Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 10 Mar 2016

Vol. 906 No. 1

Sittings and Business of Dáil: Motion

The Taoiseach

I move:

“That, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, the Dáil on its rising today shall adjourn until Tuesday, 22nd March, 2016 at 2.30 p.m., there shall be no Order of Business within the meaning of Standing Order 28, and accordingly the only business to be transacted on that day shall be as follows:

— Statements on European Council Meeting, the proceedings on which shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 1 hour 45 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply:

— the statement of the Taoiseach and of the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin, Labour, AAA-PBP, Independent4change, Social Democrats and the Green Party or a member nominated in their stead, shall not exceed 10 minutes in each case, and such members may share their time;

— a Minister or Minister of State shall take questions for a period not exceeding 20 minutes; and

— a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 5 minutes;

— Statements on the Council of Agriculture Ministers Meeting, the proceedings on which shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 2 hours and the following arrangements shall apply:

— the statement of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin, Labour, AAA-PBP, Independent4change, Social Democrats and the Green Party or a member nominated in their stead, shall not exceed 10 minutes in each case, and such members may share their time;

— the statement of each other member called upon shall not exceed 5 minutes in each case; and

— a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 5 minutes;

— Statements on Housing and Homelessness, the proceedings on which shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 2 hours and the following arrangements shall apply:

— the statement of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin, AAA-PBP, Independent4change, Social Democrats and the Green Party or a member nominated in their stead, shall not exceed 5 minutes in each case, and such members may share their time;

— the statement of each other member called upon shall not exceed 5 minutes in each case; and

— a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 5 minutes; and

on the conclusion of the statements, the Dáil shall adjourn until Wednesday, 6th April, 2016 at 2.30 p.m., there shall be no Order of Business on that day within the meaning of Standing Order 28, and accordingly the only business to be transacted on that day shall be as follows:

— Statements on Dáil Reform, the arrangements of which will be ordered on that day; and

until further notice, all divisions demanded in the House shall be taken manually.”

An Ceann Comhairle

We will proceed with the debate. I call Deputy Naughten.

Deputy Denis Naughten

I will be brief because I have already expressed my reservation on the wording of motion 5c. Agriculture is a very important issue in my constituency, in both Roscommon and Galway, and the motion as currently worded is unfair as five out of the 11 representatives from both Roscommon and Galway are excluded from the debate. I accept what the Taoiseach said and I look forward to the amendment in that regard.

The biggest single constitutional role we have as Members is to make sure that the Government is accountable to the people. If we do not amend motion 5c to include written parliamentary questions it will mean that the Government and the public service have got away scot free for nearly two and a half months and so I ask that the motion be amended to facilitate the submission of written questions for reply on 22 March.

The third point is a procedural one to which either the Chief Whip or the Taoiseach can respond. My understanding is that Labour Party Members are still part of the Government. If that is the case, why is provision made in the motion before us for the Labour Party to speak? Are there now two halves of the Labour Party, one that is part of the Government and one that is on the Opposition benches? I would welcome clarification as to why provision is made for the Labour Party in the motion.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I support all three motions. There are various points one could make but I will make just two. In the consideration of Dáil reform we should not confine ourselves completely because how the Dáil works relates to how the Seanad works and also relates to the strength of local government. The decentralisation of power is one of the solutions to the ills of our democracy. It is a question of more democracy, both in this House and beyond it. We will not solve issues relating to Seanad reform or further and better local government reform but they should not be excluded from the consideration of how that process will work.

I agree with Deputy Naughten that we are in exceptional times. Deputy Micheál Martin said the situation is not exceptional. It is not unprecedented, nor is it unique in the sense that there are a number of other countries in Europe and generally across the western world where the political systems are in a very stressed and fearful state because people for a variety of complex reasons are also in a fearful and stressed state. There is a lot of uncertainty. That makes these particular circumstances unique, due to the international environment more than anything else. In those circumstances, on the first day of this new Dáil, we must enter a slight caveat and express a concern. As Deputy Naughten said, we have no ability to ask questions of Ministers. Ministers will attend European Council meetings that are addressing highly complex issues. The Taoiseach will go to the European Council next week to consider migration and other issues that are not everyday issues. This is not a time when an interim or caretaker Government can easily manage the process while not being in a position to take significant decisions.

If we end up in a situation where the public service is the interim Government and it ends up taking very significant decisions with no proper democratic oversight and, in effect, with no democratic mandate, it is something we will have to keep a very close eye on as we go through this process. I just wanted to enter that caveat. It is not unprecedented or unique but I argue that the circumstances are very special, particularly internationally, and require us to take care. They require that any caretaker Government takes care of any actions it takes and that there is a certain urgency in providing the democratic oversight that is needed.

