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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 21 Apr 2015

Vol. 875 No. 1

Leaders' Questions

In The Sunday Times last Sunday there was an article concerning the sale of Siteserv to Millington under the ageis of the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation. The article was based on freedom of information documents the newspaper had secured from the Department of Finance in the form of memoranda. Any reader of the article would have to come to the conclusion that there are grave concerns about how that company was sold.

There were a number of such concerns. I pay tribute to the Independent Deputy Catherine Murphy, who has doggedly pursued this issue for well over 12 months, if not longer, through parliamentary questions and so on. In the beginning she was told by the Minister, Deputy Noonan, that he was satisfied that the best interests of the taxpayer were met in the sale of this company. We know that IBRC sold Siteserv at a loss of €105 million. We know that the legal advisers acted for both the purchaser and the seller. We now know that the financial adviser Davy, which was advising the company but whose fundamental obligation was to its own shareholders and not the taxpayer, recommended a payout of €5 million to the shareholders to induce them to sell. Therefore, in a company that owed the State €150 million, the shareholders and directors, five of whom were, I think, clients of Davy, got €5 million. Trade buyers were excluded on what I would consider to be relatively spurious grounds and there were reports of other companies that wanted to bid higher but were spurned. Latterly, as Independent Deputy Catherine Murphy was putting her questions, the Minister revealed somewhat more in answers to parliamentary questions, and outlined all of the concerns I have outlined as being concerns of his officials. We have now learned that there were two separate reviews of the deal, one by Department of Finance officials and another by Central Bank officials. There are huge potential conflicts of interest all over this deal. Let us remember that we are talking about a company whose subsidiary, Sierra, went on to win the largest contract to install water meters and has now become a very profitable company in itself.

The point I am making is this. Is the Taoiseach satisfied that the Government, and particularly the Minister for Finance, did everything it could to protect the taxpayer, given all of these questions? A separate memo also states, rather alarmingly, that officials had concerns about other large transactions under the aegis of IBRC. These were taxpayers' assets that were being disposed of. Will the Taoiseach initiate an inquiry into this - a proper inquiry to get to the bottom of it? It is important because it goes to the very heart of how the taxpayer was or is protected, or not protected, in terms of the sale of State assets and also in terms of the specific deal in question.

It is a serious matter that the Deputy raises. I did not see the article to which he referred, although I take his point that this is based upon articles or documentation received from the Department. While the Deputy has asked a number of questions, I do not have the information to reply in detail to him. Perhaps it might be better if this were responded to in some detail by the Minister for Finance, either by Priority Question or by Topical Issue, or, indeed, by discussion at the Oireachtas committee. I do not want to say something that I cannot stand over here.

The Deputy has raised a number of issues. He has previously questioned the sale of Siteserv in March 2012, which was approved by the board of IBRC. I do not have the detail of what the Deputy is talking about in that regard. I will find answers to the questions the Deputy raises, but I do not want to commit to an official investigation until I am satisfied that answers can be had to the questions that Deputy Martin and Deputy Catherine Murphy raise in regard to IBRC.

Frankly, I find it incredible that the Taoiseach could come in here on a Tuesday and say to me that he has not read the article in question. I find that very difficult to comprehend. Did anybody bring it to the Taoiseach's attention in his Department? Did the Minister, Deputy Noonan, ring him about it? Did anybody alert him to the fact that Government memos were going to be released under freedom of information and that the article in The Sunday Times contained such very serious assertions? It was stated:

Arguably, no payment should have been made to shareholders given the precarious position the company was in. Examinership would appear to have been a reasonable option.

In addition, trade buyers were excluded and there was the question of "whether [having] the company running the process was the correct decision", and so on.

The Taoiseach is leader of the country and is in charge of Government. There are people out there in mortgage arrears whose cases I have been raising with the Taoiseach for the last month. They do not get paid off when they owe a bank a lot of money. We are talking about a company that owed €150 million. The advisers on the sale of the company recommended that they got the top end - €5 million. Five of the shareholders were clients of this company. This was all going on under the Taoiseach's nose and he was just oblivious to the whole thing, if we are to believe him today.

