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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 4 Feb 2015

Vol. 866 No. 2

European Debt: Motion (Resumed) [Private Members]

The following motion was moved by Deputy Catherine Murphy on Tuesday, 3 January 2015:
“That Dáil Éireann notes:
- that the financial crisis highlighted the deviation from the founding principles and values of the European Union (EU) such as solidarity and mutual respect amongst nations;
- the unsustainability of the debt burden imposed on Ireland and other European countries;
- that the debt burden is an obstacle to economic and social development;
- that Ireland was a casualty of timing which allowed for private banking debts to be socialised, thus sacrificing the social and economic interests of Irish citizens; and
- that there is an urgent need to recapture the founding principle of solidarity and work towards a co-operative effort to promote sustainable growth and job creation across the EU; and
calls on the Government to:
- support calls for a European Debt Conference in order to agree a common solution with our Eurozone partners; and
- work constructively at European Council level and with all relevant EU institutions towards establishing a European Debt Conference.”
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after “Dáil Éireann” and substitute the following:
“acknowledges that the financial crisis exposed flaws in the euro area’s design;
notes the significant enhancements to the economic, fiscal and banking frameworks in the European Union since the crisis;
acknowledges that sustainable growth and job creation across the EU are a priority and indeed was a priority of the Irish presidency;
recognises the importance of the founding principles and values of the Union, such as solidarity and mutual respect amongst nations;
further acknowledges the support of our European colleagues in the reduction of our debt burden through the lengthening of maturities on the European Financial Stability Facility and European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism debt, the reduction in interest rates on this debt, the promissory note deal and facilitating the early repayment of the more expensive International Monetary Fund debt;
notes that:
- Ireland has emerged from the economic and fiscal crisis and is now the fastest growing EU member state, and most importantly jobs are being created;
- debt is sustainable and on a firmly downward trajectory;
- economic recovery has allowed us to invest in public services and reduce the tax burden on individuals in budget 2015; and
- other programme countries are also growing strongly;
recognises that multilateral engagement should form the basis for discussions regarding debt sustainability and that the Eurogroup and Ecofin are the appropriate fora in this regard; and
agrees that the focus should be on promoting sustainable growth and job creation across the EU.”
(Minister for Finance)

I am glad to be in a position to support the motion proposed by the Technical Group and co-signed by Sinn Féin Members. It is a sensible and timely motion that Ireland would support the call for a debt conference.

Somebody in my office brought to my attention the headline in one of our newspapers about the Minister, Deputy Noonan, saying he broadly supported the concept of a debt conference. My response at the time was, "Sure, what else could he say?" because it was completely in Ireland's interest to support such a call. It would be in Ireland's interest if such a conference happened and was fruitful. Therefore, a Minister for Finance doing anything other than welcoming and being supportive of such a call would have been quite bizarre. However, as events unfolded and we got closer to the election, we have seen the Minister, Deputy Noonan, starting to retract and backtrack on what he reportedly said at that meeting. The Taoiseach has come out very clearly and said the Government would not support the idea of a debt conference.

I cannot get my head around that because this is not about setting ultimatums for our fellow Europeans or trying to have a showdown with them. It is about acknowledging that in many member states across Europe there is an issue with a large level of debt in member states and in some cases that level of debt being unsustainable. It is about the first course of action to deal with the problem. In any situation where a person has a serious problem the first way to deal with it is to acknowledge that there is a problem in itself. An addict addicted to a substance must acknowledge that he or she is addicted. In this case Europe is addicted to too much debt and to the austerity policies that heap more crippling debt upon debt.

A debt conference in itself is the signal that Europe is confirming that what has happened up to now is no longer the path we can go down into the future. We have to acknowledge that something needs to be done about the high level of indebtedness of some member states.

How can that issue be resolved? There are as many proposals for resolving the over-indebtedness of Europe as there are people in this Chamber. However, it is not about which proposal is better than the other, whether it is the Greek academics' proposal about buying up debt of member states above 50% of GDP and having a zero coupon interest rate applied to that over a period until the state's economy is large enough to buy back that debt, the other proposals over debt swaps, or proposals such as bonds that would be linked to GDP growth and so on. There are many proposals and we have our own that have been debated in this Chamber about retroactive recapitalisation and about the ECB holding on to the Anglo Irish Bank promissory note bonds - the debt that has been turned into Irish bonds.

All of the issues and alternative ideas could be debated in a debt conference. The fact that the Government does not want to talk about this is deeply alarming. There have been suggestions over the past number of days that the Government does not want to talk about it because it fears that if the Greeks get even a bit of what they want, it will lead to an onslaught in Ireland and Spain, where Podemos is challenging to be the lead party in the next Government. It will challenge the establishment parties that supported the austerity programme and did not look for the type of debt restructuring and write down sought by Greece. Therefore, the argument is that the Government has taken a strategic, selfish interest not to pursue this avenue out of electoral ambition and fear. I cannot subscribe to the notion because it requires belief in a lack of basic humanity and decency in the members of the Government. It is for another reason the Government has taken this direction, which is about trying to be the best boys in the class and putting clear water between Ireland and Greece. We have heard from Ministers time and again that Ireland is not Greece. Let us state other obvious facts, as if it makes any difference, that sterling is not the euro and a horse is not a donkey. Of course Ireland is not Greece, there are different circumstances in Greece and Ireland and the debt of Greece is unsustainable. No one can argue it can be sustainable when it reaches 175% of GDP but Ireland is the fourth most indebted country in Europe. Ireland has a debt of 110% of GDP and would be close to 120% but for a restructuring of how we deal with counting GDP according to the new EUROSTAT rules.

Ireland is looking to sell its national airline and is trying to sell shares in AIB to write down its debts. Ireland has cut social welfare payments to service its debts and make it more sustainable. Ireland is examining these options and has depleted the National Pensions Reserve Fund, which was established for the sole purpose of dealing with the pensions timebomb. The pensions timebomb has not been defused and still remains but the problem is that when we call on the resources to deal with it, they will not be there to make our debt sustainable. The Government talks about debt sustainability as if it is a simple equation. There has been debate about the sustainable level of GDP. There are simplistic arguments about whether 100% or 120% is too high. There is a statistical sustainability and social sustainability. It is a question of what measures the Government will take to make debt sustainable. What is acceptable for a society to squeeze the economy to make debt sustainable?

We see it happening around us. The Minister talked earlier about how Syriza is preparing to provide food stamps to the most deprived in Greece yet he did not mention the number of people living in deprivation in this State. Nor did he mention that hundreds of people are on hospital trolleys and that children in my constituency cannot get access to life-saving medication because the Government believes it too expensive. These are the genuine issues and decisions the Government must take to make debt sustainable. A question I have not heard answered is why we do not support the call from Syriza. It is on its own at this point. I have had the opportunity to read much of what the Finance Minister, Yanis Varoufakis, said. I congratulated him on the night he was elected having invited him many years ago, on behalf of Sinn Féin, to this country to talk about debt and solutions in Ireland. Listening to what he has to say, he is very calm and sensible and knows his stuff. The best interest in resolving the debt crisis is not about member states alone. This must be dealt with across Europe.

I was looking back at speeches from previous times, particularly in 2012 when the Euro Area Loan Facility (Amendment) Bill was before the House. It loaned €130 billion to Greece. The Minister said:

I do not understand the Sinn Féin position. Its Members weep for Greece. They weep for hungry children and families who have been bereaved because of the high suicide rate but then they will vote against the provision of the €130 billion that will allow education, social welfare and health services to continue. They weep, cry and get passionate about conditions in Greece but they purport to deprive the country of the very aid it requires.