Deputy Michael Moynihan

I take this opportunity to congratulate the Ceann Comhairle and wish him every success in his role as Ceann Comhairle of the Thirty-second Dáil. There have been various discussions all afternoon on the current situation. Fundamentally, if we are to reflect on what the people said to us at the ballot boxes on the last Friday in February 2016, it is that they have sent us to Dáil Éireann to find solutions for the situations that they, their families or communities are in, to debate those situations and find solutions which will serve them best. In the current circumstances, with the diverse view across the floor of Dáil Éireann, reform is needed so that a Government can be formed under a different format to ensure that it reflects the views across the Chamber and finds solutions for the very serious problems that affect both urban and rural Ireland, families, older people and, right across the spectrum, people with disabilities. We have a duty to the people who put us here to make sure we find solutions for those problems.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Very profound questions have been tabled by Deputies and put to the House on the accountability of a Government that does not command a majority in this House. The issue of parliamentary questions has been raised. The solution put forward that we would have policy debates and make policy determinations in the absence of a new Government is fundamentally flawed. We have to have a new Government because otherwise who is to respond to fundamental policy issues? This is not a debating Chamber alone; it is a Chamber of decision-making that has consequences.

Deputy Paul Murphy

There are Ministers. There are caretaker Ministers.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I listened carefully to everything that was said. I believe that saying that we respect other people's point of view is more than rhetoric. Everybody is entitled to a view on this. This House has a responsibility to elect an accountable Government with all speed. The notion that we can have fundamental policy debates that alter national policy without a Government or without knowing the composition of a Government reduces this to a debating Chamber as opposed to a policy decision-making Chamber. That is an important point to make.

I have two other points before I conclude. A point was made by Deputy Naughten and I wondered why he sidled down to me to ask me whether I had resigned or not. I did not realise it was to arm himself for his contribution. I noticed that in two of the debates, there is provision for the Labour Party to participate as a separate entity but in the third debate on housing, there is not. I do not know if there is a procedural reason the Labour Party should have a view separately from the Government on the European Council meeting and the Council of Agriculture Ministers meeting but not on housing. We need clarity on that. Perhaps in the circumstances, each political party or grouping would have provision to have a separate view on these matters - because clearly as parties we do - as well as an interim joint Government perspective on them.

Since many amendments have been proposed, I formally propose an amendment to No. 5c that immediately after the first paragraph, which states "accordingly the only business to be transacted on that day shall be as follows", the first business would be a report to the House by the Taoiseach on the progress made on the formation of a Government.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

With respect to ministerial accountability, it is absolutely important that Members have the opportunity to table parliamentary questions. I concur with the last speaker that the quicker the Government is established, the better. In the interim period, we have a caretaker Cabinet with Ministers who preside over their respective portfolios and Departments. As health spokesperson prior to the dissolution of the last Dáil, there are key questions that I would like to pose on matters. I want to know how these matters have progressed over the intervening period. The same Minister holds that responsibility. Deputy Naughten has referred to written parliamentary questions and, whether that was intentional or not, I want to be able to pose questions on the continuing stewardship of those Ministers if we find ourselves in any protracted hiatus period. It should be accommodated in terms of the amendment to No. 5c regarding the extended sitting of the Dáil on the Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. The facility should be there for Ministers to come in and answer questions properly tabled by Members of the House, not on the cut and thrust of policy, but to find out exactly what the position is on certain very important matters. It is information which I have no other means of extracting. As a democratically re-elected Member of this House, I want to be able to continue to perform that role of holding to account whoever is at the helm of the Department of Health. Others will wish to do the same with regard to other Departments. That should be specified very clearly in the provision of the additional time for the week following next week. If it is in order, I formally propose that amendment be incorporated into the construct of the three sitting days which I hope we will all now agree to facilitate in the week leading into Easter week.

Deputy Carol Nolan

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle, agus gach dea-ghuí i do phost nua. As a new Deputy, to say I was disheartened to see this in front of me would be an understatement. To be expected to come in for a sitting and to have statements is an absolute farce. We need questions and answers. Ministers are being paid out of taxpayers' money, so we are entitled to answers. In addition to that, on our way in here this morning, most of us passed people on the street not too far from the gates of this building. It is not good enough. I represent my constituency in which there is a serious health crisis, as there is around the country. We have questions and we are entitled, as elected Members, to pose questions. The people who were elected to those positions are expected to answer them at the very least. I do not accept this and I concur with everything that members of my party have said here today. I ask that parliamentary questions be included in that. Obviously, those Ministers will not form policy but there should be accountability. For decades, there has been no accountability of Governments. Hopefully, that will change but it will certainly not go unnoticed with us in Sinn Féin.

An Ceann Comhairle

Do the Taoiseach or Minister of State care to respond to those issues?

Deputy Michael Moynihan

Following on from the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin's point, when the Dáil meets on 6 April, should we not have on the Order Paper that the business of that day should be the nomination of Taoiseach?

What is down is that no business should be conducted on that day apart from a report on Dáil reform. Should the nomination of Taoiseach not be on the Order Paper for 6 April?

Deputy Willie O'Dea

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

Could I ask that all these items be addressed by the Taoiseach or the Minister of State when they respond? The other areas that seem to be suggested are three-day sittings, parliamentary questions and the extension of the Tuesday sitting to provide primarily for a debate on health and housing. Am I correct?

