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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 29 Jan 2015

Vol. 865 No. 3

Leaders' Questions

Yesterday, I received information under a freedom of information, FOI, request from the Department of Social Protection, as did RTE. It was very revealing by virtue of the fact that it was written by a civil servant. It was sent by the Secretary General of that Department to the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. It did not contain much of the Government spin that we have become used to. The first two paragraphs are redacted and we can assume they refer to the Government U-turn on the planned water charges.

The letter refers to the revised approach by Government and how it will impose an additional burden on the Department of Social Protection. It outlines the need for a project team, extra staff and how resourcing and processing the payment of the conservation grant applications in 2015 and beyond cannot be accommodated from within existing resources and the administration budget allocation it had received.

The letter also outlines what the Department of Social Protection needs to ensure that this grant processing process is delivered. It refers to consultancy costs, as if we have not had enough of them, and it mentions external service provision, including legal and procurement costs. It outlines the postal costs, as each household will have to be written to, the advertising charges and the administration team and staff required to support the application process. As the letter points out, these are the basic requirements, but if it needs to go beyond that, the costs and administration supports will escalate severely.

In addition to the millions of euro spent on consultants by Irish Water, we now have what appears to be, unless the Tánaiste can say otherwise, runaway costs in the Department of Social Protection to service this grant. There was no mention of these significant extra costs, as they are described, when the Government revised the charges, nor were they debated by the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste or the Minister, Deputy Kelly, in this House. This letter was written five days after the Government's announcement. It is a far cry from the certainty and clarity that was to be brought to bear, as the Taoiseach said, in this area.

It appears that information continues to be hidden by the Government, as it knows every decision it made on Irish Water last year and the charges associated with it has completely backfired. The more that is revealed, the less confidence there is in the entire debacle. The EUROSTAT test results will be released in March. From FOI and statements made by the Department in the media today, we know that it is still assessing the new initiatives, even though the Government made its decision last November.

Was the Tánaiste aware that this letter was sent? If she was, was it discussed with her beforehand? I have asked questions, as has Deputy Martin, and submitted parliamentary questions on this issue. We have asked the Minister questions, but have received no details. Other Opposition spokespersons have asked the same question. What steps has the Tánaiste taken to address the concerns outlined in the letter? Can she confirm, at this late stage, what the extra cost to the Exchequer will be as a result of the water conservation grants? What are the costs of consultancy, administration and other supports, such as staffing? Is EUROSTAT aware of these extra costs? Yesterday, the Minister said it had merely consulted the CSO on the rules, but not the content, pertaining to any such submission to EUROSTAT. Is EUROSTAT aware of the sorry saga regarding the water conservation grant and the costs associated with it because we, the representatives of the people, are not aware of it?

I remind people that the Government agreed, and announced in the budget, a €100 water conservation grant per household.

There was an earlier proposal to have a direct payment to people in receipt of the fuel allowance and the household benefits package. The Government decided that, because quite a few households would be excluded from that, every household which signed up to Irish Water and paid its water bills, as well as houses on group schemes or using private wells or septic tanks, would also receive it. That was a very positive announcement in the budget and it has been very widely welcomed by people, because it reduces the water charge to €60 net for a single individual and to €160 net for a household of two or more adults. The fundamental changes in the water charging structure means it is now affordable. The purpose of the water conservation grant is to assist households with conservation measures.

The Department of Social Protection administers about 85 million payments a year. It has been my practice as Minister, since the Government came into office, to seek to find very significant savings and efficiencies in the Department through reform of the Department system. A critical part of that is constant engagement, advice and discussion between the Department of Social Protection and other relevant Departments. In this case, the two relevant Departments would be the Departments of the Environment, Community and Local Government and Public Expenditure and Reform. This system probably did not exist when Fianna Fáil was last in government.

We completely revamped the system of dealing with applications for domiciliary care allowance, something many Deputies in the House will remember. We revised the platforms and services, and the times in which services are delivered have significantly improved. In setting up the water conservation payment system, we did the logical thing of setting out a plan and discussing the need for any additional resources with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. That has been the model followed by the Department not just for this new initiative, but for all of the reforms the Department has introduced in regard to its IT platforms.

