Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 31 Jan 2017

Vol. 936 No. 3

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

Ireland and the United States of America have always had a very special and historical relationship and all efforts should be focused on maintaining that. That said, the events of the past seven days have left people extremely concerned about what is happening. Apart from the casual attempt to humiliate the Mexican President, there has been an executive order essentially arbitrarily banning from the United States millions of people from seven different nations on the basis of religion and nationality. This is completely unacceptable. It stigmatises an entire religion and associates it with terrorism and mayhem. It is also dangerous in that it emboldens others to act against people of the Muslim faith. The ban contravenes the Geneva Convention and offends our concept of human decency, our values and religious liberty.

It is striking to note the contrast between how the world reacted to the refugee question after the Second World War and how the world today, particularly democracies, is reacting. After the Second World War, we had open doors whereas democracies are now closing their doors to genuine refugees from war-torn areas. In that context, it is very heartening to see the Jewish community standing shoulder to shoulder with their Muslim brethren in defending them against this particular ban.

There is no logic to the ban in terms of what it sets out to achieve. As a matter of fact, US born citizens have been responsible for the majority of the heinous terrorist acts that have occurred on US soil. America was built on immigration and refugees, which have been an essential ingredient in the entrepreneurial flair and economic development that occurred in the United States. It is interesting that many of the major companies in the technology industry, for example, Google, Facebook, Lyft, Airbnb and Viber, have given large donations to the American Civil Liberties Union to fight cases and defend those who have been affected by the ban. The ban is damaging to America and the world.

I believe the Taoiseach should proceed with his visit to the United States. It is important in terms of the historical relationship I mentioned earlier. It is not just about a bowl of shamrock. I also believe the pre-clearance facility should be maintained because to get rid of it would be to disadvantage the more than 1.5 million who travel on an annual basis.

We need a commitment from the Taoiseach that he will state publicly that the ban is morally wrong and violates the Geneva Convention in respect of refugees and discriminates on the basis of religion and nationality. Does the Taoiseach accept that and will he say so in those terms? Has the Taoiseach written to President Trump conveying the Government's opposition to this executive order and has he asked him to repeal it? If not, will he commit to so doing? Will the Taoiseach agree to an all-party motion strongly opposing this ban and conveying our Parliament's unified and unanimous opposition to it?

The Taoiseach

On 27 January the President of the United States signed an executive order expressed to be done under the powers vested in him under the US Constitution and the laws of the United States, including the Immigration and Nationality Act, INA. The precise meaning of a number of the provisions of the executive order is uncertain. Federal judges in Brooklyn, Massachusetts, Virginia and Washington have issued rulings preventing persons claiming refugee status being sent back to their home countries and the removal or deportation from the United States of persons claiming refugee status pending full court hearings. The legal position is evolving, as we are now aware. On Sunday, 29 January, the Chief of Staff stated that green card holders from the seven banned countries would not be prevented from returning to the United States, going forward. This appeared to be a reversal of one of the key components of the executive order made the previous Friday. In the case of holders of dual nationality and dual passports, clarifications have issued from the USA in the past 24 hours to the effect that if the holder uses his or her passport from the country not listed in the executive order he or she will be entitled to be admitted to the USA. The legality of the executive order and US immigration rules are entirely a matter for the US courts.

Deputy Martin will be aware that Ireland has granted citizenship to approximately 5,000 people from the seven countries involved. Therefore, they have Irish passports and, for instance, Syrian passports. Clarification has now been received to the effect that if one of those persons presents an Irish passport at the point of pre-clearance either in Dublin or Shannon, it is on that passport he or she will be judged and will not be refused entry to the United States. There are a number of important points to be made on this issue. The rights available to refugees or persons wishing to seek asylum in Ireland remain unchanged. Those applying for asylum having arrived in this country or having been transit passengers withdraw from or do not succeed in getting pre-clearance will be considered in each case under the International Protection Act 2015. In other words, if they are turned back at US immigration in Dublin or Shannon and they come back into the Irish setting they are then dealt with under the International Protection Act 2015. As I said, the situation with regard to dual Irish-prohibited states nationals has been clarified. On presentation of an Irish passport they will not be hindered from entering the United States.