Deputy Pearse Doherty

And on water charges.

An Ceann Comhairle

Mea culpa - and water charges. Would the Taoiseach or Minister of State care to respond on these matters as well as on the important issue of a report? Deputy Howlin has suggested a report on the progress towards electing a Taoiseach.

Deputy Michael Moynihan

Nomination.

An Ceann Comhairle

On the Fianna Fáil side, there is the actual nomination of a Taoiseach. There is a wide variety of proposals there.

The Taoiseach

First, if it is of any use, I have no objection to the House coming in at 10.30 a.m. on 22 March to enable people to have more time to make known their views here. The list of issues raised are just a few of an endless number and until there is a realistic opportunity to put together a Government, I am not sure the Deputies who raise the issues will get the best response. With all due respect to everybody, while it is simple to say it. it is not as easy to do it. I already have given my commitment in the sense of working to provide the people with a working and long-lasting Government. In that sense, I am quite prepared to report progress to whatever extent has been achieved or is under way in order that Members will be updated, as they will be anyway outside the forum of the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Fianna Fáil proposal is that the meeting on 6 April would address the issue of the election of a Taoiseach.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

If the House is in a position to take such a proposal, that would be a good thing.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Members could decide on 6 April.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Yes, absolutely.

Deputy Simon Coveney

If the House is in a position to do it, we will do it.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It either will be conclusive or inconclusive-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Absolutely.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----and that decision must be made one way or another.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I agree.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, wait now. The Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

I would say on that issue that if we are in a position to do that, there is no objection to it but it may or may not be possible. The Deputy has a responsibility in this.

Deputy Micheál Martin

We will know on the day. I simply think we should put that on the agenda.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy has a responsibility in this too.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Everybody has.

The Taoiseach

Yes, I agree.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I do not believe it would be useful, were Members not in that position, to go through four, five or six more votes if they were all going to be inconclusive, but the provision should be there. If somebody is in a position to believe he or she would carry it, the facility should be on the Order Paper to do that.

Deputy Gerry Adams

A Cheann Comhairle-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Are we agreeing the provision should be on the Order Paper to do that? Is that agreed?

Deputies

Yes.

The Taoiseach

I agree it should be on the Order Paper and, if it is appropriate to do so, to move it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes. Deputy Adams.

Deputy Gerry Adams

A Cheann Comhairle, we have put a series of amendments-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, I am about to come to them now.

Deputy Gerry Adams

-----and other Deputies have done the same. I ask that it be put to a vote.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes. To summarise, a composite set of proposals from Sinn Féin seems to be suggesting additional sittings on 23 and 24 March, that the statements on housing and homelessness should be taken for longer than is proposed, and the proposal that provision should be made for a motion on water charges has been mentioned by both Sinn Féin and Deputy Paul Murphy. In addition, of course, there is the question of contributions being made by Independent Members. I think it already has been accepted that the Independent Members will make contributions. The key issues are the inclusion of a debate on water charges, further sittings on 23 and 24 March and an extension of the time for debate on housing and homelessness.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

And that parliamentary questions-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, and parliamentary questions.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

----- would be replied to orally.

An Ceann Comhairle

Oral parliamentary questions. Can we have a-----

The Taoiseach

I cannot agree to all that.

An Ceann Comhairle

You cannot. Okay. I am in your hands.

The Taoiseach

We will be as accommodating as possible to Members and to new Members in particular but there are a range of debates and issues there. In the absence of the formation of a Government, it is difficult to give Members the detailed up-to-date responses they require.

An Ceann Comhairle

Okay. I do not wish to start a debate on this again but I am going to put the motion. Deputy Jonathan O'Brien, very briefly.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

I wish to clarify what is being proposed. We are proposing the motion on the Order Paper, which was submitted by Sinn Féin in respect of water charges, would be taken on the Tuesday.

The Taoiseach

No.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Members have not seen it.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

It is not my problem that the Deputy did not see it.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Only Sinn Féin is important.

An Ceann Comhairle

Wait now, let the man-----

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

The second one is on the three-day sitting, which would enable the statements on housing and health and the other statements Deputies have sought to be extended in order that each Deputy would have an opportunity to contribute to those debates. However, the particular item in respect of water charges is the motion Sinn Féin has submitted.

An Ceann Comhairle

For 22 March.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

Yes, not statements.

Deputy Paul Murphy

To end water charges.

An Ceann Comhairle

A motion to end water charges on 22 March.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

Yes, which Sinn Féin has already submitted.

Deputy Simon Coveney

We have to form a Government first.

An Ceann Comhairle

It would appear to me to be premature to be tabling motions on policy issues in advance of the formation of a Government.

