Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 3 Mar 2015

Vol. 870 No. 1

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

I wish to address the issue of mortgage arrears, particularly family homes in danger of imminent repossession and legal actions pertaining to same. The scale of the problem is still enormous. Over 118,000 family homes are in arrears and about 37,400 family homes have been in arrears for more than two years. The latter group of family homes is in imminent danger of repossession because we have witnessed since the beginning of 2015 a wave of repossession applications and court actions across the country. Every Deputy could relate their own court system in their area. In Cork alone this week another 100 cases, between yesterday and tomorrow, are listed. Some 208 cases are listed for Limerick on Friday alone. That is just to name two examples. Up to 8,000 cases were in the courts last year, 2014. It seems that the banks have become emboldened by the property price increases. The value of the houses is going up, so they can now get back all of their exposure. They are prioritising that issue over sustainable solutions for families. We have all met families in which both parents are working, some in State jobs, yet which are being pursued in terms of the house being repossessed, with no real engagement on the part of the banks regarding sustainable options, through split mortgages, debt for equity swaps or other solutions.

My colleague, Deputy Michael McGrath, has put forward the Family Home Mortgage Settlement Arrangement Bill to be debated in Private Members' time tonight and tomorrow night.

It would utilise the existing personal insolvency structure and personal insolvency practitioners to deal with the issue in a sustainable way. Last month, the Taoiseach stated he was not happy at the way in which the banks were ignoring personal insolvency practitioners in mortgage cases. I put it to him that, all along, the Government's policy has been to give the banks a veto to dictate the pace, shape and nature of arrangements. It is time to call a halt to that policy as it has not worked. The personal insolvency framework has been woefully underutilised in only 199 cases. Of these, we do not know how many were related to family mortgages, yet 118,000 families are in arrears. We are being constructive in utilising the existing structures with a view to diluting the banks' veto and ensuring personal insolvency practitioners can bring sustainable solutions to the court, which could make orders to give them a chance to work. It is time to end the banks' veto. The Government's policies have not worked.

The Taoiseach

The first thing is that there is certainly no harm in talking about these issues.

Deputy Finian McGrath

We have been talking about them for four years.

The Taoiseach

What has been put forward by Deputy Micheál Martin's party is not a solution because it would refer all of these cases to a court of law. The fact of the matter is that the solution about which Fianna Fáil is talking in its Bill would not actually deal with the 37,000 cases in which there has been no engagement with the banks at all. In the vast majority there has not been any engagement. Fianna Fáil's intention is to impose a solution from its perspective that actually would be unconstitutional. It wants all of these cases sent to court-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

How could it be unconstitutional? Every excuse is being made.

The Taoiseach

-----and a decision to be made by the Circuit Court.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Insolvency judges. The Taoiseach is misleading the House.

The Taoiseach

If Deputy Micheál Martin makes an assumption that there will be a free for all in terms of write-downs-----

Deputy Michael McGrath

That is nonsense.

The Taoiseach

-----it is tantamount to saying to people they should not have to make their repayments at all.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Nonsense.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Who said "free for all"?

The Taoiseach

I assume that is not what Deputy Micheál Martin is on about. The reason the Government has had to restructure the banks and the Government had to set up the personal insolvency agency was the carry on in previous years. We went through that issue on a number of occasions. It is true to say headway and progress are being made. Since the personal insolvency agency has been set up, it is disappointing I suppose that not as many cases have gone through as one might have expected, but it is also encouraging to see that since this happened, the banks are engaging to a far greater extent.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Says who?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

They pretend to.

The Taoiseach

The number of cases in arrears for in excess of 90 days has fallen by over 17,500 accounts when compared with the figure for 2014. In each of these cases it means that a borrower and a lender were able to sit down with the personal insolvency agency and whatever other practitioners were operating to work out a solution that would give them a sense of security and certainty in their situation. In August 2013 there were 2,500 split mortgages put in place. There are now 20,500.

Deputy Peter Mathews

That is a joke.

The Taoiseach

That shows the extent of the solutions reached when there is engagement between the borrower and whoever is the lender. During the same period, for Deputy Micheál Martin's information, the number of permanent restructures for family homes by the six main banks increased from 41,000 to 91,000. That is 50,000 family homes in respect of which agreement was reached on a sustainable solution for the future to give them a degree of certainty, but I admit we are not seeing the same progress being made in the most difficult cases - those in arrears for more than two years. The Bill being put forward by Deputy Michael McGrath does not deal with these people. I admit, of course, that it is right and proper to talk about these issues-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Who gave the banks a veto?