Ireland will continue to consider any immigration matters arising from the executive order in line with Irish law. I intend to go to the United States to speak directly to the US President. This morning, the Cabinet was fully in favour of retaining our pre-clearance facility and the Attorney General has confirmed that the issue in so far as the legality is concerned is a matter for the United States courts. In so far as Ireland is concerned, we are in compliance with human rights legislation and in accordance with our own Constitution. Pre-clearance is an important element for Ireland and it is available in Shannon and Dublin. Many other airports have sought it. I have already condemned torture and breaches of human rights in any country around the world and will continue to do so very vociferously.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach has not answered any of the specific questions I put to him. The essential issue is the moral authority that governs the enactment of the executive order. I asked the Taoiseach if he would publicly state that the ban is morally wrong and violates the Geneva Convention in respect of refugees and discriminates on the basis of religion and nationality.

Does the Taoiseach accept that is the essence of the executive order? We could discuss legal clarity and the evolution of the legal issues but the fundamental point is that there was political intent militating against the populations of the seven nations. This is unacceptable in terms of how democracies operate and behave. I refer in particular to a country such as the United States, which, as I have said, was built on immigration, religious freedom and civil liberties. The order offends those very concepts.

I asked the Taoiseach whether he would agree to an all-party motion strongly opposing this executive order. I asked him whether he wrote to President Trump. He might confirm whether he did. Does he intend to write to him? Will he write to him conveying the Government's opposition? I have heard about concern and heard the Taoiseach stating he has examined this, that and the other but I have not heard the fact that this is wrong being clearly articulated.

The Taoiseach

I do not object to an all-party motion provided we can come to an agreement on it. I do not want circumstances in which we are expected to have all-party motions every week. There have been a number of executive orders signed in the first ten days of the US presidency. As a member of the Government, I have condemned torture, waterboarding and breaches of human rights around the world. I have not written to the US President because I intend to visit him in the Oval Office in the White House and say my piece publicly - both before and then. President Trump is well used to disagreements and will obviously have many more in the time ahead.

This is not just about visits to the US President, as Deputy Martin knows. We have very long-established traditions with the United States. We were those emigrants who first saw Miss Liberty appearing out of the Hudson fog and said we had realised our ambition to be able to go to the United States. We want to hold on to pre-clearance, and that is subject to the international agreement between the two parties.

I fully agree that it is not righteous or correct policy to ban on the basis of country, nationality or creed. I have said that publicly already. If the drafting of an all-party motion can be achieved, I will have no objection to it. This is an issue that affects people from all over the world. I am merely pointing out, in the context of pre-clearance and the position of our people here in Ireland, the clarifications that are evolving from the White House in respect of the order issued by the US President.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I also wish to raise with the Taoiseach the executive order introduced by US President Donald Trump last week to halt the US refugee programme and the introduction by him of a travel ban for nationals from seven Muslim majority countries. If we can get agreement on an all-party motion, Sinn Féin will be up for that. This executive order is a breach of EU and UN obligations, in addition to being a subversion of acceptable standards of decency and equality.

It is disappointing that the Taoiseach has yet to raise this matter with the US Administration. He should have expressed his opposition to the blanket 90-day travel ban for nationals from Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Yemen. He should have made it clear that he will not be implementing this executive order at pre-clearance centres in Dublin and Shannon. This order will certainly undermine efforts to improve relationships between those of all faiths and nationalities throughout the world.

As the Taoiseach just said, generations of Irish fled starvation, poverty and conflict here to make a new life and contribute to building America. Millions of them and their descendants are still there. Let us note that they are among the most outraged over these recent months. This Dáil should note that very many Americans are opposed to President Trump's policies.

The Taoiseach should have acted more decisively on this matter. I acknowledge he has initiated a review, which is welcome, but the Government's primary responsibility must be to ensure this fundamentally unjust order is not used in Irish airports. I would like the Taoiseach to make that clear in his response. He needs to introduce measures, if necessary, to ensure no one is a victim of discrimination and that no international or domestic law is broken. He needs to ensure that this State's obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights and other international agreements are fully observed.

