Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 9 Jul 2015

Vol. 886 No. 4

National Minimum Wage (Low Pay Commission) Bill 2015: Instruction to Committee

Minister of State at the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation (Deputy Gerald Nash)

I move:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 177, Standing Order 131 is modified to permit an instruction to the Committee to which the National Minimum Wage (Low Pay Commission) Bill 2015 may be recommitted in respect of certain amendments, for which it has power to make provision in the Bill in relation to:

(a) the Workplace Relations Act 2015 and employment rights and equality enactments, which are of a technical and drafting nature, which are required to ensure that the transitional arrangements and new adjudication and redress structures arising from the establishment of the new simplified two-tier adjudication structures are legally robust; as a result it will be necessary to introduce amendments to sections 76, 80, 81, 83 and 84 of the Act;

(b) these amendments to the aforementioned sections of the Workplace Relations Act 2015 will also result in the requirement to make consequential amendments to the Redundancy Payments Act 1967, the Unfair Dismissals Act 1977, the Protection of Employees (Employer's Insolvency) Act 1984, the Employment Equality Act 1998 and the Equal Status Act 2000 and the Terms of Employment (Information) Act 1994;

(c) technical and drafting amendments to sections 1, 2, 28, 40, 41, 53, 74, Schedule 3 and Schedule 4 of the Workplace Relations Act 2015;

(d) introduce a number of additional provisions in the Act to provide for a range of technical and transitional issues consequential on the transfer of functions from the Director of the Equality Tribunal to the Director of the Workplace Relations Commission (WRC) - these amendments provide, for example, for the transfer of property, rights and liabilities etc. which were vested in the Director of the Equality Tribunal to the Director of the WRC upon commencement of sections 83 and 84 of the Workplace Relations Act 2015; and

(e) the Freedom of Information Act 2014 to ensure that the exemption from the FOI legislation which currently applies to the Equality Tribunal insofar as it relates to its mediation functions will be extended to the WRC upon commencement of the Workplace Relations Act 2015; the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform has agreed to the extension of the current exemption to ensure that it will cover records of the WRC Mediation Service insofar as it applies to its functions in relation to the resolution of complaints and disputes on a voluntary basis under both equality and employment enactments;

and to change the title of the Bill and make other consequential amendments required to take account of the changes above."

Deputies will recall that I indicated on Second Stage that I would introduce these amendments on Report Stage. I understand that Deputies have received an information note setting out the purpose of these amendments.

As Deputies will be aware, my colleague, the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, has been implementing a programme of reform of the State's employment rights and industrial relations procedures and institutions since 2012. His aim is to establish a world-class workplace relations service and employment rights framework by streamlining the existing mechanisms and establishing a simpler structure while building upon the recognised strengths of the existing systems.

The reform programme is at an advanced stage and the legislation that will give statutory effect to these reforms, namely, the Workplace Relations Act 2015, was signed into law by the President on 20 May. The Minister has announced that the WRC will commence on 1 October 2015.

The effect of the Workplace Relations Act, when it is commenced, will be to replace the five existing workplace relations bodies with two. The Labour Relations Commission, the National Employment Rights Authority, the Equality Tribunal and the first instance functions of the Employment Appeals Tribunal will be replaced by the new Workplace Relations Commission. The appeals functions of the Employment Appeals Tribunal will be incorporated into an expanded Labour Court. The cost of running these bodies will be reduced through the better use of technology and shared services, staff reductions, the elimination of duplication and the centralisation of administration and case management services. This rationalisation will deliver a much better service to end users, including employers and employees, at a reduced cost to the State.

Significant progress was achieved in advance of the enactment of the Workplace Relations Act 2015 in the technological, structural, administrative and staffing changes required to underpin the workplace relations reform programme. I will mention the measures that have been already put in place. The Equality Tribunal has been transferred from the Department of Justice and Equality to the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation in anticipation of becoming part of the Workplace Relations Commission. A single contact portal and a post registration unit have been established to deal with all aspects of case management as far as complaints are concerned. A single workplace relations complaint form and e-complaint facility has been launched. A single workplace relations website has been designed and launched. A single adjudication and appeals decisions database has been designed and launched. An early resolution service has been established. The selection process for an external panel of adjudicators and an accredited training programme for adjudicators has been completed. The selection process for two new deputy chairs of the court has been completed. Enhanced technologies and business processes, including the completion of the procurement and design of a customer relationship management solution, have been implemented.

