Deputy Clare Daly is sharing time with Deputies John Halligan, Richard Boyd Barrett, Tom Fleming and Thomas Pringle. The speakers have two minutes each.
Travellers' Rights: Motion (Resumed) [Private Members]
The following motion was moved by Deputy Michael Colreavy on Tuesday, 3 November 2015:
That Dáil Éireann:
extends its sincere condolences and sympathy to the Lynch, Gilbert and Connors families on the tragic loss of their loved ones in the Carrickmines fire and offers solidarity and support to the wider Traveller community;
recognises that Travellers experience endemic racism and discrimination in Irish society and suffer disproportionately in all the key social indicators including employment, poverty, health, infant mortality, life expectancy, literacy, education and accommodation;
acknowledges that many in the Travelling community are forced to endure intolerable substandard living conditions which have resulted in many Travellers being denied access to basic facilities such as sanitation, water and electricity;
further acknowledges that appallingly poor accommodation conditions have greatly contributed to widespread health problems and appalling premature death rates amongst the Travelling community;
recognises that a root cause of many of these problems is the widespread levels of prejudice, discrimination and social exclusion experienced by Travellers at institutional and other levels of Irish society and that the State has failed in its responsibility to treat Irish Travellers as full and equal citizens;
condemns the successive Government budget cuts to Traveller Programmes that have decreased funding for Travellers from €35 million in 2010 to €4.3 million in 2015, and in particular the erosion from €70 million in 2000 to €4.3 million in 2015 to the Traveller accommodation budget;
agrees that in the aftermath of the Carrickmines tragedy there is an urgent need for a far reaching and fundamental reappraisal of the way in which Travellers are treated in Irish society and that this will require a momentous shift in individual and community attitudes which can only happen with political leadership at Government level;
calls on the Taoiseach to make a statement to Dáil Éireann confirming that the State recognises the ethnicity of the Travelling community; and
calls on the Government to:
— implement the recommendations of the April 2014 Report by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality on the Recognition of Traveller Ethnicity before the end of this Dáil term;
— establish an all-Ireland forum involving Travellers and the settled community, including representatives of all political parties, central Government, local authorities, health and education sectors and representatives of media organisations, to be tasked with:
— reviewing the way Travellers are treated in society and by institutions of the State;
— putting forward policies that will ensure the State fully honours its responsibilities to the international conventions on human rights and truly values and protects our Traveller communities; and
— implementing the new positive duty (Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission [IRHEC] Act 2014) obliging public bodies to have regard, in the performance of their functions, to the need to eliminate discrimination and promote equality of opportunity and treatment;
— enact a series of measures to address the housing crisis affecting Travellers that will include:
— reform of all existing legislation that penalises Traveller culture and ways of life;
— amending the Planning and Development Act 2000 to make the Traveller Accommodation Programme a mandatory consideration on an application for planning permission;
— empowering the National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committee to take charge of the provision of Traveller accommodation, with an annual budget and targets and with a commitment to closer monitoring and mid-term reviews;
— frontloading funding to local authorities with a good track record of delivering Traveller accommodation and enacting legislation that will penalise local authorities that refuse to build needed Traveller accommodation; and
— incorporating local development plan zoning objectives with provisions of the Traveller Accommodation Programme (especially in relation to the use of temporary or transient halting sites).
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after “Dáil Éireann” and substitute the following:
"extends its sincere condolences and sympathy to the Lynch, Gilbert and Connors families on the tragic loss of their loves ones in the Carrickmines fire and offers solidarity and support to the wider Traveller community;
agrees that in the aftermath of the Carrickmines tragedy there is an urgent need for a far-reaching and fundamental reappraisal of the position of Travellers in Irish society and that this will require a significant shift in individual and community attitudes to inculcate mutual respect and understanding as between Travellers and the settled community;
recognises that:
— Travellers experience poorer outcomes in key social indicators including employment, poverty, health, infant mortality, life expectancy, literacy, education and accommodation and face enduring discrimination; and
— a further effort by Government Departments, agencies and Traveller organisations at national and local level working in partnership is required to address the root cause of these problems and to bring about greater mutual understanding and respect as between Travellers and the settled community;
recalls the recommendations of the April 2014 Report by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality on the Recognition of Traveller Ethnicity;
notes that accommodation for Travellers is provided through a range of measures and that it is open to Travellers to opt for any form of accommodation, including:
— standard local authority housing, financed from the Department of Environment, Community and Local Government capital allocations for social housing;
— Traveller-specific accommodation, also financed by the Department;
— private housing assisted by the State, including local authorities, or voluntary organisations; and
— through Travellers’ own resources;
recognises that, while there has been a general decrease in Traveller-specific accommodation funding, some €400 million has been invested in the provision and support of Traveller-specific accommodation over the last 15 years. The 2015 allocation totalled €4.3 million and an increase in the budget for 2016 has been agreed to €5.5 million;
recognises and supports the continuing valuable work of the National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committee, NTACC, including the advice and supports it provides to the Local Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committees, LTACCs;
notes the continued delivery of Traveller-specific accommodation through the provision of funding to local authorities through the Traveller Accommodation Programme, supported at national level by the NTACC. The implementation of the Traveller Accommodation Programme of each local authority, including the drawdown of funds, is in accordance with the Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act 1998, a matter of each individual authority;
recognises that local authorities are already mandatorily required under section 10 of the Planning and Development Act 2000, as amended, to incorporate zoning objectives to provide for Traveller-specific accommodation in their development plans;
notes:
— that additional resources provided in the educational system for all children, including members of the Traveller community, are allocated on the basis of identified individual educational need; that a key objective of the Traveller Education Strategy is the phasing out of segregated Traveller provision; and that additional resources have been provided to assist with the transfer of Traveller children and young people to mainstream provision, including additional pupil capitation, together with additional resource teacher posts to support the approximately 11,000 Traveller pupils in primary and post-primary education; and
— the substantial investment made in building the capacity of the Traveller community, through the Local and Community Development Programme, LCDP, with funding of €1.17 million for the National Traveller Partnership in 2015;
notes and welcomes that funding of approximately €1.35 million will transfer from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to the Department of Justice and Equality as from 1 January 2016 as part of a new National Strategic Framework being put in place by the latter Department to support the work of the local Traveller Interagency Groups, TIGs, Traveller community development projects and national organisations and to ensure that Traveller interests are strongly represented in local economic and community planning by local authorities;
welcomes:
— the consultation process led by the Department of Justice and Equality which is underway to develop a new National Traveller and Roma Inclusion Strategy; notes that phase 1, identification of key themes for the new Strategy has been completed, that phase 2, identification and agreement of high-level objectives under each agreed theme, will commence shortly and that phase 3, identification of detailed actions to achieve each agreed objective, with associated timescales, key performance indicators, institutional responsibilities and monitoring arrangements, will commence in early 2016; and
— that the new National Traveller and Roma Inclusion Strategy is due to be completed and published in the first quarter of 2016 and welcomes the Government’s commitment that it will contain clear commitments and timeframes to address the accommodation, health, education and other issues the Traveller community faces; and further notes that:
— the role of the National Traveller and Roma Inclusion Strategy Steering Group, which monitors delivery of the strategy, has been strengthened, including in relation to commissioning of independent evaluations of implementation;
— the question of whether revised institutional arrangements for delivery of services to Travellers are necessary to bring about greater coherence in and improve the effectiveness of statutory services for the Traveller community has been raised during the ongoing consultation process and will be considered in the drafting of the new National Traveller and Roma Inclusion Strategy; and
— the question of formal recognition of Travellers as a group in Irish society with a unique culture, heritage and ethnic identity is being considered in the context of the development of the new National Traveller and Roma Inclusion Strategy."
