Topical Issue Debate

Broadband Service Provision

Deputy Robert Troy

I welcome this opportunity to contribute to this debate. When I submitted this Topical Issue this morning, I was not aware that the Minister was taking questions today. I understand that similar questions have been posed by some of my party colleagues and other Members. That is a clear indication of how serious the lack of broadband provision in rural areas is. I know the Minister is coming fresh to the Department and I genuinely wish him well in his role.

The previous programme for Government promised to provide 95% of houses and businesses with broadband by 2015. The current programme for Government promises to have 750,000 additional homes and businesses provided with broadband by 2020. In his reply to a priority question earlier, the Minister alluded to aspiring to reach that target. I have a great fear that target will not be reached. The digital health index for Ireland was published today. A study found that one in four Irish SMEs has no digital presence. A quarter of the firms surveyed stated that inadequate broadband infrastructure was a reason for them being offline.

If we are serious about supporting our SMEs and job creation in the regions outside the capital, we must put in place the necessary infrastructure. A business such as Mr. Crumb in Castletown, Finea employs 100 people and has no proper broadband. When the owner of that business has to send big documents electronically he needs to go into the Mullingar Park Hotel to avail of its broadband.

Green Farm Foods in Rathowen is another business in my constituency employing in excess of 130 people. It has poor-quality broadband and it is paying through the nose. In my village, I have satellite broadband. When it rains, it does not work. When it rains, I cannot even send a WhatsApp message or a Telegram message because it does not work. Having a satellite broadband service that does not work when it rains is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.

Will this Government, unlike its predecessor, live up to its commitment in this area? Will it ensure adequate broadband services are rolled out throughout rural Ireland in the not too distant future? When my three constituency colleagues and I recently attended a meeting with the Longford business community at the Longford Arms Hotel, a Deputy who supports the Government allayed the fears of local business people by telling them not to worry and assuring them that they will have broadband within six months. While I hope he is right, I suspect on the basis of the reports emanating from the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources that he is not, given that the tender will not be issued to the preferred contractor until June 2017 at the earliest. Perhaps the Minister will give me a clear indication of what exactly he intends to do to ensure the people of Ireland do not have to wait a further four years for broadband services and the commitment in this regard to which he signed up in the programme for Government will be delivered. The commitment that was given in the last programme for Government was not delivered. It was reneged on.

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Denis Naughten)

I thank Deputy Troy. We spent much of the afternoon dealing with this issue on Question Time. I have looked at the digital index. I read the figures in relation to small and medium-sized enterprises, SMEs, this morning. Things are on an upward trajectory in that regard. The percentage of SMEs that are offline has decreased from 25% to 17%, or approximately one in six. The percentage of SMEs with a website has increased from 65% to 72%. The percentage of SMEs that can process sales online has increased from 8% to 19% and the percentage of them that can run analytics online has increased from 5% to 16%. The owners of 27% of the SMEs that do not have websites attribute that to not having a good Internet connection. We cannot ignore this problem. We are introducing the national broadband plan to deal with this and other issues.

Approximately 116,000 direct and indirect jobs are supported by the digital economy at present. Approximately 68,000 of them are directly linked to the digital economy. The digital economy in Ireland is worth approximately €21.4 billion. It is expected that it will account for 7.9% of GDP by 2020. Traditional industries, such as farming and the retail sector, are increasingly reliant on technology to compete nationally and globally. Broadband is essential to the delivery of traded services, including internationally traded services, and public services. The digital economy is growing. It is essential that its benefits are felt in every city, provincial town and rural area. In this context, the delivery of high-speed broadband to every premises in Ireland is a top priority for the Government. A Programme for a Partnership Government contains a commitment to deliver the national broadband plan as a matter of priority. This is being achieved through measures to incentivise and accelerate industry investment and an ambitious investment programme by the State in areas where industry will not invest.

The commercial telecommunications sector has invested over €2 billion in upgrading and modernising networks which support the provision of high-speed broadband services. This investment is expected to continue as further services are rolled out over the coming years in the blue area of the high-speed broadband map, which is available on www broadband.gov.ie. The Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources is continuing to monitor this commercial deployment. The Department has a dedicated mailbox for queries about the blue areas of the map. I encourage people who are having difficulty getting broadband to make contact using the e-mail address in question, broadband@dcenr.gov.ie. The areas marked amber on the high-speed broadband map represent the target areas for State intervention. The profile of the area to be addressed by the State intervention strategy shows that it includes 601 business parks, 62,226 SMEs, 63,440 non-farm businesses and 80,266 farms, or approximately 95% of all farms.

