Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 23 Sep 2015

Vol. 890 No. 1

Topical Issue Debate

Mortgage Lending

Deputy Michael McGrath

This issue relates to mortgage holders who have been wrongly denied the right to return to their tracker interest rate at the end of a period on a fixed rate. I will set out the background to this issue. In 2008 there was widespread expectation among mortgage customers that interest rates were going to rise further. The European Central Bank had increased its base rate in July 2008 to 4.25%, a different world from the current rate of 0.05%. At the time it represented the eighth rate hike in three years and many people, justifiably, took the decision to fix their rate rather than having to endure even higher rates.

It has emerged that in the case of Permanent TSB for sure, and possibly AIB, customers were incorrectly denied the right to return to their tracker rate at the end of the fixed rate arrangement. This occurred despite the right to return to a tracker rate being enshrined in mortgage contracts.

We know that in the case of Permanent TSB almost 1,400 mortgage customers were scandalously treated by that bank and its subsidiary company, Springboard Mortgages, when the bank failed to inform them of the consequences of their decisions to break early from a fixed rate or discounted tracker period as well as the failure to inform other customers of their right to be offered a tracker rate at the end of any fixed rate period. Some customers lost their homes as a result of this cock-up. A compensation process is under way now but many people lost their homes.

In the case of AIB it has emerged that the Irish Mortgage Holders Organisation has been in communication with 4,200 customers of AIB to encourage them to come forward if they believe they were denied the contractual right to a tracker mortgage rate after the fixed-interest period had expired.

It has yet to be established if this was an industry-wide practice but, to be frank, it is unlikely to have been an isolated practice. In 2011, Bank of Ireland was forced to put more than 2,000 of its residential borrowers back on tracker mortgages and compensate them after the Central Bank intervened in the matter. The Sunday Independent has reported that an AIB mortgage holder has been put back on a tracker rate after a write-down of in excess of €25,000 on the mortgage. The person was wrongly denied the right to return to a tracker interest rate following the expiry of the period on the fixed rate.

This is a key issue for consumers. I raised the matter directly with the Central Bank but, to be frank, the reply was not satisfactory. The Central Bank noted my view that there should be a system-wide review. The reply stated that the Central Bank was currently examining a number of lender-specific practices, particularly in respect of the transparency of disclosure for borrowers. However, that does not give me confidence that there will be a proper system-wide review of whether bank mortgage customers were wrongly denied the right to return to a tracker rate.

Given the record low ECB interest rate, we all know how valuable a tracker mortgage is. People should really guard it with their lives. To think that banks have, for certain, in some cases, wrongly denied people the right to return to a tracker rate is appalling. In other cases the banks have used dubious tactics to get people off a tracker rate. That is something the Central Bank should deal with strongly and decisively and this is the purpose of my putting down this Topical Issue. It is about protecting consumers and vindicating the rights of consumers who were wrongly denied a tracker rate. I hope these views will be conveyed to the Minister for Finance by the Minister of State present and that the Minister will take up these matters with the Central Bank and ensure a comprehensive industry-wide review of how mortgage customers have been dealt with in respect of tracker rates. Frankly, what we have learned so far is an utter disgrace.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Jimmy Deenihan)

I thank the Deputy for bringing this matter to the attention of the House again. I trust he is referring to the recent investigation undertaken by the Central Bank into Permanent TSB and its subsidiary company Springboard Mortgages limited. The role of the Minister for Finance is to provide the right framework to protect consumers of financial services. The Financial Services Ombudsman can provide information to the Central Bank if it becomes aware of a possible systemic issue on foot of individual complaints to it about the behaviour of a particular institution. Under section 57CQ of the Central Bank Act 1942, as amended, the ombudsman may make recommendations to the Central Bank with respect to measures that it may take to effectively deal with persistent patterns of complaints.

In this case, as the Deputy will be aware, as a result of an enforcement investigation by the Central Bank of Ireland, significant failures were identified in Permanent TSB and Springboard associated with tracker mortgage options and rates. Arising from the Central Bank’s enforcement investigation, Permanent TSB has agreed to implement a redress and compensation programme to address the detriment suffered by 1,372 customer accounts. The consequences of these failures are serious and include mortgage overpayments, mortgage arrears, legal proceedings, and, in certain cases, loss of ownership of properties, including some homes, as the Deputy mentioned.