The victory of Syriza shows us that €240 billion aid was given to Greece and €27 billion of it went to the Greek people, with the rest, 89%, going to debt servicing and repayment. I agree with the Minister's concluding comments in his speech in 2012:

This is a time for unity among euro area countries to try to ensure stability within the euro area. Ireland must play its part and stand in solidarity with its fellow euro area member states. It is in the interests of the country, the euro area, the European Union as a whole and the broader world economy.

He was saying that when he wanted us to sell us the idea of heaping more debt on an indebted country. He should say that today when there are people in Greece willing to stand up and say 'No more', willing to say that we will not allow tinkering around the edges but have gone on a crusade to try to convince those who have been wedded to austerity and the idea of more debt on indebted nations that the position is folly. It is the responsibility of the Government to stand up and say that enough is enough and to ask for a resolution, not on a member state basis but across the European Union. There should be no fear and hesitation in the Government asking to talk about these issues with its European partners.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the motion. No Member disputes that the initial construction of the European currency was flawed. It was the first time in world history such a huge experiment was undertaken, the coming together of a monetary union with different countries, individual governments and central banks. Countries were allowed to adjust their currencies and interest rates to accommodate their circumstances and, inevitably, it led to the problems we have all seen. The difficulties were not properly anticipated when the currency was created. Low interest rates across Europe, coupled with a lack of regulation, played a huge part in creating a financial crisis. Consequently, there was no European mechanism to deal with them when the crisis arose. This is gradually changing and new systems are continually being put in place to avoid the scenario in the future.

Unfortunately, unsustainable debt burdens were imposed on Ireland but it is how we deal with crisis that is important. The Government has made huge strides, along with others, to stabilise our economy. Initially, the Government worked tirelessly by restoring our reputation with our European partners and across the globe. We first had to prove that the Government has the ability and the resolve to do what was necessary to regain our economic sovereignty. This included having a Minister for Finance who was calm, could see the future and was able to bring European partners with him. Having achieved this, we were in a position to renegotiate our bailout scheme. We renegotiated our promissory note and extended the repayment deadline and a huge reduction in interest payments followed. This success led to a restoration of confidence in our economy by the financial markets to the extent that, on the country's behalf, the Minister for Finance can borrow money at less than 1%.

One of the immediate advantages was that we could pay off the IMF share of the bailout with money borrowed at a hugely reduced rate of interest. From a social point of view, it must be remembered that one of the first actions of the Government was to restore minimum wage levels to pre-crisis levels. We also guaranteed that core social welfare payment levels could not be reduced.

By contrast, the left wing alliance in this House would have taken us in the opposite direction. They hail the victory of Syriza in Greece as a left wing triumph. The minimum wage in Greece is between €500 and €600 per month. Syriza's election promise would raise it to €750 per month. Even if it makes this increase, there is no comparison with the rate that has applied in Ireland since this Government entered office, which is €1,500 per month. We regularly debate property taxes and water charges in this country. In Greece, property tax is tied to the electricity supply and if people do not pay their property taxes they lose their electricity connection. The Greek Government is already seeing that it has to backtrack rapidly. Its plans to nationalise the ports have been abandoned and it is honouring the privatisation deal made with the Chinese. Ireland will continue to work with our EU partners to find new ways of reducing our own debt burden but we will act from a position of strength.

It is important that we work together to resolve Greece's issues. Some 93% of Greece's debt is owed to European taxpayers, and €500 million of this is owed to Irish taxpayers. The ethos of Europe since its foundation has been about working together to resolve issues and that is what we have to do with Greece. However, Greece also has to do its part by working together with Europe to resolve our issues. Greece is very different to Ireland. We have a strong, outward looking economy, with healthy exports to European markets. Greece faces challenges in collecting taxes, building a manufacturing base and creating a sustainable economy. It has an inflated public service. We had some issues in this regard in Ireland but they have been dealt with. Like Spain, Portugal and Ireland, Greece will have to address its issues in the same forums as every other country, namely, in ECOFIN and through the troika, with the help of the IMF. Ireland wants to play its part but we cannot be bullied into doing so. We have shown our ability as a nation to recover. We will have the highest growth rate in Europe this year. Our European partners understand that any further reduction in our debt burden will not be wasted but will instead be used as an instrument to increase our viability and economic activity. This will benefit not only Ireland but also the EU as a whole. I commend the Government amendment to the House.

In the nearly four years I have sat in this Dáil, the majority of our debates have related in some way to the financial crisis, including the collapse of the banking system. Whatever we learn from the programme of which we, along with our European neighbours, are part, we must ensure the mistakes of the last seven or eight years are never repeated. Sometimes we wrongly speak as if every country in the EU is in the midst of a financial crisis. That is not the case, although some countries are in more trouble than others. In Greece, the situation for working class people is dire. Nurses, doctors and other professionals work five days per week for three days of pay. If that is not a crisis, I do not know what is. Athens has 140 soup kitchens. Working class people clearly have a problem if there are that many soup kitchens in Greece's capital city.

I hope the new regime in Greece works. The previous Government did its best and much of the criticism against the Panhellenic Socialist Movement, which dominated that Administration, was unfair. There are distinctive differences between the crises in Greece and in Ireland. Much of the debate in Greece was about public services, a subject that is close to my heart. It was estimated two years ago that almost 40% of professionals in Greece paid no tax whatsoever. Any country which wants public services and control of its finances needs a proper tax system. We have our own problems with tax evasion but the situation in Greece is a large part of the reason for its current problems. I was delighted to hear that the new regime, in a common sense decision, appointed a new Minister for tax evasion or some similar remit. That is an illustration of how bad things are for Greece. Those of us who have friends in or connections with the country are aware of other ways in which things have been sliding.

We may have gotten carried away building houses and flogging them to our next door neighbours but Greece's problems were of a different nature. Greeks have very little personal debt, whereas our crowd ran away with it in terms of buying four-by-fours. If one drove along the M50 in 2007 or 2008 one would think we were about to invade Iraq, such were the number of Jeeps on the road. However, one does not see as many Jeeps now. That is part of the fallout. I hope all of us can resolve our debt problems but we should not make our neighbouring citizens, including the Greeks, believe there is some sort of magic formula that will wipe away all of their debts. That would be misleading. I am not opposed to debt relief, however, and I believe that will be the eventual outcome. The majority of Members in this Chamber voted for the bank guarantee, which led to the first bailout. A price had to be paid for voting for a bank guarantee, particularly in terms of what was given to Anglo Irish Bank. That is a subject for a different debate, however. In this jurisdiction, we have carried out a programme. I do not like using the word "austerity". It is a very bourgeois word. When I was growing up we just used the word "hardship". The people in most working class estates do not use the word "austerity". I am aware it is cool for the career socialists to speak about austerity but it is an awful word. Hardship is much better, and people like Dickens used it. I do not know how the word "austerity" crept in but it did not come from the labour movement.

The most important lesson we can learn from what happened to certain countries in Europe is the need for regulation. Uncontrolled capitalism will lead some people to misery. We saw what happened here when it got carried away. Similarly in Greece, there was very little control over the banking sector and other aspects of the economy.

If one looks more clinically at what happened in Greece, it was of course the poorest who suffered most as happens in every country. They are the ones going to the soup kitchens and on the dole queues. It is extraordinary that the middle classes were able to shift their savings out of the country. I saw in a newspaper yesterday that in excess of €2.4 billion was moved. One will never beat the middle class or the upper class who always shift their money. The rest are left behind to go to the soup kitchens.

