Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Mar 2015

Vol. 871 No. 3

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am sure the Minister will accept that since the 1990s this House has debated many scandals, allegations and issues surrounding sexual abuse, particularly of children and young people, and the rape of young people, which happened across the country in different contexts within the church from diocese to diocese, within sport, particularly in swimming, and within schools. There is an ongoing inquiry, for example, into child abuse in Northern Ireland. We have had many inquiries here and many commissions of inquiry in the Republic. One need only recall Cloyne, Ferns and Dublin, to give a number of examples.

Everyone in this House was very clear in terms of condemning that abuse and in condemning anybody who would have been complicit in the cover up of that abuse. I am particularly mindful of the very strong and strident comments of Deputy Mary Lou McDonald. Back in 2009, which was a significant year, as we know now, in the context of the report of abuse in the Dublin diocese, she said that anyone, including gardaí, found to be complicit in the cover-up of child abuse must be arrested and made to face the full rigours of the law. She also made other significant comments on that occasion. If one substituted the words "Sinn Féin leadership" or Sinn Féin authorities" for the words "the church", "gardaí" or "others", I wonder would people come to the same conclusion in terms of what should happen.

Suffice to say that allegations were ignored across the board for too long and many people were emotionally scarred and traumatised as a result. One of the big issues for many people in those abuse scandals was the fear of coming forward, the fear of being stigmatised and, above all, the fear of not being believed and being undermined by those who would have abused them.

When the Maíria Cahill episode occurred we saw similar patterns emerging of attempts to undermine her credibility, and an online campaign was launched against her undermining her character and so on. This week we have had the heartbreaking account of Paudie McGahon's story on the "Spotlight" programme on Tuesday night. He gained the courage to tell his story, and Maíria Cahill telling her story was the trigger for him to go public on the issue. Both of their actions have encouraged others to come forward. Fundamentally, the people want justice and the truth. It is very important that we be clear that there is a responsibility on all involved to obey the law and to respond to the legal requirements. I was struck by the fact that on LMFM yesterday, the leader of Sinn Féin, Deputy Adams, when asked whether it was not a breach of the Children First guidelines - whose aim is to protect children - not to report this, made an extraordinary comment to the effect that, first of all, in order for a statement to be made to the Garda, someone needs to substantiate it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

A question, please, Deputy.

Deputy Micheál Martin

This is fundamentally not the case. There are two elements to this: there is the issue of a criminal investigation, and the issue of reporting this to the HSE, at the time, and now to Tusla. There is a fundamental issue with regard to protecting children right now. Those who abused people are still at large and could abuse others within their families, neighbourhoods or communities.

The fundamental point I want to put to the Minister is this. Given the fact that we have faced up to this before with regard to different institutions, I ask the Government to give serious consideration to establishing a commission of inquiry into the allegations of the "Spotlight" programme and wider issue of how Sinn Féin as an entity dealt with allegations of child abuse. We know from the events in Ferns and Cloyne that where co-operation is forthcoming, these inquiries can be expeditious and efficient and can get to the truth of the matter. That can happen where there is co-operation, full disclosure and the provision of information to such a commission of inquiry. There are different ways of doing that, and it is time we had such a commission.

Minister for Education and Skills (Deputy Jan O'Sullivan)

I thank the Deputy for his comments. I agree with him on the points he made, particularly the important point that anybody who has information should bring it forward to the relevant authorities, whether that be An Garda Síochána, Tusla or the HSE. There is an obligation on anybody who feels that children are at risk in any way and has information to suggest that children at risk to bring it forward. Certainly, the courage of Maíria Cahill and Paudie McGahon in coming forward will give other people the courage to do so as well. That has been the general experience when programmes such as the "Spotlight" programme have been shown. A representative from the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre interviewed on radio this morning indicated that it has had an increased number of calls. Therefore, it is vital that information is provided by anyone who has it.

I agree with the Deputy that there are questions to be answered by Sinn Féin in regard to the information it has, particularly in regard to people who may be abroad in our society, whether in this country or elsewhere, and are a risk to children. The Children First guidelines and all the various measures that have been implemented give clear guidance as to what should be done.

