The Government chose to fill this week's Dáil schedule telling the country how wonderful it believes it is. This sets a new world record in backslapping.
Leaders' Questions
Better than backstabbing.
It shows how out of touch the Government has become. There was little or no mention of how it would specifically tackle the plight of householders with variable mortgage interest rates other than by meeting the banks. The 300,000 families paying these penal variable rates pay on average 2% more than other EU customers, or €6,000 per annum. Over the lifetime of a mortgage, that is almost enough to pay for a house.
When we raised this matter in Private Members' time a month ago, the Government expressed concern and stated that it would speak with the banks. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, met the Governor of the Central Bank and expressed his concern. Last Tuesday, he stated that he would meet the banks' CEOs to express his concern. However, the horse has already bolted. At yesterday's Oireachtas finance committee meeting, Bank of Ireland and Ulster Bank confirmed that there would be no rate cut, as their variable rates were not overpriced as far as they were concerned.
Does the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources agree with the CEOs that their variable mortgage rates are not overpriced? Does he believe it acceptable that the banks are refusing to reduce their rates? Now that Plan A - expressing concern - has failed, has the Government a Plan B? Fianna Fáil will not let this matter go. We will pursue it until we force the Government to act. The majority of the 300,000 families involved are paying penal rates to banks that are fully owned by the Irish taxpayer and controlled by the Government. Other than expressing concern, is it going to do anything substantial to solve this problem?
Nothing.
The statement of Government priorities from 2014 to 2016 recognised that promoting and encouraging competition and new entrants in the banking sector were required to put downward pressure on interest rates for variable rate mortgage customers, both new and existing.
Change the script.
The mortgage interest rates that independent financial institutions operating in Ireland charge to customers are determined as a result of a commercial decision by the institutions concerned. The Minister for Finance and the Central Bank have no statutory role, as the Deputy is aware, in respect of the mortgage interest rates charged.
Send that script by e-mail.
While the ECB base rate is a factor in determining those rates, a broad range of other factors, including deposit rates, market funding costs, the competitive environment and the institutions' overall funding, are key determinants. The improvements in the overall economy, reduction in the cost of funds, increased demand and greater competition between lenders has led to a reduction in the standard variable rate, SVR, offered by the majority of banks for new customers or, in the case of AIB, all SVR customers.
Claptrap.
As part of the Central Bank's work on mortgage arrears, lenders were asked to consider all avenues to help customers in arrears, including interest rate reductions. The regulation of interest rates remains a policy area under active review.
"Active review"?
This has been the subject of correspondence between the Department of Finance and the Central Bank. The Consumer Protection (Regulation of Credit Servicing Firms) Bill 2015 will ensure that all mortgage holders will have the protection of the code of conduct on mortgage arrears and access to the Office of the Financial Services Ombudsman. The actions already taken by the Government to promote competition in the banking sector, including the establishment of the Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland, the credit guarantee scheme and the amendments to section 149 of the Consumer Credit Act to encourage new entrants into the financial sector, are important.
At a recent meeting between the Minister for Finance and the Governor of the Central Bank, the issue of mortgage interest rates was discussed. The Governor provided an update on the ongoing work that he and his officials were carrying out on the issue of the SVRs charged by lenders. The Governor and the Minister noted that the SVRs charged in Ireland were higher than in other euro area countries and had not fallen in line with ECB wholesale rates. The Central Bank will continue researching why this is the case and will publish its results shortly. The Governor will update the Minister on progress in due course.
In terms of the next step, the Central Bank will present the results of its research to the Minister in the coming weeks. He has given a commitment that he will initiate discussions with the six main lenders in Irish banking on the issue and looks forward to hearing their plans for reducing interest rates.
Unfortunately, the Minister's response did not address the issue. The banks have already indicated that they will not take the concerns of the Minister for Finance. I am disappointed in the Minister present because I believed that I would get a good and intelligent answer from him, but most of what he read-----
Toe the line. Read a script.
-----could have been read to us last November. I am afraid to say that he sounded like a ventriloquist's dummy. I do not think he even believed the script himself.