If we learn nothing else from this, we must acknowledge the need for regulation. There were people in this House not too many years ago who opposed any sort of regulation. I argued with people that if we had regulation, Anglo would not have done what it did and the retail banks would of course not have been giving out 100% mortgages to 20 year olds or loans to buy cars and 4x4 vehicles.

To return to my central point, I hope Greece and others get relief from this thing, but there is no easy way out. It is dishonest to try to make people believe otherwise. What Member of this Parliament is going to get up and say we should write off the €350 million Ireland allocated to Greece? I have not heard it yet and am not going to either. Regulation is the thing. If we leave at the end of this Parliament with proper regulation of banks and other institutions, we will have done something useful as legislators.

I ask three questions that relate to the Irish people. How will a debt conference actually help Ireland? Will it help the economic and social development of our country? As a country, do we need a debt conference right now when we are through the worst of it?

Yes, yes and yes.

I will never forget the day I met my neighbours and heard how they had both decided to pack up with their three children and emigrate. This family were like thousands of others who suffered because of the ill-advised decisions made by the last Government. When this Government took over, we had only three months left before the money ran out. Our country was teetering on a cliff edge and we should not forget that stark reality. Let us not suffer a national amnesia about what happened to our country before the Government was elected. This Government took action with the help and support of the Irish people and turned this country's economic fortunes around. Tough financial and monetary decisions were made and the Irish people shouldered the economic crisis. The Government reduced the cost of the bank rescue, stabilised the economy, and reduced the bank costs from €64 billion to €40 billion by raising the value of the nationalised banks and facilitating some asset sales. Our country and our Irish people took the hit. We made really tough decisions and the Irish people met the responsibility.

A total of €15 billion was saved by burden sharing with subordinated and junior bondholders, of which €5 billion came under this Government. Why have a debt conference now when it will essentially be a talking shop that makes no real difference to our country and our people? I am not interested in rhetoric or playing at politics. Loudly and clearly, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, said last night that our debt burden is sustainable. Ireland is on the road to recovery, has stability and can borrow on the international markets. The Government has taken huge strides to make our debt more sustainable and affordable and a conference will not help our position one iota. In fact, it will only muddy the waters. This is just another opportunity for the Opposition to harp on about what it would have done and how great its ideas are but I remind them of something. The Opposition's job is to oppose, which I understand, but those of us on the Government side have to do a real job. We are the ones who have reduced our unemployment rate in the last three years.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald was on the radio on Monday talking about abolishing the water charges, but she could not explain where the money would be found to fund this fairy godmother promise. The Opposition is floating the idea of a debt write-down for Greece and Ireland and whatever one is having one's self. This is a mere populist, media-hungry call with no real basis. It is a quick attempt at making the headlines. Saying "No" to a debt conference does not mean a lack of solidarity for other countries suffering debt problems. We are in solidarity with other EU countries, but we are also realistic. Ireland cannot be compared with Greece. We are not one of the PIGS countries. Greece has a 25% unemployment rate and is in a different place to us. While I wish its new Government well, I note that Ireland's economic forecasts are positive. The Central bank published projections yesterday that GDP would grow by 3.7% this year and 3.8% next year following growth of over 5% last year. Ireland's level of GDP is set to return to its pre-crisis peak. Let us look at the jobs market, where employment has increased by 80,000 jobs.

Our debt burden is not preventing economic growth. We are on track to exceed our job creation targets. These are the facts and this country is moving in the right direction. Of course, more needs to be done. More can always be done, but a talking shop debt conference will not help us one iota.

I thank the Opposition for moving the motion. It reminds me of something that happened when we were dealing with debt forgiveness in Africa. When one looks at some of the economies in Africa where a certain amount of debt was written off, one wonders if any lessons were learned by the countries involved.

What about Germany in 1958?

On Germany, I point out a little fact to Deputy Mathews. On 3 October 2010, Germany finished paying off its debt from the First World War. The debt was equivalent to 96,000 tonnes of gold. By extending its debt over a period of time, Germany was able to pay it off. One can see the economy in Germany now. That is the context for the last payment which was in the millions of euro and easily paid off.

Germany had a write-off after the Second World War.

Of the debt associated with Ireland, 80% relates to the fact that we were spending more than we were taking in. Any good economist will recognise that one cannot sustain a household, business or country like that. Deputy Shane Ross will agree with me. At the moment, the national debt is 80% of what we owe while 20% of the debt is associated with the banks. The bulk of the money that was put into the banks went into Anglo, which was defunct. When one looks at our debt and whether a debt conference would be of benefit to us, one must conclude that it would not. That is because most of our debt is associated with bad policies and bad management of the economy. It is significant that not one Fianna Fáil Deputy is here tonight. That party was responsible for the bulk of the 80% of our debt. In fact, some of the Independents who are still in the Dáil supported the fact that 80% of debt was the result of the fact that we were spending more than we were taking in.

The Government has changed the profile of our debt and spread it in order that it may become sustainable. Our debt restructuring has made it much more sustainable and possible the positive signs in recent years such as the increase in the number of people working and returning to the country to work. The key is not to have a talking shop but to look to the European Union and its institutions to help to sustain other countries that have financial difficulties. The initial talk by Syriza in Greece was that it would burn the bondholders and not pay back any debt, but suddenly that has changed dramatically.

They have already written off €100 billion.

It is talking about extending the debt or exchanging it for some sort of bond it will produce. The European Union is in a better position than it was in 2008 and 2009 when the crisis first hit to afford to sustain the Greeks' debt. While the European Union is in a position to support the Greeks, the Greek people must pay the debt that resulted from their economy spending more than it was taking in. Previous speakers referred to the Greek tax take. Two months before the election, the tax take dropped dramatically because the people expected the incoming government to remove all taxes. They live in cloud-cuckoo-land in which nobody pays for anything and European Union and Irish taxpayers will pay for everything. That is not a Utopia in which anybody wants to live and it is part and parcel of typical Sinn Féin policies.

We can deal with the debt in various ways. We can pay it back. Given that we have had a primary surplus since 2014, should we consider paying back our debt? I always believe in a policy of extending the debt further in order to make it more sustainable for the country to run it. I look at matters from two opposite positions, namely, the German and the American positions. The German way is to pay back debt, while the American way is to grow the economy. Our policy is to try to grow the economy. As Deputy Mary Mitchell O’Connor said, the Central Bank concurs with this.

A couple of weeks ago the Minister for Finance mentioned that our shares in AIB were valued at approximately €14 billion and indicated that this year he might sell 25% to 30% of the shareholding in the bank. While certain people say we should use the money to pay off the debt, we should use it to grow the economy further. We should invest it in infrastructure such as schools and the roads necessary for a growing economy and to give everybody in the country access to high speed broadband. With access to high speed broadband, people in the west would be able to stay there, create jobs and bring long-term, sustainable growth to the economy. I am delighted that the Minister of State, Deputy Simon Harris, is present and with the way he is nodding at some of the ideas I have thrown out.

Surprise, surprise - he is nodding at his colleague.

He is a tough audience.

Although debt was written off for Africa, there is still significant debt because the fundamentals were not dealt with. We need sound government and principles to ensure an economy grows.

I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. There appears to be some embarrassment that Syriza won the Greek election and is calling for the holding of a debt conference which the previous speaker referred to as a "talking shop". We have many talking shops such as ECOFIN and the Eurogroup, where we have failed to get this item onto the agenda. Syriza has a huge job ahead. It is picking up an economy from a right-wing government under which taxes, in the main, were not collected. As well as dealing with the huge debt, it also has to try to improve government systems, which will not be easy. I hope it will overcome the obstacles in the interests of the Greek people and we wish it well. Yesterday I had the pleasure of meeting Kostas Chrysogonos of Syriza and was impressed by Syriza's commitment and determination to try to achieve a sustainable solution to the debt crisis in Greece and across the European Union.