The procurement process to build a State-funded network that is capable of delivering high-quality high-speed broadband with a download speed of at least 30 Mbps and an upload speed of at least 6 Mbps, to be available 99.95% of the time, is in train. Five responses were received from prospective bidders in the first stage of the competitive procurement process by the deadline of 31 March last. I expect that in the next month, the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources will move to the second stage of the process, involving the extension to qualifying bidders of an invitation to participate in dialogue. The third stage, which follows the dialogue process, will involve the issue of final tender documentation. Following the submission of final tenders, it is expected that we will award the contract by June 2017. The roll-out will start at that stage in conjunction with my colleague, the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht.

Deputy Robert Troy

The Minister has cited figures in support of his contention that we are "on an upward trajectory", but he did not talk about the ComReg figures which show that approximately half of all businesses and more than a quarter of all homes have broadband speeds of less than 10 Mbps. This is shocking given that the US Federal Communications Commission has declared that speeds of below 25 Mbps can no longer be referred to as broadband. I know the target of 30 Mbps we are setting is not the ceiling, but it is our target nonetheless. I accept that some people have broadband, but the serious issue here is that 25% of people do not have access to any broadband services. Many businesses that have access to broadband have a very poor and limited supply. More and more business is moving online as people change how they do business. If we want to support rural businesses, we need to ensure they have access to high-quality broadband.

I understand the process that is there. I have read the Department's website. I have looked at the various stages. While I do not doubt the Minister's personal commitment in this regard, I would like to know what is different now, compared to what was promised by the previous Government. How can we be assured that the figures and target dates that are being set now will be met? How can businesses that are waiting as they consider putting a capital investment in place be assured that the electronic infrastructure they need will be put in place within the timeframes outlined by the Minister? Every previous commitment that has been made in terms of timeframes has been broken. The Minister spoke earlier about 2022, but the commitment in the programme for Government relates to 2020. I would like to conclude by asking a question. A Deputy made a commitment in Longford three weeks ago that broadband will be in place within six months. Is that actually true or false?

Deputy Denis Naughten

I will explain the timelines in relation to this. The Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources has employed experts to assess the roll-out of the national broadband plan across the amber areas. It has received feedback from all of the telecommunications companies. They have said it will take between three and five years to roll out the plan to every single home in Ireland. They have said approximately 60% of the homes and businesses will get broadband in the first two years. I cannot guarantee someone whose home is up on the side of a mountain that he or she will have broadband within six or eight months. That is the reality of it. Our intention under the national broadband plan is to bring high-speed broadband to every single premises in Ireland. No one will be left behind in this respect.

We are on an upward trajectory in relation to the digital economy, which represents approximately 6% of GDP in Ireland today. It is anticipated that the Irish digital economy will grow to approximately €21.4 billion, or 7.9% of GDP, by 2020. Deputy Troy was somewhat disingenuous in the statistics he presented to the House. According to the digital health index, those involved with 27% of the SMEs that do not have websites have said they do not have websites because they do not have good Internet connections. It is not the case that 27% of premises in this country do not have Internet connections.

I am not happy with the quality of service many of them get and want to see it significantly improved. We are not saying businesses will get a minimum of 30 Mbps broadband. Under this competitive process, businesses will have to inform us as to what they believe is a basic adequate service, which would be significantly higher than 30 Mbps because we realise businesses require more.

The Deputy should encourage businesses not trading online to do so. There is a trading online voucher available through local enterprise offices, which is 50:50 funded for businesses of ten employees or fewer and up to a maximum of €2,500. On average for every business which has availed of this voucher, their sales have increased by one fifth, the number of staff they employ has increased by one third and two thirds are now trading internationally.

Waste Disposal

Deputy John Curran

I am pleased the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government is in the Chamber to deal with this matter. The issue of pay-by-weight for household waste has been raised in this Chamber on the Order of Business on two occasions. Quite frankly, the responses were not specific, detailed or satisfactory. While I recognise the measure was not introduced by the Minister, it now falls to him to deal with it. Back in January, the then Minister introduced the pay-by-weight regulations. The first obstacle was that there was to be a charge for green bins. Subsequently, that matter was dealt with.

I support the principles in terms of increasing recycling and the diversion of waste. When the previous Minister introduced the scheme, he was specific on it when he said:

Analysis using EPA, Environmental Protection Agency and CSO, Central Statistics Office, data will show that 87% of households will see a reduction in their waste bills, 8.5% will see no change and a small number of households may see a higher bill.

That is not happening and that is the crux of the problem. Increases that people are experiencing are significant, not 2% or 3%. One reason is the flat charge has gone up significantly. When the Taoiseach spoke in the Dáil on this matter, he indicated charges set were 11 cent for a black bin of residual waste and 6 cent for a brown bin of organic waste. These are minimum figures. The reality is that the charges vary. The black bin will be around 35 cent for most of the waste companies in my area and 23 cent for the brown bin. These charges are consistent across Dublin.