He came to the Chamber with a script, most of which was written last November, and parroted it.
A joke.
It seems that the banks are only interested in their own profits. By their actions, including those that they confirmed this week, they are adding to the social housing waiting list.
A bankers' charter.
They have admitted that they intend to chase people they have made homeless for the outstanding debts and negative equity. Did the Minister hear that? They will chase the homeless for the outstanding debts and negative equity.
Oliver Cromwell is back.
That was stated in Leinster House yesterday. They will not even leave the homeless alone.
Is it the case that the Government is powerless over the banks - it gave them a veto - or is it choosing to do nothing other than to meet them, examine the facts and express concern? None of that will reduce the rates. We assure the Government that it will answer in this Chamber every week from this week on until we see a reduction in rates. We will not let this go.
Hear, hear.
Fianna Fáil did not do much about the issue when it had responsibility for this.
The Deputy is well aware, and has not questioned what I stated, that there is no statutory power to direct a reduction in interest rates. If I am wrong in that, maybe the Deputy might correct me.
Smoke and mirrors.
Or if he is proposing-----
The Minister has asked me to correct something.
He started off-----
I thought that might upset him.
The Minister directed a question to me. On a point of order, the Minister-----
(Interruptions).
On a point of order, this is Leaders' Questions.
Yes, but if you give me an opportunity-----
The Minister has directed a question to me. He has signalled the right of the Government to answer.
The Deputy should sit down and take his seat.
Deputy-----
It is not a great audition.
The Minister has asked me a direct question. When the Minister asks direct questions, he-----
The Deputy has got his wings.
Deputy McGuinness is way better.
The Chair is on his feet.
Deputy Sean Fleming should sit down.
The Minister is replying to the questions.
Yes. The Deputy will get answers now.
The Minister asked me a direct question.
Try to show some bit of respect.
The Minister asked a direct question and I outlined what legislative powers the Minister for Finance had.
We know that the Deputy has no respect for-----
The Minister asked a direct question.
For heaven's sake.
The Minister asked a direct question. He is entitled to an answer.
Deputy Sean Fleming is a show. Deputy McGuinness was right. This carry-on is a disgrace to all of Fianna Fáil.
I will give him that answer.
(Interruptions).
If the Minister will withdraw his question to me, I will sit down.
Deputy, please.
Will he withdraw the question to me or does he want-----
(Interruptions).
Deputy McGuinness was right. Fianna Fáil is a show.
I will deal with this. Will the Deputy resume his seat?
If the Minister withdraws his question.
For God's sake.
If the Deputy does not resume his seat, I will suspend the House.
I will not have questions put to me in this Chamber without an opportunity to answer them.
The Deputy will not be able to spin.
The Minister asked the question. Does he want the answer?
It is like "Reeling in the Years" for Fianna Fáil. The face of the future.
I cannot put that to the Minister if the Deputy keeps talking.
Put it to him, or I will rise again if he does not-----
Is the Minister happy to reply without asking questions?
Absolutely.
(Interruptions).
The Minister has no answer. That is why.
The Minister, please.
Will he-----
(Interruptions).
Let me rephrase what I said-----
We never get an answer.
-----to assist the Deputy.
Does Deputy Mattie McGrath want to return to Fianna Fáil?
Will the Minister withdraw the question?
Deputy McGuinness would not have Deputy Mattie McGrath back if he were leader.
(Interruptions).
He has a script.
The Minister has the floor.
Where was Deputy Sean Fleming on the day of the bailout? Where was he for the bank guarantee?
Will the Minister withdraw the question? This will not run any more. Will he withdraw the question?
The Minister will answer the question if the Deputy resumes his seat.
No. He asked a question.
The Minister cannot answer.
I will answer his question.
There will be a telephone call from Cork in a moment.
Will he withdraw it?
Resume your seat. The Minister will reply.
Forget Joan Burton. Look at Alex.
Will he withdraw the question?
Will the Deputy please resume----
Will he withdraw the question or else let me answer it?