-(Minister of State at the Department of Justice and Equality, Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin)
The Government talks a great deal about equality and slaps itself on the back about the same-sex marriage vote, but its claims of being champions of equality ring hollow when one looks at the situation facing Travellers. We correctly cry when they die in horrendous fires in halting sites, yet their children are put on the PULSE machine in racial profiling. We put them into accommodation the budgets for which have been decimated over the past number of years.
The reality is that Travellers are not a priority. In the case of Traveller women, they might as well not exist. In America, where racial profiling is an established fact, black women are three to four times more likely to end up in prison than white women. In Ireland, Traveller women are 22 times more likely to end up in prison than settled women. Most of them on meeting the justice system for the first time do not get probation, community service or anything else but go straight to incarceration. These are women who have a life expectancy that is 11.5 years shorter than the life expectancy of women in the rest of the population. It is a life expectancy that is akin to that of the 1960s.
We let them have an all-Ireland Traveller health study, but the conclusions of it were not implemented in the five year term of this Government. If we are to give any credibility to the claim that we support rights for Travellers, recognise their differences and respect them as equal citizens, we must recognise them as an independent ethnic group. It is not a panacea and it will not solve all the issues they face, but it is a starting point. I think particularly of Traveller women who are the most marginalised, with 81.2% without work and who cannot escape domestic violence situations. They need this motion to be passed.
It is estimated that there are approximately 22,000 Travellers in Ireland, perhaps 4,500 families. With regard to the history of the Traveller community, experts say that the separation from settled communities happened 1,000 to 2,000 years ago. That makes it, to my mind and the minds of the experts, a distinct ethnic minority. It is interesting that the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination has expressed serious concern at this State's persistent refusal to regard Travellers as an ethnic minority.
I am a member of the human rights committee in Strasbourg. There are international criteria established for ethnic minorities and the Travellers have satisfied these internationally recognised criteria for the past 20 years. It is beyond belief that in 2015 we should still have to debate this issue and not recognise that they are an ethnic minority. I have some knowledge of this subject because I was chairperson with regard to Traveller accommodation in Waterford and I know many Traveller people in the county, some who wish to be housed and some who wish to stay nomadic. That is their preference. Personally, I would like everybody to be housed in good quality accommodation and so forth but if it affects the Traveller community that they are part of, that must be recognised.
I refer the Minister again to the European Union, the Council of Europe and the human rights committee in Europe. They should be recognised.
Two minutes is not enough time to do justice to this subject. The utterly unspeakable tragedy that occurred in Carrickmines must be the catalyst, if all of the tears are not to be crocodile tears, for radical, urgent and immediate change in how we treat Travellers.
In considering my contribution to this debate and in putting forward amendments, I thought that the first people I should consult should be the Travellers themselves. Incidentally, that should be the guide to our policy, our response to this tragedy and to what is needed. My amendments simply convey to the Minister what representatives of the Travellers said is required. They said, first, that we must establish a public inquiry into what happened in Carrickmines. It is worth mentioning that the Romanian Prime Minister has just resigned amid mass protests in Romania following the death of dozens of Romanians in a fire in a nightclub in the last few days. That should give us pause for thought about our response and our responsibility for what happened in Carrickmines.
They have asked also for the immediate reversal of the 87% cuts that have been imposed on the Traveller accommodation programme, which has led to the appalling situation with Traveller accommodation throughout the country. Those cuts must be reversed. They ask that we enact a series of measures to address State racism affecting Travellers, including the immediate recognition - no messing around, no reviews and no talks - of Traveller ethnicity and a policy of zero tolerance when it comes to politicians or public officials who play around with anti-Traveller racism, which they do all of the time.
The tragic deaths of the two young Traveller families at the Carrickmines halting site has sadly brought a serious problem to national attention. There are 29,000 Travellers in Ireland and 4% of them are living in halting sites. The concept of halting sites as temporary is misleading and erroneous. Providing safe and acceptable sites, with running water, sanitation and electricity, is imperative. It is totally unacceptable that these vital services have been neglected in the austerity cutbacks over the past number of years, leaving living conditions in many of these sites highly hazardous and dangerous as regards health and safety.
The dramatic budget decrease for Traveller programmes from €35 million in 2010 to €4.3 million this year has impacted adversely on all aspects of Travellers' lives, their general living conditions and the social and educational supports in the programmes. The recent tragedy has brought renewed focus on the wider difficulties faced by many in Ireland's Traveller community. The Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission has written to all local authorities in the State to highlight the duty on public bodies to eliminate discrimination in their daily work. The Chief Commissioner, Ms Emily Logan, has confirmed that she has written to the senior management of all local authorities drawing attention to the public sector's duty, provided for under section 42 of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Act, to provide proper necessities for this community.
I ask the Minister and the Government to act on what she has recommended.
I welcome the representatives of the Traveller community in the Visitors Gallery. I fully support this motion. It is a shame on us that it must be debated here at all tonight. Traveller ethnicity should have been recognised years ago, without any debate and without the need for it to be raised in the Dáil tonight.
The tragic events in Carrickmines brought home to many people the conditions in which we, the settled community, force Travellers to live throughout the country.
Traveller men have a life expectancy which is 15 years less than that of the settled community while Traveller women have a life expectancy which is 11 years less. The infant mortality rate in the Traveller community is 3.5 times that of the settled community and the suicide rate in the Traveller community is six times that of the settled community.
That is down to us, the settled community. That is down to every one of the citizens, right across this country, who objects every time proposals are made to help Traveller families. Every one of us has to look at ourselves and look at the decisions we make. When we do this, we are reinforcing the early deaths, the infant mortality and the suicide rate of Travellers across this country. As citizens, we all have to stand up and defend the defenceless in our communities and ensure we provide for everybody. That will be a measure of us as a nation, if we do this properly.
The Government should support the motion, withdraw the amendment and recognise Travellers as an ethnic group within our society. This will then perhaps give Travellers the means to exert those rights and protect themselves.
Deputies Robert Dowds, Tom Barry and Dan Neville are sharing time.
It is a tragedy this motion is before us. Like other speakers, I begin by expressing my sympathy with the Lynch, Gilbert and Connors families over the appalling tragedy in Carrickmines last month.
There is no question there is absolute truth in the figures mentioned by Deputy Pringle in terms of life expectancy, to just take that one very blatant and obvious example of how the Traveller community suffers from discrimination. That can also be seen on the housing front, which is from where this motion arises, and in the unemployment situation. I am aware from my work with the Traveller community in my own constituency, and from my wife's work with Travellers over several years, how difficult it is for Traveller people to, for example, break into the workforce. I remember my wife telling me about a young Traveller woman she had taught who had a job in a drapery store but in order to get that job, she had to disguise the fact she was a Traveller. In a sense, that points very clearly to the question of discrimination.
With regard to the whole question of ethnicity, if the Traveller community has a common view on that issue, I am quite happy that it be granted ethnicity. Given what Deputy Halligan said about DNA examination, it seems the Traveller community split from the more settled Irish community more than 1,000 years ago. Ironically, that makes Travellers probably the most Irish group within this country because most of us, if we look back on our past, will find many aspects of it lead us to other countries as well as to Ireland.
When I was a county councillor on South Dublin County Council between 1999 and 2011, on several occasions we had proposals to build Traveller accommodation. Before I was on the council, there had been quite a number of situations where there was a stand-off between the settled community and Travellers over accommodation. However, in conjunction with other parties - Deputy Crowe will remember this because he was on the council at the time - we made strides because we decided not to make this a political issue. As a result, quite an amount of Traveller accommodation was delivered. It is a pity that was not taken on board by, for example, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, which seems to have done as little as possible. Then, under the guidance of a previous county manager in South Dublin County Council, efforts were made, with some degree of success, to employ Travellers in various sections of the county council. In that sense, in a small way, and I do not want to overstate it, we pointed a way towards the future. It is very important that more effort is made between the Traveller community and the settled community to bring about a situation whereby it is possible for more Travellers to get involved in the workforce.