Deputy Micheál Martin

May I raise a point of order?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It was unclear today, to be honest, who could table motions for today. In fact, Fianna Fáil had advice 48 hours ago that we could not table motions. We did table a motion subsequently on housing. If it was to be known that the next session of the Dáil could entail motions from political parties - I respectfully suggest that Independent groups and political parties could likewise table motions - it would be far more sensible to have a thematic approach to it in respect of the key issues. This is because the only way in which one can deal with water charges is via legislation. Rather than just a substantive motion in the House, one would need legislation in respect of the deletion or amendment of the Act or whatever.

Deputy Simon Harris

Which needs a Government.

Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor

You need a Government.

Deputy Micheál Martin

All Members can start to table motions and if some believe only their motions can be debated on a certain day next week, I respectfully suggest that other parties are also entitled to have their motions debated. We need a bit of common sense as to how the House is to be organised in the interim period.

Deputy Seán Crowe

It is all common sense.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I have no objection to having two or three days but they should be on the issues of health, housing, water and agriculture, which I believe already is catered for in respect of the Council meetings. I simply make that important proviso.

An Ceann Comhairle

Wait now, yes.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Taoiseach has stated, in response to Sinn Féin's request and amendment that Ministers should come in, answer questions and be accountable, that he does not see how this is possible.

Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor

We must have a Government first.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I do not see how it is impossible. They are still Ministers who still have their Departments and civil servants. An Teachta Ó Caoláin pointed out that this is business. How on earth does any Deputy here who was in the previous Dáil follow through on issues, advocacy and cases with which he or she was dealing? Members are being told this must be put on hold. As for Sinn Féin tabling these motions, with respect it is not just Sinn Féin motions. Sinn Féin tabled these motions and they were allowed and accepted by the Ceann Comhairle's office. We now are moving an amendment because the Government wanted to do nothing. We are moving an amendment that, as part of the rejigged schedule or clár, it be for three days and that the issue of water charges be taken on 22 March. We have no problem if other parties wish to table counter-motions or other motions and so on.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are going way beyond, at this point, what normally would happen on the first meeting of a Dáil.

Deputy Simon Coveney

A Cheann Comhairle, did we not have agreement among the Whips? Was there not agreement among the Whips?

Deputy Gerry Adams

Is that not an improvement?

An Ceann Comhairle

We are going far beyond what was initially agreed.

Deputy Paul Murphy

On a point of order, we are the Dáil. We have the right now to make a decision about when we come back, what we discuss and in what way we discuss it. That is what we currently are discussing and I appreciate the Ceann Comhairle must knit together a series of different proposals etc. to come up with something. However, I do not accept the idea that we cannot pass motions of this Dáil until we have a Government. It is not legally or constitutionally true but it also is not politically true in the sense that Members here have positions.

There is all this talk of new politics and having motions where people take positions on policy as opposed to on whether they are in or out of government is part of that talk. The proposal to have thematic debates, as referred to by Deputy Martin, is a good one. These would include thematic debates on housing, health and water. However, it should not be limited to statements. It has to include the right of parties to have their motions debated and, ultimately, voted on. Therefore, we should discuss the Sinn Féin motion on water charges. We should have a right to put forward a motion on water charges which would place an emphasis on the boycott. Fianna Fáil should have a right to put forward a motion on water charges which says whatever Fianna Fáil is going to say on them and Fine Gael and the Labour Party can defend their positions. We can have a thematic debate on the right of parties to put forward motions and the Dáil can then choose to pass those motions or not to do so. I do not see why we cannot agree to do that on 22, 23 and 24 March.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

We have had a lot of discussion, as I mentioned earlier, on political reform. A theme going through that discussion was that we need to empower the Parliament and take more power away from the Executive, that is, that we are the Parliament and we make decisions. A motion has been put forward to the Ceann Comhairle's office that has been accepted. It is quite simple. It will end water charges and abolish Irish Water. As stated by Deputy Paul Murphy and as referred to by Deputy Micheál Martin, any other Member or party can amend that motion. However, we have an amendment before this House, which was the first amendment put down before it, relating to the amendment of the order of business for 22 March. That amendment is to fulfil the mandate which the majority of Deputies were elected on, namely, to scrap water charges.

Deputy Simon Harris

A motion would not do that.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

We can do this. It is up to us. It is within our gift to decide on it now and we will push this to a vote. Sinn Féin wants this motion on the agenda on 22 March at 10.30 a.m. We will discuss it. We can look at amendments from different parties and then vote on it. That is the gift we are seeking and that is the gift we are giving to the Fianna Fáil Party which claims this is its red line issue. It should be welcoming the fact that we have placed this on the agenda and given it the opportunity to fulfil the promise it made to the electorate just a couple of weeks ago. I move to push the amendment we have tabled to a vote.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us do precisely that then. Deputy Pearse Doherty is proposing that we sit on Tuesday at 10.30 a.m. to consider a Sinn Féin motion-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Can we see the motion?

Deputy Micheál Martin

Hold on a second.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

Can we see the motion?

Deputy Simon Harris

It should be circulated to all Members of the House

Deputy Brendan Howlin

If Sinn Féin wants to vote on it, let us see it.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

Let us adjourn so.