The chairman and chief executive of Permanent TSB Group Holdings plc have fully acknowledged that this is a matter of the utmost seriousness. The mortgage redress programme has a number of objectives: to restore the affected mortgage accounts to the position they would now be in had the failure not occurred; to make a compensation payment to affected account holders; to make a payment to affected account holders for use, if required, in securing independent advice on this matter; and to provide a comprehensive appeals system for affected account holders.

I understand from the Central Bank that enforcement investigations into these issues at Permanent TSB and Springboard are currently ongoing. For that reason, it is not in a position to provide any additional information in respect of these enforcement investigations at this time.

As the Deputy will be aware, the Financial Services Ombudsman dealt with complaints from Permanent TSB customers on this issue. I understand it was in dialogue with the Central Bank on the topic. A number of cases were put on hold when findings in other cases were appealed to the High and Supreme Courts. I understand that the Financial Services Ombudsman’s bureau kept in constant communication with these complainants while the cases were stayed pending the outcome of the Supreme Court challenge. These cases will now be processed through the PTSB redress scheme, but the complaint cases remain open with the ombudsman. I understand that the ombudsman continues to actively engage with the Central Bank of Ireland on this subject.

I also understand that, as part of the Central Bank’s ongoing supervisory work over the past few years, it has identified and pursued a number of lender-specific issues in regard to transparency for consumers moving off tracker rates or who are not moved to a tracker rate at the end of a fixed-rate period. The Central Bank has made appropriate use of its supervisory and regulatory powers, including the administrative sanctions procedure, in order to ensure that the interests of those consumers affected are protected in each of those cases. The Central Bank is also currently examining a number of lender-specific practices, particularly with regard to transparency of disclosure for borrowers. The determination of the most effective and appropriate further supervisory engagement will be informed by the outcome of this current supervisory work, as well as any other market intelligence, including its engagement with the Financial Services Ombudsman.

The Central Bank is an independent institution and the Minister for Finance does not have a role in directing its enforcement or investigative activities. That said, the Government expects the Central Bank to use the powers available to it and to take whatever steps are necessary to ensure that all customers are protected, whether this involves formal investigations or other means.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I thank the Minister of State for the reply. He should be made aware that as far back as 2009 the Financial Services Ombudsman wrote to the Central Bank and asked that there be an industry-wide review of how customers were being encouraged to move off tracker mortgage rates and how people were being denied the possibility of returning to tracker mortgage rates. In the case of Permanent TSB, it is very clear that, having had findings made against it by the Financial Services Ombudsman and having lost in the High Court, it went as far as the steps of the Supreme Court, while at the same time a Central Bank investigation was under way, before finally arriving at the conclusion that it was wrong. It then took action on the issue.

We should be under no illusions about what we are dealing with. The banks will do whatever they have to do to encourage people to come off tracker mortgages. We now have direct experience of cases in which banks have denied customers the right to return to a tracker interest rate after a fixed period. A number of things need to happen. Any repossession cases being taken against mortgage holders who were wrongly denied the right to return to a tracker rate should be dropped. The Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform needs to investigate the broader issues involved, and I will attend a meeting of the committee after this debate, where I will make the same suggestion.

The six-year rule pertaining to the Financial Services Ombudsman means that somebody can only take a complaint to it about a matter which arose within the past six years. It will become a serious issue because many people who signed up to fixed rates in 2007 and 2008 came off them in 2010 and 2011. The clock is now ticking for such people under the six-year rule and the window will effectively be shut on them. I want the Government to take up this issue directly with the Central Bank and to use the powers it has to properly supervise this area and carry out a comprehensive investigation into how customers have been treated by the bank in respect of tracker mortgage rates. We know from its track record that it will get away with what it can.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

The Deputy has raised a number of very pertinent issues that I will bring to the attention of the Minister for Finance, as well the Deputy. If he is aware of other banks that have behaved in similar ways, leading to failures similar to that of Permanent TSB, he should bring them to the attention of the Central Bank. Although it does not investigate individual consumer complaints, it does welcome information from consumers of financial products. The information thus obtained may be used in carrying out its prudential and supervisory activity. I would also expect that the other banks in Ireland that offered tracker products and could have been exposed to similar failures would examine their processes to ensure that everything was done properly. This would be prudent behaviour on their part.