I would also question Deputy Adams in particular regarding what he said - namely, that he needed more substantial information. If a person has any concerns that children are at risk, then he or she should go to the Garda. There are certainly questions to be answered. There are particular questions as well about another matter. As has been admitted, there were "internal inquiries", if I can use that nice phrase; "kangaroo courts" is another term that is used.

Deputy Eric Byrne

Kangaroo courts.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

If there were such practices, are there people in Sinn Féin who have information as to who attended those courts, where they are now and what information is available in order to protect children? There are a great deal of questions to be asked. I think more information will be provided.

The question the Deputy raised about a commission of inquiry is one that can be considered. There is certainly an onus on Sinn Féin to give the information to the appropriate people. That is the first obligation and it is a very serious one. Many members of Sinn Féin and others in this House have frequently raised issues to do with child protection - Deputy Martin rightly raised this issue - and those are issues we all take very seriously. This Government and, I acknowledge, previous Governments have put many measures in place. We cannot be concerned only about child abuse that occurred in the past in institutions. If we have information, we have a duty to bring it forward to the appropriate authorities.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The only way it can come forward now is through a commission of inquiry. It could be done on a module-by-module basis and in this jurisdiction alone it could be very revealing.

Surely people would come forward in the context of a commission of inquiry and say who was involved in that kangaroo court in 2002. Who were the people who attended it and carried out the internal investigation, who were essentially complicit in preventing it from getting to the Garda? I have talked to people in the child law area. There is a duty defined in legislation and interpreted in case law to be proactive in their investigation of allegations of abuse for the purpose of protecting children from potential abuse now or into the future.

A question that would have to be asked, for example, is where are those alleged perpetrators now? These people exiled this person in 2002 in the full knowledge that the person had committed abuse not just to Paudie McGahon, but to others. The bottom line is what access did that perpetrator and others have to children in their daily lives through family or employment?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is why allegations of abuse have to be investigated - to show that children are not exposed to potential abuse. In terms of any information that is held by Sinn Féin or its associates, therefore, there is a legal obligation that this knowledge or information should be provided now to Tusla and to the Garda in order to protect children who could potentially be exposed to further abuse by an individual or individuals against whom allegations have been made.

I would make the point-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

A question please.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----that, as we know, some commissions of inquiry have held their hearings in confidential settings and then produced comprehensive reports to shine a light on the practices, what happened and did not happen and who was complicit in the cover-up of grave allegations. The bottom line is that in 2002, which is not too long ago, all of this was deliberately, premeditatively kept from the Garda and the Health Service Executive, HSE. It defies any credibility that senior people within the ranks of Sinn Féin did not know what was going on, given the circumstances surrounding the case itself and the personalities involved.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is just not credible, but in 2009 we learned that the leader of Sinn Féin, on his own admission, knew about this and did not refer it to the HSE or the Garda at the time.

Deputy Robert Dowds

A disgrace.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is as plain, simple and straightforward as that, and no satisfactory response or explanation has come from the leader of Sinn Féin, and none will come because we are tired of the mantra of "Please come forward".

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Put your question, Deputy.

Deputy Micheál Martin

These people themselves know, so a statutory basis is the only way forward now in terms of trying to get to the bottom of this and getting the truth.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

While a commission of inquiry would certainly have merit, the most urgent aspect is that information that is available is given to the authorities now because if children are at risk now, we need people who know to come forward. I agree with the Deputy that information that was available in 2009, and before and after, should be given to the appropriate authorities. I find it incredible that there is not knowledge of these matters because, inevitably, from the information we have from Mairia Cahill, and from Paudie McGahon, there was extensive practice that anybody who has knowledge of must bring forward now.

A commission of inquiry would take time to set up, and it would have to have structures and so on.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Maybe we should ask Sinn Féin.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

Cop on to yourself.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I accept there would be merit in that, but the urgency of the matter is that information that is available should be given now.

I would be concerned that immediately after the "Spotlight" programme an MP representing Northern Ireland came out and rubbished the programme. Others have since made other comments, but that is an indication that there is a mindset that still does not want to declare the information they have. Everybody in this House has an onus to ensure that whatever information is available it is brought forward now in order to protect children in whichever jurisdiction.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is more than a mantra to say that those with information must come forward. It was most eloquently put by Paudie McGahon who said that nobody should be afraid to come forward.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Why were they afraid?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I want to reiterate that. Victims of sexual abuse, rape and sexual violence are often anxious and fearful about coming forward. It can be fear of not being accepted by their own families.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Or being shot.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It can be fear-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, if you do not mind-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Excuse me, this is Leaders' Questions where we have questions from the leaders and answers from the Minister.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It can be fear of social ostracisation. It can be fear for very many reasons. In the case of Paudie McGahon or others who say they were abused by so-called republicans-----

Deputy James Bannon

And you do not believe them.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

-----members of the IRA, the fear, understandably, can be more profound.