The Taoiseach

-----but the Minister for Justice and Equality is in the process of finalising an engagement following a meeting we had with the personnel involved which she will bring forward shortly. The review of insolvency legislation covers bankruptcy where the banks have no veto, as well as insolvency. It has included discussions and engagement with the official assignee, the PIPs, FLAC, MABS and the Irish Mortgage Holders Organisation. The Minister is going to bring it forward very shortly-----

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Another review.

The Taoiseach

-----because we need to be in a situation where, at the end of the day, only the very smallest number of cases - I want to see no house lost - cannot have solutions worked out for them.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Those in mortgage arrears should not have to go bankrupt. We do not want to go there, but that is what the Taoiseach is suggesting.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Correct.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach has a wonderful use of language. He stated, "it is disappointing I suppose..."

Deputy Mattie McGrath

"Is mise an múinteoir."

Deputy Micheál Martin

I remember when the personal insolvency Bill was produced. The then Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter, and the Taoiseach claimed that it was historic and would do wonderful things. There have been 199 settlements. Of these, we do not know how many relate to family mortgages. There are more than 118,000 people in arrears. The Taoiseach says there is no harm in talking about the issue. In the name of God, of course, there is not. What kind of ridiculous assertion is that? The issue is very serious and I invite the Taoiseach to visit some of the courts to see the length of the lists.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Deputy forgets the state Fianna Fáil left the country.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Last week a couple approached me. They were both working in State jobs, with the potential for reasonable longevity.

Deputy Derek Keating

Did the Deputy tell them about how Fianna Fáil had let them down?

Deputy Micheál Martin

I admit they were at the lower end of the income scale-----

An Ceann Comhairle

A question, please.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----but they were at the end of their tether because of their engagement with the bank, not the other way around. I hated the Taoiseach's assertion last week and the implication - I hope he is not doing it again today - that somehow it was all the fault of the person who held the mortgage.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

He is.

Deputy Arthur Spring

That is ridiculous. It is Fianna Fáil's fault.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Micheál Martin

I hear time and again that people with mortgages are anxious to have sustainable solutions, but there is no engagement from the other side. The fundamental problem is that, as many people know, the banks hold all of the cards. They have a veto.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The full deck, including the joker.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is the fundamental problem and why, in some instances, they may not be engaging.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, but will the Deputy put his question?

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is time to end the veto in a reasonable and balanced way. We are conscious of issues that flow from this, but the Bill that will be debated this evening is balanced. The Taoiseach should show good grace. The former Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter - I read his speeches on Second and Committee Stages before I came to Leinster House today - said the Government would not be slow in refining the legislation if the banks proved to be lacking in terms of constructive engagement and so on. It is time to act on the commitments given when the original legislation was debated in the House. The Government should give our legislation a fair hearing, take it on board on Second Stage and allow it to be worked through on Committee Stage if Dáil reform is to mean anything and the Government has a genuine commitment to engaging on issues.

An Ceann Comhairle

We have gone way over time.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am not talking about there being no harm in talking about this matter. I want real engagement on the substance of the points raised in the legislation that will be before the House this evening if this Parliament is to mean anything and be relevant to the hundreds of cases going through courts across the country weekly.

The Taoiseach

Of course, the Deputy does.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

But the Taoiseach does not.

The Taoiseach

The reason we have had to do all of this is the mess Fianna Fáil left behind.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Change the record.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Loss of memory.

Deputy Derek Keating

The truth hurts.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Government keeps going back to it. The electorate will love it for it.

The Taoiseach

Fianna Fáil's solution, in fairness to it, is to put forward a proposition that is unconstitutional.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Explain that statement.

The Taoiseach

Fianna Fáil wants all of these cases to be transferred into the Circuit Court to deal with the issue of debt. That is what it wants to do.

Deputy Micheál Martin

We want to find solutions.

The Taoiseach

What I am saying to the Deputy is that Fianna Fáil's Private Members' Bill does not deal with the most difficult cases in which there has been no engagement between banks and borrowers. That is where the solution needs to be found.

Deputy Peter Mathews

The banks refuse to talk; that is why.

The Taoiseach

I have pointed to the 50,000 cases that have been restructured to the satisfaction of both the borrower and the lender. This gives certainty and clarity in the time ahead.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

One-way traffic.