Thank you, Deputy.

It goes very much to the heart of how IBRC was doing its work on behalf of the taxpayer. Did anybody at all alert the Taoiseach to this over the last number of days? Did any of his officials contact him to say there was a very serious article on the front page of The Sunday Times? I know Deputy Catherine Murphy asked about this on Leaders' Questions, so the Taoiseach would have been aware of the issue. It is not as if it is completely new issue to him, as it was raised before on a number of occasions.

Thank you, Deputy.

The problem is that it has been drip, drip, drip. It has taken nearly a year and a half for people to get the most basic information from the system in regard to the transaction itself and how the deal was conducted.

A question, please.

The problem is this. The person in mortgage arrears who turns up in court to have their house repossessed is watching this.

Hundreds of them.

They are watching a different set of people operate to a different set of rules. Small businesses and small companies-----

We have all learned about their cashflow issues and how they were put to the pin of their collar by banks and everybody else. They are also watching aghast at all of this.

Sorry, Deputy; we are over time.

The only way one can respond in an effective way, because this feeds anger and resentment-----

It is morally wrong.

-----is to have a proper inquiry to make sure nobody is getting favourable treatment over the vast majority of people out there who have challenges and difficulties in their lives because of the crash.

I do not have the opportunity to read every newspaper article that is written about matters of current affairs across a vast spectrum of the various elements of the media. The Deputy is well aware that I am not informed of the release of freedom of information requests, which come in by the hundred to different Departments, nor, indeed, have I any access to deliberations on what should or should not be released. There are official personnel in every Department who handle those requests completely independently.

No, but on Sunday the Taoiseach would have been aware.

They are released as per the law in respect of requests that are made to them.

In regard to mortgage arrears-----

The Minister for Finance said it would be-----

Order, please. The Taoiseach has the floor.

In regard to mortgage arrears, as I have already outlined, the Government has committed to going beyond the introduction of the Insolvency Service of Ireland, and will put in place, hopefully, a number of further options for consideration by persons who are in distress with their mortgages. The Government, as the Deputy is aware, is acutely sensitive to the issue of people losing their homes or the roof over their houses. The Deputy may throw his eyes up to heaven if he likes.

We are talking about this deal. Come on.

Show some action.

This is part of the catastrophe the Deputy left behind him and it is still not sorted out. Yes, there are many thousands who are in difficulties with their mortgages. Over 100,000 sustainable solutions have been put together, and I think that encouraging-----

What about Deputy Penrose's Bill?

-----but it is not sufficient, on the one hand, for banks not to have passed on interest rate reductions when they are borrowing money themselves at a much lower rate than they are charging, nor is it right and proper that banks fail to do deals when sensible and practical solutions are put on the table. It is in those areas-----

What about shareholders getting €5 million from a company that owes so much to the taxpayer?

It is in those areas that the Government is committed to bringing in a number of further options.

With regard to what happened in March 2012, the board of IBRC met and approved the sale of Siteserv - Deputy Martin did not mention it by name, but that is probably one of the cases he was talking about. Under the relationship framework at the time between the Minister for Finance and the bank, which had been in place since July 2009, the board of IBRC was required to engage with the Minister for Finance on certain key issues, which included any material acquisitions, disposals, investments, realisations or other transactions, other than in the ordinary course of Anglo Irish Bank's banking business.

It should be noted, however, that that framework did not include any specific monetary thresholds which would trigger a compulsory or mandatory consultation with the Minister for Finance.

The Taoiseach knows why.

It should also be noted that at that time the ordinary course of the bank's business was to conduct an orderly rundown and ultimate liquidation of the bank, which happened. As such, IBRC's efforts as a secure lender to maximise the recovery of its loans to Siteserv was considered in the ordinary course of business. For that reason, and because of the framework relationship, IBRC was not required to consult with the Minister for Finance on this matter in advance of making the decision to approve the sale of the company referred to in the question.

That is not correct. That is misleading.

Deputy Martin has asked a number of questions.

I have a point of order.

There are no points of order on Leaders' Questions.

I have a very important point.

