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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Jul 2015

Vol. 887 No. 2

Leaders' Questions

Irish Water has only collected 46% of expected revenue despite bills falling due in the past two months. Only 43% of the expected customer base of 1.5 million people have paid up. If that rate of payment continues, the Government will take in approximately €120 million, while it will have paid out approximately €130 million. The water conservation grant will amount to €25 million and another €25 million will be due in interest repayments on the loans taken out to pay for the installation of water meters. On that basis, the Government will lose at least €35 million in revenue as a result of the imposition of the tax. It is probably the first Government in history to lose money having introduced a tax. That is extraordinary.

In addition, the capacity of Irish Water to pass the EUROSTAT test will be in severe jeopardy, notwithstanding the fact that the Government has cooked the books by shifting approximately €60 million of Irish Water's spending onto the local government fund. Registration confirms that one will get the €100 conservation grant. It was confirmed this morning by Irish Water that no proof of payment of one's bill is required. Essentially, if one does not pay one's bill, one will be rewarded with a €100 conservation grant.

One could not make it up.

One will get paid for not paying one's water bill.

Will you take it Mattie or will you send it back?

That is extraordinary. Why would one pay it at all if that is the case?

It is kindergarten stuff.

Deputy Mattie McGrath should stay quiet and let Deputy Martin put his question.

Why would one pay the water charge if one gets the €100 in any event? Those who have paid must be looking askance at the situation having learned of it this morning. Even if one is not an Irish Water customer, one will get the €100. If one does not pay one's bill, one will get the €100. Could the Taoiseach explain the reason a person would get a €100 conservation grant if he or she does not even pay his or her water charges bill? Does the Taoiseach accept that the policy has failed? The figures reveal that. After 14 U-turns on this entire saga, it is time to call a halt and to abolish the charges and this whole operation and edifice. It is a moment of high farce that the Government has now landed us in and it is time to go back to the drawing board and start afresh.

You landed us in it.

I thought Deputy Martin might raise Irish Water today. I very much thank the 675,000 households who have paid their Irish Water bill. That represents approximately 2 million people in the country. Deputy Martin is still taking the same line as he always did, namely, to leave things as they were within an official system, both for water and for wastewater. The very fact that Irish Water has been set up, admittedly with challenges, allows for the entity to be able to borrow and to invest-----

-----to fix all the problems that exist and to provide a proper water system and wastewater system for this country for the next 20 to 50 years. Deputy Martin does not seem to have a connection with a particular section of Irish people. They are people who have paid for their water for the past 50 years in group water schemes all over the country, who were very glad to get it. Many schemes were inferior and they are now in a position to be able to rectify them and update them.

The Government is spending less.

They too will get their €100 incentive from the Department of Social Protection once they register as users. Deputy Martin does not seem to recognise that at all.

I have listened to many left wing people talk about the issue recently. It is the same old story. They want to pay for nothing, make no contribution, and expect someone else to do it for them.

Is that you, Mattie?

That is not true. That is a distortion.

The Government has been very clear about this. The charge is €3 per week or €1.15 per week. That is a very modest and fair contribution.

Could the Taoiseach rewind and answer the question?

Deputy Martin's party left this country in an unprecedented mess.

How about the question the Taoiseach was asked?

He is the last person who should come in here and talk about the situation.

Would Members please stay quiet?

Am I the last person?

It is not Deputy Cowen's question.

The Taoiseach is directing his answer at me now.

He might be leader some day but in the meantime he should allow Deputy Martin to lead.

We want the Taoiseach to answer the question he was asked.

I do not accept Deputy Martin's assertion.

Would Deputy Mattie McGrath ever stay quiet?

This is the start of a billing process. People have received their first bills. They are entitled to factor that into the budgetary strategy for their households. The Government did not increase income tax in the way Deputy Martin wants to do now. Unlike other utilities, no reminders have yet issued to households but that will happen. Irish Water is still developing its customer database. People might be included in the database who are being billed unnecessarily.

Yes, a lot of people have been.

Including deceased people.