I echo what Paudie has said - nobody be afraid. The only way in which we deal with matters of abuse in our society, irrespective of who the abuser is, is when people feel empowered to come forward in whatever manner is best for them. Some have come into the light of the public gaze and told their story. Paudie has done it, and Maíria Cahill before him. That took a great deal of courage, and I want to acknowledge them for it. That is my first point.

Second, anybody within Sinn Féin or anybody anywhere else who has information on these issues or on any child who may be in danger or at risk has, since 2012, a positive legal obligation to bring that information forward. That is the law of the land.

As a member of Sinn Féin, on behalf of my colleagues-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

We routinely bring forward information to the statutory authorities as a matter of course.

A proposition was made by the Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness, to An Taoiseach last November to create a process, a mechanism and a climate in which those who suffered abuse can come forward on the basis of a North-South intervention between the Government here in Dublin and the Executive in the North. It took until the other day for the Taoiseach to even respond to or acknowledge that proposal.

Deputy Simon Harris

It took Gerry a lot longer.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

A question please, Deputy.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is now essential that we create that mechanism and allow people the opportunity to come forward and to access the justice system and also the considerable supports a survivor of sexual violence, rape or abuse requires. My question to the Minister is whether the Labour Party supports that initiative. Will this Government now work with the Northern Executive to create that mechanism to allow people to come forward?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I put it to Deputy McDonald that in the first part of her intervention, she put the onus back on the victims, people who were abused. In the second part of her contribution, she put the onus on other authorities. That is avoiding the responsibility that she and her own party have-----

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

It is about time the Deputy and her own party took their responsibility in this matter rather than putting it on people who were abused and providing a smokescreen in regard to a North-South intervention. I do not have a problem with that but that is not the point. The point is that there is information within the Deputy's party and with others she was associated with that must be brought forward. We know, for example, that Sinn Féin and the IRA conducted their own investigation into child abuse, and I understand there are about 100 cases. It is about time the Deputy told us what people around her know, her role within her party and others who have, and have had, particular roles within her party.

It is all very well to fire missiles around this Chamber in regard to child abuse-----

Deputy Eric Byrne

They have not gone away, you know.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

-----but she is trying to avoid any responsibility for herself and her party.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

That is what the courts are for.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is not my intention to fire missiles or anything else around the Chamber. We find ourselves faced with a number of traumatic sets of circumstances.

The Minister should bear in mind this. When all the commentary is over, the political point-scoring is done and the dramatic grandstanding on some people's parts is finished, the victims will be left with their pain. That is what needs to be sorted.

Deputy Simon Harris

Deputy McDonald should not pretend to care for them.

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order, please.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Let me say this to reassure the Minister.

Deputy Robert Dowds

It is outrageous.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

There is nothing outrageous about acknowledging the pain and suffering of victims. How that is outrageous is beyond me.

Deputy Simon Harris

It is a pity Deputy McDonald did not do it when she was chairman of Sinn Féin.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order, please.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Let me say this. I fully acknowledge and I fully understand the responsibilities that I have, as an elected representative, as a citizen, as a member of Sinn Féin and as the deputy leader of this party. I fully understand the onus - let me speak directly to republicans - on every last one of us-----

A Deputy

Speak to the people.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

-----to ensure the safety of our children and to ensure that where there has been an injustice done to anybody, it is corrected. We cannot rewrite history. That is beyond our scope. What we can do is do the right thing in the here and now. Another thing that we cannot do, and that we simply will not do, is carry out the functions and role of An Garda Síochána or the PSNI in the North.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Robert Dowds

Why were there kangaroo courts?

Deputy Simon Harris

Why were they having a kangaroo court?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order, please.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

What were the kangaroo courts for then?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Before Deputy Dowds gives himself a stroke, let me remind him that I have stated clearly - let me repeat for the record so that there is no misunderstanding - that anybody with any information should bring that forward.

