Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 17 Jun 2015

Vol. 883 No. 1

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

Every Irish family is thinking about the families of the students who were tragically killed in Berkeley yesterday. A further seven students were injured and are receiving care in various hospitals. They were young people who were full of the joys of life. They were talented, outgoing, caring and global in their outlook, as revealed this morning by the principal of one of the students. The bereaved parents are either on their way or have arrived in Berkeley to identify their loved ones. I acknowledge the excellent work being done by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade and his officials in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade who have a long tradition of looking after Irish people abroad when the need arises. They will continue to go beyond the call of duty to support the families of the deceased, Eimear Walsh, Eoghan Culligan, Ashley Donohoe, Niccolai Schuster, Olivia Burke and Lorcan Miller. That is the way it should be.

The US ambassador, Mr. Kevin O'Malley, has described the J1 programme as an essential ingredient of the unique and flourishing relationship between Ireland and the United States. That is why our consul general in San Francisco, Mr. Philip Grant, stated yesterday that people were frozen with shock, disbelief and a profound sadness at what had occurred. In that context, it is important that other students with J1 visas be given access to support and counselling. More than one third of the 8,000 students with J1 visas are in California. I was glad to hear the president of UCD confirm this morning that the university's office in San Francisco was in contact with students.

It is important in the coming period, after the initial shock and sadness pass, that support, including the exceptional supports the Minister and his Department are providing, continue to be offered. It is particularly important that the medical needs of those who were injured and are in hospital be monitored. As a state, we must ensure every possible assistance is given to the families of those who were injured and are in need of medical care. In the weeks and months ahead that support will continue to be necessary. May I take it that the exceptional support given thus far by the Department and the universities will endure over a longer period in order that everyone will be looked after to the greatest extent possible?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for his comments and the proposal he made this morning. The flags of the country are flying at half mast as a mark of respect and sympathy to the families of the bereaved. I hope that on the Order of Business we can hear brief comments from the leaders before suspending the sitting of the House as a mark of respect. When we look at the newspapers this morning, do we not see the faces of our own sons and daughters as they start the great adventure of life? This tragedy could have happened in Cahersiveen, Wexford, Monaghan or anywhere else, but it happened so far way. It impacted on the immediate families, young people and the many thousands of J1 visa holders to whom the Deputy referred.

I thank the Deputy for his comments about the Minister, Deputy Charles Flanagan. The support provided through the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade will continue and specialist counselling and support will be provided, where necessary. I propose to send the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade with responsibility for the diaspora, Deputy Jimmy Deenihan, to Berkeley as a symbol of solidarity with the people of Ireland. This is not in any way intended to overlook the great work being done by the consul general in San Francisco, Mr. Philip Grant, in providing a presence for the Government.

As Deputy Micheál Martin pointed out, the families of the six young people whose lives were tragically taken in this accident are in our thoughts and prayers. With the indulgence of the House, after I propose the Order of Business, we might hear short comments from the leaders and then suspend the sitting of the House for a period of time.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I thank the Taoiseach for his reply and welcome his decision to ask the Minister of State, Deputy Jimmy Deenihan, to travel to the United States to show our solidarity and support, as well as to convey our gratitude to the emergency personnel for their work. As this is not a day on which to have normal engagement, I will leave the questions I raised earlier with the Taoiseach because I know that they will receive the attention they deserve in the light of the exceptional commitment and support shown by the Government and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade thus far. I again thank the Taoiseach for his reply.