As Deputy Martin is well aware, there are always teething problems. Approximately 182,000 properties in Irish Water's database are holiday homes and vacant dwellings. It is likely that some people are as yet unaware of their liability. I expect that people will continue to contribute.

One cannot pay from the grave.

Deputy Cowen is aware that in Castlerea and south Roscommon, 11,300 people had boil water notices lifted from their households in the past two weeks.

That would have happened anyway.

The people of Castlerea had been operating under a boil water notice since November 2009. Irish Water was set up to be able to borrow independently and invest in fixing and rectifying problems due to the situation in Castlerea and in other places around the country.

At a higher rate.

The point made by Deputy Martin on EUROSTAT is a matter for EUROSTAT, which is completely independent in the way it does its analysis of the situation in so far as Irish Water is concerned and it will make its decision in its own good time.

I asked the Taoiseach a simple question and as usual he did everything but answer it. Could he explain why a person would get a €100 conservation grant even if that person does not pay his or her water bill?

To conserve water.

It is a very simple question. It is a question that is connected to people who pay because they are wondering why one would bother paying under the regime the Government has established.

Why did they pay?

Under that regime, one gets €100 if one does not bother paying one's bill. The bottom line is that given the rate of compliance, as of now the Government is losing money as a result of the introduction of the water charge. That is a fact. The Government has been forced into U-turn after U-turn.

Could Deputy Martin ask a question please?

The net result is that following the introduction of the water tax, at the end of the year the Government will be down by between €35 million and €50 million. It is some feat to introduce a tax and lose money as a result of it. Only stubbornness and pig-headedness is driving the Government on in terms of trying to create the impression that all is well, but if the Taoiseach wants to pretend that all is well, he can do so.

Deputy Martin is over time. Would he please adhere to the Chair?

I will not try to convince the Taoiseach that the situation is one of high farce right now in terms of how people look at the edifice that has been created and the extraordinarily farcical situation whereby if someone does not pay his or her bill, he or she will get a conservation grant.

The Deputy has made his point.

One could not make it up, in terms of administration or operating any taxation system.

The Deputy fails to recognise that the sum of €100 is not just an incentive for people to contribute but also a conservation grant.

The Deputy's philosophy has nothing to do with conservation. When billions of euro were sloshing around in the economy, Fianna Fáil had no concept of the conservation of money in the interests of the people.

That is all the Taoiseach can say.

The Taoiseach was promising 4.5% growth in 2007. He, too, has questions to answer.

Fianna Fáil squandered the livelihoods, careers, opportunities and ambitions of thousands of people, some of whom are now in America, Australia, Britain and elsewhere. Deputy Micheál Martin and his party, with a philosophy under which there was no attempt at conservation, are directly responsible. I expect people to continue to contribute to building an entity to deal with the many problems we have with the quality of water, the extent of wastewater going into lakes, rivers and seas, resulting in the loss of blue flags, and issues affecting the hospitality sector.

Deputy Barry Cowen is sighing. He does not believe the Taoiseach.

He should quit while he is ahead.

The Government has invested less money during the past three years than was invested during the previous three.

The red flag is up on the Government.

The Government has spent €780 million.

Where is the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly?

That is why Irish Water was established. Deputy Micheál Martin knows that for many years the average investment has been approximately €300 million. It should be €600 million at least. That is why Irish Water was established. Fianna Fáil's philosophy was to approve water charges which were much higher than those the Government has introduced. It then abandoned ship when others said they would be populist about it.

The Government is spending less and wasting money.

Where is fiscal competency now?

The party is over.

While there are challenges, I expect the people to see the benefit of having an entity such as Irish Water and contribute to it. The charges are €1.15 and €3 per week and the sum of €100 to which the Deputy referred is a conservation grant for people who register online.

Will the Taoiseach answer the question he was asked?

Tell it to the people.

He will quit when he is behind.

Will everyone stay quiet for one minute, settle down and let Deputy Mary Lou McDonald make her point? We all want to hear.

I am sure they do.

The Deputies must be wound up before they come in. Do they wind themselves up or what?

The Taoiseach does it for us.

There is something in the water.

(Interruptions).