As I said, I expect the Central Bank to use the powers available to it and to take whatever steps are necessary to ensure that all customers are protected. I also expect it to be proactive when a potential systemic issue comes to light. I again thank the Deputy for raising this matter.

National Monuments

Deputy Eric Byrne

It is with great sadness that I have to raise this issue, which I raised on 22 May 2012 with the Minister of State, Deputy Deenihan, yet again. I brought to the attention of his Department the recklessness of scramblers, quad bikers and others engaging in anti-social activities in the Dublin and Wicklow mountains. I am a regular visitor to them - I am on the mountains every weekend.

The Dublin Mountains Way was developed in conjunction with four local authorities. It is a spectacular civic amenity in the Dublin mountains. There is a Neolithic passage grave which is approximately 5,000 years old and is probably the closest such grave to Dublin. One can stand and look over the city of Dublin, see the bay and reflect that one is standing on something that was built and operated as a grave by people in the forests of the area. It allows one to contemplate how people might have lived 5,000 years ago.

The tragedy is that last week we discovered an amazing desecration of the grave, which is recognised by the Office of Public Works as a national monument. People systematically tore the passage grave to bits. It is a sight that would bring tears to one's eye if one was that emotional about the issue.

If this site has stood for 5,000 years, why, over the weekend, can gurriers systematically wreck this passage tomb?

I received a report before I came in from another hill walking activist who told me she has noticed the Fairy Castle cairn has been interfered with, possibly over recent days. It seems people are trying to penetrate this particular cairn to see what may be beneath it. There are many cairns and passage graves in the Wicklow area. On the previous occasion I spoke on this issue it was with regard to motorbikes literally riding right up on top of Seahan and Seefin, and in and around that most magnificent monument to those who lived in the area 5,000 years ago, Seefingan, which has the most magnificent passage grave. It is worth encouraging people to go see it if they are into walking.

Will the Minister of State investigate the desecration of these passage graves? Will he enact the necessary legislation to prevent motorbikes, scramblers and quads desecrating these very important landmarks in our mountain ranges? The Dublin Mountains Way is spectacularly popular with dog walkers, runners and hill walkers. Will the Minister of State take the necessary steps to have both of these sites investigated with a view to taking the necessary action to rehabilitate them in whatever way possible? I have photographs for the Minister of State so he knows what I am speaking about with regard to the desecration of the grave.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. The Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, who unfortunately is unavailable today, is charged with responsibility under the National Monuments Acts 1930 to 2004 for the protection of our rich and important archaeological heritage. I assure the Deputy it is a responsibility which both she and her Department treat with the upmost seriousness.

The hilltop cairn at Tibradden, County Dublin, is a national monument of which the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht is guardian under the National Monuments Acts. It has an interesting history. In the middle of the 19th century what was believed to be Bronze Age pottery and bone was recovered from the monument. In 1956, an archaeological excavation was carried out by the National Monuments Service. The results of that excavation clarified that the cairn was in fact a Bronze Age burial site dating from 1,800 B.C. to 600 B.C. However, it is important to note that the above ground passage and chamber structure is actually a 19th century feature. Examination of Bronze Age burial sites has great potential to yield important archaeological information about ritual and burial rites in prehistoric times. It can, in turn, also cast wider light on the nature and structure of prehistoric society, as well as bringing us into closer contact with our remote ancestors. While, as I have said, the cairn at Tibradden has been subject to some archaeological excavation, there is no doubt it retains the potential to yield further important information about our past, a fact which further highlights the need to preserve and protect it.

As a national monument of which the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht is guardian under the National Monuments Acts, the cairn enjoys a high level of legal protection under those Acts. Section 14 of the National Monuments Act 1930 makes it clear that it is a serious criminal offence for any unauthorised person to interfere with or damage such a monument. A conviction carries a fine of up to €10 million and up to five years in jail. A convicted person may also be required by the courts to fund the cost of repairing the monument. These onerous penalties reflect the gravity with which the Oireachtas views such offences, a view to which the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht fully subscribes.