The Deputy has asked a number of questions. I have said I do not have the detailed information but I will respond to him in detail on the questions he has raised.

The Taoiseach read out the existing mandatory framework. It is a very important point. The officials from the Department of Finance told the management of IBRC that it was to act as if the framework relationship that came into place two weeks later was already in place, which meant that it should have been notified because it considered a loss of over €100 million. The Taoiseach should put that on the record.

People have been horrified at weekend news reports of the deaths of an estimated 900 people in the Mediterranean. Many of those people died because unscrupulous traffickers locked refugees, including women and children, in the hold of the ship that sank. Some 1,500 citizens have drowned on their way to Europe in 2015, which is 50 times more than at this point in 2014. There are reports of other ships having sunk in the past 24 hours.

The images of refugees being rescued are now a nightly sight on our television screens. These people are fleeing conflicts in Syria, Libya, Somalia, Nigeria and other places. They are also fleeing famine and poverty in sub-Saharan Africa. Like the Irish through the centuries, they are prosecuted, persecuted, injured, hungry and looking for a better life. We should not lose sight of the fact that their horrors are a direct result of Europe's colonial record over the years and the much more recent policies of the West towards north Africa and the Middle East.

Italy has urged the EU to act to prevent further loss of life. EU foreign Ministers met and produced a ten-point plan which, in my humble opinion, is inadequate for dealing with this humanitarian disaster. For example, doubling funds to the EU border patrol mission will not provide the search and rescue operations needed in the face of this crisis. I ask the Taoiseach to outline to the Dáil the message he will bring to our EU partners and the proposals he will argue for at Thursday's meeting of the European Council.

As we speak, a commemoration march from Strokestown to the east coast is taking place. It commemorates the 1,490 people who walked the route during the Famine and boarded coffin ships for Canada, upon which more than 700 of them died. A point made yesterday was that this replicates what is happening in the Middle East. This is simply appalling in the sense of humanity. The fact that it is on the Mediterranean exacerbates the situation, because people's lives are lost through drowning.

Some 1 million people have left Syria and moved to south Lebanon or Jordan, but there is no humanitarian plan to deal with that scale of migration. There are countries without boundaries in Africa, where people move from Somalia through Libya to the coast to get to Europe. The scale of this is unprecedented in terms of numbers. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Flanagan, representing the Government, and the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Fitzgerald, attended the meeting in Luxembourg yesterday. There was agreement from the European Ministers for foreign affairs and security and justice on the ten-point plan. President Tusk has called a meeting of the European Council on Thursday to deal with this.

Deputy Adams's question is perfectly valid. It depends upon the scale of investment in search and rescue operations and humanitarian relief. The second part of that concerns what it is possible to do in vast areas that are on a knife edge and where all kinds of cruelty against humanity are practised. These people, desperate in their destitution, are arriving at the shores of the Mediterranean, are put, in some cases, on ships without captain, steward or compass, and are doomed before they ever sail. This is an appalling disgrace. It will not be sorted out at the European Council meeting on Thursday, but Italy and Malta are to be commended for what they did. Italy had the Mare Nostrum project in place and now needs assistance in terms of surveillance, interception, rescue and humanitarian relief.

There is a deeper and much more challenging problem in the vast countries where large numbers of people are being treated savagely by warring factions, a problem that is not confined to Libya alone. Ireland will make its case on Thursday and will continue to offer humanitarian assistance. A figure of 5,000 refugees has been mentioned, and Ireland will play its part as it has always done. In many years gone by, people from this country went wherever they might be welcome, which is one of the reasons we have such an extensive diaspora of descendants.

This is an immediate problem. Children, babies and helpless people are being loaded onto boats at this moment in time by unscrupulous racketeers who know that the complete inadequacy of the vessels they are putting them on dooms them to the probability of drowning in the Mediterranean when all they want is to flee from persecution, savagery and death and look beyond the immediate shores to a place where they might have hope and a new life. The challenge is of an unprecedented scale for all countries in Europe. For our part, in terms of the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Justice and Equality and Defence, we will contribute in whatever way we can to dealing with this issue.