There have been widespread protests in the USA and an understandable and justifiable international outcry at the actions of the Trump Administration. Will the Taoiseach take this opportunity to advise the undocumented Irish in the USA not to be alarmed by recent developments? Like the Taoiseach, I know from my contacts that many people there are frightened for their futures. Will the Taoiseach meet them when he travels to the USA? His primary focus has to be to engage with the diaspora, stand with the undocumented Irish and maintain our strong ties with Irish America, particularly as regards the ongoing process of change on this island. Will the Taoiseach assert clearly the Irish people's total opposition in the strongest possible terms to the racist, anti-women and anti-immigration policies of President Trump?

The Taoiseach

Yes. Deputy Adams speaks about contact with the Administration. Obviously, diplomatic contact has been made. We have had clarification from the Customs and Border Protection people in respect of the matters I mentioned. Clearly, this is a matter of serious concern not just for Irish people or for those holding dual nationalities and dual passports here, but for people from all over the world.

The Minister, Deputy Flanagan, is on his way to Washington today and will be speaking with Speaker Ryan tomorrow in respect of this matter. Clearly, Congress has a serious issue to deal with in terms of its discussions about this particular order.

I intend to meet the undocumented Irish in Washington and other locations, as will every Minister who travels to America for the St. Patrick's week celebrations, the St. Patrick's week presentations and so on.

No person is vulnerable to being deported from here or being removed from the country because, under section 12 of the Aviation (Preclearance) Act 2009, if people are turned back at a preclearance facility either in Shannon or in Dublin and are looking for refugee status or whatever, they are then dealt with under Irish law. We are fully compliant with the international norms and requirements on us. Obviously, we have had legal advice in respect of that at Government level.

We have made this point and will continue to make it very clearly, as other leaders around the world will do, that blanket bans on any country on the basis of religion are not morally acceptable. I disagree entirely with the policy that has been laid out. Clarifications are evolving and some have been given in the past 24 hours to us here from the Customs and Border Protection personnel in Washington, who have been contacted formally by Ireland.

There are typically 325,000 passengers arriving in the United States every day. While all passengers can be subject to secondary screening, usually fewer than 1% are referred for such screening. The US authorities are very conscious of the good relationship that has existed between Ireland and the US for very many reasons and for very many years. They are fully aware of the preclearance facilities and their value and they are anxious that they would be continued for the future, as are we. We want to be perfectly clear, however, that we are fully compliant with human rights legislation. There is no infringement in that regard and the issues that are arising now legally are strictly a matter for the American courts.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I am still disappointed that the Taoiseach has not raised his opposition to this ban directly with the Trump Administration. I wrote to the Taoiseach last week about this. I also wrote to President Trump. The Taoiseach could have done the same. He is the Taoiseach and represents the people of this State.

The celebration of St. Patrick's Day in the USA is not the province of any US President, tradition or political party. These celebrations are inclusive and they cover a wide range of opinions, ethnic backgrounds and people of all colours and creeds. Sinn Féin has played a positive role in building and supporting Ireland's relationship with the USA. We will continue to do so.

However, we have also consistently criticised successive Administrations on their policies, both publicly and directly with Presidents Clinton, Bush and Obama. Our main engagement is with Irish America. It is the bridge between this island and the people in the USA. Many of them are as appalled as anyone else by the racist, anti-women and anti-immigration policies of President Trump. Does the Taoiseach agree that as well as standing up to and against President Trump's unacceptable policies, we need to keep building support within the USA for the process of change in our own country? That is not something the Government has done in the past. I ask the Taoiseach to commit to doing that in a better way in the future.

The Taoiseach

I reject that assertion from Deputy Adams. We have been very active over many years in dealing with the Administrations and members of the opposition in the United States. He is aware that I have had the privilege in recent years of being in Washington for St. Patrick's Day. It is not just about meeting the President but the Vice President, the Speaker of the House, the Irish caucus, members of the Republican Party and the Democratic Party, the immigrant associations, the emigrant associations, the Irish Lobby for Immigration Reform, ILIR, the United States Chamber of Commerce, the Irish diaspora and so many other elements of Irish United States business.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Will the Taoiseach give them a vote?