That is the proper way to do business. I would expect the Deputy to commend the civil servants in the Department on having management structures which operate in the same way as a private firm. In other words, we make plans when we have to introduce changes and provide the time and space to work out those plans. The Department of Social Protection, as the Deputy knows, makes more than 85 million payments a year to people like pensioners and other people who receive services and income from the Department. It works to ensure they receive them in the correct manner, on time and at the appropriate location. That is what we want to do with this payment. It is no different from our standard policy.

Deputy Barry Cowen has one minute to ask a supplementary question.

It is more accurate to say I have a minute to ask the question again.

Those are the Standing Orders and I hope we will stick to them.

Is it in Standing Orders that there should be an answer?

The Standing Orders should be revised to accommodate the holder of the office.

We saw how they were abused yesterday.

The Government came forward with a set of proposals to allay a political time bomb and thought it had been detonated safely. This issue has been dumped by the Tánaiste and the Government on her own Department. I will ask her again.

The Deputy is using the language of his coalition partners.

Excuse me, but the last thing we need is to hear from Deputy Byrne-----

It would have cost €400 per house if it came from Fianna Fáil.

There should be order.

The Deputy does not get to speak too often.

Deputy Cowen has the floor.

They are a shower of hypocrites.

Perhaps Deputy Cowen should walk out with Mary Lou.

The Minister of State should be quiet.

It is military talk.

Was the Deputy against water charges?

I again ask the Tánaiste if she was aware that this letter was sent. Did she discuss it with the Secretary General of her Department before it was sent? Will she inform the House how much it costs the Department to administer the conservation grant, as she describes it?

It is a simple question.

It is a licence to turn on a tap for the next four years, by the way. Will she inform the House, as I asked, of the cost for consultants, extra staff, advertising and the payment structure?

What are the associated costs?

This is despite the fact that only 60% of those who have been asked to register have done so. That is another problem. Is the Comptroller and Auditor General aware of the extra cost and has he confirmed that it is justified?

That is not his function.

He does not have that function.

We are the representatives of the people and it is the Government's duty to inform this House of what is being spent and how. The Tánaiste has failed to do that and failed to answer my question, as she does weekly. More luck to her. I commend her on that feat; the electorate might not do so.

I think the Deputy-----

Will the Tánaiste answer the question? We can allow her an extra minute to do so, as Deputy Byrne is as interested as I am in the answer.

It is another moment for the plinth.

The Tánaiste also has one minute to reply.

That was a long minute.

Is it one minute to reply or one minute to answer?

The Department has put in place a project team which is scoping out a development plan-----

Like Aidan O'Brien scoping out his horses.

The Department of Social Protection has saved this country hundreds of millions of euro in administration in recent years-----

Was the Tánaiste aware of the letter?

-----because we prepare project plans and scope out new developments.

Making it up as they go along.

I understand why Fianna Fáil seems to be sneering with regret, as this is exactly what it was unable to do-----

The Government is in a hole and it cannot climb out.

The Tánaiste should talk about her Government for a change.

-----in its latter years in government, when it lost control of the country's finances. The Department deals with several new projects each year. We have a project development team and we scope out any new project, particularly the information technology developments necessary to deliver this payment to what is probably over 1.3 million households. These are the rough figures.

We aim to make this payment beginning in September, after people have paid their initial Irish Water bills, which I understand will be sent to people some time after April in a sequential manner. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, together with Irish Water, on whose behalf we are administering this payment, will send us the data. We have a project team. The Deputy asked if I am aware of this and whether I have discussed it with senior officials. Yes, of course I have.

What is the cost?

What does it cost?

On numerous occasions I have discussed it.

One would think it could have been scoped out before the announcement last November. The Government had two years to do it.

The Tánaiste should conclude.

The Government is making it up as it goes along.

We deliver 87 payments every year to individuals.

It is not capable of delivering this.

We deliver them almost completely on time and on target.