As the Deputy will no doubt appreciate, the national monument formed by the cairn at Tibradden is situated in an isolated hilltop location. The protection of such monuments from interference, whether through deliberate vandalism or interference by those who simply do not understand the nature and significance of what they are doing, presents challenges. While the Minister and her Department are, of course, fully committed to using the sanctions available under the National Monuments Acts, she must also rely on the goodwill and vigilance of the public as one of the main ways to protect our archaeological heritage. In that context, the Minister would call on anyone who has information about any damage to this or any other monument to contact her Department's National Monuments Service or the Garda.

The Minister very much appreciates the steps taken by concerned citizens in this case to bring this matter to the attention of the National Monuments Service. I assure the House that the Minister is having it fully investigated by her Department and has also brought it to the attention of An Garda Síochána. The Minister deplores, as we all should, breaches of the National Monuments Acts; such breaches represent acts of gross disrespect and disregard for our national heritage.

Fortunately, in this particular case, the reported damage may not be especially serious, as it appears to be confined to the movement of loose stones from the cairn into the central chamber area. The material moved would very likely have been taken from an area rebuilt in the 1950s. It may indeed be possible to rectify it by simply moving the loose stone from the chamber back onto the surrounding cairn. The Minister's Department has already initiated discussions with the Office of Public Works with a view to repairing whatever damage has occurred at the earliest possible opportunity.

It is obviously difficult to know in this particular case, pending the outcome of any further investigations by An Garda Síochána, what may have been the motivation behind what occurred. As noted already, such incidents can represent intentional vandalism or simply a lack of understanding and appreciation of our heritage. On behalf of the Minister, I appeal to everyone to demonstrate appropriate respect towards our national monuments and also to be vigilant about protecting these monuments so we can be sure they will be there for future generations to visit and enjoy.

Deputy Eric Byrne

I thank the Minister of State very much. I am very conscious he is familiar with the mountain ranges of Ireland and that he is keen to protect our national heritage. He will see from the photograph that what happened required the movement of quite a substantial amount of the walls of the passage grave. He will see the entranceway to the grave. I am interested to learn it was rebuilt in the 1950s. Perhaps we can reinstate it to some degree of authenticity. The Minister of State mentioned there are loose stones. These cairns all comprise loose stones. The report I received recently that the cairn at Fairy Castle has been interfered with is particularly worrying, as there may be an attempt to interfere with these national monuments throughout the Dublin and Wicklow Mountains. In particular, Seefin, which is a phenomenal passage grave, should not suffer any further damage.

Will the Minister of State address the question of the responsible use of motorbikes and scramblers and the desecration of these very important sites? The Wicklow Way is a phenomenal development and attracts tourists from all over the world. The mountains are becoming more and more open to people who walk them and enjoy the scenery, vistas and knowledge that they are standing close by burial grounds which are perhaps 5,000 or 6,000 years old. This must be treated in the most serious way and these sites must be protected not only for this generation of Irish people, but generations to come. We owe these passage graves and cairns absolute respect as something we have inherited from as far back as 5,000 or 6,000 years ago.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

Again, I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. Over the past five years we have walked most of the mountain ranges of Ireland with some of our colleagues, and I know he has a real passionate and genuine interest in archaeology and the protection of our uplands. I thank him very much for that. I am confident the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht is particularly pleased to see a demonstration of such interest in this central part of her brief as Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, and a matter which all Members of the House will, no doubt, consider to be of great public interest. She wishes these sentiments to be conveyed to the Deputy.

I again assure the Deputy that all appropriate steps are being taken in this case. As serious as the matter undoubtedly is, it appears, based on the information so far available, that the matter can be remedied.

As has been outlined, the National Monuments Acts 1930 to 2004 provide robust protection for our most important national monuments, and the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht is absolutely determined to enforce these provisions, working in close co-operation with other authorities, particularly An Garda Síochána. The investigation of the current case is at an early stage but the Minister can say happily that the past experience of her Department has been that An Garda Síochána takes such incidents very seriously and works with determination to resolve them.