The Taoiseach indicated people could shop around and change but it is not as simple as that. Over the past several weeks notification of the new scheme has been sent out to individuals who have been able to calculate what this means for them. One person in my constituency, on a pay-by-weight scheme for several years, paid €360 last year. Next year, with the same company, the charge will be €469, a 30% increase for no change in service.

The Taoiseach indicated the Minister was monitoring the system and the Tánaiste indicated the Minister will have meetings with the providers next week. There is concern that these increases are significant and far larger and wide-ranging than had been anticipated. Will the Minister seriously consider suspending the 1 July deadline until this matter is resolved satisfactorily? The increases are way above anything anticipated. The only reasonable solution is for the Minister to negotiate with the providers to ensure there is fair competition and the structure meets the guidelines that were there in the first place. They do not at the moment and the increases are way beyond it.

Deputy Bríd Smith

In 2003, I went to prison along with former Deputy, Joe Higgins, Deputies Clare Daly and Mick Barry and 24 other people mainly from around Dublin. We were imprisoned because of a High Court injunction against protests which took place against the county councils for refusing to take bins. They were refusing to take bins because people had boycotted bin charges. The fundamental reason for not paying the charge, similar to the campaign not to pay water charges, was that if we started paying a charge on an essential service, it would be privatised. In turn, it would become the possession of greedy profiteers who would behave unscrupulously and push up charges as the sky is the limit. That is exactly what happened.

All these years later, I am sitting here, an older woman with the memories of that and all of those who went to prison, mainly women. There were 15 women in the Dóchas Centre alongside me. It is on the record that we were fighting to stop the privatisation of an essential service. That service was introduced in this and other cities in the late 1890s because of cholera, a highly infectious disease which spread across cities because there were no refuse services. The local authorities brought in rescue services, which they charged for through rates and through different forms of taxation later on.

This is where the real problem that we are facing today started. It is the legacy of neo-liberal government, mainly under Fianna Fáil because it was in power for most of the time, while the previous Fine Gael Government continued it. Somebody has to call a halt. Last week, I raised this issue on questions to the Taoiseach but he did not seem to know what was going on. Yesterday morning, when it was raised again, he still did not seem to understand what was going on. He does not seem to understand that, when one puts a 200% increase on an essential utility bill on ordinary households, one may as well crucify them because they find it so difficult to meet those demands.

I have sent dozens of e-mails I have received on this issue to the Taoiseach. While I receive the odd acknowledgement, I do not receive any reply from him saying he is shocked and did not realise what was going on. People are e-mailing me regularly with the actual breakdown of their charges. People calculate these charges because they are working on tight budgets and many of them cannot afford these increases. People are looking at charges going from €180 to €330, from €82 to €216, from €20 a month to €34 a month. These are unsustainable.

Anti-Austerity Alliance-People Before Profit will put down a Private Members’ motion to be debated next Tuesday calling for the Minister to amend the statutory instrument he recently signed when pay-by-weight was introduced. The amendment should state the annual standing charge should be linked to the consumer price index only-----

Acting Chairman (Deputy John Lahart)

The Deputy is over time.

Deputy Bríd Smith

-----meaning the waste companies cannot increase it by 100% or 200%. The minimum the Minister puts on the pay-by-weight should be the maximum because the Minister knows how offensive that would be to people with disabilities and people with particular needs because of large families.

Acting Chairman (Deputy John Lahart)

Thank you, Deputy. I am calling Deputy Ellis.

Deputy Bríd Smith

Will the Minister respond to this request?

Deputy Dessie Ellis

At present we have a major problem with illegal dumping throughout the country. We warned many years ago that privatisation would add to that problem. That is why we fought tooth and nail to retain services in the hands of local authorities. We now see a cartel fixing prices, putting the two fingers up to us all and the consumer. It is clear beyond any reasonable doubt that there will be substantial increases in waste collection fees from 1 July. This is in spite of repeated Government assurances that 87% of households will see a reduction in their waste bills, 8.5% will see no change while a small number of households may see a higher bill. With proper awareness and segregation, the potential is for everyone to see a reduced bill as promised by the previous Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly. In a statement, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Coveney, said pay-by-weight would mean the majority of households will be charged in a new, fairer and more transparent way for the collection of the waste.

By any standard, all of these promises have been broken, even before the bills take effect on 1 July. Not only that, but the legislation contained mandatory minimum fees to be applied, namely, 11 cent per kg for black bin waste and 6 cent per kg for compost bin waste.