It is the same little group. It must be the area in which they sit. They should change places.

The air conditioning might be causing it.

In a major blow to the Government’s misguided water charges policy, Irish Water has finally revealed that it managed to collect from only 43% of households who had been targeted to pay. This is despite the extraordinary lengths to which the Government has gone to force them to pay. In the face of widespread rejection of the water tax, the Government had resorted to coercion, or so it thought. This week it is ramming through legislation to pickpocket the incomes of already hard-pressed citizens to prop up the discredited Irish Water quango. Although the Taoiseach had hoped it would frighten a significant number of people to pay the bills they had received, he was wrong - it did not happen. This represents more than a challenge to him, his Government and Irish Water. He has been told in no uncertain terms that his water tax is going nowhere. He has been told that families across the State are not being cowed by threats from the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, or the Taoiseach's bribes.

Who are the 57% who have not paid? They are not people who, as the Taoiseach asserts, do not want to pay for anything, an insult he regularly levels at families.

The Deputy paid.

In my experience, they are a mixture of people who will not pay on principle because they already pay through general taxation; they believe water is a human right and oppose the privatisation of such a vital service. As I have explained to the Taoiseach many times, there are many families who cannot pay, who do not have the €3 or €1 per week about which he is so glib. They do not have it because they have been screwed by the Government in the past four years and have nothing left to give.

The Taoiseach thought he had got away with it. He thought the cosmetic changes the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, had introduced last year would thwart the anti-water charges campaign, but he was wrong. The popular citizens' campaign against this unjust tax has not gone away. If anything, it has grown in strength and support. Last week the trade unions reaffirmed their strong opposition to water charges. Did the Taoiseach hear? The right to water campaign will stage another major public demonstration on 29 August. I hope Fianna Fáil will be there, having had a conversion to an anti-water charges campaign.

(Interruptions).

Will the Taoiseach do something refreshing and out of character? Will he end the sorry saga that is Irish Water? Will he, finally, acknowledge that his Government's efforts to bribe, coerce and intimidate families into complying with his water tax have failed? Will he return to the drawing board and abolish these charges?

Sometimes the Deputy amuses me, when she is clearly in competition with other Opposition parties to generate publicity for her party. She is a member of a party which proclaimed that all of its members were legislators and that they would pay the water contributions. Then, when she was caught out by Deputy Paul Murphy, further out on the left wing, she decided it would be a populist measure to oppose water charges.

The soldiers of destiny.

She was followed by the Soldiers of Destiny who said they favoured water charges but thought they should be abolished.

We oppose the mess the Government created.

The only people who can be trusted are the Independents.

The consequence would be increased income tax. Yesterday I gave Deputy Mary Lou McDonald full marks for her mathematics when she was dividing the time allocated for the amendments to a particular Bill. Irish Water has received 46% of expected revenue, not 43%.

Some 43% of people paid.

The Taoiseach had three weeks to get ready and is still getting it wrong.

Again, I thank the 675,000 householders who have made their contributions. Given that a number of people have received bills only in the very recent past, obviously, we expect more people to contribute to what is a very important entity. We have been very clear about the charges and I do not say this glibly, as the Deputy remarked. The charge is €1.15 or €3 per week, which is a very modest contribution, fixed until 2019. People know exactly where we are headed, namely, towards the provision of clean water and proper wastewater treatment facilities around the country. The Government has not increased income taxes, as Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin want to do.

The Government has introduced approximately 40 new taxes during the past three years, including property tax and water tax. The Taoiseach should read George Orwell again. He is the man for the Government.

I was interested in Deputy Mary Lou McDonald’s comment on this issue on 2 February when she was asked how Sinn Féin would pay for water services and facilities around the country. Her answer was very clear. She said, "We would be looking at all forms of formula that would achieve that." I am not sure what it means.

It sounds like something the Taoiseach would say.

As far as the Government is concerned, Irish Water has received 46% of its expected revenue from 675,000 households, representing 2 million people. The contributions are very fair. The Government has been clear that water will not be cut off, that people will not be sent to prison, that the contribution is very modest and that it is for a very good cause for all the people and the country for the next 30 to 50 years. I hope and expect more people to continue to pay their bills, register and contribute to a fundamentally important entity for the future.