That has been happening for years.

We are now aiming to deliver a new payment to over 1 million households. Of course we have to sit down and plan that. Do I discuss it with senior officials? Of course I have discussed it on numerous occasions.

What is the cost?

The cost was obviously not discussed.

Go to it again, Barry.

I call Deputy McDonald. There should be order.

Perhaps Deputy Durkan has the answer.

It is snowing out there.

The difficulty arising from the questions put by Deputy Cowen is that everybody can see that the Government's handling of this unfair water tax has been shambolic. It also emphasised again the fact that the Government has been less than fully frank with people or with Members of the Dáil when dealing with these issues. Before Christmas, the Tánaiste's colleague, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, led us to believe that the cost of administering this sweetener, conservation grant or bribe - however it could be described - would be €130 million. The Tánaiste's colleague went to some lengths to create the impression that this was the total cost and that all loose ends had been tied up. We now discover this is not the case. I commend the Tánaiste on her preparation of business development plans-----

I thank the Deputy.

-----and all of that sophisticated paper pushing that she engages in-----

It is somewhat important in trying to save money.

It strikes me that the Department could have had those matters considered, analysed and costed when the debate was under way so that the Minister would not give misleading figures to the Dáil.

Like the Sinn Féin budget.

Perhaps the Tánaiste might make an attempt at answering this time. Was she aware of that letter and had she a hand in its content? More to the point, what will be the full and final cost? We have an entitlement to know that.

This relates to another loose end and legislation that the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, proposes to introduce in the near future. We all await the water services Bill 2015 with bated breath. In reply to a question from my colleague, Deputy Brian Stanley, the Minister has indicated that this Bill will, in the main, make provision for addressing any unpaid water bills relating to domestic property, including privately owned and occupied property, private rented accommodation and local authority rented accommodation. It is another loose end. Will the Tánaiste inform us of the Government's thinking or what is in store for those who do not - or, more correctly, cannot - make these payments? Will the Tánaiste please attempt to answer those two questions?

Sinn Féin is starting to sound much like Fianna Fáil.

The most erroneous figure I heard this week was the Deputy's leader suggesting that the water charges would amount to €3 million and the property tax amounted to €5 million in a debate with me on RTE.

The Tánaiste just said her Department made 87 payments.

That was the only time the Tánaiste beat him in that debate.

Despite the attempts by both the chair of the debate and me to enlighten him-----

Were there 87 payments? She said the Department made 87 payments.

I know that at the moment Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin are looking pretty on the plinth but, in all honesty, could I answer the Deputy's questions?

It would be a first.

She clearly cannot.

Gerry's advocates, with €8 million for tax and water.

Apparently there were 87 payments from the Department.

I thank the Deputy for having the sense to recognise that even if a person is planning a household budget for a week, he or she would have to sit down and do a bit of preparation. If a Department is planning a new system for a significant payment to most households in the country, of course there must be a project team and an implementation plan.

That is just good business management and political management. I do not write letters for the Secretary General of my Department. Ministers and senior civil servants are separate in their functions. Have I discussed it with the senior officials in my Department, including the Secretary General? As I said to Deputy Cowen, I have discussed it repeatedly. It is a major project, among other projects. For instance, we have major projects under way, by and large, on the efficiency with which people get their payments and on the need to develop and improve the Department's IT system, which was designed in the 1980s and the early 1990s. This is a fantastic opportunity for the Department and for the Civil Service to develop a modern IT system for a national payment to households which will be delivered on time and efficiently. Of course, it must be set out in detail. I do not have to tell the Deputy that even if one installs a new iPad or some other IT facility in one's home or in one's office, one has to sit down and work out how the new system will work. That is what the Department is doing.

We deliver 87 million payments and this will be an additional 1 million payments - a new unique payment to all households. Inevitably, it must bring together a great deal of work by specialists at different levels. We have very dedicated staff in the Department of Social Protection, many of whom work in regional areas, including Sligo, and who are top class at what they do in delivering services. This project will be like all the other projects. Through these kinds of reforms, the Department has been saving huge amounts of money for taxpayers and I am confident in the ability of our public servants to deliver the new system on time and at the minimum cost.