It would be very easy for me just to sit down at this stage. However, if we are being frank and honest, there is a long story of tension between the Irish settled community and the Traveller community, and it has probably got worse in recent years. Part of that arises from the fact some of the areas of work Travellers would originally have been involved in, such as selling items door to door, and production and mending of kitchen utensils, have gone. It is also the case that, in an urban setting, the whole business of keeping horses, which I know is dear to the heart of some Travellers, has become a difficulty. There needs to be a serious discussion between the settled community and the Traveller community as to how we can best live side by side in that regard. I would like it if we could get to a situation, on a formal basis, where there was regular discussion between the Traveller community and the settled community as to how we can both move forward together.
Some of the fears the settled community have in regard to Travellers are unfounded but, unfortunately, there are examples which do not help. In that regard, it is very good that, for example, a number of Traveller women I know, and Pavee Point, make it clear that, like the settled community, the Traveller community must be subject to the rule of law. However, things sometimes happen that cause real problems. For example, in South Dublin County Council, there was at one stage a loan scheme for buying caravans and, unfortunately, that had to be abandoned because so few of the loans were repaid.
We must try to get something positive out of this appalling negative happening in Carrickmines. I suggest that we set up, on a permanent basis, a forum where there is continual dialogue between the Traveller community and the settled community as to how we can best move forward together so that, on both sides, people can lead fulfilling lives. That is a real challenge for us and it is a challenge we must rise to in order to get away from the situation where life expectancy among Travellers is so much less than it is among the settled community.
We need to get to a situation where living conditions are satisfactory for both the settled and Traveller communities and to a position where Travellers who want to can move into a more settled, permanent situation. If we are to gain something positive from this appalling tragedy, we need to have a regular forum that will point the way to the future.
I welcome the opportunity to speak on this motion. First, I would like to be associated with extending condolences to the Lynch, Gilbert and Connors families. The fire that occurred was such a tragic event that it is difficult to find the words to speak about it. Everybody has been touched by this dreadful event and hopefully this debate will help to focus on the issues and some good might ensue from it.
I welcome the new national Traveller and Roma inclusion strategy which will be in place by 2016. This is a move in the right direction and I will return to this issue later. Communication on this issue is vital. However, I do not agree with the attempt to define the Traveller community as a separate ethnic group. Society is now an open, tolerant society and our cities are now multicultural and multi-religious. This is fantastic. We have become a melting pot of different cultures and religions and are an example to much of the world as to how countries should progress. In that regard, I do not like the creation of artificial divides and labels. I see no benefit to that and believe that what might sound like a good idea, may have unforeseen consequences in the longer term. Therefore, I would prefer to deal with the issues than to create further labels.
I dislike the powerful word that keeps cropping up, which has been used tonight. That word is "racism" and it is used far too frequently. It stifles discussion. People have fears, but the "racism" ticket should not be pulled out each time someone disagrees with another. It ruins discussion and is unfair on both the Traveller and settled communities. If I had my way, that word would not be part of this discussion. We need a more frank and honest approach.
The Deputy must be in denial.
People on both sides have real and justified fears. As mentioned earlier, in the past Travellers had a good rapport with settled communities in rural areas. They worked on the land as seasonal workers and farmers relied on them. However, mechanisation has changed this and people have moved on from that. Many of the traditional roles of Travellers are now gone. We need to work around this.
The issue of accommodation needs to be discussed. The accommodation we think the Traveller community needs is not always what they want. Their culture has a huge interest in horses and these need space and accommodation. I heard a member of the Traveller community say recently that if his book or film was very successful, he would not build a house but would buy a bit of land and put a caravan on it. Travellers want different things and have different aspirations and that is fine. We need proper communication and discussion in order to arrive at a situation where suitable accommodation is available.
We also need to work on the issue of Traveller feuding. We need conflict resolution, because out of control feuding makes people nervous and afraid. We need to tackle this.
On the issue of housing that is purchased for the Traveller community and other groups, there is a perception that we are not getting value and that many of the houses being purchased are purchased at above market value. We need to examine that issue. Some people have suggested that we take responsibility for dealing with accommodation for Travellers away from councillors. I disagree completely. Right across the country, councillors deal with every sector and they are, for the most part, fair minded. While some people might have a different view on councillors, they are accountable to the public. Removing the responsibility for this from public councillors and handing it to people who are unaccountable would be a dangerous route to take. Like all of us, councillors will face the people in the ultimate test, the election.
I deal with many issues in my clinic. Travellers come in to discuss their accommodation needs and I am delighted they feel comfortable enough to do so. However, I also deal with people from the settled community who are genuinely afraid of certain elements within the Traveller community. Some people are terrified and they may or may not be right to feel that way. Communication is vital if we are to break through this difficulty. Nothing will happen without proper communication. We will succeed or fail on this. Mention has been made of the need for more money and the discussion always seems to revert to that. Money alone will not solve this issue. It will help, but will not solve it. We need to deal with the issue in a structured way that allows free speech.
Across the board, our discussion of social housing for both the settled and Traveller communities must deal with the issue of anti-social behaviour. People are afraid that anti-social behaviour will come to their community and they will have to deal with it for the rest of their days. Anti-social behaviour is not exclusive to Travellers, but occurs across the board. If we had a mechanism that dealt effectively and quickly with serious anti-social issues that crop up across the country, many of the people's fears would be relieved. Many people in my area are looking to be rehoused because they are prisoners in their own homes. They are afraid to stay in their houses and are parking their cars away from them because of anti-social behaviour. This issue needs to be dealt with as it is a huge cost to communities. Why should people who are living respectfully in their communities have to leave? This does not make sense.
In order for free speech to work here and for people to be able to express their opinions honestly and in a straightforward manner, we need to take away emotive language like "racism" from the debate and need to start addressing the thorny issues. A conversation happens here, but another conversation happens outside of the House. We need to ensure people-----
The Deputy's language is racist language.
The Deputy must live in another world.
One speaker.
The Deputies opposite may not agree with me, but people come to me who are afraid to speak. I am in the real world, but am not sure what world Deputy Ellis is in, but he is as entitled to his opinion as is everybody else.
One speaker please.
The Deputy is in a bubble.
Free speech brings responsibility with it.
Absolutely. Rights bring responsibilities also. It is important to remember that.
Has the Deputy anything good to say about Travellers at all?
Deputy Mac Lochlainn will have his own time to speak.
Both the reserve and executive functions are important. We need to make sure the reserve functions of councillors are respected and that executive functions are not done without but are passed and are part of the reserve policy. I am worried that if councillors and elected representatives are removed from the process of accommodation, be it for Travellers or otherwise, what we are dealing with now will be worse in the future.
That was a shocking speech.
It was nothing to do with equality.
I welcome the opportunity to speak on this issue. I have experienced a difficulty around the whole area of how the Civil Service system, through no fault of its own probably, deals with illiterate people, whether they are Travellers or not. My office is in Rathkeale and 50% of my community are Travellers. We do not have anti-social behaviour or crime. That is a fact and if anybody wants to visit us they are welcome. Sometimes we feel vilified by the media image or impression that is given of our community. When I talk about our community I am talking about 50% Traveller and 50% settled.
I wish to talk about some specific issues I have encountered. I met a group of six young Traveller women - I am meeting a group of 12 on Friday - who described being called in because they were being cut off from their jobseeker's allowance or another benefit. They have to line up in a queue, which is intimidating for them. They then have to present themselves at a hatch and are given a form which they cannot deal with. They are embarrassed. I have also met one or two from the settled community who feel like this as well. They do not know how to deal with what is required of them or respond. That is one side of it. Inside the hatch is somebody who has to deal with many difficulties, who may have five, six or ten people in a queue and does not have the time to deal with the situation. They may not even have been advised on how to deal with it.