One would think the Irish Government would welcome the call for the holding of a debt conference and, given the opportunity we have, that Ireland could strike a revised deal on the bank debt. However, the Government rejected it before it even got out of the traps. Surely, as the motion states, such a conference would be an ideal opportunity to address the massive burden placed on ordinary citizens in the nationalisation and socialisation of a debt accrued by private individuals and banks. It is ironic that institutions such as Anglo Irish Bank and their counterparts in other EU countries which operated with minimal respect for the economic and social interests of the states in which they operated were able to pass their debts over to the citizens so easily, particularly in this state. The citizens of Greece and Ireland have been subjected to years of austerity far out of synch with any normal adjustment that might be expected on foot of an economic downturn. The Irish people have been left carrying an very unfair burden and an unfair share of the European bank debt. Previous speakers were right when they said Ireland was not Greece. It is very different from it. However, this is the fourth most indebted country in the European Union and people are carrying large private debts.

We have more private and banking debt per person than anywhere else in the European Union and this issue has not been dealt with. The Government has given the banks a veto. Almost three years ago, when there was talk about legislation on private and mortgage debts, we pointed out that we should not have given the banks a veto. Unfortunately, the legislation the Government passed on the personal insolvency arrangements gave the banks a veto, which they have used time and again. A large number of people are not getting relief. We are worse than the Greeks on this, unfortunately.

While the overall debt figure for the State is 110% of GDP, lower than that for Greece at 177% of GDP, private and business debt is much higher and we must try to deal with it. I have flagged it for the Minister’s attention. The fact that we have taken on such a massive debt means that even when the economic figures are improving, we are being held back by the debt crisis. This is because of the debt and the European Union's refusal centrally to come to a more reasonable arrangement with countries such as Ireland and Greece. The European Central Bank has recognised that a large stimulus is required, if the European economy is to grow properly, recover and create jobs. While this is recognised across the political and ideological spectrum, it is not recognised by the European Union or the Government. As the motion points out, this flies in the face of the supposed objectives of the European Union and its talk about fostering social solidarity, respect and parity between nations. Where is the parity? The objectives of the European Union's founders have been lost. It is surely ironic that the two Government parties which are from the traditions that brought the European Union about seem to be backing away from them.

Although the Government claims we do not need a debt conference because we have fora such as ECOFIN, the Council of Ministers and the Eurogroup, it is not even on the agenda. In June 2012 the Government stated it had a game changer regarding retrospective capitalisation of the banks. Where is it?

The Government dropped it over Christmas while the media was on down-time. That is a huge a problem for this State and needs to be dealt with. Will the Government parties reconsider their opposition to a debt conference? There are countries which may not be the same as ours but they face similar problems and Greece is one. Surely there would be more strength in more than one player asking for the same thing. We should be uniting in common cause with those people. The Government should forget about being proud and everything else. We must get a deal and get relief for the Irish people and the citizens of Europe.

After four years here I cannot get my head around the fact that this Government has not asked for a write-down, and refuses to request a recapitalisation. It is astonishing that the government of a country as indebted as ours would turn its face against a proposition such as a European debt conference.

The explanation of the Minister for Finance is that the country's debt is sustainable. The debate on whether this debt is sustainable will unfortunately be held by our grandchildren. Sustainability is also a moral issue. Is it sustainable for a country to pay debt while its people are dying on hospital trolleys? Is it sustainable that a person would suffer a lifelong debilitating paralysis due to having had a stroke while waiting an hour and a half for an ambulance because this State has diverted money away from that service? Is it sustainable for a third of a million people to emigrate over a very short time because money is diverted from investment into bondholders’ pockets? The State’s debt levels might be sustainable in the mind of the Ministers who earn six figure salaries, but not for the 164,844 people who are long-term unemployed in this State or languishing on the live register, the 34% of workers who earn less than €20,000 a year. If that is added to the 10% on the live register it shows 44% of the working population is on an income of less than €20,000 a year.

The Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, referred to Syriza's election manifesto commitment to give food stamps to the poorest citizens to show the difference between Ireland and Greece. At one level the Minister is right; Ireland is different from Greece. If one includes personal debt Ireland’s debt is far higher than Greece's debt. That is the scary difference. On a day-to-day level we are not that different. In the run-up to Christmas 2,000 people in one day queued outside Dublin's Capuchin Day Centre for food parcels, the second highest turnout in the 40 years of that service. Hundreds of people, including children, queue for the breakfast and dinner in the Capuchin centre. The latest CSO figures tell us the number of children living in consistent poverty has doubled between 2008 and 2013. Every day 135,000 children face material deprivation.

The fact that our three-month Treasury bill may have been at a zero rate a week ago is of little comfort to a family stuck in a hotel room because the State will not provide the necessary housing for a family. It is of little comfort to a family that goes to the local petrol station to fill a five gallon drum with kerosene because it cannot afford, on these freezing nights, to fill the oil tank at the back of its house. Ireland’s debt is not sustainable and to say so is reckless in respect of the needs of this country.

The moral case for debt write-down goes hand-in-hand with the economic one, and not just in Greece. EU leaders keep telling us that we have learned the lessons of the crisis yet the Minister and his Council counterparts refuse to grip the thorny issue of debt. Debt is the millstone around the neck of the people. It is the brake on growth. It is the primary reason for Europe’s current economic stagnation. Indebted families cannot put food on the table, indebted businesses cannot grow, and indebted governments cannot invest. Whichever way one looks at it, this Government is failing on both fronts, economically and morally.

Fine Gael and Labour also appear to be suffering from Stockholm syndrome. It is amazing that Ireland, having suffered all that I have described, is now part of the group preventing other countries seeking debt write-down. This despite having been abused and ignored at ECOFIN meetings and having been fiscally water-boarded, as Yanis Varoufakis has said, by our so-called European allies. The Minister for Finance and this Cabinet are now rounding on Greece’s desire to seek a write-down for itself. Yanis Varoufakis has stated this is not only in the interests of Greece and the Greek people but also in those of other countries in a similar situation, such as Ireland. The Irish Government is a quisling regime imposing society-crushing diktats against the wishes of the Irish people.

The Greek Government has done more in two weeks for Irish interests than this Government has done in four years.

I congratulate Deputy Catherine Murphy on bringing forward this motion in a timely fashion. It is causing deep embarrassment to the Government and I congratulate her on that too. Debt is probably the debate of the decade. This is the big problem which will haunt us for years to come but has already haunted us for four or five years. The Government’s reluctance to debate or talk about it is very telling.

The mention of a debt conference which sounds so innocent is very threatening. Those who say it is code for debt relief or debt forgiveness are right. That is what will be sought from a debt conference. That is what the Greeks are looking for and what Ireland should look for from such a conference.

We have common interests. What is so patently obvious from the result of the Greek election is that it is a terrible embarrassment for the Irish Government that someone should be elected as head or Prime Minister of a friendly nation who is carrying a torch for the Irish people which the Irish Government will not carry. We are now in an absurd situation where we are backing away from a foreign Prime Minister who is representing our interests in Berlin and Brussels. We are running away from it. This is crazy and the reason is apparent. We all know what it is. It has been eloquently articulated here this evening by many, that the Irish Government if Syriza and Mr. Tsipras achieve what they are looking for will be deeply embarrassed.