The National Monuments Acts provide for the erection of signs at national monuments of which the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht is owner or guardian. The actual erection and maintenance of such signs is a matter for the Office of Public Works. In regard to this particular case, the Minister will discuss with the Office of Public Works whether there is a need for any additional signage at the monument. That could help, as some people do not realise the value of these particular sites. I will also bring to her attention the issue of motorbike and scrambler usage in those areas.

Mental Health Services

Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor

On Monday this week, World Alzheimer's Day, the world united in the fight to raise dementia awareness and make a difference for the 46 million people worldwide who suffer from dementia. Unfortunately, we all know someone who suffers from dementia and the debilitating life impact it can have not only on a person but on loved ones and friends. In 2012, the World Health Organization stated that dementia is the biggest social issue facing the world today and in Ireland, as in the rest of the world, the prevalence of dementia is rising. Currently, there are 48,000 people with dementia in Ireland and this number is expected to treble in a generation. This is not a goal we want to reach, which is why I am urging the Minister to address brain health and dementia prevention. We must tackle this issue head on, and I would like to see the national dementia strategy for 2014 implemented.

If we could delay the onset of dementia for two years, it would result in a massive 20% decrease in prevalence. A report published recently and commissioned by the Alzheimer's Society of Ireland and authored by the Institute of Public Health in Ireland revealed that if key risk factors for dementia, such as low levels of education and unhealthy lifestyles, had been addressed through public policy initiatives, there could be a reduction of more than 1,000 in the number of people living with dementia in Ireland today. The study highlights seven modifiable risk factors, including low education, diabetes, smoking, depression, physical inactivity, mid-life obesity and high blood pressure. These are all risk factors that can be addressed, modified and avoided in many cases.

I work very closely with the Alzheimer's Society of Ireland in Blackrock and I wish to emphasise the simple concept of brain health it has proposed to me. This concept can be used to inform Government policies geared at minimising early school leaving and promoting a healthy lifestyle which it believes could prove significant in reducing dementia risk in the population. We could and should seriously consider the integration of dementia awareness into national public health programmes. We must fight the growing prevalence of this condition. Next year alone, 4,000 people - or 11 people per day - will develop dementia. This is alarming, as the average annual cost per person with dementia in Ireland is estimated at €40,500, with the economic cost of the illness estimated at €1.7 billion in 2010. The concept of brain health is a new theme but it is effectively cost-neutral, as it is simply about incorporating messages into existing public health policies and promotions. As a member of the Committee on Health and Children, I fully recognise the challenges we face in tackling the risk factors alone, such as obesity and smoking. That is not reason enough not to consider how we can integrate brain health and dementia awareness into our existing public health policies. It can and should be done.

Minister for Health (Deputy Leo Varadkar)

I thank Deputy Mitchell O’Connor for raising the issue of dementia and Alzheimer's disease. I am taking the debate this afternoon on behalf of my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, who is abroad on Government business.

It is estimated that there are approximately 50,000 people with dementia in Ireland today. These numbers are expected to increase to more than 140,000 by 2041 as the number of older people in Ireland increases. For this reason, in December 2014 the Government launched the Irish national dementia strategy. This delivered on a commitment in the programme for Government and set down a number of principles to underpin the provision of care and supports for people with dementia. These include taking account of dementia in the development and implementation of existing and future health policies, encouraging people with dementia to participate in society and in their communities as fully as possible for as long as they can, and prioritising end-of-life care for those with dementia and providing it in the most appropriate setting. All those caring for or providing services to people with dementia should be appropriately trained and supervised and resources should be directed to provide the best possible outcome for those with dementia and for their families and carers.

The initial emphasis was on doing things better within existing resources. A welcome boost has since been provided by Atlantic Philanthropies which, along with my Department and the HSE, has agreed a joint initiative to implement key elements of the strategy to 2017. This national dementia strategy implementation programme will represent a combined investment of €27.5 million, with Atlantic Philanthropies contributing €12 million and the HSE contributing €15.5 million. This programme will promote a greater focus on the timely diagnosis of dementia and the value of early intervention along with the long-term objective of making people in Ireland generally more aware and understanding of the needs of people with dementia and of the contribution those with dementia continue to make to our society.