Given our situation in Newcastle West, the employment exchange and Department of Social Protection have a level of recognition but there is an issue for people who are illiterate and have to present themselves at these offices. Even those who are literate often tell me that it is the language they cannot deal with - the words of officialdom. They are not used to dealing with words of officialdom and that does not only apply to the Travelling community but often to the settled community as well. I am highlighting it in these circumstances because I meet this issue regularly.
To give an example of these kind of difficulties, one of the girls came to me and said she was being cut off from her jobseeker's allowance. The social welfare people told her she had to look for a job and asked would she go around to the bars and see could she get a job collecting glasses. She said to me, "Sure, we are not allowed into a bar until we are married". I am just expressing that there is a different culture within the Travelling community that the system does not understand. A book will be published shortly dealing with this area, which is very welcome. I have asked the Oireachtas Library to obtain a copy.
When we - the Travellers or the settled community where my office is - see programmes like "The Town the Travellers Took Over" or the big fat gypsy weddings it must be asked what kind of message is being given. The networks play these programmes over and over again. Maybe it is good TV but do those who produce and present these shows understand there are people they might hurt? It is very easy to offer an inducement to a family of any community to do a programme about how they deal with any of their events, but how does it make everybody else in that community feel about the way they are being presented? We are all entitled to have the type of weddings that we want in our families, whether we are from Australia, America, the United Kingdom, Ireland or from the Travelling community. We are entitled without being almost vilified or suffering implications. Good luck to everybody who has their weddings, in my view.
The next slot is shared by Deputies Dessie Ellis, Peadar Tóibín, Sandra McLellan, Martin Ferris and Gerry Adams. They have five, four, five, four and 12 minutes respectively.
Go raibh maith agat. I commend Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn for proposing this motion, and also the excellent work of Traveller groups like Pavee Point, the Irish Traveller Movement, Minceirs Whiden and the Traveller Women's Forum. Brigid Quilligan made an important point yesterday that Travellers were completely absent from Leinster House. It would be very encouraging if the next Taoiseach were to appoint a member of the Traveller community to the Seanad to begin to change that.
It is important that we as a people challenge prejudices and racism in everyday life. After the Carrickmines tragedy in which five children and five adults lost their lives, I thought maybe we would see an outpouring of humanity by settled people towards Travellers, or at the very least towards this family. Instead, we saw hatred, bitterness and casual racism rear its ugly head across a section of the settled community. It underlined the day- to-day marginalisation of Travellers by wider society and the challenges we face.
It was the tip of the iceberg, unfortunately. In the weeks that followed, we saw middle class, settled people protesting against the housing of an orphaned child because he was a Traveller. Then we had the Taoiseach and a senior Labour Minister speaking of Travellers as if they were second class citizens who could not be trusted to wake their loved ones in well-worn Irish tradition. It is time we faced up to this bigotry at a community and an institutional level. Travellers have a distinct ethnicity, with a language and a culture that must be respected, supported and cherished because they are every bit as Irish as you and me and the communities we represent. They are part of our rich heritage and will always be part of our future.
They, like all citizens, have a right to a home. Many Traveller families have moved out of their communities because of a lack of accommodation and have been placed in private rented accommodation, receiving rent supplement or rental accommodation scheme payments. Local authorities have deliberately abandoned their role in providing Traveller accommodation. Many halting sites have been left abandoned by those charged with their management and the people living there must put up with awful, inhuman conditions. These conditions are a threat to the health and safety of the residents and played no small part in the deaths at Carrickmines.
Over ten years ago Dunsink Lane, which served as a vital link between Finglas and Castleknock, was blocked off with boulders by a large force of gardaí. Some 300 men, women and children were isolated in a cul-de-sac by these boulders, placed there without consultation or discussion. It was a decision taken by politicians along with the local authorities of Fingal and Dublin city.
I warned these people against such measures and stood against them and with the people. They thought they could wall off Travellers from the rest of the community and forget they existed but they were utterly wrong. That blockade remains. Traveller children have grown up with barely a memory of when their home was not blocked off from the rest of the world - a constant reminder that they are not accepted and that they are less than us. We must take the hand of the bigoted or populist politician or county official out of the delivery of Traveller accommodation. We must act against councils that refuse to house Travellers and support those that will. In time, we must form an agency that is directly responsible for Traveller accommodation on a national basis and will combine expertise and knowledge to best provide for the Traveller community and support it to flourish as a distinct group as well as being part of the wider local community.
The tragic deaths of ten men, women and children from the Traveller community in Carrickmines should have been a turning point. It should have given pause for reflection on the part of the settled community regarding its treatment of the Traveller community. Instead it was another excuse for some to spew their hateful bile on comment pages and Facebook feeds. For others, it meant little at all. There was no national day of mourning, official or unofficial. In Wexford, pubs stayed closed as a mark of disrespect. The Connors, Gilberts and Lynches were treated in death as they were treated in life - as less than us and as people to be suspicious of.
We can change this horrible climate of bigotry and distrust but it will not come with well-meaning statements. It will not even come just by well-meaning people challenging casual bigotry. It will come when we begin to reform our society to cherish all the children of the nation equally.
Déanaim comhbhrón le muintir Connors, Lynch agus Gilbert faoin tragóid uafásach a tharla cúpla seachtain ó shin i ndeisceart Bhaile Átha Cliath. Is oth liom a rá go bhfuil caidreamh uafásach agus briste sa tír seo idir an pobal socraithe agus an Lucht Siúil. Dá bharr sin, níl daoine ag iarraidh díriú ar an gcaidreamh seo ar chor ar bith. B'fhearr linn, mar phobal, neamhaird a thabhairt ar an gcaidreamh. Tá nathanna diúltacha, claonta agus leatromacha sa chaint againn gach uile lá. Briseadh croíthe na ndaoine thart timpeall na tíre nuair a chuala siad faoin tubaiste uafásach a tharla cúpla seachtain ó shin. Cúpla lá ina dhiaidh sin, áfach, chonaiceamar drochiompar gránna de chuid den phobal socraithe nuair a rinneadh iarracht bac a chur ar na muintireacha sin socrú síos in aice leo. Tá sé dochreidte go bhfuil a leithéid fós ag tarlú sa tír.
Across Irish society and all the different performance indicators in human life, the people from the Traveller community suffer greatly. Regardless of whether it is life expectancy, health outcomes, education outcomes or suicide rates, Travellers compare disastrously with the settled community. If we look at the unemployment rates among the Traveller community, we can see that it stands at 80%. Travellers have suffered more than the settled community as the labour market has tightened massively over the past number of years due to the recession.
If these factors were associated with any group in Irish society, there would be absolute outrage and it would not take the deaths of unfortunate individuals for this issue to become part of the debate. There would be outrage on a regular basis but the truth of the matter is that because it is happening to people from the Traveller community, it is, by and large, ignored in the political discourse. In a liberal democracy, every individual should be judged on the basis on their individual character. Unfortunately, this is not happening. Once a Traveller speaks, signs his or her name, applies for a job or tries to book an event, the shutters come down across the country.
The fact is that those shutters come down at Government level as well. When the recession hit, Travellers experienced the biggest chop. When it comes to cuts, Travellers are positively discriminated against. We have seen €30 million taken away from Traveller-orientated programmes over the past number of years. To put that in perspective, that is a cut of 88%. I cannot think of any other section of Government expenditure that has been hammered so much.
We have also seen Ministers in the Fine Gael-Labour Party Government actively try to stop Traveller families from gaining accommodation by making representations to local authorities. Right across the country, we see councillors in establishment parties actively using their time against the interests of Travellers. A councillor in Donegal stated that Travellers should live in isolation. A Fine Gael election candidate in the south of Dublin said that giving land in an affluent area to Travellers was a waste of valuable resources. We also see how the media hypes up and sensationalises any story that occurs in this community.