The Taoiseach

These efforts will continue. I thank the Deputy for his comments.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I concur with the remarks of Deputy Micheál Martin and the Taoiseach on this terrible tragedy and appreciate that I will have the opportunity to speak about it later. For the present, I want to return to the issue of what the Taoiseach described as the grossly insensitive and appalling treatment of Clerys workers and concession holders. Boston based vulture capitalists, Gordon Brothers, purchased Clerys in 2012 for what was believed to be a sum of €12 million. The sale was made possible because Bank of Ireland wrote off €10 million of Clerys debts and lent the same amount to Gordon Brothers. In July 2013, 80 staff were let go at Clerys, whereas it is believed Gordon Brothers received €14 million in insurance moneys for flood damage. Gordon Brothers separated Clerys' retail business from its property assets by setting up two firms, OCS Operations and OCS Properties, before selling the latter for €29 million to Natrium Limited last week. Natrium Limited was only incorporated on 27 May as a vehicle for the purchase of Clerys' assets. It is a joint venture between Cheney Capital Management and D2 Private. A senior executive at Cheney Capital Management is a former NAMA executive. D2 Private is run by a former KPMG employee. KPMG is also the special liquidator of Clerys. The Taoiseach will recall that KPMG also featured in the IBRC scandal and the sale of that bank's assets. Clerys' retail business, now OCS Operations, was placed in liquidation before the property assets were sold off. There was no provision made for redundancy, holiday pay or other staff related costs such as pensions. There is no fairness for employees and concession holders. This is entirely legal under the Government's watch, but it is also sharp practice. It is clear that the legislation needs to be amended. Deputy Peadar Tóibín has published a Bill to that effect. Will the Taoiseach support it?

The Taoiseach

We referred yesterday to the insensitive treatment of the workers in Clerys, some of whom have given over four decades of loyal service to the company or companies over those years. I understand the Tánaiste is meeting with a number of Clerys workers. The Minister of State, Deputy Nash, in his role as Minister with responsibility for business, has met with the liquidator. He has pointed out the duty and responsibility he has to ensure that representatives of the new company will meet directly with the workers.

Deputy Adams mentioned the Bill prepared by Deputy Tóibín on behalf of Sinn Féin. As I pointed out yesterday, the Government has strengthened the laws in this area with the new Consolidated Companies Act which was enacted last year. It had been going on for about a decade and included over 1,000 amendments. It is up to creditors to seek legal advice on whether the provisions in the updated Companies Act could be relevant to the present position. I have asked the Minister of State, Deputy Nash, to prepare a report on the evolution of the circumstances here. The Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, will consider whether it would be useful or appropriate to have the Company Law Review Group examine this issue, and whether it might be appropriate to make changes in respect of the way this particular situation evolved so as to prevent such a situation recurring. I would temper that, however, by saying that the range of company law can be complex.

This morning, I spoke to somebody who has a commission in Clerys. Some of these companies are able to move their now redundant staff from Clerys to their other premises, but some are not. There is clearly an issue here that needs to be resolved quickly. On the direction of the Tánaiste, the Department of Social Protection has assembled a team of people to meet and advise the now redundant workers on their rights and entitlements, including job seekers' payments and secondary payments such as rent supplement and future options for education, training or alternative employment. However, that does not deal with the issue that happened so insensitively when this meeting was called.

The Deputy is aware that SIPTU has made arrangements for Liberty Hall to be available for the workers today. It is better to have that facility so that everybody can have access to the fullest range of information arising from this. The Department of Social Protection will see to it that there is absolutely no delay in processing payments due under the redundancy protection scheme for workers. That means that they can be paid and claimed quickly, due to the suddenness of this situation.

As regards the Bill prepared by Deputy Tóibín, on behalf of Deputy Adams' party, I think it would be more appropriate for the Company Law Review Group to look at the circumstances. The Minister, Deputy Bruton, will advise on that in due course.

Deputy Gerry Adams

With respect, I do not think it is good enough. The fact is the Taoiseach is dealing with the aftermath of the problem, not the problem itself. The problem is that there is a culture which allows for golden circles and insiders, and which actually foments inequality.

If we look at this, I mentioned D2.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry but we should not get into the area of apportioning blame. This is a private development and we cannot name people-----

Deputy Gerry Adams

I am not blaming anyone.

An Ceann Comhairle

-----or semi-accuse people of wrongdoing.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I have made it clear that there is nothing illegal in what is going on-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you.

Deputy Gerry Adams

-----but D2 investors have included Seán FitzPatrick of Anglo Irish Bank and a former Fine Gael Attorney General. Liquidators KPMG have also worked as auditors for D2 Private, so Clerys' liquidators also worked for the purchaser. Are there not clear conflicts of interest there?