What is happening in Europe today and will happen for the next week or two is a battle between Greece and Germany. Ireland, to its shame, is siding with Germany. Our Government has decided to take the shilling or the applause from the big countries and to sacrifice the interests of the Irish people. It is as bad and as embarrassing as that. The reason is clear. It is not necessarily because we love the plaudits we get from Angela Merkel and the heads of Europe but it is because the policies we followed, the decision that was made when the Government came into power will be exposed as a strategy in ruins. The Minister and everybody else know that if Mr. Tsipras gets a red cent off his debt we should be looking for the same red cent. Not only should we be looking for that but we will be asked why we did not get it in the years gone by. Why did we not stand up when we said we would before going into government, as Mr. Tsipras did, and demand those things that the Government parties when in opposition said they would look for? Why did we roll over when this was there for the taking? That is the lesson to be learnt from the refusal to have a debt conference.

It would open an appalling vista of exposure and shame for this Government in terms of it not being able to deliver what the new Greek Government could deliver. That is why it is being opposed, and for no other reason. It is to save political embarrassment in the context of the forthcoming general election. This Government could have saved billions of euro by having debt written off in the way Greece will have it written off in the weeks to come.

The Irish Government is the scab of Europe right now. The people of Greece have risen up, finally, and said they have had enough of the madness; that they cannot take any more; that they will not allow suicide rates to go through the roof or child poverty to reach obscene proportions; that they will not allow their public services and State assets to be butchered to pieces or allow prostitution to get out of control; and that they will not allow people to starve because of the insistence of European bankers and financial institutions and their political lackeys that the interests of Europe's financial elite be protected. While I thank Deputy Catherine Murphy for tabling this motion the people to whom we owe real gratitude are the Greek people, the Spanish people who will rise up after the upcoming elections there and the people of this country who have risen up in the past couple of months against not only water charges but about the failed and bankrupt policy of austerity. The people have had it with austerity.

During the press conference on this issue yesterday, Brian Lucey, not a man associated with the radical left, reminded us of a point the Government should consider. He said we need to remember that we are talking about a political economy and not economics as if it is some dry science in respect of which there is a right and wrong answer. One does not even have to quote Marx on this. Adam Smith and David Ricardo understood that economics was about political choices and not only about obeying the rules set down by the troika or the financial elites. The following is an interesting quote from the The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith:

People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.

I refer Deputies to The Bankers and The Rise of the European Corporate Elite. We have been told there was no choice. This Government has recycled the nonsense for the past seven years that there was no choice when in fact there was a choice. There was a choice between the millionaires and the millions who have suffered as a result of the choice of this Government to protect the millionaires, the bond holders and the bankers. Finally, people in Europe are rising up. They are sweeping aside a rotten political establishment that has stood by and facilitated this looting of the European economy and the savage injustice that has been inflicted on ordinary people. The Irish Government treacherously scabs on this movement. It stabs in the back not only the citizens of Greece but the citizens of Spain, of this country and all people across Europe. Deprivation is widespread across Europe. The level of deprivation now stands at 16%.

One of the Labour Deputies referred earlier to there being soup kitchens in Greece and said that Ireland is totally different from Greece. There are two soup kitchens in Dún Laoghaire.

I believe that.

There are many soup kitchens all over this country, yet we are trying to pretend we are different. On what planet is this Government living? It is time to stand in solidarity with the people of Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Britain, where child poverty is going through the roof, and with German workers. This is not about us versus Germany. This is about us against the financial elites and their political lackeys like Angela Merkel. Frankly, this Government has been part of the axis that has stood with the millionaires against the millions. It is about time it listened to the voice of the millions and put their concerns and needs first instead of the people who bankrupted Europe.

I commend Deputy Catherine Murphy on bringing forth this motion. The dog in the street knows that, like Ireland, most countries in Europe, including Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain, the PIGS, are carrying burdens they cannot afford. Every citizen in this country has bailed out the banks, in return for which they faced the big wand-stick from the Europeans, some of them unelected bureaucrats, in relation to how we should run our business.

People in this country are being evicted from their homes while at the same time the Government stands by the banks who are treating them with contempt. I was not involved in politics in 2011 but I listened every night to what was going on. I have heard how we had to do this, that and the other to pay our doctors and nurses, that Europe would not let us retain our own currency and that if we did so it would be the end of the world for us. The reality is we are now in a period of quantitative easing and the euro has lost approximately 20% of its value. What if we had gone down that other road? I believe it would have been a better road than the road we chose.

Greece is leading the pack. People in every country are living in deprivation. When it comes to the situation in which we find ourselves, I am reminded of a farmer travelling the road with debt in the back of his trailer, only to park it down the by-road. Current government debt is approximately €205 billion. We need to put up our hands and say that as a nation we cannot repay that debt. We need to call time on pulling the cover over our heads. We are in denial. Sooner or later we will have to say "stop".

I ask that the Government take on board this motion tabled by Deputy Catherine Murphy. Europe has trampled upon us in the past few years. The people of Ireland will speak in 11, 12 or 13 months' time. If Government does not listen to them now it will get its answer in 11, 12 or 13 months' time. The people are crying out for help and for solutions. When we joined Europe it was a community. Now, Europe is engaged in bullying tactics in terms of telling us what, as a nation, we can do. Let us go to Europe and support the Greeks and the Spanish. Let us go there and stand in solidarity in support of communities working together and not allow a few countries to bully us and tell us how to live our lives. The time for that is up. Let us face reality.

This motion refers to the founding principles and values of the European Union. Above all else, the Union was founded on the values of respect for human dignity, liberty, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights. When in Europe last week at a meeting of the Council of Europe's Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights, it struck me, as I listened to the cases being discussed, that there is a huge moral dilemma surrounding the way the Irish people were abandoned to bear the entire cost of this unjust financial burden. The knock-on effect of this has been a series of human rights injustices that would not be out of place at a Council of Europe hearing. I will give one example of this. At a Women and Economic Inequality seminar in Dublin last week, front-line workers painted a stark and deeply disturbing picture of the awful and shameful deprivation that women in this country are experiencing. Among the speakers at the conference were representatives of the National Women's Council of Ireland, Oxfam, the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission and the European Women's Lobby who noted that lone parents in particular were living in poverty and going hungry so that they could feed their children, that households with one adult and children are burdened by more debt than all other types of households, that low pay is endemic for women in the hospitality, cleaning and retail sectors and that more women are being pushed into insecurity.

They described how some desperate women are now forced to turn to prostitution to pay their household bills. Front-line workers in all these organisations noted that in the 1980s and 1990s the majority of prostitutes would have been drug addicts trying to feed their habit, whereas now educated women are resorting to it out of dire economic need. I am also aware of several cases where struggling women who took out short-term loans with illegal moneylenders have been forced into prostitution to repay spiralling interest rates on their loans. If that does not constitute a human rights injustice, I do not know what does.

The debt burden taken on during the financial crisis will pass to the next generations at the expense of investment in areas such as infrastructure, education and health. There is a strong moral and economic case for the Government to fund an ambitious programme of public investment focused on areas such as infrastructure, social housing, education, especially in early years, as well as employment services and supports. This will hardly happen with the debts we must pay back over the next 20 years, however. More urgently, there is the right to live a life of dignity and freedom from poverty, a right now denied to one in ten children in direct contravention of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

If we are to recapture the founding principles of the European Union, as this excellent motion proposes, we need a full human rights analysis of the financial crisis in Ireland. Such an analysis should be central to any European debt conference, as has been said by those in front-line services dealing with the 700,000 people in poverty, 250,000 of who are children. This is all because of what the banks and the developers have done to this country and we did not even attempt to seek a write-down of our debt.