Caithfidh an Rialtas beart a dhéanamh de réir a bhriathar agus tá deis ag an Rialtas an rud ceart a dhéanamh anois. Níl ann ach rud beag ach iarraim ar an Aire Stáit ligean don rún seo rith.
I welcome representatives and members of the Traveller community in the Public Gallery this evening. Discrimination against Travellers is an all too regular occurrence and generally accepted within society. Comments such as "sure aren't they just Irish" and "why don't they just live in houses" are commonplace and are probably some of the more mature comments one is likely to hear. Couple that with the derogatory words used to distinguish them from settled society and it is not easy listening.
Nomadism, or the wish to move around, is an integral part of what it means to be a Traveller. In 1963, Travellers became part of a political discourse, one that viewed their culture as that of wrongdoers. There was a huge political push to coerce members of the Traveller community into assimilating into Irish society, thus allowing a distinguishing part of their culture to fade into the abyss. From that year, to the present day, there have been efforts by successive Governments to advance this approach in the hope that Travellers, as the word implies, would fall into place and assimilate or insert themselves into the cracks and travel no more. This is evident in the institutional discrimination that exists within the policies in these Houses.
All of these attempts have failed and have isolated as well as disenfranchised a lot of people within the Traveller community. It is the whole concept of cause and effect. The failure to recognise their status as a nomadic group of people with a particular lifestyle has left the waters somewhat muddied. I do not deny for one minute that there are problems within the Traveller community but much like any other group, one will always have a percentage of those who will do wrong in the eyes of the law. We in settled society are not expected to speak out on these issues that occur and yet a double standard seems to apply when it comes to Travellers.
It is when this wrong is done in accordance with a long-standing culture dating back well before policy ever existed that it becomes a fundamental flaw within policy and those who construct it. Take for example the "illegal" parking on roadsides or in unused spaces. Why is it that Government cannot provide spaces for Travellers to live in - a space with clean running water and basic electricity that has something above a Third World standard of human waste disposal facilities? The Government should be providing these facilities in every county and should uphold basic human rights.
Travellers' health has suffered severely as a result of long-term Government policy. Traveller men live on average ten years less than settled men while Traveller women live on average 12 years less than their settled peers. With regards to mental health, the suicide rate within the Traveller community is six times higher than that of the settled community.
Education allows people to become empowered. Home schooling or a home school liaison service is a reality for many children, so why not adapt this in a way that suits another type of lifestyle and culture? This in turn can only have positive effects on society as a whole. Education does not just stop at Travellers. The wider population also needs to educate itself in what it means to be a Traveller, and understand, without prejudice, the Traveller culture.
The Equal Status Act 2000 recognised members of the Traveller community as a group not to be discriminated against under the nine grounds of discrimination, although this is largely yet to become evident in practical terms. Traveller culture, and its origins, must be understood and respected. It is only then that we can come together and tackle the social isolation, mental health issues and the criminalisation of a culture.
Not too long ago we had a vote on the human rights and equal status of citizens of our country in the form the marriage equality referendum. We cannot cherrypick those who deserve equality and those who do not: the essence of equality is the fair treatment of everyone. It is time for this House to recognise Travellers as a minority ethnic group.
It is a shame for us that the Carrickmines tragedy took place but if it means that some improvement will happen in the lives of, and attitudes to, Travellers it might be some comfort to the Lynch, Connors and Gilbert families and the wider Traveller community in dealing with their loss. I offer my sincere condolences to the members of the community here tonight and to the wider Traveller community.
We all know that Travellers experience racism and discrimination with the effect that they are disadvantaged in many ways: in getting a job, in having a standard of living compatible with the rest of the community, in their health, life expectancy, the level of education they can attain and above all in the standard of housing in which it is considered acceptable for Travellers to live. There has been a policy among successive Governments to leave the Travellers to their own devices and do nothing about combatting the attitudes to them which are nothing short of racist. It was very annoying to listen to some comments by Deputy Barry. Effectively, what he said bordered on racism.
In the aftermath of Carrickmines we are all, naturally, focusing on the situation of Traveller housing. I am aware of the call from representative organisations for a central agency to deal with Traveller housing and to take that function away from local authorities. I am not surprised by this call, as it is clear that the political will is not there at local or national level to deal decently and humanely with Traveller housing. We can all see as we drive around the country some of those sites on housing estates reserved for Travellers. In many areas halting sites are hidden from public view. This is an indictment of our society.
I remember vividly in 1962 walking home from a football match with five lads like myself, ten and 11 years old. We passed a place known as the "barny brook" where there was a tent pitched by two men in their late twenties or early thirties, and a fire lighting. These men had been travelling around the community fixing pots, pans, buckets and so forth. What has stood out in my mind to this day was the fact that four of us walking by crossed the road, away from these two Travellers. That did not just happen, it was learned. It was the way people looked at the Traveller community, seeing it as different, and that created a sense of fear. It was prejudice and it was wrong.
I live in Ardfert, where there is an integrated approach to Travellers. They go to school, sitting with my grandchildren and my children before them. That was not always the case. There was a time when it was very difficult for Traveller families and children to have an education like the one my children and other people's children have. The problem that continues to exist is the local representatives' lack of responsibility at council and national levels. If we do not show leadership how can we blame others outside that circle? Irrespective of what people think, we have to show leadership and that means giving equal rights across the board to every person in our society. That includes recognising the ethnicity of the Traveller community and making sure it has the same right as we all have, the right to education, to health care and to be free citizens. I ask the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills, Deputy English, to support this motion.
On Tuesday, 20 October I was in Bray for the funerals of Tara Gilbert, who had been pregnant, her partner Willy Lynch, their daughters Jodie and Kelsey and Willy’s brother Jimmy. Two days later I was in Sandyford for the funerals of Sylvia and Tommy Connors and their children Jimmy, Christy and Mary. Sylvia was the sister of Willy and Jimmy Lynch. They were all victims of the fire at the halting site at Glenamuck. In my life I have been to too many funerals but I freely admit that I found these two especially sad and upsetting. I extend to the Lynch, Connors and Gilbert families and to the entire Traveller community my deepest sympathies. Go ndéanfaidh Dia trócaire ar a n-anam. Go raibh síocháin síoraí acu.
Sylvia, Willy and Jimmy’s brother, John, spoke at Thursday’s funeral. His voice frequently faltered as he tried to hold back the raw emotion evident in his face. He described the last day they had all been together:
We had a lovely day. The kids were playing in my garden... But the next morning came the call. I thought it was a hoax call. Then, in a moment, I realised all my family was gone. My brothers, my sister, my sister-in-law, my brother-in-law, my nephews and nieces. The whole lot gone in one go.
Imagine getting that call.
Bhí mé féin, an Teachta Dála McDonald, comhairleoirí áitiúla agus daoine eile ó Shinn Féin ansin chun comhbhrón a dhéanamh leis an phobal Lucht Siúil agus chun seasamh leo go poiblí. The Traveller community, however, needs more than mere sympathy and solidarity. The prejudice and discrimination many Travellers face has worsened over recent years. The response of Governments and the health and educational institutions of the State has been appalling.
The opposition to the erection of a temporary halting site for those bereaved by the Carrickmines fire is deeply disappointing. The decision to provide the families with a site on a parking lot that lacks basic amenities, is an indictment of this and successive Governments. It is deeply shameful. Some people in the settled community blame Travellers for anti-social behaviour and crime. Even if some Travellers, like some in the settled community, behave badly that is no reason to demonise and exclude an entire community. The vast majority of Travellers are decent and good God-fearing people.