The Taoiseach

I say to Deputy Micheál Martin also that in 2014 there were 448 bankruptcy adjudications, of which 95% were sought by the debtors. Nobody wants to see a family home being lost, which is why it is important that the banks which know who the 37,000 are should inform them of the availability of the personal insolvency agency. The former Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter, worked exceptionally hard to put it in place. The people involved need that solution.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is not being utilised.

The Taoiseach

Let us hope it will be used more in the time ahead.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, but we are over time.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach stated he was not happy. He brought them in for a chat, the time for which has come to an end.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will Deputies, please, recognise the Chair?

The Taoiseach

The Minister is completing the review. She will bring it here after having all of the discussions.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are four minutes over time.

The Taoiseach

It will be constitutional, unlike what Fianna Fáil is proposing.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is unfair to others, including the Technical Group which comes last, when Deputies go over the time consistently. I am told that it is cut off on television, which is unfair to the Technical Group, in particular, Deputy Gerry Adams and others who are trying to stick to their time limits. Will Deputies, please, stick to their time limits? They are well known at this stage after four years.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Last week, following threats to republican families in south Armagh who have been forthright in their support for the PSNI and their opposition to criminality, a booby trap bomb was left close to the home of a local Sinn Féin leader, Frank McCabe. Francis McCabe Jnr, whose only offence is that he is from a republican family, and who is a good, decent, hard working man and a good neighbour, was seriously injured. As the Taoiseach will be aware, issues in the North, especially in the Border area, are generally seized upon by some politicians here to attack Sinn Féin. In this instance, bhí siad go han-chiúin but this was a serious attack and an attempt to kill and it was an attack on the peace process. As far as I can gather, the Government has been silent. Those involved are a small number of criminals who are responsible over the years for the killing of volunteer, Keith Rogers, the beating to death of Paul Quinn, the murder of Garda Adrian Donohoe and the wounding of Michael Bellew recently. They have also threatened the lives of Conor Murphy MP and another republican family, the Carraghers.

Will the Taoiseach condemn the attempt to murder Francis McCabe Jnr? Will he ensure adequate resources are given to An Garda Síochána to investigate properly the activities of these criminals? Will he ensure that there is full co-operation with the PSNI and that the PSNI does what it is paid to do? Will he use this occasion to send a clear message of support and solidarity from this Government to the people of north Louth and south Armagh that it stands with them in their opposition to criminality and in support of their right to a policing service that protects them and their neighbours?

The Taoiseach

I condemn unreservedly the attempt to murder Francis McCabe. I condemned those who murdered Paul Quinn and Garda Adrian Donohoe unreservedly. I pledge that the Government will see to it that resources are made available to the Garda and that it continues to have full co-operation, as it does, with the PSNI in the pursuit of criminal activities of any description but most particularly in pursuit of those involved in the most serious crime, which is the murder or attempted murder of any individual. Obviously, the Deputy may have some more information about the particular individuals involved and I am sure he will have given that to both the Garda and the PSNI. The short answer to his question is that the Government is concerned about this, condemns it unreservedly and will continue to liaise with the Garda Commissioner in managing co-operation between the Garda and the PSNI. The resources required to deal with these individuals and this serious criminality will be made available to them.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Go raibh míle agat. I thank the Taoiseach for his reply but the silence from the Government on this issue was noted in south Armagh. I was there on Sunday at the commemoration for the two Brendans. It turned into a huge gathering in defence of neighbours and against these criminal attacks. The ongoing effort to demonise north Louth and south Armagh and the good people there needs to stop. I know that some of those who are engaged in these attacks have masqueraded as republicans but they are not republicans. There is a strong suspicion that some are agents working------

Deputy Timmy Dooley

That is the legacy the Deputy has left behind.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Could the Ceann Comhairle ask the Deputy to stop detracting from what is a serious issue? This is nonsense from Fianna Fáil on these issues.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

It is about time Deputy Adams addressed them.

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy please stay quiet?

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Deputy should not talk to me about legacy issues.

There is a strong suspicion that some of these are agents working to a different agenda from the rest of us and they are opposed to Sinn Féin because the party stands against their activities. The vast majority of people in south Armagh support Sinn Féin but even more people support the peace process. I was there last Sunday. Children and elderly people, including one lady in her 90s, are representative of that rural republican heartland and they showed they had no support for these activities and support those who stand with the PSNI.

I have appealed time out of number, as I did again on Sunday, to anyone with any information on the killings of Paul Quinn, Garda Donohoe and Keith Rogers or the attacks on Michael Bellew and Francis McCabe Jnr to give it to the PSNI or An Garda Síochána or to give it to me and I will give it to them. We need action and we need to ensure that if An Garda Síochána requires more resources to tackle this problem, they will be made available to it. Will the Taoiseach join my call for greater co-operation between the PSNI and An Garda Síochána to deal with these issues?