I hate to break it to the Taoiseach but he is going to be sorely disappointed if that is his sincere hope. He has comprehensively failed to win the support of the people for the introduction of this charge. What he has left them with is a quango of enormous proportions, controversies around consultancy fees and so on, meters in the ground that cost a fortune and which are not being used. There is lead piping hither, thither and yon, which represents a threat to people’s health.

What would Sinn Féin do? Its solution is to ignore it.

He has done this against a backdrop-----

Sinn Féin would know about lead in piping.

-----of endless austerity.

Come on lads and get the lead out.

The Taoiseach and his cronies in government have-----

I would not go there.

Sinn Féin knows all about that.

Will Members stay quiet?

-----stuck their hands in the pockets of working people.

(Interruptions).

Sinn Féin would know about lead in piping.

I expect more from Ministers and for them to lead by example. It is a hard enough job to sit here and keep order. When I have Ministers heckling, however, it is a big problem.

Will you please finish your point, Deputy McDonald? Your time is up.

Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle.

The Government’s strategy has been to buy off one half of the population with its €100 water conservation grant - wink, wink - and then intimidate the other half with a threat of attachment orders, court proceedings and sticking its hands into their pensions, welfare and wages. Newsflash for the Taoiseach: none of that has worked.

Newsflash for you, Deputy. Your time is up.

(Interruptions).

Up to 57% of those due to pay have not paid and will not pay. More of them cannot pay.

How does the Deputy know?

It is time for the Taoiseach to have a moment of clarity, even vision, and see the wood from the trees. He must understand that this charge is going nowhere. In the public interest, what the Taoiseach needs to do is to scrap it, not to make smart or condescending comments about my mathematics. His own mathematics are not too hot. Those with great mathematical skills are lone parents, however.

What about Gerry?

The lone parents the Taoiseach has ripped off and who now he glibly claims can find the €3 which they do not have.

Deputy, will you please resume your seat?

He must abolish the charge.

I think I heard Deputy McDonald say recently that it would have been an interesting experiment for Ireland to have followed Syriza’s example in Greece. Am I correct? This is where she wants to place our country and our people, yet she comes in here talking about pensioners and ordinary people.

The Government put the boot into them.

The interesting thing would have been to see the Taoiseach negotiate. We have yet to see that.

The Deputy’s philosophy is to allow what has happened in Greece to happen here.

It is your German pals in the Bundestag that have done that.

Deputy McDonald has made her point about looking at all the formulae. Let me repeat again. The reason Irish Water has been set up is to provide proper and quality water facilities for our people and proper wastewater treatment plants-----

And for bonuses.

It has played a blinder so far.

It is to sell it off.

That is an outrageous comment, Deputy Ellis.

That is what we are paying for. It is privatisation.

Up to 675,000 households have registered and paid their contributions. That represents 2 million people.

What about the 2 million who have not?

Many people have only received their bills in the recent past. I expect they will contribute and pay their bills, as many more will in the future.

They are all past their sell-by date.

The use of meters is to determine the extent of water use. Second, they will be able to identify where they are completely inadequate facilities, either leaks or the consequences of lead pipes into houses.

There is no scientific basis for that.

There is not. The Deputy should talk to the senior officials in Irish Water.

Whether Deputy McDonald likes it or does not want to recognise it, water conservation is a very important part of what we have to do.

Wait until they come after your own.

The Taoiseach should toddle over to the audio-visual room at 3 p.m.

For years, taxpayers have been paying for inadequate facilities with 50% of water supplies leaking into the ground. However, Sinn Féin does not want to recognise that either. The extent of investment for years to come will be of a nature that will fix these leaks and inadequate facilities while providing proper water services for town, country, business, industry and consumer. Again, I thank those 675,000 householders who have contributed.

It is a terrific success. Will the Taoiseach pull the other one?

The Taoiseach should take this to Carnegie Hall.

I expect this to continue and more will contribute to a modest charge. It is only €1.15 and €3 per week.