Deputy Fleming, please resume your seat. If you not do so, I will have to suspend the House. What you are doing is not fair to other Members.
(Interruptions).
Does Deputy Fleming want the Minister to reply?
(Interruptions).
I am suspending business for five minutes.
Sitting suspended at 12.10 p.m. and resumed at 12.15 p.m.
Before I call the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Alex White, I advise the House that if any Member has an issue or complaint relating to Standing Orders, the appropriate forum in which to raise it is the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, CPP. As Chair this morning, I am overseeing the procedures for Leaders' Questions. Any Member may go to the CPP with an issue relating to the ordering of business in the House, but he or she cannot stipulate how Leaders' Questions operate in this Chamber. I call on the Minister to reply to the question from Deputy Sean Fleming.
To assist in ensuring order in the House, I will not ask the Deputy any more questions. I can understand his aversion to being asked questions, whether it is about this issue, his party's economic policy or anything else. I will not ask him any more questions because I know he finds it difficult to address those issues.
I will answer any questions the Minister has.
What I have said in response to the Deputy is true. He started off in an attempt to mollify me by accusing me of being intelligent. All I am saying is that he knows the Government has no statutory power to intervene in the way he seems to be suggesting. If he is proposing a change in the law, let us hear what he has to say. I realise there is a competitive tension between the two parties opposite in their attempts to achieve notice in the House.
(Interruptions).
Order, please.
I am anxious to clarify the matter. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, said yesterday:
I am calling in the senior management of the six major lenders in the market in Ireland, and I will present them with the evidence from the Central Bank, and I will say to them I think they should reduce their interest rates and that we want to discuss it, and I will want them to explain why they cannot, but we would prefer it if they did. If you call that pressure, that is pressure, but I would see that as a discussion [with the banks] in the normal way. But I do not have legal authority to direct [the banks].
That is the position. If anybody in this House is able to tell me or the Minister it is wrong, I am all ears.
What we are seeing, yet again, is a hands-off Government when it comes to dealing with the banks. This State is reeling from a once-in-a-century economic catastrophe. That catastrophe was in large part precipitated by the Fianna Fáil golden circle and Anglo Irish Bank. In 2011, people right across the State voted to smash that golden circle and close the door forever on Anglo Irish Bank. They also voted to ensure this would never happen again. Many people invested their trust in the Labour Party to ensure that was the case.
The Siteserv debacle has demonstrated that, in a few short years, Fine Gael has become more Fianna Fáil than Fianna Fáil itself and the Labour Party is as useful as a mudguard on a tortoise. It bends the mind of people of my generation that despite the destruction of this State, both the golden circle and IBRC are back at centre stage. Last week, in response to demands for a commission of investigation into IBRC, the Tánaiste and leader of the Labour Party said she wanted an independent inquiry by a competent authority.
Is the Minister happy that the review, which the Government has proposed, is a genuinely independent inquiry to be carried out by a competent authority, as demanded by his party leader, when it involves KPMG which played a central role in the sale of Siteserv? Is there not a glaring conflict of interest at the heart of this review, which renders it incapable of assuaging the public concerns that now exist with regard to the Government cover-up of this scandal? Will the Government now move to deal with these concerns by establishing a commission of investigation? Will the Minister guarantee that shareholder activity is contained within the scope of this commission of investigation?
What the debate over the past few days indicates is the utter bankruptcy of the Sinn Féin Party with regard to any kind of vision or any kind of economic future for this country or any kind of a coherent sense of what has to happen and what is happening in terms of restoring our economy, creating jobs-----
In Australia.
-----and facing the future in a confident way.
What about the homeless people?
There would be no recovery if we had listened to Sinn Féin and its leader and there certainly would be no recovery-----
They will be recovery for the wealthy.
----- if we were to follow the kind of policies, if one can even call them that, that Sinn Féin advocates.