The Taoiseach

Every single person who represents us in this case will do the same in the United States right across America. It is more important than ever before that Ireland's voice would be heard and that we stand up for values and integrity. We were those people for two and a half centuries. I will stand up for the undocumented Irish. If they are to make America great, they have every right to pursue a legitimate policy of becoming US citizens, if that is their wish. I will not leave 50,000 of them isolated and on their own this St. Patrick's week.

Deputy Martin Ferris

Is the Taoiseach going to give them the vote?

The Taoiseach

It is more important than ever that Ireland's voice would be heard. Right across America we have influence and we will use it in a right and proper fashion.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Will the Taoiseach write to President Trump?

Deputy Michael Collins

In recent years community and voluntary groups the length and breadth of this island kept the country going when at times it looked like an impossible task. In particular, in rural Ireland when few other supports were at hand, the community and voluntary sector came to the forefront in delivering local services such as meals on wheels, tidy towns projects and maintaining towns and villages throughout the countryside. For many voluntary groups to survive, they need a workforce such as those that can be provided by work schemes, for example, the rural social, RS, scheme, community employment, CE, scheme and the Tús scheme. Workers on those schemes have worked diligently, many of them carrying out work usually done by local authorities which they can no longer do due to embargoes on recruitment of road maintenance staff.

In the past 12 months, it has become more difficult for community and voluntary groups to access workers, especially in rural areas where rules and guidelines are taking over from what was previously work on the ground. It cannot be more simple. A person who is in receipt of a social welfare payment and who cannot get another type of employment should be able to go on a work scheme and stay on it until employment is found for him or her. Instead of that being the case many people who are called to go on CE, Tús or RS schemes in rural areas in particular have been told they are on JobPath and although they do not have a job they are not allowed to go on any other work scheme until JobPath finds them a job. That is causing a nightmare for community and voluntary groups in filling positions to carry out works in the community, leaving many of them without a workforce, especially as many CE workers are now only allowed to stay on a scheme for 12 months and have to go back on welfare after that period.

It could not be more simple. If a worker is on a work scheme working while in receipt of a welfare payment, he or she should be commended on doing so and should be left on it until he or she finds employment. All those problems are not intended by the Department of Social Protection to undermine community and voluntary groups but that is the effect they are having. That is the case in particular in rural communities where a pool of suitable workers has to meet with such criteria and people find it almost impossible to get on a scheme. The new obstacles are creating nightmares for groups and leaving local communities without a workforce in many cases. I called in the programme for Government for separate rural and urban work schemes because one hat does not fit all. It is becoming more clear that rural issues such as low employment, low population and rural isolation are not entering into the mindset of those city-based individuals in the Department of Social Protection. I urge the Taoiseach to set up separate rural and urban work schemes and immediately reverse the rules which prevent a person on JobPath from being able to work on any other scheme.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy should look at the rural development programme launched recently by the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, which, for the first time in many years, is a comprehensive plan that is realistic and can be achieved. The CSO figures today show that unemployment is down to 7.1% from 15.2% just a few years ago. Last week, the Minister for Social Protection announced an extra 550 places under the rural social scheme for those on farm assist or fish assist depending on the areas in which they live. There are plans to look at community involvement and extensions of time for people who have been working on community schemes and who cannot be replaced that easily so I do not accept that there is no opportunity for every community around the country to benefit from this programme. This, together with the programme for Government, which impacts across the country and every spectrum, was evidenced in the response from communities all over the country last year in the centenary commemorative events for 1916 where communities came out and demonstrated their own power and potential. I believe very strongly in that.

The programme launched last week covers a range of opportunities for communities all over the country and the money is in place between now and 2020 for communities to make that happen. Whether it is through the local enterprise office or the Intreo office, the systems have changed so that people looking for employment or opportunity now have the chance to sit down with somebody directly to see what might be appropriate for them or in their best interests to allow them to get off social protection and get into a better system by having a job and a wage. While the Deputy's point can be valid in any area, I have to say that arising from the publication of the plan last week, there is the opportunity for every community to benefit from a range of things, many of which were identified in the Commission for the Economic Development of Rural Areas report a number of years ago and which are now embellished in this programme for rural development and the achievement of rural potential. I would advise the Deputy to follow through on elements of that with particular reference to the locality in west Cork to which he referred.