It might be a modest charge for the Taoiseach.

Modest if you have it.

Yesterday, the Taoiseach said the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Committee of Public Accounts are the agencies in this jurisdiction for dealing with issues concerning the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA. We both know neither of them have the potential to fully hold NAMA to account. The legislation regarding the Comptroller and Auditor General does not allow for ongoing, intrusive oversight and monitoring and lacks asset management oversight functions. There are many concerns around the workings of NAMA.

Cerberus expects to make a large fortune from the purchase of Project Eagle. The £7 million that ended up in an Isle of Man bank account will begin to look like small change. The big loser, though, is the Irish taxpayer in the South. NAMA says the sale of Project Eagle was lawful, but was the purchase lawful? I would have thought that a Fine Gael Government would have a bit more concern about slush moneys for fixers. I doubt the Taoiseach has heard the last of Project Eagle.

Does the Taoiseach know how many barristers, judges, solicitors, top-four accountancy firm partners and bankers are in syndicates which have been set up by Goodbody Stockbrokers, Anglo Private, Bank of Ireland Private, AIB Private, Davy, Warren and Quinlan which have transferred to NAMA but which NAMA has not enforced, despite personal guarantees being attached? NAMA is responsible for some people being tossed out of their homes, but it looks like some of the great and good of Irish society are blessed with NAMA’s goodwill.

What role did a former Secretary General of the Department of Finance, John Moran, play in NAMA’s handling of the Coroin group’s portfolio? This gentleman remarked at one stage that the number of home repossessions in Ireland was unnaturally low. It would appear he was unnaturally interested in playing a significant role in the outcome of the Coroin group’s portfolio.

All is not well. I know of a construction company, Taoiseach, which wanted to exit out of NAMA, so it asked the manager of its portfolio if it could happen and he said, "Yes, but it will cost you €15,000 in cash and I want it in a bag".

Sorry, Deputy. If you have these sorts of charges, can I suggest you give them to An Garda Síochána because they cannot be substantiated here?

The Deputy should go before the Committee of Public Accounts with this information. He is grandstanding here.

A few weeks later, they delivered the money. A few weeks later he demanded the same again. They duly obliged and all was sorted - a small window into the workings of NAMA. Is the Taoiseach still happy with the workings of this secret society?

The Deputy has made a number of comments and allegations here regarding people working in different sectors, including members of the Judiciary. He made comments in respect of a former Secretary General of the Department of Finance, as well as comments generally in respect of NAMA.

Let me repeat again for him. The process of accountability and transparency in this jurisdiction in respect of NAMA is the Committee of Public Accounts in the Oireachtas, chaired by a Member of this House. Personnel from the Comptroller and Auditor General’s office work with NAMA and have access to all the papers and documents relevant to any of these transactions.

I would suggest that, as a public representative, the Deputy has a facility where questions can follow his allegations. He should go to Deputy McGuinness’s committee, the Committee of Public Accounts, a committee of long-standing integrity in this House. The Deputy can make his claims, ask his questions. The Chairman of the committee, with his members, is entitled to call in personnel in respect of the issues the Deputy raised.

The Deputy has made some serious claims here. I do not have the detailed responses to them. The Committee of Public Accounts is the authorised independent entity in the Oireachtas for accountability and transparency in respect of NAMA. I suggest to Deputy Wallace that in the interest of public accountability and transparency, he goes to the committee, presents his findings and facts - if facts they are - and allow the Chairman and his committee to do their work in the interests of their political responsibility here.

I can only come to the conclusion that the Taoiseach does not seem awfully interested in getting to the truth. There is a stark contrast between how Northern Ireland is dealing with this and how the Government is dealing with it.

The committee is in the North.

Can the Taoiseach tell me why did Mr. Frank Daly tell the Committee of Public Accounts that he did not know about the alleged £7 million in the Isle of Man bank account until I mentioned it? I know for a fact that NAMA-----

I am sorry, but this is Leaders' Questions.