This has been totally disregarded, with all waste management companies charging at least three times that amount.

From the very start, the bin companies have not engaged with the spirit of the legislation. Today, the Tánaiste said that the Government would take a dim view if it saw clear evidence of abuse and that if such abuse occurred, it would introduce regulations to ensure it was brought to an end. I think we are gone well beyond that point. If we have to chase and police these companies even before they begin, the only option is to start again and stop these charges, which are only having the effect of putting already hard-pressed families under increased duress and into further poverty.

Waste collection companies are charging fees that far exceed the existing standard charges. In one instance, this amounted to a 130% increase made under the guise of the pay-by-weight legislation. Europe is encouraging us all to recycle - rightly so - but that can only be done through educating people. Pay-by-weight and service charges are the new trick to add substantially to the price we are already being charged. Large families, particularly those on low pay and on social welfare, will be hit badly, as will senior citizens on pensions, who are already struggling but who recycle and put out very little rubbish. This legislation does not seem of any benefit except to the cartel-like pricing system of the bin companies. It is time to reassess the privatisation agenda and put a stop to this blatant attempt to gouge ordinary people.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

I welcome the Minister's commitment to meet industry representatives and to deal effectively and firmly with the issues raised. The first significant issue is the question of profiteering. There is no doubt in my mind, on foot of the calls and e-mails I have received from people throughout the Louth constituency, that significant profiteering is ongoing. One family of four who, according to the information given to the Minister, should have a reduction in their waste charges, were told this morning their charge of €312 will rise to €608. This means they will be charged twice as much for the taking away of less waste than ever. That is both appalling and unacceptable. Some companies are clearly profiteering and are using and abusing the privilege of having a licence to collect waste.

Second, there is the question of fairness. There is no fairness in the current proposals. Notwithstanding the fact we are being told something in the region of 74,000 households will be the only ones to have an increase in their charges, I believe that is untrue. In the case of those who will experience an increase, particularly larger families, the statistics we have been given indicate that there will be no fairness or equity. This is unacceptable. The Minister should suspend the process until we have clarity, particularly in regard to poorer families and families with children under three years of age. A waste waiver scheme is needed whereby hardship will be dealt with and there will be fairness, equity and consistency. I know constituents who do not have the funds and will not be able to afford the €300 increase to €600, and they will have no choice but to dump illegally. I agree with my colleague opposite that there will be a significant increase in illegal dumping and fly-tipping, which is unacceptable.

There has been no consultation by the companies. The companies are telling people about this now, with just two weeks to go, which means consumers have no chance to look for alternative service providers and no time to test the new system. If and when this is ever reintroduced, there should be a proper lead-in time during which people can work out which is the most effective and cheapest solution for them. It has to be fair and there cannot be the profiteering of the type we are seeing in this instance. Most importantly, poorer and larger families with young children must be considered. If a family has two children under three years, there will be at least 80 nappies per week going into the bins, which will put a huge additional cost onto these families that they cannot afford to pay. There must be a fair and equitable waiver system.

Deputy Paul Murphy

I got home last night after dealing all day with people contacting me about the price gouging that is going on. I had received an innocuous letter from Thorntons which informed me that, from 1 July 2016, a weekly service fee of €2 would be charged to my Thorntons account in addition to any lift charges. It neglected to say that this is replacing a €50 annual charge, and amounts to more than a 100% increase. Perhaps I should count myself lucky that I am not with Greyhound, which is imposing a 200% increase. Tens of thousands of people are receiving letters like this. The Thorntons letter also includes the fairly ominous sentence that the company has decided not to apply a charge to the recycling bin "at this time".

This is simply a rip-off. That is the only possible way to describe it. What is happening has absolutely nothing to do with recycling. In fact, it is penalising people because they are engaging in recycling, a point made by many of those who contacted me. Why is this rip-off happening? It is happening because the companies can do it. It is happening because of the ministerial order signed by the then Minister, Deputy Kelly, which was a parting gift, it seems, to these companies. Despite the fact he said 87% of people would pay less, in reality, that number will simply pay more. It is happening because this is the bitter fruit of privatisation, because the law of the jungle, as the Greyhound workers experienced, operates in the waste collection industry, where the driving factor is profit.

It is clear the Government is on the run in respect of this issue because people are mobilising, contacting and pressurising. The question is what the Government is going to do about it. I note the Tánaiste promised that, effectively, there would be very stern talking to the companies, and I understand that is happening tomorrow. That is not good enough. The Minister is responsible. He is not just a consumer who will ring up Joe Duffy and have a moan about it or ring up the company to give out about it - he is responsible. The law of the jungle operates. It is not good enough to ask them not to do it; the Minister has to change the regulations and anything less than that will not be accepted. He has to change the regulations so the increases are frozen and no more increases above inflation can take place, at an absolute minimum.

