented from receiving any prescribed drugs and medications which they are entitled to receive and we certainly do not wish for a HAA cardholder to be placed in a situation where they are explaining their entitlements to any service provider so what we are advising all HAA cardholders to do....

Chiropody services are provided free of charge, you do not need a referral and can attend whenever you need to do so. Your Hepatitis C Liaison Officer can provide you with details on Chiropodists in your area or alternatively you can attend a chiropodist of your choice once you have given us copies of their qualifications as they need to be accredited to one of the accrediting bodies for Chiropodists. Further details can be found in the guide to services.

The Irish Haemophilia Society further advises:

Counselling services are provided without charge to all HAA cardholders and also their immediate relatives. The Hepatitis C Liaison Officer in your area will provide you with details of counsellors in your area or alternatively you can attend a counsellor of your choice. We do require the counsellor of your choice to be accredited to certain professional bodies and further details on this can be found in the guide to services or by speaking to your Liaison Officer. [No referral is required under the HAA card]... All routine and emergency dental treatments are covered without charge with the HAA card and we try to encourage cardholders to attend dentists already on contract to the HSE via the DTSS (Dental Treatment Services Scheme) however, if you have been attending a dentist not on contract to the HSE and wish to continue doing so, you should talk to your Liaison Officer who will be happy to assist you in continuing care with your dentist. Physiotherapy services provided by chartered physiotherapists are covered by the HAA card, your Liaison Officer will give you details of physiotherapists in your area and further details on physiotherapy services are outlined in the guide to services book... Complementary therapies currently covered under the HAA card are reflexology, aromatherapy, massage, acupuncture and hydrotherapy. HAA cardholders need to be referred by their GP/Consultant in order to avail of this service and the Hepatitis C Liaison Officer will either arrange to pay the therapist directly on your behalf or else will re­imburse you on production of receipts etc.

This is important because it is not included in this legislation. The Minister in her contribution yesterday stated that Deputies will be aware of recent investigations into spending on alternative therapies by the support group for hepatitis C which has been subject to public criticism in recent weeks. In my view it is wrong to put that out there in that it refers to the Positive Action group and these services were not part of their entitlement under the HAA card although the card covers complementary therapy such as aromatherapy and massage, for example.

The Irish Haemophilia Society further advises:

Optical services are provided to all HAA cardholders and cover any optical services - [these are entitlements] - which are clinically necessary, including the cost of your eye examination and whatever lenses you are prescribed. Access to home support service is available to all HAA cardholders who require assistance in carrying out their normal household duties and this can mean many different things depending on the needs of each individual person. HAA cardholders should not have to wait more than two weeks for an appointment with their liver specialist and also for the first referral to another specialty, this is generally referred to as the two-week rule. [This is specific to hepatitis C but I presume the Magdalen women have other health needs which would require referral].

The provisions in this legislation are different from those in the HAA card. I ask the Minister and the people involved in drafting this legislation to look at the HAA card and at the primary legislation which is the Health (Amendment) Act 1996, and to consider making some minor changes to allow for the women in the Magdalen laundries. We will support any such changes if it is brought back to the House. There is too much ambiguity and this poses a problem for the survivors.

It is very important to deal with the issues relating to capacity. I ask the Minister to explain how this will be linked into any legislation. With regard to the pensions issue the scheme provides that women with a State contributory pension will be backdated to 18 August 2013 only. However, Mr. Justice Quirke recommended that the women should be put in a position that they would have occupied had they acquired sufficient stamps to qualify for the State contributory pension.

In my opinion, if not in the opinion of others, these were labour camps. The women were used specifically as free or cheap labour for these institutions. I remember listening to an interview with a woman in England who had been in a home in Donegal. They were all young women and kids. They were making wedding dresses, christening dresses and communion dresses. Their nimble fingers were very important because they were able to work with fine material and produce fine dresses. That woman said the reason that home closed was because that work no longer made money. Cheaper dresses were being made elsewhere. These children were used as slave labour and they ought to be recognised. The State should make every effort to make it as simple as possible for these women to be able to access their basic medical needs without restriction. The Minister should come back to the House with revised legislation. We will support Second Stage and I hope the Minister will at least meet with these women and explain to them what the Government intends to do with regard to this legislation.