I call Deputy Clare Daly who is sharing time with Deputy Peter Mathews. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The depths to which the Government is prepared to sink in terms of its boot-licking and doffing of the cap is unparalleled. It is bad enough that the Government would not agree to support a debt conference but it really beats all that it would boycott the ad hoc committee on sovereign debt restructuring processes agreed by the United Nations General Assembly last September. Ireland was one of only 11 countries which voted against it. Normally, the Government is very happy to hide behind the figleaf of the United Nations in facilitating US military use of Shannon airport and other vehicles. This time around what was proposed was a debt restructuring committee which would look at negotiating fair and transparent procedures for the cancellation and restructuring of the debts of countries in crisis like Ireland, Greece and so on. How could anybody possibly vote on not participating in such a process? It is like voting against apple pie.

Deputy Catherine Murphy’s motion poses the stark question to the Government, and the Labour Party in particular, as to which side is it on. By its refusal to go along with this motion, the Government clearly has gone against the best wishes of the majority of Irish citizens. When they agreed to sign up to the European project, it was one of solidarity with our neighbours across boundaries and common interests. It was not for a future that shackled us with debts well into the future and to be subservient to bankers, bondholders and the like.

Many in society are asking what is wrong with the Government. What is really wrong with the Government? There is no other answer than participating in this process and standing shoulder to shoulder with the people of Greece, Spain and our neighbours across boundaries.

I thank Deputy Catherine Murphy for bringing forward this motion and I salute her for it. I congratulate the Greek finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis, and his Prime Minister, Alexis Tsipras. These are fine people. I met with Alexis Tsipras when he was in Dublin earlier in the summer.

Back in January 2012, before I was expelled from the Minister of State’s party, I visited Berlin with the finance committee under the then leadership of Deputy Alex White and the vice-chairman, Deputy Liam Twomey. Deputies Pearse Doherty, Richard Boyd Barrett and Michael McGrath also attended. At the time, as Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett will remember, I said there should be a London debt agreement for our country. How dare the European establishment push us around. They gave us €140 billion to pay off bondholders such as Pimco which should never have been repaid. Half of that debt by any measure was odious and should have been written off. Of course, there should be a debt conference.

Alexis Tsipras was here supporting us earlier in the summer. We should be over in Greece supporting him. This is a European solution. There are 20 million people without work in Europe, five times the population of this country. It is wrong there is no process of examining the situation and restructuring by mutualisation of between €2 trillion to €3 trillion of debt. Denis Staunton, deputy editor of The Irish Times, had an article two weeks ago before the Greek election on this. Ashoka Mody, Ajai Chopra, Carmen Reinhart and Joseph Stiglitz, all independent and authoritative economists, have said we have been essentially led by a gutless Government. They are correct. We owe it to the people. It is wrong people are suffering, that people are taking their lives, that families are breaking up and that children witness all this. Psychosis appearance in this society is at an all-time high. Psychosis appearance means a detachment from reality. I think the Taoiseach is suffering from it at the moment.

I thank Deputy Catherine Murphy for tabling this motion. Unlike some of the assertions made, the Government is certainly not embarrassed by it. It is timely, right and proper that the Dáil is debating this issue. It has been a useful debate over the past two evenings and I thank Members on all sides for their contributions on this important topic.

At the beginning of the debate last night, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, called for a reasonable discussion of this issue. Many issues have been raised over these two evenings and, in so doing, several misconceptions have been addressed. It is positive we are all united on one theme, however, that is the need to broaden and deepen the economic recovery taking place across the country, to ensure job creation and a decent standard of living for all citizens.

The incorrect perception that Ireland's debt is mainly due to banking debt must be corrected. The bulk of our debt relates to the mismatch between revenue and expenditure as a result of inappropriate policies adopted during the 2000s. Only one fifth of our debt relates to banking support.

Private household debt and business debt are equal to the national debt.

There is also a misconception around the cost of servicing the national debt. The factual position is that of the €7.5 billion in interest payments we face in 2015, when account is taken for the various asset sales and circular flows of income, approximately 10% is banking related. There is a misconception that if it were not for the interest costs, banking related or otherwise, we would have billions of euro in additional capacity to spend on day-to-day expenditure. Again, this is not the factual position. Looking to the future, interest costs are not included in the calculation of the expenditure benchmark and will have no impact on the available fiscal space. This is an important issue to bear in mind in an honest debate.

It must be remembered the State now holds significant assets which can be sold over time, generating the maximum return for the taxpayers’ investment. Retrospective recapitalisation by the ESM, European Stability Mechanism, remains a possible option, no matter how many times Members opposite wish to say to the contrary. However, it is no longer the only option open to us to recover the money provided to recapitalise our banks. Investors are now willing to support Irish banks again and the market value of our investments has improved accordingly. With respect to the State's shareholdings or ownership in the banks, Government policy remains unchanged. There is no desire to hold these investments in the banks over the long term. Subject to market conditions therefore, the Government will exit in a manner that maximises value for the taxpayer.

We will, of course, continue to engage at an international level to explore ways in which our debt burden can be reduced further. There are mechanisms at ECOFIN, the Eurogroup and the European Council to do so. Many Deputies compared Ireland's debt position to Greece’s. Ireland's debt position is not the same as Greece's.

As a small, open, trading economy we have managed to emerge from the economic and fiscal crisis and the country is now growing and, most important, jobs are being created. We have successfully exited the EU-IMF programme, and, as the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan recalled, in the most recent budget the Government was in a position, for the first time, to invest in public services and reduce the tax burden on individuals. Some people in the Opposition have done a very good job of making economic statistics abstract when they are not. We saw in yesterday's Exchequer figures that, although we did not increase VAT in the budget, the VAT take is dramatically up. We reduced income tax and the income tax take is up, excise is up and stamp duty is up. This is not magic money; these are real Irish families----

Why has poverty increased?

These are real Irish families - people getting jobs, getting back to work and spending more money. We have seen an increase in start-ups and have seen our service and manufacturing industries increase. It is not made up although the Opposition has done a very good political job of trying to detach economics from society. Economic benefits and the economic growth we are now seeing represent real people and real families getting back on their feet as this country's economy recovers.

We are also in a very different position when it comes to debt. Ireland's debt levels are sustainable and we can now borrow at record low interest rates.

This is all talk to us.

Deputy Boyd Barrett should not take my word for it. Just the day before yesterday, the National Treasury Management Agency raised €4 billion through a 30-year bond at a yield of just over 2%. We are not borrowing that money for fun or for the craic but to fund public services. The fact that people are willing to lend to this country again, that we are no longer locked out of the markets, means we can now afford to plan our public services as we go forward.

We have the highest child poverty levels in Europe.

The issue of the UN resolution came up and I think is important to address it. Ireland recognises the importance of an appropriate international agreement regarding sovereign debt restructuring due to its significant economic, social and financial implications. In common with other European member states, Ireland was unable to support the recent UN resolution on a multilateral legal framework for sovereign debt restructuring. This position was based on shared concerns regarding the substance of the resolution and the process followed in proposing it. However, together with many other UN member states, Ireland is actively engaged in ongoing processes that address and seek to identify solutions to the issue of sovereign debt restructuring. In this House, we can all agree on the need for growth, more job creation, and on working together to continue to do what the Government has done - restructure our debt and lessen the burden on the Irish taxpayer. We have a plan to recoup money for the Irish taxpayer from the banks.

We are worse off than we ever were.

I would like to hear the Deputy's plan. When he gets beyond the rhetoric, he must have a plan.