It is, of course, entirely reasonable that the Tánaiste would have a plan, a project team and so forth. Nobody is disputing that, but it is equally reasonable that when one is proposing a scheme such as this and when one is giving figures to the Dáil and to the public, one gives the right figures, inclusive of everything, including all expenses and all outlays envisaged. The Tánaiste did not do that. I do not know whether that was because she was not in a position to give that information or whether she chose not to do so. Does the Minister, Deputy Kelly, know the answer to these questions? Does he know what the full and final cost will be for this scheme? Can the Tánaiste tell us that? Presumably, she has discussed these matters with him. To repeat, that Minister went to considerable lengths to emphasise that €130 million was the full and final figure.

Although I have lost any real expectation that the Tánaiste will hear what I am about to say to her again - I apologise to her backbenchers if I sound repetitious and if that hurts their feelings-----

(Interruptions).

The Tánaiste talks about making savings for the taxpayers and of the benevolence of her Government, but the fact remains that there are tens of thousands of individuals and families who cannot pay this charge and this will be demonstrated on the streets across the State on Saturday when people come out again to say that to her and her colleagues. That is the reality.

Will the Tánaiste tell me what the water services Bill 2015 will have in store for those who simply cannot pay? The Minister, Deputy Kelly, informs us that this legislation will contain provisions to address unpaid bills relating to domestic property, privately owned property, occupied property, private rented accommodation and local authority rented accommodation. All of those people, who cannot pay, want to know what he is cooking up for them.

I would like to say, in particular for the benefit of people who may be listening to this debate, that my Department will put in all of the required resources to ensure the successful delivery of the water conservation grant of €100. I accept what the Deputy said that many people are concerned about this. They are concerned about having proper clean water in this country for themselves, for industry, for commercial and industrial development and for tourism, which will create the jobs of the future for our young people.

The Minister, Deputy Kelly, has produced a revised payment structure, which is now very affordable. The water conservation grant is to give people and households an assistance of €100. In regard to the Deputy's detailed question on the water services Bill, that legislation is due to be published shortly, at which point the details of the legislation will published. I am sure there will be a very full and detailed debate-----

I very much doubt that going on the Government's past record.

-----in this House, as there always is.

As there always is not.

In regard to the water protesters, the protest against our President, who holds an office under the Constitution which is above politics, was inappropriate and unwelcome.

The recently published European health index, which is a consumer index for 2014, gives a very poor impression of our health service. We are ranked 21 but in 2013, we were ranked 14. We have dramatically fallen back seven places in those 12 months. This index is compiled from combination of statistics, including patient polls and a general survey carried out across European countries. We must take cognisance of this survey, which is certainly a wake-up call. Appropriate action must be taken to halt this downward slide and to ensure we come back up to our former rating in 2013. That is something we must achieve over the coming months. We must rectify this matter before the next poll is carried out.

The report also pointed out that our waiting list data were lacking credibility. This research is based on data from patient organisations because the data were found to be much more credible and accurate.

Health care inequity is also very evident. Public patients are often on never-ending waiting lists to be seen by consultants. Their cases are often deemed to be routine, although according to their GPs, they might be deemed otherwise. In most cases, a more urgent referral is required. Eventually when they are seen by a consultant, it is only then that they are placed on a waiting list as such. This is certainly very unfair treatment and it is unacceptable for our vulnerable population and those who cannot afford to access the health services directly. The fact is that when people eventually get a hospital bed, they are treated very well.

According to recently disclosed figures from the HSE, 382,000 people were on waiting lists at the end of the year while 55,733 of those were on waiting lists for more than 12 months. What appropriate action is the Tánaiste along with the Minister for Health and the Cabinet taking?

The most important development for 2015, and for 2014, was the allocation of significant additional resources for the Health Service Executive. I understand people would like it to have even more resources, as would I, but we were able to devote very significant additional resources last year in Supplementary Estimates, and for this year as well.

