Vol. 914 No. 2
Questions Nos. 1 to 7, inclusive, resubmitted.
Question No. 8 taken after Question No. 9.
9. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach the proposals he is considering to expand the scope of statistics being collected and reported relating to employment and wage levels beyond those required for OECD comparisons. [17336/16]
The CSO collects and reports on a number of statistical outputs relating to employment and wage levels. These include the quarterly national household survey, which is the official source of estimates of employment in the State; the job-churn related statistics from administrative data sources that explore the flow of jobs and workers between firms and within and between sectors, which began in 2012; the monthly unemployment statistics, which began in 2015; the earnings, hours and employment costs survey, which is the official source of short-term earnings and labour costs estimates in the State; and the new structure of earnings survey, which is planned to be published before the end of July 2016 and which will include detailed structural earnings for 2014.
These statistics will be primarily based on linking existing administrative records and survey sources rather than primary data collection.
The above outputs fulfil a number of national demands as well as meeting Irish requirements in the context of European statistical legislation governed by EUROSTAT, the official statistical office of the European Union. The harmonised European statistical requirements generally mirror those requirements of other international organisations such as the OECD and the United Nations.
The CSO is continually engaging with national and international stakeholders to assess the relevance and scope of statistics on employment and wage levels. Where gaps are identified, the CSO will consider proposals to expand the scope of the statistical domains, subject to resource constraints and burden on respondents.
I thank the Chief Whip for her reply. The question is to ask the Taoiseach the proposals he is considering to expand the scope of statistics being collected and reported relating to employment and wage levels beyond those required for the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development comparisons. While extensive work has been undertaken by the CSO on employment and various methodologies are used, significant work is required on wage structures across the economy, especially at the lower end. Up to 600,000 people earn wages of less than €30,000 and it would be useful if specific work could be undertaken on wage levels, especially low to middle income wage levels in the economy. There is a view across western Europe and developed economies that there is a growing disparity between corporate incomes and those of workplace employees and between different sectors. In the financial and technology sectors prospects are far better, but wages have been reducing in the retail and manual sectors.
It would be useful if statistical work was also undertaken on the impact of the minimum wage on overall wage levels. While the minimum wage has brought up wage levels, there might be an argument that in some sectors employers have brought incomes down to meet the minimum wage. It has been my view that in the hospitality sector, for example, over a decade or so that happened, in essence, in many jobs and that once the minimum wage was set, incomes for certain posts came down to meet it. Very little work has been done on that point. We need to critically analyse the wage structure within society and the economy because much academic work undertaken points to the fact that wide gaps are opening up. There are people on very high incomes but the middle income group is declining as well. That is happening in the United States and in most developed economies. It could be a feature of globalisation but ultimately it is having an impact on the nature of democracy. The issue could be the subject of a particular statistical analysis by the CSO. Will the Minister of State ask the CSO to give consideration to that?
Did the Minister of State say there is no proposal to expand the scope of statistics being collected and reported relating to employment and wage levels beyond those required by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development comparisons? My understanding from the reply is that the status quo will prevail? Could the Minister of State indicate whether that is the case?
The final line of the reply outlined that the CSO is continually engaging with national and international stakeholders to look at how we collect data and the best value we can get from data. As to whether we would consider expanding the scope of statistics being collected, the answer is "Yes, we will". When new opportunities are put to us, they are evaluated based on the cost of collecting the data versus the return. One such example is a pilot that is currently being undertaken by the CSO, which was established in the second quarter of this year, namely, the minimum wage quantum survey, the details of which will probably be released later on this year. It might go some way towards establishing the kind of information Deputy Martin seeks - that we all seek - on the basis of the kind of wages that are paid and for what contract hours, to establish whether they are if-and-when contracts, zero-hour contracts or continually 20-hour or 40-hour week contracts.
While a real effort was made to impart the information to me, much of what is done is based on sampling surveys, as opposed to conducting a detailed analysis of every single worker in the country because obviously that would not be cost-effective. However, the trend obviously is something of which the Government is aware and is tracking. It will be interesting to look at the detailed data that come out of this second quarter pilot survey on the exact quantum of the wages and it will be fed back to the Deputy as soon as possible. There is also a lot of the other stuff the Central Statistics Office, CSO, seeks to track with regard to the living wage and its interaction with the Low Pay Commission. Obviously, it is something on which the office is working but it is open and willing to consider both international best practice and changes it would be necessary to apply here arising therefrom and any suggestions people in this House and beyond might have. However, it must be cost related to the benefit of the data we get back on a statistical level.
I welcome the reply and would be interested in the minimum wage quantum survey referred to by the Minister of State. She might indicate when Members can expect it to be completed. On the Minister of State's point regarding the sampling methodology, essentially the surveys she mentioned earlier such as the household quarterly survey, the earnings hours and so on all are sample-based surveys. She might revert to Members at a later stage, but what would it take to conduct a proper research-based statistical analysis involving primary data? I ask because the State carries out a census and when I was Minister for Health long ago, I was involved in initiating the longitudinal study to provide long-term data to inform policy on children and young people. That was a long-term commitment made by the State at the time. Likewise, there is a case to be made in respect of wage and employment structures. What would it take for a full-blown primary data procurement approach to understanding them fully? While sampling can give a good indication, it also may miss things along the way. The Minister of State may respond at a later stage as to what it would take to go outside the box and take a form of approach other than just a sampling approach.