The initiative includes the following key elements. One is a programme of intensive home supports and home care packages for people with dementia while another is the provision of additional dementia-specific resources for GPs, who are the initial point of contact with the health service for those with dementia. This resource material will include training materials and guidance on local services and contact points that are relevant. The GP programme is being led by Dr. Tony Foley in Kinsale and training will be delivered in the nine community health organisations. A further element is to raise public awareness and promote a better understanding of dementia and its prevention, address stigma and promote the inclusion and involvement in society of those with dementia. Measures will be implemented by the HSE to support the work of Healthy Ireland by highlighting the modifiable lifestyle and cardiovascular risk factors that can beneficially impact on risk and time of onset of dementia, and by implementing the national physical activity plan, which will encourage the population to be more physically active.

The HSE is developing a dementia-friendly Ireland campaign, which will aim to promote simple preventative measures for everyone in society by improving understanding of dementia and its causes. Clear responsibility has been assigned within the HSE, where a dedicated office has been established to lead the implementation of the strategy. The consolidation of functions that were previously dispersed will have a very significant effect in generating and maintaining momentum and driving change. We are still in the early stages of implementation but the national dementia strategy is a clear indication by the Government of the importance it attaches to the condition, its prevention and our commitment to ensuring those with dementia can live well for as long as possible.

Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor

I am glad the Minister mentioned intensive home support packages today. I also want to recognise the extremely difficult and hard work that a carer for a person with Alzheimer's disease must do. The majority of people with dementia - 63% - live at home in the community. Most are cared for by a family member, with approximately 50,000 dementia family carers in Ireland. Often, that family carer is an elderly spouse or partner who may be in their 80s. Carers must watch their own husbands, wives and partners change before their eyes.

They are helpless in so many ways and struggle every day to make sure their loved ones are comfortable and safe as Alzheimer's takes its terrifying grip on their personality and memory. I must also mention the Living Well with Dementia initiative, which has been running in Stillorgan and Blackrock for the past three years. There are also a number of other organisations throughout the country. This initiative provides amazing supports to people with dementia and their families so that they can continue to live at home. Living at home in a familiar environment plays a vital role in slowing down the progression of dementia. It is for both the person suffering with Alzheimer's and the carer that we must do something. We must address dementia prevention and awareness and make sure carers are supported.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

I concur with all the remarks made by Deputy Mitchell O'Connor and thank her in particular for her interest in this very important issue at the time of World Alzheimer's Day. I assure her of the Government's interest in the issue.

Refugee Data

Deputy Mick Wallace

We have touched on this subject many times before. We raised the issue a few times last winter when Operation Mare Nostrum was cancelled and the attitude was that we were only encouraging refugees by pulling them out of the sea. We then discovered that when we do not pull them out of the sea they drown in it. It is to be welcomed that we have decided to take in some people. We did not want to do it at first but seemingly we have been shamed into it. People obviously realise that we struggle to house our own, so housing others is an extra challenge. By the way, I suggest that the Government stop NAMA from selling Project Arrow, 50% of which is residential units and which has a par value of €7.2 billion. They are threatening to sell it to a crowd called Cerberus for about €1 billion, which is nonsense. Aside from putting-----

Acting Chairman (Deputy Olivia Mitchell)

That really is not relevant to this discussion.

Deputy Mick Wallace

It is actually very well connected to it.

Another related issue is that the refugees do not come from nowhere. We allow Shannon Airport to be used by the US military, who bomb people's homes and create refugees. The amount of weaponry being used in the world in the last four years has risen by 16% compared to the previous four years, and we facilitate it. Right now, we are allowing arms to go through Shannon Airport on the way to Saudi Arabia, which is bombing the living daylights out of Yemen, and no one seems to give a damn because the US is involved. When are we going to call a spade a spade and say that killing people and destroying their homes is wrong? When are we going to say that and stop allowing Shannon to be used as a US military base?

Deputy Clare Daly

This is a major issue which is convulsing Europe, and I am shocked that there are only two of us in here who have raised this today. It is the third time we have had this question as a Topical Issue. The dire situation that hundreds of thousands, and indeed millions, of people around the globe are being placed in is reprehensible. We know that when Mare Nostrum was cancelled, the Irish Government representatives sat in EU meetings and stayed schtum. They were ordered, if they had to say anything, to talk about the handful of refugees we had already agreed to take.