It is not all banking debt, but if someone running a business owes X amount because of the way the business has been run, and then all of a sudden he decides to borrow an extra €64 billion to give to useless failed banks, it has a massive impact on his business. It caused the Government to implement serious austerity measures which undercut public services. The Minister of State talks about how we can now borrow at 2% and that is great. It is good that we can borrow money on the bond market at less than 2% but it is a pity we cannot build the bypass in New Ross at 2%, because we are going to pay about 15% on that through public private partnership, PPP. The EU rules do not allow us to borrow on the books for infrastructure. That is crazy.

That is a fair point.

It does not make any sense. Schools are being built on a PPP system now and we are not going to get away with less than 15% plus about another 5% on maintenance. We are working to a system whereby we are being driven into the hands of the private sector, which will fleece us because that is what happens. If we could borrow the money to invest in infrastructure and create indigenous jobs at less than 2%, that would be brilliant, but that is not what we are able to do. We are not allowed to do that. It just does not make sense.

The Minister for Finance turned his nose up at the European debt resolution conference and says that our debt is in a very good position now, that it is affordable and repayable. It is affordable and repayable if one agrees that the banking bailout was just. Many people do not think so - most of the public does not. It is not Marxist ideology to suggest that there was a massive transfer of wealth from the public to the financial institutions. The people do not see that as being very fair. Deputy Harris's point that we owe a lot of money anyway and that we are overspending is separate, because this is the straw that broke the camel's back. This is why we have made great inroads into increasing inequality in Ireland. It is one of the reasons we have the fastest-growing child poverty levels in Europe at the moment.

We have huge problems that Deputy Harris is ignoring. It is not just all about growth. The day is coming when we will challenge the philosophy of endless growth because it is unsustainable.

The Irish public has suffered in a similar manner to the other so-called "PIGS" countries. They are burdened with a debt of over €200 billion. In Ireland's case, the IMF calculated that every €100 of austerity would cost the economy €50 in lost growth and unemployment. This was the fiscal situation, and through the imposition of austerity on our defenceless public, the IMF evaluation seems to have been way off target. In real terms, the economy has been robbed of between €90 and €150 for every €100 cut in the budgets. Every euro taken out of the economy puts us further into the doldrums.

A range of draconian spending cuts was devised in tandem with some of the most regressive taxation policies in Europe. Ireland's figures reveal that the wealthiest in society fared best, with their incomes increasing by 8%, while the incomes of the most vulnerable have dropped by over 20%. The €32 billion plus taken out of the Irish economy by austerity measures over the past six years has produced visible carnage. The Government is not deviating from the course of the predetermined cuts and tax increases and is insisting it is locked into an agreed programme with no room for manoeuvre. This is a defeatist attitude, to put it mildly.

Similarly to Greece, we have taken the hard, blunt measures and the Irish public does not want to see these Cromwellian policies foisted on this or future generations. The Greek situation offers us hope and potential for a renegotiation of our debt. This can be strengthened by a decisive call for a European debt conference.

Over €200 billion of debt has to be serviced by 20% of all taxes collected and that is only the debt interest repayments. This is having a drastic effect on all our services - health, housing, welfare supports, down along to the job creation supports, supports for disability and childcare, etc. We further ignore and deny our debt crisis to the detriment of the economy and all the aforementioned services. That is all the more reason to support the Greek call for a debt resolution conference which would provide massive economic stimulus and a once-off opportunity for social solidarity with the citizens of Greece, Spain and Portugal.

I commend Deputy Catherine Murphy on the comprehensive research and work she put in to this very effective motion and proposal.

Debt is a millstone around the necks of the Irish people and of all low and middle-income families across Europe. I support the call for a new European debt conference. There is precedent for that. In 1952-53, Germany had 50% of its debt written off with a moratorium on repayment and a lengthy repayment period of 50 years or more. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan has told us that the Irish debt is affordable and repayable. Of course it is, but it is only affordable and repayable if we are prepared to starve our children and have them live on the streets in cardboard boxes in Dublin and other towns and cities across the country. Of course, that is an absolutely outrageous suggestion. The Minister of State, Deputy Harris, has told us we talk about abstract statistics. I can tell the Minister of State that the 350,000 people who are unemployed are not abstract statistics. They want a debt writedown. The 90,000 people on local authority housing lists want one, as do the 40,000 families who are facing repossession of their family homes.

The 30% of the population experiencing deprivation and the children living in poverty want a debt write-down. Certainly, they do not believe the debt we are repaying is either affordable or repayable.

Unfortunately, that is only half of the story. This assessment is made on the basis of the country paying interest on the debt of €7.5 billion per year. What will happen after the next general election is something the Government is not telling the people about. That is when the fiscal treaty will kick in and we will have to pay to meet the structural deficit. How much more will that take out of the economy? I figure it will be anything up to €11 billion for several years. What will happen when the second part of the fiscal treaty kicks in? We will be obliged to get the debt down to 60% of GDP from its current level, anything from 102% to 120%, depending on to whom one is talking. That will give us austerity for a further 20 years or more. Austerity is not something abstract; it means human misery and chaos for low and middle-income families throughout the country and the eurozone.

It is unbelievable the Government will not take the opportunity to look for a debt conference and a write-down of debt that could ensure jobs would be created, houses built and trolleys taken from the corridors of accident and emergency departments, It could also ensure thousands of families would not lose their homes and children would not live in poverty. It is unbelievable the Government does not support the concept of seeking a debt write-down for the people in question who are already paying through the nose for a recession they did not create. Even before Syriza came to power in Greece, because that country had stood up to the European Union it had received a better debt deal than Ireland. Ireland should get together with Greece and the other programme countries and demand a new European debt conference for the benefit and betterment of the people.

I thank all those who contributed to the debate. In particular, I thank my colleagues in the Technical Group. We are often described as a disparate group, but this was one motion we all found easy to support.

The response of the Government in tabling the amendment was disappointing. The most breathtaking statement in the amendment is the line to the effect that the debt is sustainable and that it is possible to repay it. It is one thing to service a debt on which there is a productive return but most of what we are repaying is not typical national debt. Part of it relates to the banking collapse, while a major share of it relates to the crash in tax revenues from the construction sector, which had follow-on consequences in other sectors. It would be entirely different if we were paying back a debt incurred in building new water infrastructure, a public transport system to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, the cost of which is €8 billion per year, or undertaking a major house building programme to deliver security of tenure and affordable accommodation. However, there is no productive aspect to most of our debt.

Reference was made to the National Pensions Reserve Fund, although we had not included it in the motion. The fund was plundered, but the pensions time-bomb is still with us. With an ageing and a depleted population because of emigration, the problem is going to get worse.

In an article yesterday Fintan O'Toole referred to the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan's explanation of why Ireland was not supporting Greek calls for the holding of a European debt resolution conference. The Minister said of Ireland's €214 billion debt: "Our debt is in a very good position now; it's affordable and it's repayable." O'Toole goes on to state:

There could hardly be a clearer message to our gallant allies in Europe. Keep your hands in your pockets. You'd only be insulting us if you offered us a dig-out.

Many of us can identify with this.

I seriously question the notion that our debt is on a downward trajectory. The world debt clock shows that we are paying in the region of €339 per second in interest. Therefore, in the five minutes I have to speak tonight we will have added €100,000 in interest to our debt. We are making repayments €7.5 billion to service the national debt, which is close to the entire education budget.