I tried to moderate my question because I do not want to make any political points out of such a serious issue, but I asked the Taoiseach to outline for us the message he will bring to our European partners and the proposals for which he will argue. He did not do that. He told me about a commemorative march from Strokestown. I commend those on that march. The Taoiseach is very familiar with the walk from Louisburgh known as the Trail of Tears, a road I have walked. Famously, Native Americans assisted Irish people from the Taoiseach's county. If I recall correctly, it was the Choctaw tribe, who did more in their day for the Irish people than we are doing now for others. The problem is a result of direct interference by Western powers in the affairs of the countries involved. People are being persecuted and are fleeing for a better life. They are trying to reach a better place to live.

It has been reported that the EU will seek to stop them at sea. Is that true? What is the view of the Government on that? Will people be detained in camps in Libya? The Taoiseach mentioned the fever camps. I visited those in Grosse Île on the eastern coast of Canada and North America, where our people died. What happened in the era of the coffin ships is happening now.

The proposal to resettle 5,000 immigrants in EU states is a drop in the ocean considering that hundreds of thousands are desperate to travel. Reference is made to a package of return travel to where the individuals are trying to flee from. What is this? Ryanair? The resettlement of 1,200 people in 14 years is what we have achieved. The treatment of people in direct provision centres is not a matter of which the Government or its predecessors can be proud. Will the Taoiseach accept that as a nation that has experienced conflict, famine, forced emigration, fever camps, death and the spectre of coffin ships, Ireland needs to strengthen search and rescue operations through a joint effort involving EU member states? Does he accept that the European Union as a whole must provide more safe and legal routes to Europe for those who are now being forced to take dangerous journeys in the first place and ensure they have access to international protection? The very least the Taoiseach could do is inform the Dáil of the proposals he will put at the meeting to help alleviate the plight of these people.

Yes, I am aware of the Walk of Tears and the incredible story of the Choctaw Indians who sent us the equivalent of $10,000 for famine relief.

The purpose of the meeting of the European Council on Thursday is to endorse the ten-point plan put together yesterday by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Ministers for security and home affairs in Luxembourg. Clearly, there is an immediate catastrophe facing us. People are being loaded onto unseaworthy craft now on the shores of Libya. Many of them have travelled from Somalia, Mali and other locations, and others are fleeing the conflicts in both Syria and Libya. They all want to cross the Mediterranean, and Malta, Lampedusa and Italy are the first ports of call. Clearly, this is a matter of the utmost seriousness. What can Ireland do about this? It can contribute with other bigger nations with greater resources. The Deputy is well aware that what is in our own DNA, given our history, leads us to be one of the most humanitarian countries around, proportionately speaking. We will continue to be that. As I stated, between the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, the Minister for Justice and Equality and the Minister for Defence, we will contribute to this debate on Thursday in the hope of saving the lives of those who have just left the shores of Libya in craft that will never reach the far side of the Mediterranean. The ten-point plan exists for everybody.

The pirates, smugglers and unscrupulous people are using their deadly opportunity to make money by putting innocent people, who are fleeing war, rape, pillage and all kinds of inhumanity, on boats to cross the Mediterranean from the Libyan shore in the knowledge that there is sometimes neither skipper, captain, steward nor compass to get them to the far side. Mare Nostrum did save many lives. I expect that the meeting on Thursday will result in a much more focused and immediate response in terms of greater surveillance, activity and humanitarian relief and a greater opportunity to search for and rescue these innocent people. From a political point of view, addressing the causes of the desperation of so many people, requiring them to leave for Europe, must be dealt with in the bigger political field. As the Deputy is well aware, that is an enormous challenge.

Regarding the provision of an adequate home help service by the HSE, there have been alarming circumstances in County Kerry, particularly in the past two weeks. Hundreds of vulnerable recipients have been informed by letter that the HSE is making some drastic cuts to its already-diminished service. which has been diminishing over the past two years. The unfortunate notice is being sent to a very worried and stressed group of citizens. This action is replicated in other counties. The Taoiseach will have to intervene very strongly with the Minister for Health as this cannot be allowed to continue.