Europe undoubtedly now has a migrant crisis, but that is precisely because migrants have a European crisis, a crisis caused by intervention and regime change attempts in their regions orchestrated and led by the US military. Ireland, as Deputy Wallace says, is culpable and has a role in that. We discussed this morning with the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport the list of permissions given to US aircraft and those destined for Saudi Arabia with munitions on board that could be cluster bombs. Ireland spearheaded a campaign against such activity years ago, but we could be allowing such weaponry to transit through Shannon Airport.

We need to do more. Whether it is 400, 600, 4,000 or 6,000 refugees who are welcomed here, I welcome them. I do not believe it has any connection to our homelessness situation. It will not stop any homeless person from getting a house. The only way homeless people will be housed is if we build more social housing. I would like the Minister, as spokesperson on our behalf, to welcome greater numbers than we have indicated, not least because of our culpability. I have no problem myself with taking people into my home, as thousands of other Irish people have. It is just not good enough. We are culpable and we need to do a lot more.

Minister for Justice and Equality (Deputy Frances Fitzgerald)

According to the UNHCR, more than 50 million people are fleeing war and conflicts worldwide and many more are looking for a better future, as we well know. Obviously we cannot accommodate everyone in Europe without endangering our own societal cohesion, but clearly there is an enormous humanitarian issue in Europe right now that needs a comprehensive response. There are many different elements to this response.

Over the years, Ireland has always lived up to its international humanitarian obligations, and we are fully committed to playing our part in addressing the migration crisis facing Europe. We have all been shocked and upset at what we have seen in southern and central Europe and the distressing scenes during rescues in the Mediterranean, and we must do all we can. We have been working proactively over the months. At the EU Justice and Home Affairs Council meetings, the Taoiseach, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Flanagan, and myself have all been involved in developing the European action programme on migration to deal with these issues over many months, often behind the scenes, but also in the Council meetings, working through how the European Union can proactively be involved in this issue and deal with the crisis on its doorstep. There are many elements to this comprehensive response: working with the African countries where development is needed; providing more humanitarian aid, which the Heads of State will be discussing this evening; working with people who are already in the refugee camps and trying to ensure the standards in those camps are good enough for people to remain there until they are processed; and helping people to get through the various processes in an orderly way. We need more legal routes to Europe - of that there is no doubt - but we do need to have some further controls over the current situation. That was part of the discussion yesterday.

The situation changed rapidly over the summer months, and that is why the Minister for Defence, Deputy Coveney, approached the Government proactively to send the LE Eithne and subsequently the LE Niamh and the LE Samuel Beckett to the Mediterranean to carry out vital rescue missions, which they have done very successfully. Not many other countries are doing that. We have also given €41 million in aid to Syria. It is a very complex issue in both Syria and Libya, and we do need the international community, including Ireland, to play its part to resolve the conflict in Syria. More efforts need to be made at every level, including in the UN and internationally, between Russia, the United States, China and so on. Everyone who has a voice should be using that voice. I can only agree with the Deputies on that, because we need to get a resolution as so many of the refugees are coming from war-torn Syria and Eritrea.

Two weeks ago, the Government decided that Ireland will accept up to 4,000 persons overall under EU resettlement and relocation programmes. Some 520 programme refugees are currently being resettled in Ireland directly from refugee camps in Lebanon. We have already had staff out working to identify the people who are in a position to come to Ireland, and they have started arriving. We have also agreed to the extra numbers. We have opted into the EU emergency relocation measure. We had a choice as to whether to do that and we decided to do so. It will, of course, be discussed in the Dáil and the Seanad. There will be a motion here next week to allow a detailed discussion on that. I also informed the EU Justice and Home Affairs Council meeting yesterday that we would not be taking up the option we have to wait three months, as we do when we opt into decisions. We could have delayed the whole process but we did not want to do that, so we agreed to opt in immediately. Denmark was not in a position to opt in because of its own constitutional position and the UK did not do so either, but we said we would come in.