Deputy Simon Harris

Change the record.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

In fact, the person the Government most criticises here in the course of this exchange, Deputy Adams, has brought information forward to the Garda.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

He kept it for long enough.

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Please.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I understand that other elected Members of this House have done likewise, and that is absolutely the correct course of action.

A Deputy

Why did it take so long?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Please.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The point of the intervention by the Northern Ireland Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness, was to recognise the reality for victims at the hands of so-called republicans.

Deputy Eric Byrne

There is a smokescreen here.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

In my estimation, anybody who rapes a child forfeits the right to describe themselves as a republican.

Deputy Simon Harris

But they do not have to go to the Garda station.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order, please.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

All those who have suffered in that way, and indeed others, require that we recognise the need for them to come forward in the right atmosphere and with the right supports.

Deputy Joe Carey

How many victims are there?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Deputy Eric Byrne accused me, or Mr. McGuinness, of throwing up a smoke screen. It is not a smoke screen. It is a good proposal.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Those who work with victims and survivors - we have spoken to many of them - reckon that this is a good proposal and that it could work.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Could Deputy McDonald ask a question?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

If it needs to be improved upon, let us do that.

Deputy Joe Carey

How many more victims are there? How many more does Deputy McDonald know about?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Can we have a commitment from the Government that it will engage positively with this initiative and that we can bring it about in short order?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

First, anybody who saw the "Spotlight" programme will have had a graphic account of the way in which kangaroo courts worked and the way in which victims were made to feel afraid to come forward with information. No doubt there is a significant amount of knowledge and information around all of that activity, of which persons who have been associated with Deputy McDonald's party have knowledge, and that information needs to be given now so that people can be protected. It is not enough merely to throw out an empty phrase, "Come forward".

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is not an empty phrase.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

It is.

Deputy Regina Doherty

Empty vessels make the most noise.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

Undoubtedly, there is a significant amount of information that should be given. I ask Deputy McDonald not only to ask victims to come forward but to ask anybody who was ever involved in any of this activity to come forward and give the information.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I have done that.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Did Deputy McDonald tell them to do it?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister, without interruption.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

There is clearly little evidence of that happening. Certainly, those who have had the courage to come forward about their own experience have done a considerable service and have, I hope, given courage to others, but there is a lot that Deputy McDonald and her colleagues can do on this issue.

When it comes to grandstanding, we have seen a fine example of grandstanding here today. Deputy McDonald talked about political standing. We heard a lot of eloquent generalised language. What we need is specific information that will protect children in society.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

For the Technical Group, I call Deputy Tom Fleming.

Deputy Tom Fleming

Save Rural Ireland is a new group of stakeholders representative of 1,200 community groups across the country. The group was recently formed and has over 100,000 members currently. They met a group of Deputies and Senators yesterday to express their views on the continuing demise of rural Ireland and the need for Government policy to halt this downward slide. They are highlighting the issues currently affecting the social and economic development of rural Ireland and they are seeking a change in Government policies in several issues pertaining to rural decline. At the presentation to Oireachtas Members and to the media yesterday, the group reflected on many issues similar to those raised in Richard Curran's outstanding documentary programme on Monday night last on RTE1. The programme, aptly titled "The Battle for Rural Ireland," depicted the plight of rural areas and their fight to survive. The group's representatives sense that the rural community has gone to the edge of the cliff. They have got to the stage at which they are prepared to fight and resist being given the final push out over the cliff and into the abyss of no return. That is the reality facing the countryside at present.

Almost a decade of recession and recession policies and politics has taken a huge toll on these rural areas, and the group has identified a number of key issues which need immediate attention. Will the Government address in what remains of its lifetime a number of these items that were brought before us yesterday?

There is need for a regional spread in job creation. At present, three quarters of all jobs are going into Dublin and other principal cities, and this cannot be allowed to continue. The Government needs to accelerate the roll-out of broadband and ensure the viability of post offices and other services. Some GP services in rural areas are being discontinued due to retirements, etc. We need to get back our doctors from abroad and ensure there are services in remote rural areas. There are several such cases at present. The issue of Bus Éireann routes is topical.