Ignorance breeds fear. The only cure for ignorance is knowledge. That comes from education and engagement. Surely all citizens should have the right to receive equal service in shops and pubs, to access education and health services, work and accommodation, on the same basis as all others. Why cannot every Irish citizen enjoy the rights and entitlements that come with that citizenship on the same basis as all others, and have their children treated as we would wish to be treated also? Regrettably this is not the case. Every Traveller child faces a life in which he or she will not be part of wider Irish society but will be part of the most socially disadvantaged group in that society. That child will leave school earlier, have little prospect of work, will suffer ill-health and poverty, and will die younger than one in the settled community. He or she will endure substandard living conditions; will have no access to basic facilities such as sanitation, water and electricity; and will face discrimination in employment and most will never work. Cutbacks in education, health and other services have impacted severely on the Traveller community. The Traveller suicide rate is six times that of the settled community. At the root of all these problems are the unacceptable levels of prejudice, discrimination and social exclusion experienced by Travellers at institutional and other levels.
I am proud to be Irish.
The people of Ireland are no mean people. We hold ourselves in high regard, with some justification. We are creative, innovative and generous. Like all human beings, though, we have our faults. A friend of mine, a very successful businessperson, told me once that the Irish would save someone from drowning, but they would never teach them how to swim. That remark could explain why there is an underlying racism at work in our society which has created its own unique form of apartheid.
In the aftermath of the Carrickmines fire we should up hold a mirror to ourselves as a people. Could it be that our attitude is, in reality, that there is no place in modern Ireland for the Traveller community? This is at odds with the generosity and inclusiveness demonstrated by Irish society in the recent marriage equality campaign, the solidarity shown with refugees from the Middle East, or the amazing amounts of money raised each year by charities for international relief programmes. The widespread expressions of sympathy following the Carrickmines fire have provided some hope this situation could begin to be turned around, but there is an onus on politicians and the Government to ensure something positive, something good comes from this disaster. Caithfimid amharc dáiríre fadtéarmach a thabhairt arís ar an dóigh a chaitheann muid mar phobal leis an Lucht Siúil.
The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality recommended that the State recognise the ethnicity of the Traveller community. The Government needs to act on this recommendation, implementation of which does not need legislation or a constitutional referendum. Such a development would not of itself solve the problems which confront the Traveller community, but it would demonstrate leadership on the issue by the Government and set a clear and positive example. Much more, however, needs to be done. There is among Travellers an articulate grassroots leadership which is well able to voice Travellers' issues and also to raise the level of that community's awareness of their rights. Some of them are in the Visitors Gallery. Cuirim fáilte mhór rompu uilig.
There is also, after decades of discrimination and demonisation, a sense of demoralisation, low self-worth and inferiority among some Travellers. This has to be combated. Yesterday morning I received a letter from a woman member of the Traveller community that illustrates some of the difficulties they face. She wrote:
I applied for a bay in a permanent halting site in 1994. At the time I was 32 years of age with a young family. I am now 53 years old with most of my family reared and I am now a grandmother of 14 grandchildren and I am still on the list for a bay in a permanent halting site. Our site is situated beside a dump and a recycling waste food plant - in the warmer weather we are constantly infested with flies, the whole site is infested with rats, we feel our case is hopeless and I feel with the way things are going I will be dead by the time that they build a permanent halting site.
There is an urgent need to establish a national forum, across the island of Ireland, involving Travellers and members of the settled community, including representatives of all political parties, the Government, local authorities, the health and education sectors and media organisations to plan a way forward. Such a forum could discuss openly and in detail how discrimination and prejudice against Travellers could be confronted, including prejudicial attitudes facilitated by the actions of some politicians and media outlets. D'fhéadfadh sé moltaí a dhéanamh chun oideachas a chur ar an phobal maidir leis an Lucht Siúil. Two weeks ago when I put suggestion this to the Taoiseach in the Dáil, he rejected it. His view is that existing structures can meet this need, but patently they cannot. Therefore, as we approach the centenary celebration of the 1916 Rising and the Proclamation, what kind of society do we want? What kind of Ireland do we want? Do we want the same as we have now? Is this good enough? Did the Proclamation read, "Irish men and Irish women, unless you are a Traveller"? Do we want an Ireland where we put a grieving family in a car park to live as we celebrate the 1916 Rising, or where a woman rears her children and grandchildren on a rat infested, fly infested dump beside a waste food recycling plant, or do we want an Ireland in which we seek to implement the great ideas of equality and human and civil rights that mark the Proclamation as one of the great freedom charters of modern times?
After the Carrickmines fire, there is an onus on all of us to stop and examine what occurred, why it occurred and how Travellers are treated. The Proclamation declares that we are all equal. This means that if the rights of one person are diminished, the rights of all are diminished. This is not solely a legislative issue or a problem about a lack of resources. It is a moral issue. If the Minister of State wants to understand, even in a very small way, how Travellers feel, he should try and put himself in their shoes. How would he look at the world, at Ireland, then? There have been a number of negative telephone calls to our party criticising our decision to table this Private Members' motion. Of course, we could have opted for a safer issue, but what sort of republicans would we be then? We cannot overcome this challenge except by strong and resolute leadership and clear and unequivocal legislation that underpins equality for every citizen. Of course, legislation cannot solve this problem alone. It will only be finally solved when our society embraces the differences among citizens that make up the diversity and uniqueness of the Irish nation. That means that leaders, including the Government, must lead by example. I urge all Deputies to support Sinn Féin's motion and let us begin the work of making our society better for all but especially for those in the Traveller community.
I will answer on behalf of the Minister for Justice and Equality. I thank Deputies for their contributions to the debate. I listened to some of the contributions in the past hour, but I missed the first half of the discussion last night.
Sinn Féin's motion addresses many issues facing the Traveller community and there is no doubt that the Traveller community is one that experiences poorer outcomes. That point is well made in the motion and has been retained in the Government's counter-motion which seeks to take a more balanced approach and reflect the work being done in various Departments to bring about a real improvement in the lives of Travellers and their status in Irish society.
Some €400 million has been invested in Traveller-specific accommodation in the past 15 years. Additional resources provided in the education system are allocated on the basis of identified individual educational need and distributed equally among all children, including members of the Traveller community. Substantial investment has also been made through the local and community development programme, with funding of €1.17 million for the national Traveller partnership in 2015 alone.
None of this is to deny that outcomes for members of the Traveller community in Irish society persistently remain at levels hugely inconsistent with those for the wider settled community, but we need to acknowledge the work that is being done and the resources that have been committed. The Department of Justice and Equality recently launched a comprehensive consultation process, with a view to putting in place a revised national Traveller and Roma inclusion strategy to improve the situation for the Traveller and Roma communities. Phase 1 of the process was an initial round of consultations to identify the priority themes to be addressed in a revised strategy. Some 37 submissions were received and they are being analysed and considered by the Department, from which a paper on which to base the next phase will be ready for publication very shortly. Phase 2 of the process will be based on this paper which will contain suggested high level objectives within each of the agreed themes identified in phase 1. A number of public consultations will take place nationwide in early 2016 and further submissions will then be sought. These submissions will inform the final phase which will focus on precise actions under each objective and include continued consultation with the national Traveller and Roma integration strategy steering group to develop a draft strategy for Government approval. It is intended that the revised national strategy will run from 2016 to 2020 and be in place as early as possible in 2016.
Turning to the recognition of Travellers as an ethnic group, it is worth mentioning that, at the request of the Minister of State at the Department of Justice and Equality, Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin, the four national level Traveller NGOs provided a paper setting out why being recognised as an ethnic group was important to Travellers and what it would mean to them.
The paper sets out in a very positive way what Travellers see as the advantages of recognition. It does not claim that there would be any onerous legal implications or that there would be any implications whatsoever for public expenditure, nor does it claim that there are any international human rights laws or obligations that recognition would somehow conjure into being. Concerns Departments had formerly about legal implications and financial costs have been resolved. In other words, there are no cost implications and almost no legal implications. As indicated in the Government's amendment, this is an issue that is being examined in the context of discussions on to the proposed new Traveller and Roma inclusion strategy and we know that in the Minister of State, Deputy Ó Ríordáin, we have a passionate advocate for change and for recognition.