I will begin by acknowledging the progress to date to address the longstanding issues and concerns relating to those ladies who spent time in the Magdalen laundries. It is very heart-warming to meet those who have had settlements made and to see the difference this has made in their lives. Some of them live in Ireland while others are living abroad. They have waited a very long time but it has made a considerable difference for them.

There is no doubt that regardless of the time a lady spent in the laundry, whether a few months, one or two years or much longer, or, for some of them, their whole lives, every one of them was affected by what happened in those laundries. We are all agreed that what is needed is a fair, transparent and efficient restorative justice process. I wish to recognise the work of Justice for Magdalenes, with whom I have been very involved. Those women have been relentless in trying to bring that about. This should be the common denominator between all of us, that the process is fair, transparent, efficient and that it is restorative justice. My own life experience would convince me also that a collaborative effort will bring about the best results.

I was struck by the group e-mails which are titled, "Don't break your promises to the Magdalen women". This is the crux and we must ensure that promises are not broken. I refer to the Taoiseach's apology which was so well received by the ladies. It was probably one of those moments in the House that anyone who was present will always remember. The Magdalen women acknowledge that it was heartfelt. What struck them was the way in which the Taoiseach made the point that they were completely blameless. He apologised unreservedly for the hurt that had been done to them. He said they deserved more than the formal apology. He said that he wanted to put in place a process to determine how best to help and support the women in their remaining years. This was the expectation and this is what the Bill must fulfil.

Part of the concern about promises being broken comes from the shortcomings of the McAleese report and the disappointment felt by the women that it did not give a true representation of their lives, their pain and their suffering. Part of the reason was the narrow remit of the McAleese report which meant that it could not find whether there had been a violation of human rights. Almost 800 pages of testimony from the ladies had been submitted by the Justice for Magdalenes group but they were not mentioned in the report. Yet there were stories of young girls and women in prison - because that is what the homes were - working very long hours for no wages. In many cases they did not know why they were in the homes. Some of the saddest stories concern girls who were waiting to be collected because their families had given them the impression that they would only be in there for a short while and that the family would return to collect them. Some of them managed to escape but they were returned.

The length of stay is a problem in some cases. According to the McAleese report, a total of 61% of known entries spent less than one year in an institution but this is disputed by other research and by the electoral registers which show some women spent a minimum of eight and nine years. The UN Committee Against Torture criticised the report as being incomplete and not up to the standard of a thorough investigation. Other issues not addressed were the deaths in the laundries and the issue of the unmarked graves.

It is good that applicants do not have to prove that they suffered abuse or danger; all they need to establish is that they were admitted to one of these institutions. The payments vary, depending on the length of stay and there have been problems in this regard. Because of the shortcomings of the McAleese report and because of all the connections between the Magdalen laundries, mother and baby homes, industrial schools and county homes, there were hopes that the commission would be a more comprehensive and inclusive process. I suppose I am living in hope that the commission will go where the story leads it.

On the question of length of stay, I refer to the differences between what the ladies say and the lack of adequate records. The interdepartmental committee acknowledged that records were incomplete or non-existent for some women. The implementation team must make every effort to give time and space to those women who have a difficulty with regard to the length of stay.

The burden of finding proof is falling on them, which is much too stressful for some of them and is causing a lot of anxiety. For some it has become too much, to the point that they have accepted whatever proof is on record, which is for less time than they spent in the institution. Some, because of their age or illness, are not able to pursue the matter through the Ombudsman but others are going in that direction. The Department should give detailed written reasons, at the initial offer stage and at the appeal, setting out why the applicant's evidence was or was not preferred over other available evidence. I know the team is working very hard, and I must ask whether it has enough resources to do the work. We know that 86% of applicants have had decisions made. When there is an insufficient written record and the Department or the team meet the women, they should treat as a matter of urgency those women of advancing years and those for whom it is urgent that the matters be addressed as quickly as possible.