Finally, I compliment the Minister, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, on what she has achieved in government in changing the system for school enrolment. This would mean the retention of a significant number of teachers as well as the recruitment of a number of additional teachers. I will give her credit; she has rural Ireland in her heart. Perhaps she will take these matters to Cabinet.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I thank Deputy Tom Fleming, who has raised an important issue. The Government has appointed a Minister of State with responsibility for rural affairs, Deputy Ann Phelan. She works across the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and is doing an effective job in raising these issues and giving them importance in government. In fact, she attended Cabinet last week to discuss one of the issues about which Deputy Tom Fleming is concerned.

I thank the Deputy for his compliments concerning the issue of smaller schools. We have a very good programme in place to alleviate the situation for schools that were at risk of losing teachers, recognising in particular isolated rural schools that are 8 km or more from the nearest school. We have also been engaging with local communities where enrolment numbers are dropping. This is an example of an action that Government has taken to address issues of serious concern in rural areas. Another is the announcement of the Leader programme by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Kelly, and the Minister of State, Deputy Ann Phelan, in recent days. Leader is an extremely important programme for rural Ireland. The most recent announcements pertaining to the Action Plan for Jobs by the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, also had a strong regional dimension. The latest plan stresses the importance of ensuring that jobs are created in rural Ireland and in those parts of the country that have not benefitted from the economic recovery that we are now seeing, particularly along the east coast and in Dublin. The Department of Social Protection has ensured that post offices in general and rural post offices in particular are used to provide many of its services and payments to the public. The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy White, is working on the roll-out of broadband which is extremely important in rural areas, especially for those trying to run small businesses.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The roll-out is like a glacier. It is very slow.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

In my own area of responsibility, we have finished the roll-out of high-speed broadband to post-primary schools and are now concentrating on rolling it out fully to primary schools.

We are working on a wide variety of areas relevant to rural Ireland, and Deputy Fleming has raised some other areas for consideration. I read recent media reports on the group to which he referred, and Government is happy to work with its members and with all of the Deputies in this House who represent rural constituencies to ensure that rural Ireland remains a priority.

Deputy Tom Fleming

There is a need for the development of a specialised rural policy which could be integrated into any future programme for Government. This has not been done to date and the approach has been a bit scattered and fragmented.

I wish the Minister of State, Deputy Ann Phelan, the very best and believe that she has one of the most responsible positions in Government. Several glaring deficiencies have been raised with Deputies representing rural Ireland, and there is a need for collective responsibility in Cabinet to address them. Some of the issues I raised pertain to various Departments, and the Cabinet will have to wake up and focus on the areas that need to be addressed urgently. In that context, I believe that the Minister of State, Deputy Ann Phelan, is entitled to sit at the Cabinet table, as was done in the past with other Ministers of State. I cannot recollect the details precisely but during the time of the so-called rainbow Government, a Minister of State was elevated to Cabinet. I ask that this be done immediately in the case of the Minister of State.

I compliment Mr. Pat Spillane on the sterling work he has done and also Mr. Edmond Harty from Dairymaster, a very successful rural company. The recommendations in the report of the Commission for the Economic Development of Rural Areas could be very effective if they were implemented properly. I hope the Government will give local partnerships the responsibility they deserve because they have delivered high-quality service under the Leader programme. I welcome the new Leader programme that has been introduced and I hope that the role of the partnerships will not be diluted. I urge the Government to give some teeth, so to speak, to the position of the Minister of State, Deputy Ann Phelan, to allow her to implement the recommendations of the aforementioned CEDRA report.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I assure Deputy Fleming that the Minister of State, Deputy Ann Phelan, has had one-to-one conversations with me and all of my Cabinet colleagues on issues relating to rural Ireland to ensure we prioritise them within our areas of responsibility. Small rural schools would be an example of one of the issues about which I have had intensive discussions with her.

On the issue of Ministers of State sitting at the Cabinet table, apart from the Chief Whip, the Minister of State at the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Nash, attends Cabinet meetings alongside his senior Minister, Deputy Bruton, because the Government has made jobs one of its top priorities. As Deputy Fleming said in his opening remarks, job creation is crucial in rural Ireland. We need to build on the strengths of different parts of the country to provide jobs for people near their homes. Having two Ministers from the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation at the Cabinet table is significant. Whoever is in Government after the next general election will decide which areas should be given priority in the context of seats at the Cabinet table.