The Government has now set up the Irish refugee protection programme. I chaired a meeting with 25 different groups which have a contribution to make in working towards solutions here, providing accommodation and taking up those voluntary offers of approximately 16,000 places. Not all those places would be feasible to take up in the first instance because people need to have the assessment as to their refugee status done first in the orientation centres, and we have agreed that would be done on a priority basis in the next couple of weeks. Once the people arrive from Italy and Greece, they will be assessed immediately as to their refugee status, but it is expected that between 80% and 90% of them will immediately get refugee status.

This is a new type of programme. We have not had a programme like this previously where those who will come here are identified in Italy and Greece in the first instance in these centres that are being set up there this week. The suitable persons will be identified to come to Ireland and they will then be given the opportunity to have that assessment done here and to be accommodated here. There will be short-term issues but also medium and long-term ones.

Deputy Mick Wallace

The Minister is talking about us providing funding for aid which is all very well and good, but many of the refugees who are coming to Europe at present are trying to get to countries that have played a part in bombing their homes and killing their relatives, be it through the use of airports or through the sale of arms. Where is the logic in that?

Why do we continue to allow Shannon to be used to destroy their countries? Some 1.3 million citizens, not military personnel, have been killed in this region in the past 13 years by the US military machine and we still allow them to use Shannon. There are more weapons in the Middle East than there is bread. Why do we not tell the Americans that we will let bread, not arms, through Shannon? It is outrageous that we can turn a blind eye to how Shannon is being used. It is a disgrace.

Deputy Clare Daly

The reality is that those ending up on European shores after making a horrendous journey to reach here constitute just the tip of the iceberg. Millions of the refugees are confined to the borders of Lebanon and Turkey with more in the Middle East-Europe region. Half the world's refugees come from Syria, Afghanistan and Somalia. Last year we allowed six flights go from the United States to Afghanistan carrying hundreds of tonnes of ammunition and I have no doubt, because of the experience of what happened in Iraq where weapons ended up in the hands of the opposition, that some of that weaponry that transited through our shores ended up in the hands of the Taliban and ISIS, the very ones who are playing a role in driving these refugees out of their homes in the first place.

This is one of the key points we want to register. I would welcome far more than 4,000 refugees here, but we really need a debate in Europe about the reasons these people are being made refugees in the first place. Our culpability in that rests at Shannon Airport and we must seriously look at what is being transited through there in our name, the name of a neutral country.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

The flow of refugees is coming from a wide variety of countries. It is coming from, to name but a few of the countries, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the Horn of Africa. There are various factors impacting on the numbers of refugees coming to Europe at present. As I said, it needs a multifaceted response. Nobody is turning a blind eye to any of the issues the Deputies outline, but we need engagement with the various world powers to deal with the problems of Syria and we need concentrated action.

The Deputies have not mentioned that many of the migrants coming to Europe are economic migrants as well. Considerable numbers are coming for economic reasons, particularly from Africa. Clearly, helping African countries to develop properly and giving them support is what will make a difference there.

We must distinguish. As I have said, Europe cannot accommodate everyone without endangering our own societal cohesion, but we have international obligations which we want to meet. We must distinguish between refugees and economic migrants and have the kind of policies in place that support people to come legally to Europe. The current situation is not helping anyone and is putting terrible trauma on the people who are arriving at the borders of Europe.

Yesterday's Council was an important step in agreeing a coherent European approach to supporting the refugees in their countries of origin or surrounding countries, with all member states working together, having a more co-ordinated approach to assessment, supporting the refugees when they arrive in Europe, and working out the relocation. It is only one step. I certainly agree many steps are needed. It is not a situation for which one single solution can be found. It will involve many countries around the world, it is multifaceted, and it involves foreign policy as well as the policies we were discussing yesterday.

An increase in humanitarian aid was agreed. Hundreds of millions of euro are being given by the EU for increased humanitarian aid in the camps and to the refugees. Norway, for example, is holding an immediate donor conference to help Syrian refugees in particular because of the difficulties they face. There is much work to be done and all the Council meetings are certainly preoccupied with this issue, as they should be.

The numbers in the Mediterranean have stabilised. They are still high, at 115,000, but of course the western Balkan route is the route that is now being used and that is where the focus will be over the coming weeks and months during the winter period.