An Ceann Comhairle

Do we have a copy of the motion? It does not appear-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I propose we adjourn for ten minutes, so the motion is circulated to all Members.

Deputy Micheál Martin

On a point of order, a schedule has already been proposed for 22 March.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

It has not been agreed.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is proposed but not yet agreed.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Yes, but there is no reason we cannot agree if we are in on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. Normally when parties have individual motions, it is through Private Members' allotted times. Other parties might want to have different motions-----

Deputy Gerry Adams

Let us reform the Dáil.

Deputy Simon Coveney

It cannot be done on the hoof.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I have no difficulty with adjourning the Dáil but I have a real difficulty with one party attempting to dominate it-----

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Deputy Martin has had plenty of practice of that.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Fianna Fáil has done that for decades.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----and trying to suggest that the entire Dáil-----

Deputy Billy Kelleher

Sinn Féin did not recognise the Dáil for decades.

Deputy Micheál Martin

On a point of order, I am basically saying that if we are coming back for a day, there has to be collective agreement by all parties-----

Deputy Gerry Adams

We are asking for three days.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----in terms of the issues. That is what I am saying

Deputy Seán Crowe

That is what the vote is about.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Let us keep the Tuesday simple. Through the Chair, if I may, it seems to me that people had agreed in terms of the interim day.

Deputy Gerry Adams

We did not agree.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I said earlier that we had no objection if people want to come in on 23 and 24 March to deal with other issues. However, the Whips and the various representative groups have to get together to work it out.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

Hear, hear.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is not as if one group can stand up unilaterally and say that it has a motion and everyone else must agree to table the motion that day.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Then vote against it.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is not a way to organise this House at all, and I have no issue with the issues. That is my point.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

If I could just explain to Deputy Martin what we are actually proposing-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

This is play acting now.

An Ceann Comhairle

I think we fully understand what is being proposed.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

I do not think Deputy Martin does.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am speaking to the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

I think we do.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am speaking through the Chair.

Deputy Simon Harris

He is show boating now.

Deputy Simon Coveney

We have agreed a mechanism for Dáil reform. We should let it work.

An Ceann Comhairle

Could we come back to basics? The situation is that we have agreed-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

One day.

An Ceann Comhairle

-----to meet on 22 March. The Taoiseach is suggesting that we could make that a full day meeting. What will be on the agenda remains to be finalised.

Deputy Micheál Martin

We agreed it.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

We agreed.

An Ceann Comhairle

We can finalise that now. We can also decide whether or not we sit on 23 and 24 March. However, the question before us concerns the sitting on 22 March. I take it that the Taoiseach's suggestion that we might sit from 10.30 a.m. is agreed. Is it agreed? Agreed. I take it that the consideration of housing and water are issues for discussion on that day.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

It is the motion.

Deputy Simon Harris

There is no motion.

An Ceann Comhairle

Has that been agreed?

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

No.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle, I appreciate this is the first day for many of us and your first day over this Dáil. You have the first amendment that was being put before the House. I have asked you for a vote. It is very clear. There is a motion-----

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

Which we have not seen.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

We proposed to put a motion before this House to be debated on to abolish water charges at 10.30 a.m. on Tuesday, 22 March.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

This is bullying.

A Deputy

It is not bullying.

Deputy Simon Harris

Where is the motion?

Deputy Pearse Doherty

The motion is there and the effect of it will be to abolish water charges and I call for a vote.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

On what?

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

The motion we will move-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Brendan Howlin

If this is Sinn Féin's idea of reform-----

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

It is better than Deputy Howlin's idea of reform anyway.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

The Whips have not agreed it. Does Deputy O'Brien want to change the whole procedure on Whips' agreement?

Deputy Simon Coveney

Sinn Féin is playing politics.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am anxious to facilitate all individuals and all party groupings but please do not try to create a situation that is entirely confused. Let us be quite certain as to what we are doing.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

Can we please have a little order and a little normality in our approach to these things? We have an agreement to extend the sitting time for next Tuesday.

Deputy Joan Burton

Tuesday week.

The Taoiseach

On 22 March.

An Ceann Comhairle

An Order Paper will have to be produced in respect of Tuesday, 22 March-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Tuesday week.

An Ceann Comhairle

All of those motions will appear on that Order Paper. I take it there will be an Order of Business in the normal way on that Tuesday.

Deputies

No.

Deputy Simon Harris

There is no legislative programme.

Deputy Micheál Martin

On a point of order, will other parties be entitled then to submit motions to that Order Paper? That is the point.

Deputy Joan Burton

Of course, they would have to be.

Deputy Micheál Martin

There have to be, I would suggest, meetings between the Whips to agree it.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

Hear, hear.