We will be using our Private Members' time next week to try to get such a motion passed. In particular, I and many others are very anxious to see that Fianna Fáil would vote in favour of that motion in line with the words it has been issuing in recent days. Another point I would make very strongly is that what is happening clearly shows that privatisation has been a disaster for the environment, for households and for workers. It underlines the reason to continue to mobilise and protest against water charges, and to prevent charges and waste privatisation. It points to the need for the immediate reversal of the privatisation of our bin services and for them to go back into the ownership of the council.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Like other Deputies, my office has been inundated with e-mails and phone calls of protest at the introduction of these new pay-by-weight, rip-off charges being imposed from 1 July next. As leader of the Labour Party on Dublin City Council in the 1990s, I fiercely opposed the introduction of charges in the first instance because I feared it would lead to the kind of privatised, chaotic, non-competitive market that now exists.

Of course, it was the then Minister, Deputy Kelly, who inaugurated the crazy new pricing regime and Statutory Instrument No. 24 earlier this year. As broadcaster Pat Kenny noted this morning, it is beyond belief there are no maximum lift charges and flat charges in article 20 of the eighth schedule of that document. Deputy Kelly referred to an independent study that he used in order to come up with the figures of 11 cent and 6 cent. Will the Minister, Deputy Coveney, publish that study so we can see what kind of costing was involved? As the then Minister, Deputy Kelly, in his wisdom, also brought in a charge for the green bin, which I am glad the Minister, Deputy Coveney, has reversed.

The Greyhound company, which operates in much of the Dublin Bay North constituency, has informed households of astonishing so-called service charges of €3.25 a week and grossly inflated black bin charges of 35 cent per kilo and brown bin charges of 23 cent per kilo. As Deputy Bríd Smith said, constituents quickly worked out their new annual standing charges and were shocked to estimate that those charges would rise by 102% or, if paid weekly, by 141%, and black and brown bin lift charges would rise by 400%. The minimum charges set out in Statutory Instrument No. 24 leave many thousands of households paying from 100% to 200% more for their waste collection. There is little comfort in switching to other service providers given the profound lack of competition, as my colleague, Deputy Joan Collins, said yesterday when she spoke about a cartel operating in the market.

It was the famous former Minister, Deputy Kelly, who spoke only a few months ago about the last chance saloon for waste operators and that he was going to go in and sort them out but, of course, as usual he did nothing remotely to sort them out. Across the waste market, standing and lift charges have skyrocketed. I have had complaints from householders who use Thorntons, which is introducing price hikes of 200%. One family with four children estimates its bill with Thorntons will rise from €324 to €611. Another family which includes someone with disabilities will see its bill increase from €360 to more than €600. An exasperated customer of City Bin estimates his bill will rise by 242%. On the Fingal side of my constituency, Panda has abolished the very convenient tag system and will also introduce increased charges.

In a statement he made yesterday, the Minister spoke about collaboration on the development of waste policy, but this remains to be seen. How will he collaborate? The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission is supposed to be the regulator but there has been no regulation. There have been no studies. Even the Commission for Energy Regulation, which was referred to in questions earlier and which has a brutal record in invigilating energy prices, at least does some type of computation. I ask the Minister to suspend the statutory instrument immediately and leave the charges as they are and let the House and the Minister study what we will do next.

Deputy Barry Cowen

As other speakers have said, when the former Minister, Deputy Kelly, brought forward this statutory instrument in the form of a ministerial order in January he did so, supposedly he would say, with the best of good intentions claiming that 87% of bills would be reduced. Based on evidence supplied, which has been relayed here and to many Members of the House in recent days, this will not be the case and it will be quite the opposite. We have heard about various increases amounting to 100% and 200%. As usual, with regard to the same former Minister who accused others of environmental treason and the likes some weeks ago, what he did was ill-thought out, ill-conceived and poorly communicated and has left a loophole to allow the type of price gouging about which we have heard in recent days.

This morning, the Tánaiste stated in response to this issue being raised on Leaders' Questions that what is happening is not in the spirit of what was brought forward but, unfortunately, one cannot lodge spirit or pay bills with spirit. What the Minister can do in response to this issue being raised in the manner in which it has, and in response to the way in which the companies involved in waste collection have price gouged, is meet the companies. I am glad to hear other speakers state the Minister will meet the collectors tomorrow and I welcome this. It is important that he does so. He should also meet the local authorities which are the licensing authorities for waste collection with a view to informing them that the loophole which exists to allow this will be closed. Make no mistake about this, it has to be closed.