The Taoiseach said the water charges protests were about more than water. They are; they are about the cumulative effects of the big squeeze on incomes for a major proportion of citizens. Many believe they are worse off now than when the crisis began. People have put it to us that they have no reserves left and that, whereas they may have had a little money at the beginning, there have no reserves now. Some tell us that their incomes and outgoings are so finely tuned that something like Christmas, the car breaking down or the washing machine needing repairs can throw them into crisis. That shows how marginal the balance is. The Minister said the debt was sustainable and repayable in the names of the people struggling so badly, not only in the name of the Government.

The dynamic has shifted in Europe. What it was not possible to talk or think about six months ago is altogether possible now. It is not only in Greece where this debate should be held. Let us consider the debt problem throughout Europe. Italy has a 133% debt-to-GDP ratio; France, 93%; and Spain, 96%. Even Germany has a 75% ratio. Joschka Fischer, a former Vice Chancellor of Germany, writing in The Guardian over the weekend stated:

Nothing but growth will decide the future of the euro. Even Germany, the EU's biggest economy, faces an enormous need for infrastructure investment.

He went on to write: "The eurozone's cohesion and the success of its necessary structural reforms, and thus its very survival, now depend on whether it can overcome its growth deficit." He also stated:

Warnings of a severe political backlash went unheeded. Shadowed by Germany's deep-seated inflation taboo, Chancellor Angela Merkel's government stubbornly insisted that the pain of austerity was essential to economic recovery; the EU had little choice but to go along. Now, with Greece's voters having driven out their country's exhausted and corrupt elite in favour of a party that has vowed to end austerity, the backlash has arrived.

We had better start to pay attention to it. The debate may well be over for tonight in this Chamber, but it is only beginning throughout Europe.

Amendment put:
The Dáil divided: Tá, 72; Níl, 42.

  • Barry, Tom.
  • Breen, Pat.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burton, Joan.
  • Butler, Ray.
  • Buttimer, Jerry.
  • Byrne, Catherine.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Joe.
  • Collins, Áine.
  • Conaghan, Michael.
  • Conlan, Seán.
  • Connaughton, Paul J.
  • Conway, Ciara.
  • Coonan, Noel.
  • Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Coveney, Simon.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Daly, Jim.
  • Deasy, John.
  • Deering, Pat.
  • Dowds, Robert.
  • Doyle, Andrew.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • English, Damien.
  • Feighan, Frank.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harrington, Noel.
  • Harris, Simon.
  • Heydon, Martin.
  • Humphreys, Heather.
  • Kehoe, Paul.
  • Kelly, Alan.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Kyne, Seán.
  • Lawlor, Anthony.
  • Lynch, Ciarán.
  • Lynch, Kathleen.
  • Lyons, John.
  • McCarthy, Michael.
  • McEntee, Helen.
  • McFadden, Gabrielle.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McLoughlin, Tony.
  • McNamara, Michael.
  • Maloney, Eamonn.
  • Mitchell, Olivia.
  • Mitchell O'Connor, Mary.
  • Mulherin, Michelle.
  • Neville, Dan.
  • Nolan, Derek.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
  • O'Donnell, Kieran.
  • O'Donovan, Patrick.
  • O'Dowd, Fergus.
  • O'Mahony, John.
  • O'Reilly, Joe.
  • O'Sullivan, Jan.
  • Phelan, Ann.
  • Phelan, John Paul.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Sherlock, Sean.
  • Spring, Arthur.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Stanton, David.
  • Tuffy, Joanna.
  • White, Alex.

Níl

  • Adams, Gerry.
  • Boyd Barrett, Richard.
  • Broughan, Thomas P.
  • Calleary, Dara.
  • Collins, Joan.
  • Collins, Niall.
  • Colreavy, Michael.
  • Cowen, Barry.
  • Crowe, Seán.
  • Daly, Clare.
  • Doherty, Pearse.
  • Dooley, Timmy.
  • Ellis, Dessie.
  • Ferris, Martin.
  • Fitzmaurice, Michael.
  • Fleming, Tom.
  • Halligan, John.
  • Healy, Seamus.
  • Keaveney, Colm.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • Kirk, Seamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
  • McConalogue, Charlie.
  • McDonald, Mary Lou.
  • McGrath, Finian.
  • McGrath, Mattie.
  • McGrath, Michael.
  • McGuinness, John.
  • McLellan, Sandra.
  • Mathews, Peter.
  • Murphy, Catherine.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
  • O'Brien, Jonathan.
  • O'Sullivan, Maureen.
  • Pringle, Thomas.
  • Ross, Shane.
  • Stanley, Brian.
  • Wallace, Mick.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Joe Carey and Emmet Stagg; Níl, Deputies Catherine Murphy and John Halligan.
Amendment declared carried.
Amendment put:
The Dáil divided: Tá, 71; Níl, 42.

  • Barry, Tom.
  • Breen, Pat.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burton, Joan.
  • Butler, Ray.
  • Buttimer, Jerry.
  • Byrne, Catherine.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Joe.
  • Conaghan, Michael.
  • Conlan, Seán.
  • Connaughton, Paul J.
  • Conway, Ciara.
  • Coonan, Noel.
  • Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Coveney, Simon.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Daly, Jim.
  • Deasy, John.
  • Deering, Pat.
  • Dowds, Robert.
  • Doyle, Andrew.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • English, Damien.
  • Feighan, Frank.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harrington, Noel.
  • Harris, Simon.
  • Heydon, Martin.
  • Humphreys, Heather.
  • Keating, Derek.
  • Kelly, Alan.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Kyne, Seán.
  • Lawlor, Anthony.
  • Lynch, Ciarán.
  • Lynch, Kathleen.
  • Lyons, John.
  • McCarthy, Michael.
  • McEntee, Helen.
  • McFadden, Gabrielle.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McLoughlin, Tony.
  • McNamara, Michael.
  • Maloney, Eamonn.
  • Mitchell, Olivia.
  • Mitchell O'Connor, Mary.
  • Mulherin, Michelle.
  • Neville, Dan.
  • Nolan, Derek.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
  • O'Donnell, Kieran.
  • O'Donovan, Patrick.
  • O'Dowd, Fergus.
  • O'Mahony, John.
  • O'Reilly, Joe.
  • O'Sullivan, Jan.
  • Phelan, Ann.
  • Phelan, John Paul.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Sherlock, Sean.
  • Spring, Arthur.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Stanton, David.
  • Tuffy, Joanna.
  • White, Alex.

Níl

  • Adams, Gerry.
  • Boyd Barrett, Richard.
  • Broughan, Thomas P.
  • Calleary, Dara.
  • Collins, Joan.
  • Collins, Niall.
  • Colreavy, Michael.
  • Cowen, Barry.
  • Crowe, Seán.
  • Daly, Clare.
  • Doherty, Pearse.
  • Dooley, Timmy.
  • Ellis, Dessie.
  • Ferris, Martin.
  • Fitzmaurice, Michael.
  • Fleming, Tom.
  • Halligan, John.
  • Healy, Seamus.
  • Keaveney, Colm.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • Kirk, Seamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P..
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
  • McConalogue, Charlie.
  • McDonald, Mary Lou.
  • McGrath, Finian.
  • McGrath, Mattie.
  • McGrath, Michael.
  • McGuinness, John.
  • McLellan, Sandra.
  • Mathews, Peter.
  • Murphy, Catherine.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
  • O'Brien, Jonathan.
  • O'Sullivan, Maureen.
  • Pringle, Thomas.
  • Ross, Shane.
  • Stanley, Brian.
  • Wallace, Mick.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Joe Carey and Emmet Stagg; Níl, Deputies Catherine Murphy and John Halligan.
Amendment declared carried.
The Dáil adjourned at 9.40 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 5 February 2015.
Barr
Roinn