Deputy Simon Harris

Hear, hear.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I do not want to be awkward but we cannot have a situation where one party wants to dominate the agenda of-----

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

We do not want to-----

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

We want to facilitate debate.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is in essence what is happening. I have no objection to motions but every party must have the rules laid out before them in advance. That was not the position 48 hours ago. We were told we could not table motions. That is the advice we received. All I am saying is that if it is now open to people to put forward motions to be considered on 22 March, then every political party, grouping and Independent should be entitled to put forward motions.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

On the Tuesday.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is the only point I am making.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am getting to a point of-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is an important point of principle, a Cheann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is an important point of principle and I am afraid the House will have to forgive me as a novice in the Chair as I get to a point where I am beginning to understand the circumstances in which we find ourselves. The circumstances are these, as I understand it. The motions that have been put forward are motions that would normally be taken in Private Members' time.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Exactly.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

Hear, hear.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

Correct.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not what is envisaged for the sitting next Tuesday.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

Tuesday week.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Dáil reform process may give rise to a vastly different methodology for dealing with Private Members' business-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Exactly.

An Ceann Comhairle

-----but the Dáil reform package is not yet in place. In fact, the consultation on it has not taken place. What is being asked of us is to depart completely from the process that is agreed towards a process on which we have not even yet had consultation never mind agreement.

The Taoiseach

Correct.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

That is not the case.

An Ceann Comhairle

For absolute clarity, I must operate under the Standing Orders as they currently exist.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

I look forward with enthusiasm to their being changed but I cannot accept the proposal being made at this stage.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is out of order and we cannot proceed on that basis.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Okay-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Hold on. I will hear one more comment from Deputy Doherty on it and then we will proceed with matters.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

For clarity, a Cheann Comhairle, is it not up to the House to agree? No one is trying to force anything on anyone.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Yes, you are.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

You are.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

It is up to the House to agree it. If the House does not agree to accept the motion, we will accept that.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Pearse Doherty

What we are doing-----

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

If it is outside Standing Orders, it is outside Standing Orders until they are changed.

An Ceann Comhairle

The House has agreed. Will Deputy Pearse Doherty sit down for a second?

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I am not finished my comment but-----

An Ceann Comhairle

You are not, but will you sit down for a minute?

The House has agreed to take three motions. That was at the discretion of the House. There is no provision within Standing Orders, which remain to be amended, to do the business that you are proposing to do and it is not open to the House here today to amend Standing Orders because, first, there is no proposal to do it and, second, the necessary consultation to give effect to it has not taken place. You are not in order. Will you finish your point? We will then move on.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

First of all, the House has not agreed to accept three motions. We have not agreed on that part yet. We have only agreed-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

They are on the Order Paper.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Deputy Micheál Martin, you have been here for a long time. The Order Paper is presented-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the two Deputies please address the Chair and let us keep a little bit of order?

Deputy Pearse Doherty

A Cheann Comhairle, the Order Paper is presented not as a fait accompli but for agreement of the House. I am pointing out to you that the Order Paper has not been accepted. You indicated in your earlier comments that the Order Paper was open to amendment. Is that right?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

What Sinn Féin is putting forward very clearly is that we are amending the Order Paper for the sitting of Tuesday, 22 March to allow for this House to agree to scrap water charges.

Deputy Joan Burton

You are seeking to amend the Order Paper.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

The Ceann Comhairle can have an interpretation that, under normal procedures, this would be part of Private Members' business but to my knowledge, there is nothing in Standing Orders that prevents the House from agreeing to accept a motion on Tuesday, 22 March to abolish water charges. If I am incorrect on something that would prevent this House from agreeing that, you may point it out to me. Otherwise, I press this amendment.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

They are trying to amend Standing Orders.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not think you can press the amendment for the simple reason that it is not in order. It is not compatible. The advice I am receiving is that it is not compatible with Standing Orders.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Under what Standing Order is the House prevented from agreeing a motion?

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

You cannot change Standing Orders ad hoc.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is the Taoiseach's prerogative to order the business of the House.

Deputy Gerry Adams

We do not have a Taoiseach.

Deputy Joan Burton

Actually, we have.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

He has not resigned yet.

An Ceann Comhairle

Standing Order 28 is the one we are dealing with. I accept Members' goodwill but we are getting to a point where the question arises as to what are we about here.

Deputy Michael McGrath

The Chair has ruled.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

What about showmanship?

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Government had a position that the Dáil was going to be adjourned until 6 April.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

No, until 22 March.

Deputy Gerry Adams

That was conveyed to our Whip and our Whip said that was not acceptable to us. We want these issues dealt with. We also put these issues in to the Ceann Comhairle's office; other parties may have been lackadaisical about doing that but we were not and the Ceann Comhairle's office accepted the motion. Others have reasonably asked to see the motion but it is up to the Ceann Comhairle's office to supply the motion. Now you are saying, a Cheann Comhairle, that Standing Orders do not allow this motion that has been tabled by us. Then let us put a motion to suspend Standing Orders to allow that to happen.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

They are seeking unilateral change when we are talking about reform.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The crux of the issue is this - the Taoiseach said it a few moments ago - there was no intention of meeting until 6 April, as I have said. The simple question was put as to whether the business of the last Dáil can be pursued so that Ministers can answer questions and the Taoiseach said that cannot happen. I do not agree with that. We would like to put a motion to suspend Standing Orders so that we can propose our amendment.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

That is out of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not intend to suspend Standing Orders. The motion you proposed is appropriately taken during Private Members' business.