-----knew this last January. What did it do about it? Did it tell the Minister for Finance or did it bury it with the rest of it? Mr. Coulter has denied the involvement of a politician. Well, he would, would he not? I decided to contact my sources this morning and ask them to what degree of certainty they could stand over the involvement of a particular politician. Their reply was, "Is 100% enough?". The Taoiseach has serious problems. Does he want answers to them? Do not bother asking me, Taoiseach, to go to the Garda-----

Sorry, but this is no way to be dealing with such a serious issue. The Deputy cannot use the Chamber as a Star Chamber where no evidence is presented. The Deputy is affecting people's reputations here. He has not presented any solid facts.

The facts are not the-----

I cannot allow this to continue in this Chamber. I would not mind, but this has been set up as the big issue of the day. We cannot have that.

It is not being set up by Deputy Wallace.

This is Leaders' Questions, which is designed that the Taoiseach is asked questions that he can answer.

He should answer them, then.

Please proceed on that basis.

The Taoiseach has not done a great job on it, has he?

He never answers.

If Deputy Wallace has further problems, please go to An Garda Síochána or the Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts-----

It would be difficult to find his answer to that question.

The Taoiseach never answers questions.

-----and deal with them in the proper fashion.

We went to the committee but we did not get answers.

I do not want this to be some sort of Star Chamber.

Deputy Wallace is entitled to raise issues.

(Interruptions).

Mattie will bring it.

What? What is wrong with the Chief Whip?

I will ask the Taoiseach again whether he is prepared to set up an independent commission of investigation. If he wants the truth, that is what he will have to do. The people would like him to do that. He owes it to them.

NAMA came to the Oireachtas last week and felt it was out of the woods leaving here, but do you know what, Taoiseach? The trees are only starting to grow.

The Deputy has stood up again now and he has made further allegations. I do not speak for anybody in Northern Ireland in regard to this. There is a criminal investigation going on there. As I understand it from yesterday's discussion here, there are no allegations against NAMA or personnel down here. I read out what the chronology of the actions of the Minister for Finance was-----

There are serious questions.

There are 13 Garda investigations.

Deputies, please.

-----following the process down here. Now, let me repeat what I said to Deputy McDonald yesterday. Deputy Wallace now tells me that he has facts. He now tells me that he has been checking with his sources. He has a duty and a responsibility to bring that to the attention of the accountable body in this Oireachtas, and that is the Committee of Public Accounts.

The Taoiseach has a duty to set up an inquiry.

The Taoiseach should do what Deputy Wallace is asking him to do.

Hold on a second.

Deputy Wallace has a responsibility to raise it in this House.

He has asked the Taoiseach to set up an inquiry.

Deputy Wallace is making allegations and assumptions in the middle of which he said he had facts. Well, I say to Deputy Wallace-----

He is quite entitled to raise these matters.

-----he has a duty to bring those allegations or those assertions or those facts to the accountable body in this Oireachtas, that is, the Committee of Public Accounts. The Chairman, who is present, with his members has full authority to follow through on those allegations-----

We have been told that we cannot.

How did the Government set up the banking inquiry?

-----assertions or assumptions that Deputy Wallace makes.

The finance committee does not have the expertise.

As I understand it, there is no basis for any criminal charge that I have heard, either against NAMA or anybody associated with it or the Minister for Finance or anybody in the Department of Finance.

There is enough there for a commission of investigation.

Is the Taoiseach not interested in finding out the truth?

If Deputy Wallace has evidence to the contrary, he should bring it to the attention of the Garda if it is criminal or bring it to the attention of Deputy-----

John McGuinness.

-----John McGuinness, Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts in the Oireachtas.

The Taoiseach's belated endorsement of Deputy McGuinness is noted.

That is Deputy Wallace's duty and responsibility, and everybody-----

Deputy Martin is a bit sensitive to that.

-----will be supportive of that-----

Deputy McGuinness told Deputy Martin to step back.

-----but we need to hear more than allegations or assertions or assumptions.

Step back. That is the problem. We are stepping back all the time.

(Interruptions).

If Deputy Wallace has facts and he has sources that he can check are authentic, he should bring them to the notice of the Chairman.

If the Taoiseach wants the truth, he will set up a commission of investigation.

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