The divide between the Traveller community and the majority community has been all-too apparent in recent weeks. We need a two-way process. The majority community needs to affirm and recognise the value of Traveller heritage and culture, and move away from the all-too-easy practice of stereotyping all members of the Traveller community based on the anti-social behaviour of a few. Another part of the reality is the State and its agencies need to improve the effectiveness of our responses to the needs of the Traveller community. Within this there must be meaningful consultation with the Traveller community whose voice should be heard and should influence service responses.
The Government has some areas of disagreement with the Deputies' proposal, but not with the spirit and intention of the motion. The Sinn Féin motion calls for the establishment of an all-Ireland forum on Traveller issues. While the Government is not convinced of the utility of precisely this approach, nonetheless there may be a value in the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality continuing a national-level dialogue with Traveller interests and all other stakeholders, following the recommendations of its earlier report on this issue. I propose that the committee might initiate a national dialogue involving Travellers and the settled community, including representatives of all political parties, central government, local authorities, health and education sectors, and representatives of media organisations, to facilitate the development of greater mutual understanding between Travellers and the settled community, and respect for the heritage and culture of Travellers and their contribution to the wider society.
I call Deputy O'Brien who is sharing time with Deputy Mac Lochlainn.
I listened to the speech by the Minister of State, Deputy English. He said a number of things that are very pertinent to the debate. While he can correct me if I am wrong, he said there was no financial or legal impediment to recognising Traveller ethnicity. If there is no financial or legal impediment to granting ethnic status to Travellers, one wonders why we are not doing it.
The process is pretty simple and was outlined last night by the Minister of State, Deputy Ó Ríordáin. The Taoiseach needs to come in here and make a statement to this Chamber. He needs to write a couple of letters to the various organisations within the EU stating that we are now recognising the Traveller community as an ethnic group. We then need to look at any legislative changes. The Minister of State, Deputy English, has already said there are no legal impediments to it, so we should just get on with it.
The Minister of State said he agreed with the spirit of the Sinn Féin motion but disagreed with one aspect of it, which is the creation of an all-Ireland forum. He may call me a cynic, but the creation of an all-Ireland forum would expose this State's attitude to the Traveller community because given that Travellers within the Six Counties already have their ethnicity recognised, it then exposes the hypocrisy of this State in not recognising that very same ethnicity. I believe that is the reason the Government is opposed to an all-Ireland forum.
I listened to Deputy Barry's speech and was shocked by some of what he said. If one needs any reason to understand why Travellers suffer from discrimination, one only has to look at some of Deputy Barry's statements. He brought into the debate on ethnicity the issue of anti-social behaviour and then went on to say that he was not talking about Travellers specifically but about people in general. As the motion is about recognising Traveller ethnicity, by even bringing in issues such as anti-social behaviour the Deputy is implying that is one of the reasons we should not grant recognition of ethnicity to the Traveller community.
Deputy Barry also said that people were coming to his office to express concerns about Travellers who may be getting accommodation in the locality. He said that they have genuine fears. I would like to know what they are. Plenty of members of the Traveller community come into my office. My constituency has three halting sites. We have a large Traveller community in Cork North Central and they form an integral part of the community. Some of them are living in conditions of squalor. What the families in the Spring Lane halting site on the north side of Cork city have to endure is beyond belief. The Minister of State should visit the site.
Returning to what Deputy Barry said about people expressing genuine concerns about Travellers getting accommodation next to them or within their estate, he failed to mention something which may not happen in his constituency but certainly happens in mine. People come to my office and express concerns about members of the settled community who may be getting a house near them. There is almost an impression that if a Traveller moves in next to one, one will see an increase in crime rates and anti-social behaviour but that is not the case. I know that from first-hand, as there are Travellers who live in my housing estate. They are some of the most decent people - salt of the earth. If one had a problem in the morning they would be the first to knock at one's door. That is the reality.
The problem we have in this Chamber is that there is no leadership. As with the issue of marriage equality, the public is so far ahead of those of us in this Chamber when it comes to Traveller ethnicity that we need to get our head out of our backside and get on with the job.
I also listened to Deputy Barry's speech and his appeal that we respect free speech. I point out to him that hundreds of Irish citizens felt it was acceptable to log on to the journal.ie website and give a thumbs-down to expressions of sympathy, including a simple "rest in peace" and "my heart goes out to the families" from decent Irish citizens about the fact that ten human beings - ten Irish citizens - including five children and a pregnant woman were burnt to death in the most horrific circumstances. Hundreds of our citizens gave a thumbs-down to expressing sympathy. Deputy Barry says we need to stop using the word "racism". It reminded me of one of the greatest advocates of equality and human dignity in human history, Abraham Lincoln, who once said, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt".
We support the amendment tabled by Deputy Boyd Barrett which strengthens the motion and reflects Deputy Boyd Barrett's commitment to the Traveller community and his partnership with them. However, we will not support the Government's amendment. In reference to the Traveller community we use terms such as "experience endemic racism and discrimination"; the Government will not use those words. We use words such as "prejudice", "discrimination" and "social exclusion"; the Government will not use those words. We state that many Travellers live in "intolerable substandard living conditions"; the Government will not use those words.
We called for an all-Ireland Travellers forum. I wish to read the relevant part of the motion because it is an important contribution in terms of what we seek. We seek to "establish an all-Ireland forum involving Travellers and the settled community, including representatives of all political parties, central government, local authorities, health and education sectors and representatives of media organisations, to be tasked with", and we outline the responsibilities it would have. It is an eminently sensible proposal but it has been rejected by the Government.
The motion also calls on the State to "recognise" Traveller ethnicity. We did not use the word "grant" because Travellers are an ethnic minority in the State. They are as Irish as anybody in these Houses and they are a unique part of the fabric of this nation. They have a unique history. It is a unique story that is part of our story and it needs to be recognised. To recognise Traveller ethnicity is not to recognise separateness, it is to be inclusive, to bring them into the embrace, warmth, love and promise of the Republic. That is what it means. We in this Chamber need to recognise the ethnicity of the Traveller people. What we hear in response from the Government is that it will consider it. That is not good enough. It is no longer good enough to consider the matter anymore.
The leaders of the Traveller community have called for a new national Traveller accommodation consultative committee or some new agency that will take ownership of the delivery of Traveller-specific accommodation throughout the State. Local authorities have failed in this regard. There is a lack of local leadership. We have seen some of that spirit evident in the Chamber tonight. In the absence of local leadership, we need to give responsibility for the issue to a new authority but that call has been rejected.
I wish to quote from some of the comments made last night by the Minister of State, Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin, and Deputy Ciara Conway, both from the Labour Party. It is important to do so. The Minister of State said:
I do not accept the premise that we should deal in the terms of popular opinion when advocating the rights of a minority. Outside of a referendum, I do not believe we should deal in focus group equality or that we should rely on polls in regard to how we should proceed on issues of equality. The fact that advocating for the rights of a minority might be unpopular is surely the reason we should collectively strive to ensure that equality is realised.
[He continued] As alluded to earlier, since the foundation of this State we have experimented with what may be termed "sameness". Sameness is a lie. Since the foundation of this State people with mental health challenges have been incarcerated. Approximately 200,000 people with mental health issues were incarcerated in the 1950s. Young mothers who were unmarried were told that they were wrong and had to be placed in laundries. People who had troubled backgrounds and behavioural difficulties were also told that they were wrong and had to be sent to industrial schools ... Sameness is a lie while diversity is the truth ... The fact that this measure would not be popular, would not do so well in a poll or might be rejected by a focus group is the very reason we have to support it. Let us reject focus group equality.