As the Deputy stated, the survey shows that for certain outcomes Ireland is performing well compared with other countries. For example, we score very well on patients' access to medications and to prevention services such as vaccinations and smoking cessation programmes. We also perform well on patient outcomes such as cancer survival and reducing deaths from strokes and heart attacks. Our infant mortality rate, thankfully, is one of the lowest of all the countries in the survey. However, the Deputy is correct that we have fallen from 14th to 22nd out of 37 countries this year, and it is a very concerning matter. The main reason given in the report for that is waiting times, health insurance status and Ireland's legal position on abortion because much of the report is compiled from a combination of statistics, patient polls, including of people who use the health services, and independent research. It is carried out by a private company, Health Consumer Powerhouse Ltd. The authors of the report acknowledge that this fall in ranking is mainly due to their decision to exclude any published official waiting list data in the analysis. They base their conclusions only on the result of their commissioned surveys of patient organisations.

I would expect to hear from the patient organisations that, in terms of experience and all the issues we have discussed in this House, waiting times are a major issue and concern. That is why in the HSE plan the Minister for Health has committed to addressing waiting lists-----

So did the previous Minister for Health.

-----with a focus on very long waiters such as people who have been waiting longer than certain periods-----

What is the certain period?

-----with nobody to wait longer than 18 months.

The outcome of this survey shows we are very good at certain things but we have difficulties in other areas, and the authors specifically reference the issue of the difficulties arising in respect of abortion in this country.

I certainly believe in the credibility of this report because it is like for like across the board with other countries in Europe. We have to take it seriously and as far as I am concerned, it is factual and credible.

With regard to the staffing and resourcing of our hospitals, it was very worrying to hear this morning that the representative of the consultants and doctors group has denied the report from the Minister for Health, Deputy Varadkar, that there has been an agreement on recruitment and salary scales. That issue must be addressed in the coming days and I ask the Tánaiste, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Health to get stuck into it because it is clear that we are not prioritising the appointment of medical staff. Our nurses are under severe pressure as a result of an exodus of very well-qualified people who have left this country to seek work abroad because of various anomalies. Recruitment of nurses is a priority.

We must also build up our community care systems. It is clear in the report that community care across Europe is top class and accessible to the public. We are falling down in that area. There were aspirations to build up our community services but we have not reached our targets and are falling far short in that regard.

The necessary funding should be made available for the fair deal scheme. It costs €700,000 a day to keep our patients in hospital beds who need to be discharged to nursing homes. That is a waste of money. We must make the appropriate money available for that scheme, and we must also make available the necessary home care packages. I ask that this matter be taken seriously in the coming weeks.

Before Christmas, I co-launched with the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, the dementia strategy for Ireland based on funding both from the HSE and from Atlantic Philanthropies, which would be centred on the precise points the Deputy is making to assist older people in particular to remain in their own homes for as long as possible. The Deputy will see that around the country there has been a significant capital investment in community care facilities, particularly the locally based community services, which in a reformed service will mean that where people previously had to go to hospitals for many services, and even remain in hospital, much more of those could be provided at local level. That is a trend not just in Ireland, but across the world.

The Deputy referenced the issue of a shortage of consultants. I understand agreement has been reached with the Irish Medical Organisation, IMO, about the new pay scales for new consultants coming into the system. Hopefully, that will be successful because as we know, many people who graduate from our medical schools go abroad, as they have always done, particularly to the United Kingdom and the United States, for further experience but we would like to see as many of those people as possible coming home to build their careers in Ireland. It is hoped that the new consultants pay deal which has been agreed will address those issues.

Above all else, across the health system, partly because of the numbers of people returning to work and the additional buoyancy in income tax and other tax revenue, we have been able to devote additional financial resources to the health service but it is critical that we do that in a well-managed way that gets the best value and the best attention. I agree with the Deputy that once people get past the waiting list problem in most Irish hospital institutions, their experience is very good simply because of the sheer quality, dedication and hard work of all the people who work in the hospitals - the nurses, the doctors and the other staff.

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