Deputy Michael Collins

I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. I hope the Taoiseach envisages that the rural plan will be one that will create many jobs. From what I have seen of it, I feel there is a lot of copy and paste in it but our judgment on that will be down the road. The set up of JobPath was poorly thought through, in my own view and the view of many in the community. Schemes like community employment schemes, Tús and the rural social scheme need further support. There should be no more instances where good workers are sent home after 12 months when there is no other employment in their community. There should also be no more instances of a person having to wait on social welfare for 12 months if on welfare. There should be an immediate work start in the community. There should be no more strict guidelines leading to more and more community and voluntary groups finding it impossible to fill positions. It is wrong to require individuals from peninsulas like Mizen Head, Sheep's Head and Beara throughout west Cork and throughout the country to have to travel possibly 25 miles in some cases to meet JobPath requirements. This shows little or no respect for individuals on welfare.

The need to set up a rural and urban works scheme is critical, in my view and in the view of the community and voluntary sector, as is a clear understanding of the needs in those communities like employment and travel. Eligibility for entry to all work schemes needs to be relaxed because if not, the communities in west Cork and throughout the country will be far sadder places in which to live.

The Taoiseach

Communities in west Cork are already doing work here. The Wild Atlantic Way is being developed as far as Mizen Head or Sheep's Head in terms of hospitality and tourism opportunities. There are so many opportunities community leadership can avail of through a series of issues in those programmes. They may not be of the order of millions but they certainly have the potential to employ people at local level and give them the opportunity to grow small enterprises from communities - not just those like the Deputy's communities but communities across the country. I know this myself from so many areas. There is so much work that can be done under the rural social scheme, for example, where a place might need to be improved and brightened up for elderly people living on their own.

There are many small ways in which the countryside can be improved by virtue of these particular schemes. However, the activities involved must be suitable and appropriate for the people taking part in the schemes. Participants might own their own farm or business, for example, which requires them to be able to work for a few hours. That flexibility is there. Unemployment has fallen from 15.3% to 7.1%. It needs greater imagination and creativity to enable workers to avail of the range of potential that is out there.

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly

We all agree Brexit poses a very serious risk to jobs in Ireland. The British Irish Chamber of Commerce estimates there is some €1.3 billion in weekly trade between the two countries, which supports approximately 400,000 jobs across the two islands. The fall in sterling is already putting agrifood companies out of business. If the United Kingdom defaults to World Trade Organization tariffs, particularly on food, that will put many more Irish companies out of business. As well as these serious risks, however, there are also significant opportunities. One estimate from the City of London is that some 35,000 jobs could be relocated in financial services alone. The chief executive of Lloyds Banks has said he has shelved plans for new job creation in financial services in the UK. The chief executive of JP Morgan said, before the referendum, that some 4,000 of its jobs might have to be relocated to elsewhere in the EU. Last week, in Davos, he said it was likely there would be more job movement at JP Morgan than was hoped would be the case. The chief executive of UBS has indicated the company is looking at moving some 1,500 jobs. The chief executive of HSBC has said Brexit is likely to see that company moving more than 1,000 jobs. The list goes on. Despite these opportunities, the word I am getting from senior executives working in financial services in London and elsewhere in the UK is that they have had neither sight nor sound of Irish politicians or officials. On the other hand, they tell me, they are being actively courted by the French, Germans, Belgians and many other EU nations. The Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly have contacted them to discuss moves within Britain. These companies are looking at their options for moving jobs because of the need to have a presence within the EU. They cannot understand why the Irish authorities have not been in contact with them.