The Minister has to go back to the so-called spirit of the order passed by the former Minister, Deputy Kelly, in so far as there should be some reward for those who seek to reduce their waste and engage in recycling. We should have a system whereby what they get is what was promised and what was expected. Anything less than this will only mean the emergence of an Irish Water type saga such as we have seen in recent years, and I do not want to get into the rights and wrongs of this, the way in which it was handled and how ill-conceived, ill-thought out and ill-prepared it was.

There is a simple opportunity for the Minister who has responsibility in this area to meet with the companies immediately and seek to resolve the issue and come back to the House next week with a resolution which will meet with our approval and ultimately the approval of those we represent who, as I have said on numerous occasions, give us all the privilege of being here to represent them with no monopoly for anybody with regard to any constituent he or she represents.

Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Simon Coveney)

I thank the Deputies for raising the issue. This is clearly a very big issue which is evident by the number of people on the Government and Opposition sides who have what I regard as genuine concerns about what is being proposed in terms of charging from individual companies. When I became Minister this was an issue which had clearly received some attention by the previous Government and previous Minister.

In defence of the former Minister, Deputy Kelly, what he was doing in relation to requiring a pay-by-weight element to bills for refuse collection was the right approach. It was an approach based on the polluter pays principle, whereby people who manage their waste in a responsible manner should be rewarded and save money by doing so. The only difference of opinion I had with the previous approach was with regard to the so-called green bin element, whereby I did not think it was appropriate to have a pay-by-weight charge at all, even though the proposal was a very low charge for the green bin, because I did not want any disincentive in terms of recycling material, which is how it would have been perceived if there was any charge.

What has happened since the regulation was signed is that in recent days we have seen the new proposed charges from individual companies, and as householders are adding up what it will cost them on the back of those proposed charges many people are alarmed at the potential increases they may face. As far as I am concerned, this is not what was intended with this statutory instrument and it is my job to ensure what was intended by the statutory instrument is followed through. I will meet the companies tomorrow. I would meet them even earlier but I am in Belfast this evening and in Derry tomorrow. Early tomorrow evening, I will meet the companies concerned.

I agree with those Deputies who have said we should not rely on some type of voluntary adoption of the spirit of the statutory instrument. We need to assure people that the Government is acting in their interests and, at the same time, allow companies to operate in a commercial and sensible manner in the spirit of a new statutory instrument which is to change the way in which people are charged for waste. This will reward them for responsible management of waste and take compostable material out of a black or grey bin and put it into a brown bin and therefore pay less by weight, and to take plastics and paper out of a general waste bin and put it into a recycle bin and be rewarded for this in terms of the overall bill. This is the thinking behind this and this is what we need to ensure happens.

If this means looking at new regulations which we will introduce next week then so be it. If it means looking at interventions in terms of regulations on, or management of, charges for a time to ensure we adopt a new charging regime that households accept makes sense for the environment and for themselves in terms of bills, then that is what we will do. I am not saying this is straightforward and I do not want to prescribe today how it will be done. I want to talk to the industry about it and have a respectful conversation, but I can tell the Deputies the Government and I will insist we do not have 200%, 100% or 70% increases in bin charges for households producing similar amounts next year to what they have been producing for the past 12 months. This is not acceptable.

Acting Chairman (Deputy John Lahart)

Thank you, Minister.

Deputy Simon Coveney

There were a lot of speakers.

Acting Chairman (Deputy John Lahart)

I am governed by the rules.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Surely, I have an opportunity to be able to-----

Acting Chairman (Deputy John Lahart)

The Minister will have a second bite of the cherry.

Deputy Simon Coveney

A number of complaints have been made to the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission and the Department is interacting with it to follow through on these complaints and ensure they are responded to appropriately. The core issue is that undoubtedly next week there will be a debate on this issue in the House. A number of parties will propose this and this is good. I understand there will also be a debate in the Seanad as Sinn Féin will use its Private Members' time there to discuss the topic next week. I hope by that point in time we will have clarity in terms of the Government's thinking as to the most appropriate way to respond in the interests of the environment and households, including the vulnerable households of the type Deputy O'Dowd raised concerns about, which may have many young children or may have a member of the family with a disability who may be incontinent or an elderly person. We do not want to punish any family which for genuine reasons must deposit waste in black or grey bins.

We will therefore have that conversation tomorrow with the industry and I hope we will be able to find a way forward to which this House can agree next week.

Acting Chairman (Deputy John Lahart)

The Minister will have another opportunity to contribute.