The home help service for our elderly and vulnerable population is probably the best and most effective means of delivery of home care services to ensure people can live in their own communities, at a very low cost. This is the environment in which people are happiest. There is a policy of upgrading and developing the delivery of community care in general, but what is happening on the ground is contrary to all this. There is certainly a deficiency and we need to rectify it as a matter of urgency.

These regressive measures are further compounding an already-diminishing service. The service for many deserving elderly and infirm people is being very much cut down to the very minimum. The cost of home care provision is significantly lower than the cost of nursing home provision but there is currently an emphasis on forcing those in receipt of home care into private nursing homes as an alternative means of care. In many cases, an adequate home help service, in addition to the respite care provided in the district and community hospitals, would be the solution.

The trend has been evident over the past two years, in particular. The minimum number of home help hours has been provided. In many cases, perhaps only a half an hour is allowed at a certain time in the morning or afternoon. Consequently, the home help provider may not be in inside the door of the house and may be trying to get her or his chores done as fast as possible before leaving. What is happening is counter-productive. The best value for money is not being realised as the service is currently run. Over €70 million has been provided for the care of the elderly under the fair deal system and community care in general. I ask that sufficient moneys be invested immediately to address the issue I am raising. I ask the Taoiseach to speak to the Minister for Health this evening to stop this unfortunate action, which is causing undue fear, stress and strain among those concerned and their families.

The home help scheme has been of extraordinary benefit to thousands of people over the years, given the hours of care and attention given by the home help staff throughout the country. I agree with Deputy Fleming that elderly people, either living alone or in numbers in houses, prefer to be in their own place. Many can manage this with a little opportunity to have home help provided to them. In its decision before Christmas, the Government provided an extra €25 million for the fair deal scheme so people who have to go to nursing homes can do so without having to wait for a very long period. A further €75 million was allocated in recent weeks. A portion of that was for better home care packages, which would include home help service and care, depending on the complications or challenges people face.

The home help scheme is monitored and managed by individuals within each district. Many home help personnel, whom I meet regularly, will say they can adjust the hours for person X to suit him or her better.

As the Deputy pointed out, some people might require half an hour in the morning and others might require much longer. There is always a challenge with a population which is ageing to have adequate numbers of home help carers. This is part of the process of trying to normalise the health system so people can stay at home for as long as is possible before they may have to go to a nursing home for more full-time care and attention. I expect the home help managers in each district will look at the budget they have and the extent of personnel and how best to manage it in the interests of the patients. I am quite sure the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, will give the Deputy a more detailed response about any particular area, including his own.

It is a false economy by the HSE because it has been a very successful scheme and by far the best scheme operated by the HSE to retain and build up the concept of community care for those who are happiest among their own families and in their communities. Will the Taoiseach and the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, contact HSE South immediately to address urgently this matter in County Kerry and in other counties where it may be happening? It should be resolved this week rather than having these vulnerable and elderly people experience undue fears and stressful conditions. Rather than the negativity and cost-cutting, we need to counteract this with positive measures for the good of all and have an enhanced service at minimum cost. It can be done and I ask the Taoiseach to stop what is happening. He should direct the HSE to immediately withdraw the letters and provide adequate convalescence in the district hospitals and respite care to give occasional breaks to families and put in place procedures to resolve this to the satisfaction of everybody. It would be a good day's work if the Taoiseach acted with haste on this matter.

I thank Deputy Fleming for his contribution. He will agree the home help scheme has, by and large, given great comfort and has been a great response to so many people for a relatively low cost. A total of €320 million has been allocated for home care packages and home help allowances and 100,000 people receive benefit from it. I am sure this is not what the Deputy suggests should be stopped because of the great benefits people receive. It is only right and very normal that elderly people in receipt of home help assistance want to stay in their own homes and there are a variety of schemes around that to assist them. I have seen them in the Deputy's county where elements of the Tús scheme, together with the local authorities, have helped improve conditions in some of the houses where people receive home help and in the day care centres they visit to improve the quality and comfort of their lives. This issue is monitored all of the time. As I stated, €320 million has been allocated this year and 100,000 people receive support from it. I will have the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, reply to Deputy Fleming in respect of the letters which have been issued in his county.

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