If one scrutinises the companies registration office, it lists a man called Rafael Klotz as a director both of OCS Operations and OCS Properties. This gentleman is also the senior managing director of Gordon Brothers. The Bill put forward by an Teachta Tóibín seeks to correct the anomaly which allows unscrupulous employers not to protect their employees' rights. I am making this accusation: this is a perfect example of a few rogue employers severing the legal personality of a company from its directors, thus protecting them from the liability of business obligations to its employees in the case of tactical insolvency. This is a case of tactical insolvency.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy, but we are over time.

Deputy Gerry Adams

It should be remembered that Gordon Brothers left Dublin after shafting the concession holders and workers with an extraordinary profit of €19 million. It is all about golden circles, insiders and networks within networks. It is all legal under the company law which this Government introduced. I am asking the Taoiseach to commit to allowing the passage of legislation to rectify this matter before he leaves office.

The Taoiseach

As I said, the Government introduced a strengthened company law Act last year, which was in gestation over the last decade when a number of governments were in office. I do commit that the Company Law Review Group, which is headed by an eminent person, should examine this issue to see whether it is appropriate that some changes be made to the law, as enacted, in order to prevent this kind of situation arising again. I must stress that company law, in its entirety, is complex. I do undertake, however, that the Company Law Review Group, under the direction of the Minister, Deputy Bruton, following the report by the Minister of State, Deputy Nash, will examine the situation and will report to the House on that.

Deputy Tom Fleming

On behalf of the Dáil Technical Group, I wish to express our sincere sympathy and condolences to the parents, relatives and friends of the victims of the tragedy in Berkeley, California. Our thoughts and prayers are very much with those people at this time, as are the thoughts of the nation.

Primary education is under-staffed, under-funded and under-resourced. We have the largest class sizes in the EU. Every day approximately 550,000 children receive their education in the largest classes in Europe. Some 85% of Irish children are in classes greater than the European average of 21, and one in five is in a class of more than 30 children. Distressingly, fewer than 10% of Irish children are in classes which other EU countries call the norm. The consequences are obvious. Simply put, not every child in this State is getting the attention or time they deserve. The knock-on effect is twofold. Our teachers are not maximising their abilities and our children are losing ground through a system that fails to properly resource and nurture talent.

Irish teachers are among the most productive in the EU considering that they teach much bigger classes. Irish teachers have four times more students in their classes than their European counterparts. I am sure that the Taoiseach, as a former teacher himself, would acknowledge that we have to stand up for education. This means three things, namely, smaller classes, better funding and support for principals and teachers.

In a world that is changing rapidly, including constant changes to the needs of industry, we must ensure that our children have the proper foundations for their education. We need to be more ambitious for our children, in addition to acknowledging the transformative nature of properly funded education. At all times, education has the ability to break down the inequalities that exist in society.

Investment at that stage in a child's life will pay dividends in the long term both for the children and the general economy in future.

Will the Taoiseach and the Government set out a plan to reduce class sizes to the EU average, starting this year and to be fully achieved in a reasonable timeframe, let us say, over the lifetime of the next Government? I appeal to the Government not to forget to reverse the staffing cuts to pupils with special needs. They are not proper in a civilised society and it was certainly abnormal in the context of international standards to allow that to happen. Will the Government support school teachers by doubling the release time for teaching principals, paying the outstanding parity awards and building a middle management tier as well as ensuring a structure for primary and secondary level schools on parity?

The Taoiseach

I thank Deputy Fleming for his comments. Someone once said that the future of civilisation is being written in the classrooms. There is no question of the importance and priority being attached to education. Deputy Fleming mentioned three aspects, namely, smaller classes, better funding and support for teachers. We do not have all the money that we would like to invest in the education system, in primary, secondary, third level and fourth level. However, I believe serious progress is being made. It is true there are classes with too many pupils in many places in the country. On the other side, there are classes with too few pupils because of the drop in numbers in some of the schools. If we were to equalise them throughout the country we would probably have an average but that is not physically possible.

It is important to say that the programme and strategy set out by the Minister for Education and Skills is to eliminate all the prefabs over a period. The next bundle of schools has already been sent out to the public private partnership process to build and provide accommodation. The new facilities being provided for schools, particularly in the private sector, are exceptional, as is the impact of the summer works scheme, which allows great work to be done in a short period with necessary improvements in places throughout the country.