Yesterday's meeting between the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister, Ms Theresa May, is clearly to be welcomed, as is the fact the Minister of State, Deputy Dara Murphy, is in London this week to engage with financial services. Welcome, too, is the launch today of a new Action Plan for Jobs which specifically highlights Brexit. However, what matters is what is happening on the ground. The business leaders I am hearing from both in the UK, particularly in London, and in this country are saying that when it comes to action on the part of the Irish authorities, not much is happening. There are plenty of words and good sentiments but not much is actually being done. Why is Ireland not actively reaching out to our expatriate community in areas like financial services in London, as IDA Ireland has done successfully in the United States for decades? Why are business leaders in London saying they are yet to hear from Ireland when it comes to Brexit?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy needs to go back to the people to whom he has spoken. He referred to what he has been hearing. I assure him that Ireland is very active in this field, and not just by way of the Minister of State, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, who is dealing with financial services. The Minister for Finance, many other senior Ministers and I, together with IDA Ireland and everybody else, are quite active in talking to interests in London who may wish to change location. We have a unique opportunity arising out of the many difficulties and challenges Brexit is presenting and will present. Our position is good on account of being in the eurozone, being so close to London, having an English-speaking population, and having at our disposal a proven track record and competence developed over the years in the area of financial services.

The Deputy will be aware that many queries have come into the Central Bank as financial houses or elements of financial houses decide where they will move to, and it might be to Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Paris, Dublin or New York. However, I assure Deputy Donnelly that we are not behind the scenes in talking to anybody who is interested in coming here or in presenting our case as an attractive location with a vibrant, energetic workforce, and with the capacity to continue to attract the "churn" of talent needed here and access to the Single Market and the European system, which is so important for financial services.

People I have met have very varied views about Brexit as far as London is concerned, but we will fight our corner hard and fairly. I can confirm to the Deputy that it has been confirmed to me that particular companies wish to move to this country, and in due course they will make their decisions formally, but we are right in there; we are not behind the scenes. With respect to the people who are giving the Deputy that information, it is not true to say that Ireland is not taking action and involving itself in serious conversations with people in London and elsewhere in the United Kingdom. With regard to what Deputy Donnelly pointed out, it is true to say from Bord Bia's assessment that in terms of value, the reduction due to currency fluctuations in the agrifood sector has been €500 million. That is why the Minister has brought in low interest, long-term credit for small firms. I notice some Irish agri-firms are acquiring others to be available and ready to rebound when the currency situation levels itself out. I spoke to Prime Minister May about a number of elements last night. In conclusion, we are very active in this field and we will fight our corner hard and fairly.

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly

In terms of Brexit, a new increasingly protectionist United States and the European Commission now retargeting our corporation tax regime, I believe jobs in Ireland are more at risk now than they were due to the banking collapse. That is why the Taoiseach's answer is so concerning. I accept that actions are being taken. I take the Taoiseach at his word when he says Ireland is doing things but the sense from business leaders and from the public is that while actions are being taken, too few actions are being taken. They are being taken too slowly and with too much deference to the European Union.

As an example, we keep hearing from Ministers that Brexit has not happened yet. I heard it said on a radio programme about two nights ago, but Brexit has happened. For the small and medium enterprises, SMEs, that are struggling, and the ones that have been put out of business, it is happening. For the people who are living and working around the Border regions, it is happening. For the Irish ex-pats who are looking at moving jobs back into the EU post-Brexit, it is happening. While I accept absolutely that there are conversations going on, senior Irish executives are saying that while they are being courted by numerous EU nations, they are not hearing anything from Ireland. My sense is that while actions are being taken, they are being taken too slowly and without a clear vision for success. Does the Taoiseach accept that there is an ex-pat community in London that we should be targeting and are not and that more needs to happen very quickly?

The Taoiseach

The Government deliberately beefed up Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland, which are very active in this field. We have 1,500 companies in the country exporting to the United Kingdom, and we are very conscious of that fact.

I take Deputy Donnelly at his word. He is telling me that business leaders in London are telling him that there is nothing happening on the ground. Let us do a deal here. If he gives me the names of the business leaders I will see that they are called together and given the full regime in terms of what is happening so that they will hear about the work that we are at and the extent of the connections. They will then know that what they are saying to the Deputy is inadequate in terms of its veracity and extent.