The three pivotal areas of the Bill are health care, capacity and pension entitlement. We know the first recommendation for Mr. Justice Quirke was for a Health (Amendment) Act, HAA, card to cover the full range of services. Yesterday on Leaders' Questions, the Taoiseach confirmed the HAA card and the Minister has also said it. However, there are grey areas and there is ambiguity. It must be cleared up that the full range of services will be available to the women. The Minister must come to the House and specify this in more detail. There are debates about angel healing and homoeopathy, but we know reflexology, aromatherapy, acupuncture and massage all contribute to a person's sense of well-being. It does not make sense for them not to be included. It must be clarified that the full range is available. We know some of the women signed legal waivers not to sue the State on the understanding they would have the full range of services.

Regarding capacity, do I understand we must wait for the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Bill? What will happen in the meantime, particularly for those with an average age of 70? We know there are ladies in institutional settings and nursing homes, some with mental health issues, and Mr. Justice Quirke found a significant minority would face difficulties. Something must be done in the meantime if we must wait for the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Bill. Perhaps the work of the National Advocacy Service for People with Disabilities could be brought on board.

There are also issues relating to the State contributory pension, which have been mentioned. The question is simply whether the Bill will implement fully Mr. Justice Quirke's recommendations on this.

I have discussed with the Minister the issues relating to An Grianán. We know girls in An Grianán worked in the laundry but this institution is not included. Some of those who were in An Grianán did not get redress through the other board, and there were valid reasons in some cases. This is where the issue of a finite time presents problems. Their experience in the laundries has been so horrific for some people that they may not have been able to deal with it through the redress board at the time. Therefore there must be some leeway on this matter.

I acknowledge the Minister's commitment on this. More has been started and progressed in recent years than ever before in the history of the State. We have many dark moments in our history, from the Famine to all of these issues on institutional care to what happened in the North during the Troubles. We must be responsible, adult and mature enough to take all of these on board and face the past and those dark moments. We must face them in a way in which we acknowledge accountability and responsibility. We are told the truth will set us free.

Dreadful things happened to women. Dreadful things happened in the institutions, and the religious congregations have much to answer for, but so do families and communities. It is disturbing to read of people and meet the women who were brought to institutions by their families. The story of one particular woman will always stay with me. Her mother died, her father remarried and her stepmother did not want her, her sister or her brother, so they were brought to a laundry and left there. She is a feisty lady who has made great strides in her life and has benefited from what has come out. These are the real stories . Sometimes we get caught up in the figures and we do not see the real people behind them. If the Bill is to be progressive, we must see the people behind the statistics.

I listened to the contributions of the Minister and Opposition spokespersons, and very little seems to separate both sides. Mr. Justice Quirke's recommendations were taken on board by the Government last June. The issues being raised in the debate are about the level of benefit-in-kind, and whether there is a difference between what is available under the HAA card and what is being proposed now. Yesterday the Minister stated very little separates what is available under the HAA card and what is being proposed. All she mentioned yesterday were homoeopathy, aromatherapy and angel healing. These are minor cost constraints, I imagine.

A total of €18 million has been paid out and 80% of the 776 applications have been processed. Mr. Justice Quirke stated that more than 91% of the women affected already had a medical card or a GP visit card. With regard to the issues at stake and what will not be provided under the card which may be forthcoming under the scheme compared with the HAA card, the difference is very small with regard to the actual services. From the Government's perspective it may be important for clarity to state the same services as are available under the HAA card will be available under the scheme. Yesterday the Minister stated every service available under section 2 of the Health (Amendment) Act will be available under this scheme. Whatever card we come up with should include all of the services provided under the HAA scheme in order that there is no bone of contention between the organisations, including Justice for Magdalenes Research, Amnesty International and the Irish Council for Civil Liberties. It is not a major issue or bone of contention and could be addressed with the new card.