The Minister of State's speech was tremendous and we applaud it. We also note the comments of Deputy Ciara Conway. This is important in terms of her Government colleagues who will vote for the amended Government motion tonight. She said:
I have read some of the briefing information I have received from the Department. I could hear the frustration in the voice of my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin. It will be noted that he did not read from a script because I am not sure the Department [or indeed his Government colleagues] [are] completely on board with what he had to say.
She referred to the briefing note she received in which three steps were outlined. That is a reference to the three simple steps the Oireachtas justice committee agreed on a unanimous, all-party basis for the Taoiseach or the Minister for Justice and Equality to stand up in this historic Chamber and recognise, on behalf of the State, the ethnicity of the Traveller people. The second step is to write to the international human rights bodies who have demanded this for decades to tell them we have finally done that, and then to work with the Traveller communities on the necessary changes and new dispensation that is required. It is simple stuff.
Deputy Conway also stated:
Essentially, we are waiting for someone to make a speech and someone else to write a letter, while people's lives hang in the balance. That is simply not good enough. If it involved any other group in society, we would not be waiting for someone to stand up and make a speech and for somebody else to write a letter.
These are powerful words. If those Deputies are present, I imagine they will vote with the Government. They will do so even though they have expressed their frustration and anger, in good faith, with their Government colleagues. I will not attack them for that but I will say to those Government colleagues who did not speak in the Chamber, or the likes of Deputy Tom Barry and others, that they need to read what the Minister of State and Deputy Conway said, what we have said and what has been said by various Deputies across the House, namely, that it is time to be on the right side of history.
When we first talked about women's rights - the right of women to take seats in parliament, the right of women to go out and work and to receive equal pay - those ideas were unpopular when they were first raised. When we talked about rights for the LGBT community, lesbian and gay citizens, it was not popular. We know that talk of Traveller rights tonight is not popular. That is because for decades there has not been the necessary leadership. We are haunted by the ghost of the 1963 report from the Commission on Itinerancy, one of the most shameful reports in the history of this State, that demonised and criminalised 40,000 Irish citizens - men, women and children - some of whom are here today. That is the stain we must remove. That is the ghost we must take away. We need to have a new beginning.
In the seats of the Gallery are the leaders, the men and women of the Traveller community who have spent their lives as second-class citizens in this State and who have been denied the promise of the words of the 1916 Proclamation. During the 100th anniversary next year, let us bring them all back into the Gallery to watch their Taoiseach or Minister for Justice and Equality, whoever that might be, finally, belatedly, recognise their culture, their dignity, their beauty, their humanity, their contribution and their part in our history. That is a day I long for, and we will see it.
Amendment put:
The Dáil divided: Tá, 57; Níl, 39.
Tá
- Bannon, James.
- Barry, Tom.
- Breen, Pat.
- Butler, Ray.
- Byrne, Catherine.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Carey, Joe.
- Collins, Áine.
- Conaghan, Michael.
- Connaughton, Paul J.
- Coonan, Noel.
- Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
- Costello, Joe.
- Coveney, Simon.
- Creed, Michael.
- Daly, Jim.
- Deering, Pat.
- Dowds, Robert.
- Doyle, Andrew.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- English, Damien.
- Feighan, Frank.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Fitzpatrick, Peter.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Harrington, Noel.
- Hayes, Tom.
- Heydon, Martin.
- Humphreys, Kevin.
- Keating, Derek.
- Kehoe, Paul.
- Kelly, Alan.
- Kyne, Seán.
- Lawlor, Anthony.
- Lynch, Ciarán.
- Lyons, John.
- McFadden, Gabrielle.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- McGrath, Mattie.
- McHugh, Joe.
- Mitchell, Olivia.
- Mitchell O'Connor, Mary.
- Murphy, Dara.
- Murphy, Eoghan.
- Neville, Dan.
- O'Donnell, Kieran.
- O'Donovan, Patrick.
- O'Mahony, John.
- Perry, John.
- Phelan, John Paul.
- Ring, Michael.
- Spring, Arthur.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Stanton, David.
- Tuffy, Joanna.
- Twomey, Liam.
- Wall, Jack.
Níl
- Adams, Gerry.
- Aylward, Bobby.
- Boyd Barrett, Richard.
- Broughan, Thomas P.
- Calleary, Dara.
- Collins, Joan.
- Colreavy, Michael.
- Coppinger, Ruth.
- Crowe, Seán.
- Daly, Clare.
- Dooley, Timmy.
- Ellis, Dessie.
- Ferris, Martin.
- Fleming, Tom.
- Grealish, Noel.
- Halligan, John.
- Healy-Rae, Michael.
- Higgins, Joe.
- Keaveney, Colm.
- Kelleher, Billy.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
- McConalogue, Charlie.
- McGrath, Michael.
- McGuinness, John.
- McLellan, Sandra.
- Murphy, Catherine.
- Murphy, Paul.
- Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
- Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
- O'Brien, Jonathan.
- O'Sullivan, Maureen.
- Pringle, Thomas.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Stanley, Brian.
- Tóibín, Peadar.
- Wallace, Mick.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Paul Kehoe; Níl, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Pádraig Mac Lochlainn.
Amendment declared carried.
Question put: "That the motion, as amended, be agreed to."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 58; Níl, 39.
Tá
- Bannon, James.
- Barry, Tom.
- Breen, Pat.
- Butler, Ray.
- Byrne, Catherine.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Carey, Joe.
- Collins, Áine.
- Conaghan, Michael.
- Connaughton, Paul J..
- Coonan, Noel.
- Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
- Costello, Joe.
- Coveney, Simon.
- Creed, Michael.
- Daly, Jim.
- Deering, Pat.
- Dowds, Robert.
- Doyle, Andrew.
- Durkan, Bernard J..
- English, Damien.
- Feighan, Frank.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Fitzpatrick, Peter.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Harrington, Noel.
- Harris, Simon.
- Hayes, Tom.
- Heydon, Martin.
- Humphreys, Kevin.
- Keating, Derek.
- Kehoe, Paul.
- Kelly, Alan.
- Kyne, Seán.
- Lawlor, Anthony.
- Lynch, Ciarán.
- Lyons, John.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- McGrath, Mattie.
- McHugh, Joe.
- Mitchell, Olivia.
- Mitchell O'Connor, Mary.
- Mulherin, Michelle.
- Murphy, Dara.
- Murphy, Eoghan.
- Neville, Dan.
- O'Donnell, Kieran.
- O'Donovan, Patrick.
- O'Mahony, John.
- Perry, John.
- Phelan, John Paul.
- Ring, Michael.
- Spring, Arthur.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Stanton, David.
- Tuffy, Joanna.
- Twomey, Liam.
- Wall, Jack.
Níl
- Adams, Gerry.
- Aylward, Bobby.
- Boyd Barrett, Richard.
- Broughan, Thomas P..
- Calleary, Dara.
- Collins, Joan.
- Colreavy, Michael.
- Coppinger, Ruth.
- Crowe, Seán.
- Daly, Clare.
- Dooley, Timmy.
- Ellis, Dessie.
- Ferris, Martin.
- Fleming, Tom.
- Grealish, Noel.
- Halligan, John.
- Healy-Rae, Michael.
- Higgins, Joe.
- Keaveney, Colm.
- Kelleher, Billy.
- Kitt, Michael P..
- Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
- McConalogue, Charlie.
- McGrath, Michael.
- McGuinness, John.
- McLellan, Sandra.
- Murphy, Catherine.
- Murphy, Paul.
- Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
- Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
- O'Brien, Jonathan.
- O'Sullivan, Maureen.
- Pringle, Thomas.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Stanley, Brian.
- Tóibín, Peadar.
- Wallace, Mick.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg; Níl, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Pádraig Mac Lochlainn.
Question declared carried.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.20 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 5 November 2015.