Deputy Simon Coveney

It is a motion no one has seen.

An Ceann Comhairle

The proposed sitting is not a sitting to deal with Private Members' business. I think that is perfectly clear and I do not intend having further debate on it. I am going to proceed to put No. 5c. I am not taking any-----

Deputy Paul Murphy

Can we not at least have a debate on statements on Irish Water?

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

You will have plenty of time, Deputy.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

It is the same business. I will come to the parliamentary questions. The issue about Irish Water, which is the point Deputy Murphy is raising, is similar to that being raised by Sinn Féin.

Deputy Paul Murphy

I proposed to amend it for statements on Irish Water to be added. No arguments have been given against that and I want to push it to a vote. I propose that we have statements on Irish Water and water charges on Tuesday week.

An Ceann Comhairle

What you are advancing is a variation on a theme and, again, it is more appropriate to Private Members' time.

Deputy Paul Murphy

It is not more appropriate. What is listed here is statements on a series of topics and I am making a proposal that we amend No. 5c, as I said in my contribution.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am making a ruling on it and I am sorry I you disagree with me, but-----

Deputy Paul Murphy

No, I am putting it to a vote. I want this amended to include a discussion of water charges. In no sense is that out of order.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

This is what Dáil reform looks like.

An Ceann Comhairle

You are not putting it to a vote. We will be putting the motion in a moment.

Deputy Paul Murphy

I am proposing an amendment to the motion and I want the amendment to be voted on and that is absolutely my right. There is nothing in Standing Orders to prevent it. I am not calling for Private Members' business, I am calling for the addition of an item.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

Is this the new Dáil?

Deputy Pearse Doherty

A Cheann Comhairle, I believe - you may correct me if I am wrong - that you may not have the authority to say that is not allowed. You mentioned earlier that it is the prerogative of the Taoiseach to set the Order of Business. My understanding is that you have a responsibility to ask the Taoiseach if he would accept that amendment.

Deputy Micheál Martin

No, he does not.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

No, it is by agreement with the Whips.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

If the Taoiseach is open to having statements on amending-----

An Ceann Comhairle

You misunderstand my role and the role of any Ceann Comhairle. I am going to put the question.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

If the Taoiseach is open to an amendment under the Standing Orders, as we have already done with the 10.30 a.m. sitting, then it can be permitted.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

The Deputy should respect the Ceann Comhairle. This is Dáil reform. Why is the Ceann Comhairle giving him so much latitude? He is being rude.

An Ceann Comhairle

We have debated this ad nauseam. I propose to put the motion. The question is-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Whatever about your argument on our motion - it sounds a bit spurious and slavish to the established way of Dáil working-----

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Deputy McDonald would know all about that.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I am astonished that you would blankly refuse to accept an amendment from Deputy Murphy looking for statements on Irish Water. That is not properly a matter for Private Members' time in any way. With all due respect, I do not believe you have the authority to simply disregard an amendment that a Member of this Chamber wishes to make. It would be preferable for the motion to be taken. You have refused to take our amendment. You cite Standing Order 28, the Taoiseach's prerogative and Private Members' business. In the manner in which you have responded to Deputy Murphy, might it be that your objective is simply to keep the issue of Irish Water off the agenda entirely?

(Interruptions).

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

The Deputy wants to bully her way through. It has been ruled on already. Deputies cannot move amendments on the hoof.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

It is an abuse of the Dáil.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

That is how it sounds to me. If you would not mind, a Cheann Comhairle, and we all appreciate that this cannot go on all night, where Members wish to propose amendments, I think it is for you to facilitate that process, not to knock people back on the first day of the Thirty-second Dáil that apparently was so committed to Dáil reform.

An Ceann Comhairle

I think your comments are deeply cynical but I am hearing what you are saying and am most anxious to facilitate Members. The reality is that the motions before us are motions in the name of an Taoiseach and it is the responsibility of the Taoiseach to order the business of the House. That is why the motions appear in his name.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Ask him.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Taoiseach is going to comment, can we have silence for him please?

The Taoiseach

I have already said that the Dáil should come back at 10.30 a.m. on 22 March. This morning there were three matters which were agreed to be discussed on 22 March.

Deputy Gerry Adams

They were not agreed.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

They were agreed by the Whips.

An Ceann Comhairle

Can we let the Taoiseach answer?

The Taoiseach

You have a very responsible Whip in the Sinn Féin party. The agreement was that there would be statements on the European Council meeting. The agreement was that there would be statements on the Council of Agriculture Ministers meeting and that there would be statements on housing and homelessness.

I think these are three substantial issues and meeting from 10.30 a.m. will allow Members extra time to discuss them in the House. That was by agreement this morning.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

There was no agreement.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am proceeding to put-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

He is misleading the House.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

Nobody consulted us on that.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputies to take their seats.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

I ask the Ceann Comhairle to-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy O'Brien, I do not want to be in conflict with any Deputy here on day one.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

Neither do I.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask you to take your seat please. I am going to put the motion.