The Taoiseach

Let me assure the Deputy that the Government does not demonise anybody.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Only the poor.

The Taoiseach

I again unreservedly condemn any attempts from any criminal element to inflict damage on people or to make serious attempts to murder somebody or have somebody murdered. That is an attack on the State, it is an attack on democracy and it is an attack on humanity. There is the very highest level of co-operation between the PSNI and the Garda. I had a briefing some time ago with the Minister for Justice and Equality and the Tánaiste from the Garda Commissioner in respect of a number of these matters. Gardaí have done exhaustive work with the PSNI in respect of these terrible atrocities. Members will recall the particular savagery of the murders of Paul Quinn, Adrian Donohoe, Keith Rogers and the others mentioned by the Deputy. I deplore these attempts to murder somebody by these particular individuals.

In so far as the function of the Garda is concerned, that is entirely a matter for the Commissioner working with the PSNI and they have their own close relationship. I assume the level of co-operation at the highest level between the PSNI and the Garda is the way it should be and the resources needed to follow through exhaustively on these crimes and, hopefully, to bring these people before the courts is at its highest level.

I agree with the Deputy on this matter.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

The issue I raise is both sensitive and disturbing. Young people have been denied many of their abilities and talents because of the way in which they were abused as children and the scars and the horrors of this are still being felt by them today. They were abused, sexually assaulted and raped by men who were their swimming coaches. These men robbed the young people of their dignity, sense of self, self-esteem and confidence and they deprived them of realising their potential as great swimming champions for their country. Recovery will begin when they can tell their stories, when they are believed, when they have received appropriate counselling for as long as is necessary but most particularly, when the perpetrators are brought to justice. This has happened in a number of cases, the most recent in 2010 when a man was sentenced for sex offences committed between 1981 and the mid-1990s.

However, one notorious abuser has never been brought to justice. His name is known but I will not say it because I do not want to prejudice any case against him. His victims and their loved ones suffer horrifically still. One of them died tragically last Christmas. The man in question fled Ireland and lived in a number of other countries before being facilitated and helped into the US. It is known that he worked with young people in those other countries. I ask in the name of those who were abused, one of whom I knew personally and I have met others, and in the name of those who have supported and believed these young people throughout the years that the Taoiseach in his compassion and humanity has a conversation with the Minister for Justice and Equality with a view to reopening this case and to extraditing this man back to Ireland because that would encourage those who were unable to come forward years ago to tell their story. They might today because we know more about child abuse and paedophilia. This would also affirm and support those who told their stories without this man being brought to justice.

This is urgent because an investigative journalist in the US with the assistance of prominent American politicians is seeking information under freedom of information legislation there on how this man was facilitated to get into the country. This could leave the State and the Government vulnerable when this information comes to light.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy would not raise this matter unless it was serious and sensitive. I do not know the details of the case she speaks of but I would be happy to speak to her and I will ask the Minister for Justice and Equality for a report on this matter.

If what the Deputy says is true, this particularly appalling crime was repeated many times. Obviously, there are legal connections between Ireland and many countries in the pursuit of people whom it is alleged have committed crimes of particular seriousness. I will advise the Deputy discreetly following her raising it in the House.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

I thank the Taoiseach for his response which will be very encouraging for those who have suffered during the years. One of the staunchest supporters has pointed out that this country was able to extradite a celebrity chef to face charges related to theft of paintings, but it has not managed to extradite this man. The Taoiseach was one of many in the House who was very sympathetic and showed such empathy to Maíria Cahill. We were horrified that sex abusers in the North could move freely to another jurisdiction. That has also happened in the case of the man to whom I refer. A litany of mistakes were made in the way this issue was dealt with in the past and in some of the excuses made. I welcome the opportunity to discuss the issue further with the Taoiseach. I know somebody who was abused by this man and I have met some of the others. It is a horror story. Their lives have been marked by suicide attempts, the breakdown of relationships and marriages, self-harm and eating disorders. Some of them committed suicide. The people concerned are still paying the price because this individual was not brought to justice. I hope the day will come when they will see justice.

The Taoiseach

Many adults and teenagers had the courage to speak out where these appalling crimes happened. They have named the perpetrators. Clearly, there are legal complexities involved in the case mentioned by the Deputy. As I said, I will get the Minister for Justice and Equality to advise her of the situation. I thank her for raising the matter.