Deputy John Curran

I thank the Minister for his contribution but it really did not answer the specific question I asked him. The concern we all have is that we have been getting notifications from the beginning of June indicating the new charging regime and nobody has been monitoring it until individuals came to various Deputies to highlight the issue. This scheme is due to kick in on 1 July and the specific request I have for the Minister is whether he will suspend the scheme until a new and acceptable charging regime is introduced. The scheme is hanging over people as we speak, and in two weeks' time they will be paying grossly different charges.

The Taoiseach spoke about competition and so forth. One of the companies mentioned here by name today is charging an additional €50 registration fee for new customers. That is not consumer-friendly at all. The entire charging scheme must be reviewed, but in the first instance my specific request to the Minister is whether he will suspend the scheme until we can reach agreement on an appropriate charging scheme that does what the Minister wants, namely, increase the amount of recycling and diversion from landfill.

Acting Chairman (Deputy John Lahart)

I thank the Deputy for his conciseness.

Deputy Bríd Smith

I am absolutely delighted to hear what the Minister just said, namely, that he is talking about a statutory instrument that we will have in place rather than relying on the spirit of the existing statutory instrument. The sooner the Minister can do that the better, because it is absolutely vital.

We must also take control of what is referred to in the statutory instrument as the minimum cost of pay-by-weight waste disposal. Let us make no mistake. This is a vicious, competitive, mafia-type dominated industry. These companies will push up the price of pay-by-weight waste disposal to maximise their profits in the event of their losing out if we control the annual service charge. We should control the annual service charge at no more than consumer price index, CPI, levels. We must also then say that what was set in the statutory instrument as the minimum price per weight on each of the types of bins now must become the maximum price because if we do not, the companies will compensate themselves and their profit rates by increasing the amount. That is the next big danger.

Acting Chairman (Deputy John Lahart)

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Bríd Smith

Second, I am delighted that the Minister has mooted the idea of reintroducing a waiver for hard-pressed people with disabilities, large families, people experiencing poverty, etc. That is absolutely crucial and we should examine such an approach. Why in the name of God we let the service go-----

Acting Chairman (Deputy John Lahart)

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Bríd Smith

-----into private hands in the first place is baffling. We should now start campaigning to take it back into municipal control and ownership.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I am glad the Minister is meeting the companies tomorrow but he needs to be very strong and hard with them because it is very clear that there is a cartel operating here. All the different companies are setting these prices between them because the prices are all very similar across the board. We are all opposed to cartels.

Our Sinn Féin Senators will submit a motion to the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad to annul this legislation next week, but I hope the Minister, his party, Fianna Fáil, the Labour Party and all the Independents will support our motion to annul the regulation and stop these increased prices. The Minister mentioned introducing a waiver. I remember in the past when all the waivers were introduced by Dublin City Council and it was a sop to get services privatised wholesale.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Correct.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

It will not wash with us that at some stage the companies will try to get rid of the waiver. We need something more permanent, we need to deal with these companies and ideally we should be moving this service back to the local authorities.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

We need a regulator to examine the books in order that due diligence is done on the prices that are being quoted. I welcome very much what the Minister is saying. I believe his action will be firm and effective. I welcome his comments on a hardship or waiver scheme. I direct him to a report of the Ombudsman - I think it was in 2007 or 2006 - which recommended such a scheme at the time. The way forward is to look after particularly those who are least able to pay, and I ask the Minister to reconsider the statistics as to who will pay more which were presented to him as a fait accompli after he took office. If it is families of more than six, which is what we are being told, I do not believe that. The Minister really needs to do due diligence on this. It just does not make sense that those who are reducing more are paying more. We must deal with these guys once and for all and I believe the Minister is the person to do that.

Deputy Paul Murphy

The way this issue has evolved is quite instructive about the weak position of the Government and the fact that it is in a minority in this House but also quite instructive about the fact the Government is dealing with a different set of ordinary and working-class people out there. It is dealing with a set of people who have just managed to force the previous Government and this Government back on a major issue for them, namely, the water charges, people who are feeling confident and who are not prepared to lie down. I urge the Minister to bear that in mind and to bear in mind that anything that allows the companies to continue to increase the charges in whatever way, be it through the standing charge or pay-by-weight charges, will not be acceptable to people.

The Minister will be met next week by a significant protest in Tallaght. I understand he is coming to South Dublin County Council. There will be a protest at 2 o'clock there on Monday-----

Deputy Simon Coveney

Is the Deputy organising that? Oh dear.