There is a race to the bottom. There is a huge argument for workers' rights, and as part of all this, when there is a deliberate effort to promote a low-wage economy, one must have best practice and I welcome the Whip's assertion that the CSO will look at other suggestions in this regard. Best practice is needed when it comes to comparing wage levels here with those in the OECD and elsewhere.
Are we dealing with Ceist Uimh. 7, faoi child care, feasta?
Are we dealing with Question No. 7?
No, Question No. 9.
Question No. 9 only.
I thank Deputy Adams but do not agree with him that there is a race to the bottom. There obviously is a flux and a change with regard to the economic climate that has being dealt on the country for the past ten years and certain people have taken advantage of that. However, it is the job of the Government to make sure it puts in place policies that recognise people do so and fix it.
In response to Deputy Micheál Martin, I expect the quantum survey results to be available by the end of the year and, as soon as I receive them, they will be laid before the House and will be available to the Deputy. This morning, I asked the very question asked by the Deputy as to why one cannot simply approach an organisation such as the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, which collects all the data with regard to people in employment. It was explained to me it is not quite as simple as that because although the Revenue Commissioners are charged with collecting tax, they do not collect the exact data that would be necessary to provide the statistics the Deputy and I would need. It was brought to my attention that, thankfully, almost 2 million people are employed in Ireland and to conduct a survey of a size that would provide exact statistical data would be an enormous task. On an annual basis, the CSO conducts a survey with 30,000 businesses, which is a mammoth task for it to do each year. The CSO explained to me that, in Swords, the office is working with 2 million pieces of paper - perhaps it was 200 million pieces of paper - arising from the census results and, consequently, it would be an extremely large project to ascertain the wages and standards of each employee in the country. That is why the CSO works on statistical trends because obviously there is a huge variance between the cost of obtaining the information on the 2 million employees and what can be done with samples. However, as soon as I have to hand the results from the quantum survey, I will give the Deputy the nod and will let him know when it is ready.
We will move on to the next question.
8. Deputy Gino Kenny asked the Taoiseach the average wage for child care workers; and how this compares to European Union and Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development figures. [17147/16]
The exact information the Deputy is looking for is not currently available. The statistics on the average wages are compiled from the quarterly earnings, hour and employment costs surveys, EHECS, the periodic labour costs surveys and structure of earnings surveys conducted under EU regulations. While these surveys include breakdowns by sector and by occupation, the figures do not include a separate breakdown with regard to the child care sector. Accurate results at this level of detail cannot be provided from sample surveys.
In the EU statistical classification of economic activities in the European community, NACE, revision 2 system, child day care activities are classified as a sub-group of NACE code 88, social work activities without accommodation. Figures are available for the latter sector from the quarterly EHECS survey, showing an average earning per week of €465.12 in the fourth quarter of 2015. This is the average earning for all occupations working in the social work activities without accommodation sector.
Some comparative EU statistics are available for the social work activities sector from the 2012 EU labour costs survey. Annual earnings in the social work activities sector in Ireland were €32,896 in 2012, the fourth highest average earnings in the EU. The UK had a comparative figure of €28,583, while the EU average was €25,468.
Average hourly earnings for the social work activities sector are also available from the 2012 EU labour cost survey and show that Ireland earned the fourth highest average hourly earnings in the EU, with mean hourly earnings of €20.21. This compares to mean hourly earnings of €15.87 in the UK and a €15.76 average across the EU. Denmark recorded the highest average hourly earnings in this sector with a figure of €26.70.
There are no comparative earnings statistics available on child care workers for Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, OECD, member countries. The Central Statistics Office, CSO, is currently preparing updated results on the structure of earnings for the years 2011 to 2014 based primarily on administrative rather than survey data. Broad sectoral and occupational statistics from this source will be published before the end of July and more detailed breakdowns will be subsequently available on request from the CSO, subject to the confidentiality rules.
While this will enable a more detailed structural table than before, the CSO does not expect that it will be possible to provide tables on earnings on specific detailed occupation codes within the child care worker sector. To identify earnings of child care workers, individual occupations would need to be coded with a four-digit level of international standard classification of occupations. That does not occur currently.
Strangely enough, I received the Minister of State's response earlier on. It is a bit chaotic here because I was supposed to speak at 3.30 p.m. I was looking over the Minister of State's response and was listening to her when she was verbally responding. It is probably slightly misleading because I was just looking up the SIPTU average hourly rate for child care workers and it is €9.56. If a person is earning that, he or she will probably earn €380 per week for a very important job. I was at a major protest outside the Dáil about a year and a half ago about child care workers who have been so badly paid. There is a huge turnover of child care workers. The Government said that it would address it and so forth. From my research on this, Ireland had the highest cost of child care in the OECD but I do not know the position at this moment. It is a very important industry. It came into the news about two years ago because of the turnover of workers as well as job practice and employment legislation. I do not know if the Minister of State can comment on that.