Deputy Paul Murphy

I would like to amend the motion.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no provision for that.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

He cannot put forward an amendment on the hoof.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am advised that you cannot bring forward new matters and, therefore, you cannot amend the motion as it appears on the Order Paper. If you could, I would be more than willing and anxious to facilitate you, but I will not facilitate you in acting contrary to the current set of Standing Orders. Kindly resume your seat.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Can I make a point of order? We have already done it in regard to nomination of Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

No. Kindly resume your seat. The matter has been ventilated.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Can I make a point of order before we vote?

An Ceann Comhairle

Make your point of order.

Deputy Paul Murphy

We have already amended what we dealt with because we added an item proposed by the Labour Party to discuss the question of the nomination of Taoiseach.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

No, we did not. That was for 6 April, not 22 March.

Deputy Paul Murphy

I, as a representative of the Anti-Austerity Alliance-People Before Profit, am now proposing a further amendment to our business, which I raised in the debate, on the statements on Irish Water and the water charges. When we dealt with the Order of Business during the last Dáil term, amendments were often put and there were votes on them, although they were not agreed by the Taoiseach. I do not understand why we cannot agree to discuss it on Tuesday week, or at least vote on it now as an amendment.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am putting the question.

Question put: "That the motion, as amended, be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 100; Níl, 34.

Tá

• Aylward, Bobby.
• Bailey, Maria.
• Barrett, Seán.
• Brassil, John.
• Breathnach, Declan.
• Breen, Pat.
• Brophy, Colm.
• Browne, James.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Burke, Peter.
• Burton, Joan.
• Butler, Mary.
• Byrne, Catherine.
• Byrne, Thomas.
• Cahill, Jackie.
• Calleary, Dara.
• Canney, Seán.
• Cannon, Ciarán.
• Carey, Joe.
• Casey, Pat.
• Cassells, Shane.
• Chambers, Jack.
• Chambers, Lisa.
• Collins, Niall.
• Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
• Coveney, Simon.
• Cowen, Barry.
• Creed, Michael.
• Curran, John.
• Daly, Jim.
• D'Arcy, Michael.
• Deasy, John.
• Deering, Pat.
• Doherty, Regina.
• Donohoe, Paschal.
• Dooley, Timmy.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Farrell, Alan.
• Fitzgerald, Frances.
• Fitzmaurice, Michael.
• Fitzpatrick, Peter.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Fleming, Sean.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Harris, Simon.
• Harty, Michael.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Heydon, Martin.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Humphreys, Heather.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kelly, Alan.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Kyne, Seán.
• Lahart, John.
• Lawless, James.
• MacSharry, Marc.
• Madigan, Josepha.
• Martin, Micheál.
• McConalogue, Charlie.
• McEntee, Helen.
• McGrath, Mattie.
• McGrath, Michael.
• McGuinness, John.
• McHugh, Joe.
• McLoughlin, Tony.
• Mitchell O'Connor, Mary.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Murphy O'Mahony, Margaret.
• Murphy, Dara.
• Murphy, Eoghan.
• Murphy, Eugene.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Naughton, Hildegarde.
• Neville, Tom.
• Noonan, Michael.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• O'Brien, Darragh.
• O'Callaghan, Jim.
• O'Connell, Kate.
• O'Dea, Willie.
• O'Donovan, Patrick.
• O'Dowd, Fergus.
• O'Keeffe, Kevin.
• O'Loughlin, Fiona.
• O'Rourke, Frank.
• O'Sullivan, Jan.
• O'Sullivan, Maureen.
• Phelan, John Paul.
• Rabbitte, Anne.
• Ring, Michael.
• Rock, Noel.
• Ryan, Eamon.
• Scanlon, Eamon.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Stanton, David.
• Troy, Robert.
• Varadkar, Leo.

Níl

• Adams, Gerry.
• Barry, Mick.
• Brady, John.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Buckley, Pat.
• Collins, Joan.
• Collins, Michael.
• Coppinger, Ruth.
• Crowe, Seán.
• Cullinane, David.
• Doherty, Pearse.
• Donnelly, Stephen S.
• Ellis, Dessie.
• Ferris, Martin.
• Funchion, Kathleen.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Kenny, Martin.
• McDonald, Mary Lou.
• McGrath, Finian.
• Mitchell, Denise.
• Munster, Imelda.
• Murphy, Catherine.
• Murphy, Paul.
• Nolan, Carol.
• Ó Broin, Eoin.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• Ó Laoghaire, Donnchadh.
• O'Brien, Jonathan.
• O'Reilly, Louise.
• Quinlivan, Maurice.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Stanley, Brian.
• Tóibín, Peadar.
• Zappone, Katherine.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Michael Moynihan; Níl, Deputies Jonathan O'Brien and Ó Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin.

Question declared carried.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.17 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Tuesday, 22 March 2016.