It is equally important for us to understand that there are few influences on the life and mind of a young person like a teacher who has the interest, motivation and capacity to inspire young minds. In many of the places I visit throughout the country in industry and in business we see our young people who have come through the education system. They are the envy of so many others. While the situation is not perfect, it is one that allows for people to reach their best. For those who, for one reason or another, have a challenge it is necessary to continue to supply special needs assistants and resource teachers.

Opportunity is given to schools to have greater devolved power to make choices in the subjects they wish to teach, be it short courses in secondary schools or whatever. There have been changes in the curriculum. The voluntary movement of CoderDojo, for instance, enables young children of six and seven years of age to understand the writing of code that drives the computers that change the frontiers up ahead. This is evident in many places throughout the country. The Minister for Education and Skills will consider the question of class sizes in the context of the forthcoming budget in October. These decisions cost money. I remember on the first occasion I took classes many years ago I think I had 65 in two classes. In such circumstances it is an impossibility to do the job properly, as Deputies will know.

I would like to think that we can have a system where we have competition within the class. Peer competition is important. In the context of the forthcoming budget the Minister will look at the question and the opportunity that might present itself to deal with the question Deputy Fleming has raised.

Deputy Tom Fleming

I welcome the Taoiseach's positive approach to addressing class sizes. This is further to the work of Deputy Finian McGrath, who informed me a minute ago that in his talks with the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, she has also acknowledged the anomaly referred to. I am sure the Taoiseach will give her full support in sorting out the exercise and initiative to get that under way in the forthcoming announcements and budgets, etc.

Primary education is the foundation of the education system and the bedrock on which everything else is built. It is imperative that we give our primary school children a proper chance. No matter how much investment we deliver further up in the education system, it will never solve the problems that are sown by the short-changing and under-funding of the primary school system and our younger children. It is evident in many parts of our primary school system that Government funding does not cover ancillary costs, such as heating, lighting, information and communications technology, offices, etc. In many cases the parents and principals at local level have to sacrifice many things to make up the deficit - classroom equipment falls under this area as well - and that is not right. Vital equipment is being short-funded and this places considerable stress on the system, on parents, naturally, and on the principal as well. On top of this we have voluntary boards of management.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy.

Deputy Tom Fleming

They need more training and supports to bring up efficiency levels etc. It is only right that they can perform their job to satisfaction. The situation is also a deterrent to many people in respect of their participation in boards of management. They are reluctant to get involved. It is only fair that we bring them along on equal terms in the improvement of our education system.

I will make a comparison with Northern Ireland.

An Ceann Comhairle

No, Deputy. You are way over time. I have given you a fair bit of latitude.

Deputy Tom Fleming

A principal of a three or four-teacher school gets 16 days a year to carry out his administrative, managerial and leadership roles, which is totally inadequate. In the North, for example, a teaching principal in a primary school gets one day a week free of class teaching to do the work. We need to give some concessions on this side of the Border.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Fleming has pointed out a number of issues that are of importance. Boards of management are the employers of the teachers. In most cases they are purely voluntary people. If difficulties arise in school situations it can be very trying for boards of management to make decisions to sort them out. Of course, people who work in the administration for particular schools work exceptionally hard for lower wages. However, I believe that the Minister has set out a clear strategy, particularly in respect of the primary system, both in respect of the support for teachers and support for schools. I acknowledge the exceptional commitment of so many people who fund-raise and do work in schools for sport, music, choirs and so on as a compliment while their children are moving through that system. I also recognise that where the State has been in a position to provide new and proper facilities for the primary system there are exceptional buildings, but that is all they are: buildings. More important is the potential and the opportunity for the teachers and the teaching staff to really bring their students on and bring out the best in them, irrespective of what level that is.

I go to schools that are twinned with schools in the United States, Australia, New Zealand or wherever. I see children given the opportunity to contact their peers in other countries to talk about their music, culture, sport and what it is they do. This gives them, as part of the Irish nation, an understanding of our place in the world.

The Minister, Deputy O'Sullivan, will meet with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, and the Minister for Finance in the preparation for the forthcoming budget. I have no doubt that the issues Deputy Fleming has raised will feature as part of those discussions and I hope that they can be progressed somewhat.