Work will proceed at an accelerated pace over the coming months to make progress with a comprehensive programme of work to ensure our workplace relations services are business-ready for establishment day. This includes the preparation of regulations relating to critical procedures, the finalisation of arrangements for the introduction of compliance notices and fixed charge notices in support of inspection activities, the transitioning of e-business, the phasing out of information and communications technology systems in line with the rationalisation of services and the implementation of the proposed customer relationship management solution to support complaints and adjudication management. Key senior management positions will be fully aligned with the new structure and processes.

As Deputies are aware, the Workplace Relations Act is complex. When it is commenced, its effect will be to replace the five existing workplace relations bodies with a new simplified two-tier structure. The Act will also result in the establishment of new structures for the resolution and adjudication of complaints and disputes across the entire corpus of employment rights and equality legislation. As a result of the introduction of these new structures, it has been necessary to make consequential amendments to 24 primary Acts, 34 specified parts or sections of Acts and numerous statutory instruments. As part of the technical and complex drafting process, it became clear following the enactment of the Act as certain technical legal elements were worked through that a number of technical and drafting amendments would be necessary to ensure the smooth running of the new structures. As a consequence, it is essential that these amendments be effected before the commencement of the legislation and the establishment of the new structures on 1 October 2015. It is proposed that the aforementioned amendments to the Workplace Relations Act 2015 will be inserted into the National Minimum Wage (Low Pay Commission) Bill 2015 as a new Part 3 of that Bill.

Deputy Dara Calleary

While we will not be opposing this motion, we do not feel it is a good way of doing business. I am loth to criticise the work that is under way because I am aware that not enough officials are available. I do not want to rain on the Minister of State's parade when I point out that work on the reform of workplace relations got under way in 2010. The Walsh report was commissioned at that time. Given that this process has been under way for so long, and in light of the amount of work that has been done, it is not good that changes to a Bill that has just been signed into law are being introduced at this stage. It is the wrong way to treat the House. This Bill has been already debated on Second and Committee Stages. I accept that the Minister of State indicated on Second Stage that this approach would have to be taken. It is not a fair way of doing things. I appreciate that some of the issues in this regard are outside the control of the Minister of State. I am saying this for future reference. The introduction of these motions as a way of making new legislation is becoming a bit of a habit for Governments. It is a feature of this Government, in particular, which is not what was promised in the so-called democratic revolution of 2011. Although we will support these important and significant changes, I am keen to put it on the record of the House that this is not a good way of doing parliamentary business.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Mar a dúirt an tAire Stáit, reachtaíocht theicniúil agus chasta atá i gceist anseo. Mar a dúirt sé roimhe seo, is reachtaíocht uaillmhianach é. Glacaim leis go mbeidh leasuithe riachtanach roimh lá tosaithe an choimisiúin. Aontaím leis an Teachta Calleary nár cheart go mbeadh na leasuithe ag teacht chugainn sa tslí seo. Ní hé seo an chéad uair atá sé seo feicthe agam. Ba cheart go dtiocfadh na leasuithe go léir le chéile. Aontaím go gcaithfear iad a dhéanamh. Tá mé ag iarraidh go mbeimid in ann tosú leis an díospóireacht ar an mBille um Pá Íosta Náisiúnta chomh luath agus is féidir.

Deputy John Halligan

I would like to share time with Deputy Paul Murphy.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy John Halligan

I welcome the Bill, which I have read in detail. I am unhappy about the way the amendments have been presented to us here today. As has been previously said, it is not a proper way to do business in a democracy. I welcome the Bill, however. It has been said that low pay is endemic and entrenched in the Irish economy. Recent data from the OECD showed that the prevalence of low pay in Ireland is among the highest in the OECD. The relevant figure is 21.8%. It is interesting that a report on equality in Ireland that was recently published by Ellen Zentner of Morgan Stanley economists found that the United States has the highest proportion of low pay. This is very interesting. The relevant figure for the United States is 25%. It is shocking that Ireland is in second place with a figure of 21.8%. The figure for the United Kingdom is 21%. The figures for Switzerland, Finland and some of the Nordic countries are way below 10%.