There is a variance between the details I read out and the information the Deputy got from SIPTU. SIPTU, in my opinion, classify child care workers at a different mean level. For argument's sake, the OECD and the CSO take child care workers as a sector. That could be somebody working in a crèche right up to somebody working for Tusla, as a clinical social care worker. That is where the mean figure is coming from.
I agree with the Deputy that we expect a very high standard, and rightly so, from our child care providers and yet they are probably among the lower-paid workers in the country. I was also at the protest outside the House a couple of years ago that the Deputy mentioned.
A great deal of work is being done with the sector. Many educational resources are being provided, including compensation for improvements in standards in the sector not only with regard to education but also in terms of facilities. However, the salary is very much on the lower end of the scale, which is why the Low Pay Commission and particularly the aspiration to move to the living wage are important policies for the Government. That is where I hope we would pursue it.
I am disappointed that there appears to be an incapacity within the system to get the average working wage for child care workers. I note the reply suggests that because it is a broader social work category which the CSO examines, it is not in a position to look at child care work. That is poor from a policy formulation perspective. We are not in a position to identify officially, and with statistical precision, what the average child care worker is being paid. That will clearly impact on policy development. We have all met with workers in the child care sector and there is a real issue in this regard. In fact, the sector is in crisis because of the downward spiral in wages. Many young students undertook early childhood studies and secured bachelor of arts degrees because, over the last decade, it was considered to be a growing issue and one the country wished to provide for and so forth. My view is that the sector is under the wrong Department. The sooner it is more aligned with education, the better. I tried to do it once but the Department of Justice and Equality wanted the responsibility under the current programme and then it moved to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs.
The salary levels are too low but it would be useful if we could have statistical work carried out on them. Many young people will not choose these courses in college or further education colleges because of the wage structures afterwards. There is a huge responsibility. All of the providers are at the end of their tether as well because of the various inspections and so forth, and then they cannot keep personnel in work because they wish to go elsewhere. The years from birth to three years of age are the most important three years in a person's development. They will learn more in those three years than they will learn for the rest of their lives and yet the level of wages for those workers, and I acknowledge there is a historical background to this, is way below anything in primary teaching or otherwise. Therefore, clear choices will be made where people have signed on for early childhood education due to a love of it and, after four or five years, there is no appreciable improvement in sight in terms of career prospects or wages. My concern is that there is a very bleak prospect for the sector in general and that we will go backwards in terms of attracting the right personnel into the sector with proper prospects.
I ask that the CSO looks again at how it is carrying out the various statistical analyses. From a policy perspective, this country should be seeking to get a proper understanding of what is happening with wages in the child care sector. I am not referring to the higher levels but to those not just in crèches but also in early schools, and the difference between what is happening in the private sector as opposed to the community sector and the State sector. There is an opportunity there to do something more fundamental. More, and more specific, statistics on the child care sector would be very welcome.
The Minister of State said earlier that she does not agree that there is a race to the bottom, which does not mean there is no race to the bottom. There is. The child care sector employs approximately 25,000 women and, as Deputy Gino Kenny said, the average pay is €9.56 per hour. Many of the workers must do significant preparation and administrative work which in many cases is unpaid. That is unacceptable and causes burn out. In spite of the high cost of child care to parents, the educators on whom the quality of care depends are undervalued and underpaid. There is no job security or paid leave for many. Many child care workers are laid off in the summer months and many services are unable to pay staff for anything other than core hours. There is evidence that highly skilled graduates are being lost from the sector. The pay and conditions of child care workers must be a consideration for a quality child care system to work.
I understand the Department of Education and Skills is carrying out a comprehensive review of the education and training qualifications in early childhood education. When will that review be complete? Would it also be possible to carry out a review of wages paid to child care workers, with a view to introducing salary scales and raising payments accordingly? Will the Government also review the rights of child care workers with a view to strengthening and enhancing them?
There is a risk of straying into policy matters which have absolutely nothing to do with me, so I will reply to the questions on statistics and refer Deputy Adams and Deputy Martin to the relevant Ministers to discuss the policy issues they raise.
The Minister of State is learning too quickly.
I know my place. Regarding the data, I appreciate the constraints the Deputies mention in so far as we are only collecting them by sector and are not breaking them down by digits but we are not alone in that. Northern Ireland, the United Kingdom and the OECD countries collect the data in the same way we do. That is not to say it is the right way.
It is masking the problem.
Yes, I know. However, it is not necessary to conduct a collective survey of every child care worker in the country to find out what the average wage is. If SIPTU can arrive at €9.56 for the average child care worker in preschool, obviously we can do it based on sample surveys. I say that because the cost prohibiting us collecting the data is relevant and we must be aware of that. However, let us have a look at it. Deputy Gino Kenny raised this in the first instance, so let us find out if we can get a sample of the particular sector we are discussing to see if it corroborates or matches what SIPTU has announced and perhaps that could feed into some policy decisions to which the Deputies are keen to have changes made. I can come back to the Deputies on it.