Another issue raised is with regard to whether people who do not have the capacity to make an application are affected. Yesterday the Minister stated she envisages the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Bill will be enacted in the first half of the year. If this is dealt with as a matter of urgency and is enacted shortly, it would alleviate the other concerns which have been raised in the House.

I very much welcome the Bill and the Minister's approach to dealing with the issue, which has been very rapid and included seeking advice from the Department of Health. The issues being raised are minor in nature and can be dealt with very quickly to the benefit of everybody, including the women affected, which is what this has been about from day one. I commend the Minister on her speedy action. These minor issues can be dealt with very swiftly if the Government is minded to do so, and I recommend it does.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin, to the House. I also welcome the opportunity to speak on this extremely important legislation. Yesterday we addressed a further aspect of the institutionalisation of many women and children in this country over decades, namely, the establishment of the mother and baby homes commission. We still have quite a long way to go in the work that must be done to redress the wrongs done.

I wish to ask the Minister of State about the Title of the Bill, which in English is the Redress for Women Resident in Certain Institutions Bill and in Irish is An Bille um Shásamh do Mhná a raibh Cónaí Orthu i bhForais Áirithe. Is "sásamh" the most sensitive translation of the word "redress"? It seems to me a more appropriate word might have been chosen. The Minister of State is a well-known Gaeilgeoir and he will know whether it is the most appropriate word. To me, it seems a little questionable.

I spent many years in the 1980s living right beside a Magdalen home in Sean MacDermott Street. There I saw the older women who were institutionalised and the younger women who were very vulnerable.

It certainly was not a pretty sight. It was difficult for the nuns but it was extremely difficult for all the women and children who had been there. That particular Magdalen laundry did laundry for Mountjoy Prison. It was one of the more recent laundries to close and it has now been purchased by Dublin City Council.

I recall that shortly after I was elected to Dublin City Council, in 1993, I tabled a motion condemning the Magdalen laundries and seeking that a redress process be put in place. The only person who spoke in favour of that motion on that occasion was the then Lord Mayor, the late Tomás Mac Giolla. That was the degree of support I got for that motion at Dublin City Council. That is not that long ago - only 21 years ago. It shows the change that has taken place in our attitude to many people who were in institutions during the past few decades.

I am delighted that when this Government came into office one of the measures taken was the setting up of the McAleese inquiry, in June 2011. It reported in 2013. That was followed by the Quirke inquiry, and now we have the implementation of the findings of that report. It is all just an ongoing process. Part of that is the institutionalisation which was so pervasive in the history of this country. It was almost the Victorianisation of Irish society for a long period. Any problems were dealt with through institutional means. We relied on that very much over the decades. We have only been operating the redress process since 2002, when the indemnification scheme was established and the religious orders were supposed to put together a fund of €108 million. As of now, approximately €42 million has been provided, so they are less than halfway towards providing the fund in respect of the indemnification and redress scheme dealing with reformatory and industrial schools. There are many issues in that respect that have to be dealt with as well.

I am delighted that we are putting through this redress legislation, but I am also delighted that so much progress has taken place already. Some 86% of the 776 applicants who have come forward have been dealt with by providing ex gratia payments ranging from €11,500 to €100,000, and €18 million has been paid out so far. There have also been pension payments, including a top-up pension payment of €100 for those up to the age of 66 and €230 for those aged over 66. Before the scheme came into place, 91% of the women involved already had medical cards. Therefore, much activity has taken place already in this respect.