The Irish Congress of Trade Unions recently told an Oireachtas committee that low-paid workers are more likely to suffer from a range of unfair employment practices that adversely effect their ability to earn a living. Following the Dunnes Stores strike over zero-hour contracts and the low levels of pay associated with such contracts, many of us are concerned about what kind of jobs and work practices we will be facing in Ireland over the coming years. It has to be accepted that a new breed of employers is expecting workers to work variable hours with uncertain contracts and on low pay. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions told the Oireachtas committee that any legislation has to include provisions that ensure employers cannot frustrate attempts to improve working conditions, such as efforts to establish employment regulation orders in sectors such as hotels and catering businesses. It is interesting that the Central Statistics Office has said that approximately 135,000 people are classed as part-time under-employed workers. These people would like to take up full-time work. It worries me that this Bill is providing for a couple of little get-out clauses that will allow employers to find a way out of paying what they should be paying in terms of low pay.

It is interesting that I have mentioned Switzerland because yesterday I attended a meeting attended by the Swiss ambassador. When I asked him a few questions about the Swiss economy, he made the interesting point that the payment of good wages is the best solution for dealing with poverty. This is why I mentioned that the figure of 10% in Switzerland is one of the lowest in the world. The Minister of State and I are aware that there is a cost factor for our economy if we keep people on low pay. The cost factor is huge if we keep people on unemployment benefit because it restricts what they can spend money on. People on low pay are exactly the same - they are restricted in how they can spend. There is a draw on the social welfare system because people have to get family income supplement, etc. There is also a draw on the health service because people need medical cards, etc. There is a huge pull out of the economy. It has been found in some countries that if people are paid reasonable wages, they can pay tax and contribute back into the economy. This can increase spending in the economy.

If we have hundreds of thousands of people who are restricted to barely surviving, just buying food and barely able to pay their television licence, electricity and gas bills, we are not contributing to growth in the economy. Everybody knows we need external investment and internal spending. However, we are putting a cap on hundreds of thousands of people who wish to, and can, contribute to the economy if they are given a chance to do so. The best way to do that is to give people a reasonable rate. It might be a cost in the short term, but employers and Governments should see that it could contribute to the coffers of whatever Government is in power as well as to small and medium sized businesses and enterprises, because people will have spending power. I realise the Minister of State means well, and I will not vote against the Bill as it is a big step forward. However, the position in Ireland at present, with 21.8% on low pay, is appalling. It is shocking that we are just behind America, and we all know how some employers can treat their workers in America. We are at nothing if we do not ensure in this Bill that employers will pay a decent wage.

I would like to have more time to speak on this but I must conclude. My determination of a decent wage is not a minimum wage. Again, we must look to the Nordic countries, where people talk about a liveable wage. This is not rhetoric from the left that people should be paid a liveable wage. There is good, sound economic reasoning for giving people a liveable wage. The best way to take people out of poverty is to give them work, but they must be given a decent, liveable wage that they can spend and with which they can have a quality of life. If the vast majority of people who are on low incomes, unemployed or just above the threshold of being impoverished had the chance of a job with a liveable wage, does anybody think they would not take it? Of course they would in order to improve their position. That is how we must go in the medium and long term. As the Swiss ambassador said yesterday, the best way of dealing with poverty is to give people a decent rate of pay. It lifts them out of poverty and helps the economy.

Deputy Paul Murphy

I will make substantive points on the issue of low pay and on the amendments in the discussion on Report Stage.

We will not oppose the motion. The Anti-Austerity Alliance supported the Workplace Relations Bill and the Minister of State claims that these changes are necessary arising from that legislation. However, there is a point at issue about parliamentary procedure and the right of the Dáil to scrutinise legislation properly. There is a right and democratic way of doing things and a wrong way of doing them. This is another example, although a less cynical one, of what we saw last week with the Environment (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, where unrelated amendments were tabled at the last minute, thus preventing proper scrutiny. In this case, I do not believe it is done to prevent proper scrutiny, but because it is the quickest way of doing it. That does not herald some type of democratic revolution, or fulfil the democratic revolution that was heralded.

There are questions for the Minister of State as to why this was not foreseen when the Workplace Relations Bill was debated. If there had been proper parliamentary scrutiny at that stage, the fact that these other changes were required could have been recognised. Why could we not have a Workplace Relations (Amendment) Bill which could go through the proper parliamentary process and the proper Stages of scrutiny? It is not good practice and is fundamentally undemocratic to cut short the ability of the Dáil to examine legislative changes.

Question put and agreed to.