In respect of the issue Deputy Tóibín raised, the review that has been announced by the Minister for Finance, as he well knows, will cover transactions that resulted in a capital loss to IBRC of at least €10 million during the period concerned, or that are specifically identified by the special liquidator as likely to give rise to potential public concern in respect of the ultimate returns to the taxpayer. The purpose of this review is to determine whether there is evidence of material deficiencies in IBRC's performance in respect of such transactions and related activities and management decisions and whether it can be concluded that the transactions were not commercially sound. The Minister, Deputy Noonan, has asked that the special liquidators carry out this review and provide a report of their findings before 31 August of this year. Following this, the report will be made available to relevant committees of the Oireachtas. The special liquidators are best placed to undertake such a review-----
Will it be independent?
-----thoroughly and expeditiously given their access to all the books and records of IBRC, the resources at their disposal to conduct such a review and the power set out under the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Act which allows the Minister to make this direction in the public interest.
To address potential conflicts of interest, with the agreement of the special liquidators, the retired High Court Judge, Mr. Justice Iarfhlaith O'Neill, is being appointed to monitor any actual or perceived conflicts of interest. This will ensure that the review process is robust. There will never be a situation where a person involved in a transaction will be involved in reviewing that transaction.
This review and report are to serve the public interest in light of recent speculation and they are not being undertaken as a result of any evidence that such deficiencies existed or that transactions were not commercially sound.
Is it going to be independent?
I note that the Minister dodged the question of whether it is going to be independent.
It is.
Despite reams of questions from Opposition Deputies, including my colleague, Deputy Pearse Doherty, regarding the IBRC transactions, the Minister, "hands-off Noonan", refused to reveal very serious concerns expressed by his own officials about the series of IBRC transactions. Vital information was withheld from the Dáil. This Dáil was misled on the IBRC scandal and, to add insult to injury, the Minister comes in here today, representing the Labour Party in government, and attempts to justify the Government cover-up.
Where is the transparency?
Again I ask the Minister will he now put an end to this cover-up by declaring that the Government will set aside a farcical and fatally compromised review and initiate simply an independent inquiry, carried out by a competent authority, as demanded by his party leader last week?
I will ask the Minister one further question and I want him to listen to it because it is an important one. Will he inform the Dáil if members of the Cabinet are aware of any individual who was a shareholder of Siteserv who would have had access to IBRC information around the sale of Siteserv and who would have information around the tender of Irish Water and Siteserv? I will put that question again.
We have that, Deputy.
I will ask it again as it is very important.
Is it very important - what about the kangaroo courts?
Will the Minister inform the Dáil if members of the Cabinet are aware of any individual who was a shareholder of Siteserv who would have had access to IBRC information around the sale of Siteserv and who would have information around the Irish Water-Siteserv tender? I remind the Minister of the importance of this information and the damage done by the closed culture of the Minister for Finance over the past few weeks.
Do not forget the "T" word - "transparency".
It is a straightforward question.
It is a classic tactic of Sinn Féin to level allegations, which have no grounds and for which the Deputy has presented no grounds-----
It is a question.
You sound like P. J. Stone.
-----masquerading as a question. That is a classic tactic of the party.
Hear, hear.
Just answer the question.
There is absolutely no basis for that.
Do members of the Cabinet know?
I am a member of the Cabinet and I am certainly not aware, and I can only answer for myself, but I believe that the manner in which the Deputy-----
Is the Minister confident that other members of the Cabinet do not know?
-----poses questions, a little like the way his party colleagues, including Deputy McDonald, operate in this House, is to make allegations without any foundation-----
The Minister is dancing around the question.
-----leave them on the record and make no effort whatsoever to ensure-----
Deputies
Hear, hear.
----- that there is any kind of a reasonable basis for what is being said.
Is the Minister confident that members of the Cabinet-----
Have any Labour Party TDs ever used parliamentary privilege?
That means-----
Has any Labour Party TD ever used parliamentary privilege?
-----that the Deputies opposite cannot actually be taken seriously in relation to anything they say.
The list of them would be as long as my arm.
Order, please.
If they come in and have something to say, they should have a basis for it. I believe that this inquiry is the correct way to proceed.