Deputy Paul Murphy

-----and a significant protest outside the Dáil on Tuesday at 7 p.m., demanding that the rip-off stops but also that the privatisation is reversed.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I hope the Minister's response means that there will be a suspension of Statutory Instrument No. 24 and that these pay-by-weight price increases, as they have been presented to us, will not proceed. Is it possible to make the study that the former Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, apparently did regarding this matter available to Dáil Éireann and to examine the issue of maximum charges in this regard? Could I ask the Minister again about the role of the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission? Will this commission be the regulator? There is no regulation, as the previous Minister said. It is the last chance saloon, a chaotic market situation. Will the Minister also consider legislation to restore tendering by district licences and therefore allow local authorities, if they wish, to come forward and compete for the licence and, in other words, get rid of privatisation and allow local authorities to get back into this critical utility?

Deputy Barry Cowen

I welcome, respect and appreciate the Minister's initial response to this issue and his confirmation that he will amend the order of the House, close the gap that allows this price gouging that we have seen, introduce waiver systems, and reward those who improve the recycling element and who participate in the way in which the proposal was intended. I welcome that that would be reciprocated, that they would be rewarded by having a bill that is less costly than what they had this time last year. I also welcome, as Deputy Curran has said, that in the event of the Minister not being able to provide the necessary amendments by next week, he will commit at that stage to inform the House that he will suspend the order until such time as he can present an alternative proposal that meets with the approval of the House.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I hope I will get the time to answer all those questions if I can. Deputy Curran's question, whether I will amend the scheme, is a fair one. It is too early to give him a straight answer to that today but early next week we need to have an answer to it. I want to be fair. Some companies have not even published their new charging systems yet so I want to have an opportunity to meet the companies involved and the representative body before I decide what needs to be done.

Regarding statements like "the whole scheme needs to be changed and be reviewed", that is exactly what has just happened. We have just reviewed the whole charging system for waste-----

Deputy Dessie Ellis

And made a mess of it.

Deputy Simon Coveney

-----to introduce a pay-by-weight scheme, which every environmentalist in the country would accept is a good thing as long as it is managed properly and introduced in a way that balances a bill properly and as long as it is not abused and used as an opportunity to increase income or margins for companies.

Setting the maximum and minimum as the same number, setting the pay-by-weight charge, does not make much sense. Some households will want a significant proportion of their bills as pay-by-weight with a small standing charge, while others will want a much higher standing charge and the bare minimum in pay by weight, depending on the type of household. We must maximise the incentive, where possible, to compost, recycle, reduce and reuse waste as much as possible. This is the purpose of it. We are not doing it for any reasons other than a genuine, progressive environmental reason.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

We do not know the economics of it.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Pay-by-weight charges have been introduced all over Europe in different countries, regions and in Ireland.

Deputy Paul Murphy

For profits.

Deputy Simon Coveney

We have examined the impact of it on how people manage their waste and it has been positive from an environmental perspective.

Deputy Bríd Smith

The Minister has not-----

Acting Chairman (Deputy John Lahart)

This is not a debate.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Very few people in the House had an issue with it until they saw the new charges that were being proposed.

Deputy Bríd Smith

The reason is-----

Acting Chairman (Deputy John Lahart)

The Minister can see the dangers of going well beyond his time.

Deputy Simon Coveney

We cannot have a situation in which the Opposition Members all get their full time and ask me for answers which I do not have time to give.

Acting Chairman (Deputy John Lahart)

I am just following the rules.

Deputy Bríd Smith

We need the answers.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Let the Minister answer.

Acting Chairman (Deputy John Lahart)

Please, Deputy. Could the Minister conclude?

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

Let the Minister speak.

Deputy Simon Coveney

My approach is about trying to ensure we have a new system of paying for waste that benefits the householder by rewarding good practice in conservation and good waste management while ensuring we do not allow any company to use the change in system, and the confusion that may come with it, to increase its margins or to unfairly increase charges. This will be the basis of the discussion I will have tomorrow. I look forward to returning to the House next week and having a detailed discussion on it. I hope to have proposals by then for people to think about and, hopefully, support.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd's comment about the need for a regulator needs serious consideration. The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, is about ensuring there is competition in the market as opposed to managing what is appropriate by way of regulated pricing. It is a little different. I understand the points made by some people about being suspicious, sceptical and critical of privatisation. Privatisation can be a good thing. It can and should support competition, innovation, consumer choice and more efficiency. We must ensure it benefits householders in terms of waste management.

Deputy Bríd Smith

Waste management is a disaster.

Deputy Paul Murphy

We have years of experience.

Deputy Simon Coveney

My job in the next few days is to ensure the significant concern, stress and heat that has been created around the issue is dealt with by the Government and me. The conversation will begin tomorrow with the industry, and we will work through the weekend to come up with a sensible proposal. It is unfortunate that a large protest is being planned for Tallaght.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Thursday, 16 Jun 2016