Of the 10,000 women who were in those institutions over the years, 27% were referrals by the State. All of this happened since the foundation of the State in 1922. Clearly, we have a responsibility from the perspective of the State. Some women were referred from other sources as well, very much on an informal, ad hoc basis with no proper justification. This was a problem, and often the way it was dealt with was by applying the phrase "out of sight, out of mind". However, that does not in any way mean that we do not have a responsibility to give as thorough a redress as possible in this respect. At last this legislation is seeking to do that in a comprehensive fashion.

I read the statement of the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, last night in which she rebutted the statements made by some non-governmental organisations, NGOs, and some advocacy groups that this legislation was not thorough enough to cover the main areas they had sought to have covered. For example, with regard to health serves, they said that an enhanced medical card under the Health Amendment Act, known as a HAA card, was not provided, but the Minister said that had been covered. With regard to people living abroad, she said they were being catered for, that there would be a liaison person in the Health Service Executive dealing with that. With regard to women who lack the capacity to engage with the system personally - there are many in that particular position - the Minister said that the Assisted Decision Making (Capacity) Bill, which would be completed shortly in the House, would deal with that matter.

In view of the amount of communication we have received, particularly from contact.ie, about ensuring this legislation is watertight, I was very much reassured by the Minister's statement last night that this was the case. I hope the Minister of State, when replying to the Second Stage debate, will be able to reassure us in the same vein and that the advocacy groups, the non-governmental organisations, and the concerns of representatives of the women abroad and the women themselves have been fully catered for in this legislation.

As only a few minutes remain before we move on to Leaders' Questions, I will ask the next speaker, Deputy Conway, to adjourn the debate in the middle of her seven-minute contribution.

The Taoiseach's historic, heartfelt and emotional apology to the women who suffered in the Magdalen laundries was one of the most moving experiences I, or those who have been long before me, have ever experienced in the Dáil. I welcome the progress made to date. What has been described in terms of what happened to these women was a national shame for every county and parish throughout Ireland where these women were sent, but 19 February 2013 is a very important day for former residents of the Magdalen laundries. It was the day the Government of this country believed those women. It was the day when the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste, on behalf of the Government and the State, acknowledged their hurt and apologised for the suffering they experienced after being admitted to, and working in, a Magdalen laundry, and the stigma that followed them throughout their lives. The State, at long last, acknowledged the extent to which the time spent in the laundries tragically blighted the lives of so many women.

The State has finally opened up its heart and accepted its moral duty to those who felt abandoned and lost and who believed they had no future. Dr. McAleese, although concentrating on the State's involvement, stated in the introduction to his report that for many years the chronicle of the Magdalen laundries had been characterised by secrecy, silence and shame. I want to express my deep gratitude again on the record of this House to the women of the Magdalen laundries who began a journey a long time ago to have the truth of what happened told and acknowledged. There must have been times on the journey when they wondered if it was ever going to end - if indifference and evasion were the only responses they would receive. With courage and tenacity, they persisted. Due to their efforts, the veil of secrecy surrounding the laundries has at last been lifted and it can never be replaced. We must ensure that these women get what is rightly theirs in regard to pensions and access to health care and that the Quirke report is fully implemented.

I welcome the Government's decision to assist surviving women in the matter of payments and other supports, including medical cards and psychological and counselling services. This address and access must not be obstructed in any way. The Quirke report simply must be fully implemented.

I have a long and embarrassing list of how women have been disregarded by this State. It includes the hepatitis C scandal, the mother and baby homes, the Magdalen laundries, the Savita Halappanavar case, the X case and the symphysiotomies - women treated differently and indifferently by the State simply because of their biology. I am proud to be part of a Government that seeks to address these wrongs. We have a historic opportunity to make things right for these women who were so badly treated by every county and parish that we represent in this House.

I also support the statement by the then Tánaiste, Deputy Eamon Gilmore, that there is a role for the religious orders which ran the laundries to make a fair contribution along with the taxpayer. I agree with him that these laundries were private businesses run by those orders which benefitted from the unpaid labour of women committed to them.

What contribution are the religious orders making to this process?

Debate adjourned.
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