You sound like P. J. Stone.
I believe that it will be independent. I believe that it will report by the end of August.
One of the participants is KPMG.
I believe that Mr. Justice Iarfhlaith O'Neill, a retired High Court judge, will ensure that any conflict of interest, or perceived conflict of interest, will be addressed. It would do well for this House for the Deputy opposite to see that the best way to proceed in this kind of matter is to have a robust investigation-----
By an independent authority.
Yes, an independent investigation, and to bring the results in here and pass them to a committee and deal with them at that stage, but that is not the way the Deputies opposite operate.
Does the Cabinet know of individuals?
Thank you.
They operate on the basis of smear and on the basis of groundless allegation-----
Does the Cabinet know?
-----and that is always the way they operate.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
I call Deputy Clare Daly from the Technical Group and I ask for order.
I find it incredibly ironic that a couple of weeks ago those in government were falling over themselves on the Government benches to express their solidarity with Dunnes Stores workers and their horror about the repressive and anti-worker onslaught of the Heffernan family. Yet here we are today with the Government playing the role of Margaret Heffernan in a battle against the country's bus workers. The Government can dress it up any way it wishes. It can try to hide behind the Minister for Transport, Deputy Donohoe, and Eoin O'Duffy's descendants sitting behind the Minister, but the reality is that there is a huge significance in the fact that these workers will be involved in industrial action and protest action on May Day, international workers day, against a decision made by a Government made up of the party founded by James Connolly to defend workers' interests. How far ye have travelled.
Let us be clear. No worker ever wants to go on strike. These bus workers are making a stand not just to defend their terms and conditions but to make a stand against privatisation and in defence of public services. In recent weeks we have had to listen to Government representatives trying to persuade them that this is not about privatisation but about competitive tendering. Guess what? They called it competitive tendering and franchising in Britain but it still ended up with British Rail being handed over to private companies, with prices and subsidies rising and big payouts to shareholders.
The Government has tried to persuade us that it is not its fault and that Fianna Fáil started it. It is right. It certainly did, but the reason this Government is in power is because people thought it would be different, not that it would carry on what Fianna Fáil had started. It has also said it is the fault of the European Union but there is nothing in the EU directive of 2007 which demands competitive tendering. In fact, it specifically states the Government does not have to have it so it should stop trying to con people. Nobody is falling for it.
I ask the Minister and his Government to stop blaming Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann workers for what is going on. How could any right thinking worker believe statements from the Government that their terms and conditions will be protected and that they will not have to transfer when they know that their colleagues in Team Aer Lingus, for example, had not only commitments but significant and supposedly legally binding letters of guarantee that would not happen to them, but it did? How could these people believe the press statements from the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, that their pensions will be maintained when their colleagues from the DAA and Aer Lingus will be assembling in their hundreds tomorrow outside the Aer Lingus annual general meeting because their retirement pensions have been decimated? Would the Government not just come clean and admit that what is going on here is a classic situation that Noam Chomsky described as the standard technique of privatisation - "defund, make sure things don't work, get people angry ... [and then] hand it over to private capital".
The tactic of getting people angry may be one that is practised by the Deputy opposite but it is certainly not one that is practised on this side of the House.
It was when the Deputy was on this side.
The Labour Party would have won an Oscar for being angry when it was in opposition.
It is very regrettable that it now appears there is likely to be a strike this weekend. This is a pity as it will have an impact not just on the workers concerned, which I understand, but also on commuters across the country on a bank holiday weekend. It is regrettable and a great pity that it could not have been avoided and averted.
I am not, contrary to the Deputy's accusation, in the business of blaming people - management, workers or anyone else. I very much hope that some time in the very near future it will be possible for the parties to get around the table and reach an agreement on the issues involved. Deputy Daly, in her normal way, delivered a little lecture to me about trade union solidarity but I know all about the trade unions in the bus company and I know the efforts they have made in recent years, along with management, to transform the company and ensure that it is a good, strong public service company for the people of this city and elsewhere in the country. I am sure it will go from strength to strength, with strong management and strong trade unions. That is what makes a company like Dublin Bus successful.
The broader issue is that in a growing economy like ours the Government wants to ensure that commuters have the best service available to them to get to and from their place of work speedily and efficiently. We are greatly concerned that this industrial action is happening in circumstances where the NTA is carrying out its statutory duty of proceeding with a tendering process that has resulted from its assessment of how best to direct and award tendered PSO bus services in the public interest. The strike action will cause considerable disruption over the weekend to the public across the country and will inevitably damage the company's finances if it goes ahead.
The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Donohoe, confirmed yesterday that following detailed discussions with the bus companies, management was willing to give a commitment that no driver currently employed would be required to transfer to another operator unless he or she wished to do so. It is not a question of transferring to another company and having concerns about terms and conditions of employment in that new company because no worker will be compelled to transfer to a private operator. I appreciate and accept that the unions have other concerns but the best way for them to be resolved is around the table. The unions should sit down and do what they do so well, as they have done in Dublin Bus, and seek to reach agreement in the interests of their own members and of the broader community.
There are so many contradictions that it is hard to know where to start. If Dublin Bus is so great and everything is going so well, why in God's name is the Government breaking it up and undermining it? If the Labour Party believes in a public transport system, why did it stay in Government for four years and stand over a falling subvention for bus services every year up to 2014? The subvention has been cut for the past seven years, four of them on the Labour Party's watch. Why does the Minister's party stand over the crazy situation of reducing the subvention instead of increasing it thereby taking people out of their cars in order to address issues like climate change? Instead, this Government has continued the obscenity of spending €50 million annually to fund the west-link toll bridge company, NTR, not to mention the millions spent on PPPs for roads that are not being used sufficiently. Why is that money not invested in public transport?
The Minister has said that the bus drivers do not need to worry because they will not be transferring but let us look at that commitment, even though nobody believes any commitments this Government makes any more. The Minister expects us to believe that the company is going to carry an extra 10% of workers but at the end of 2019, that will be used against it to argue that the company is uncompetitive. It will be used as a justification for further privatisation, as history has already taught us.
I know that the Minister is familiar with the writings of James Connolly and he will probably attend the memorial service at his grave next week. No doubt Connolly will be doing some turning in that grave when the Labour Party shows up. That aside, Connolly said that "governments in capitalist societies are but committees of the rich to manage the affairs of the capitalist class". I believe he was right and that is exactly what the Labour Party is doing. Why does it not just fold up the red flag and join the boys in blue behind it?
When one prepares for Leader's Questions, the writings of Noam Chomsky are not usually in one's briefing notes. I must congratulate Deputy Daly for being able to bring in quotations from both Chomsky and Connolly but let us look at the real issues that are facing the people of Dublin and the people in the bus company. The Deputy is wrong in her great survey and is all over the shop on the Government. She forgot to mention, because it would not suit her rhetoric, that last year Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann were paid more than €90 million in PSO payments by the taxpayer, over and above the passenger fare income, to provide public bus services. A further €90 million in funding was also provided for new buses and the upgrade of the fleet. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport ---
We have one of the lowest levels of PSO payments in Europe.
The problem is that when people make an allegation and get an answer they do not like they try to stop one answering. The fact is that this Government is investing in public transport and in the bus companies.
We have one of the lowest levels of PSO payments in Europe.
The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport recently put on record his commitment to securing an increase in the subvention provided to the companies to deliver additional services and increase frequency for commuters. The Deputies do not want to hear that either. This year, for the first time since 2008, the PSO contribution for bus and rail services is being maintained at the same level as last year.
After years of cuts.
That is action taken by this Government and by the two parties in government. I am proud of what the Labour Party is doing in government in every respect. I would like to debate with the Deputy at some point her perspective on what Connolly would do today or what he would think we should be doing today. I would not mind having that debate with the Deputy some time to expose the absolute bankruptcy of the position that she and some of her colleagues try to advocate in here every day of the week. We do not have time for that today.
No, we do not.
I look forward to doing it on another occasion.