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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 31 Jan 2017

Vol. 936 No. 3

Bus Éireann: Motion [Private Members]

I propose to share time with a number of my colleagues.

As the Deputy is sharing time with six others, I ask him to be disciplined in making his contribution.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann:

recognises that:

- Bus Éireann is in serious financial difficulties with reported losses of €5.3 million in 2016, and greater projected losses in 2017;

- Bus Éireann has said that the company’s finances are in a ‘perilous state’ and that this could lead to job losses unless restructuring proposals are accepted;

- a major contributor to the falling revenues has been the commercial services which have struggled to compete with new market entrants in recent years;

- the company cannot continue to operate in its current loss making position which is depleting its reserves and that without action the company could face liquidity and solvency issues within the next 24 months; and

- any subsidisation of losses of the commercial operations of Bus Éireann, which competes with private enterprises, would likely encounter European Union competition and state aid issues;

acknowledges:

- that the report by Grant Thornton faults the Expressway services for the significant losses and recommends the possibility of significant reductions in Expressway services, up to and including Bus Éireann exiting these operations altogether;

- that such action would result in Bus Éireann shutting down many of its key routes serving large swathes of the country, leaving many areas in between big towns and cities with no direct Expressway services to Dublin or other cities and this cannot be considered acceptable;

- the fact that this is being considered as a potential option is creating huge uncertainty and fear and is evidence of the neglect of rural Ireland by the Government; and

- the need for the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport and the Government to act urgently to prevent the possibility of nationwide industrial action of the public transport services; and

calls on the Government to:

- commit to the importance of a public sector transport network that is adequately funded;

- take more determined actions to secure the future of Bus Éireann services nationwide and use its powers as a stakeholder to ensure that there are no changes to the Expressway service and that restructuring plans are agreed with workers and not imposed unilaterally;

- increase funding to Bus Éireann for free travel passengers as well as examining whether additional routes should be added to the public service obligation contract;

- review the route licensing system, in conjunction with the National Transport Authority, NTA, to ensure wider concerns such as those regarding rural isolation or whether competition is sustainable on a route are included in decisions as to whether to grant or refuse bus route licenses to operators; and

- introduce legislation to give the NTA greater licensing powers to approve or reject route amendments by Bus Éireann and private operators.

The purpose of the motion is to enable all Members of the Dáil to discuss the serious challenges facing Bus Éireann. We know that in 2015 the company endured a loss of €5.6 million and that losses in 2016 were between €6 million and €9 million. I record in the Dáil my party's commitment to a properly funded and sustainable public transport system for the benefit of all Ireland. While acknowledging that private operators have a role to play, we do not believe public transport, or large sections of it, can be left exclusively to private operators, the core objective of which is to make a profit. That is fair enough but the State and the Government have a duty and a responsibility to ensure that we maintain the core public service that is public transport. We have a duty and a responsibility to ensure that all regions are served and have the benefit of public transport. There are many people in communities who are reliant on public transport to get to work, medical appointments and college or to enable them to get out and about and remain connected with the outside world. Whether the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Shane Ross, likes to admit it, there is real fear and anxiety among those who rely on these services and among the people working in Bus Éireann.

Much of the loss is blamed on the Expressway service. We know from the leaked Grant Thornton report, of which I had only a draft copy but I at least had a copy of it, that the Expressway service is the cause of the problem. By way of example, a woman in my constituency in Rathowen, which is located on the N4, is a full-time carer for her blind sister. The only way she can get to either Longford or Mullingar is on the Expressway service. While there are other private operators on that route they do not stop at Rathowen. There are three operators serving the Dublin-Carlow-Waterford route, including Bus Éireann and two private operators. Bus Éireann, Expressway, is the only operator servicing the towns and villages between Carlow and Waterford.

I accept that the losses at the commercial arm of Bus Éireann cannot be allowed to continue but it is worth noting that Bus Éireann traded its way out of far more substantial losses in the past. The Minister has said that he has no role to play in the restructuring of Bus Éireann. In 2015, his predecessor at the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport commissioned a report on a plan for the restructuring of Bus Éireann. However, when that plan was presented to the Department nothing happened. Where is that plan that was presented to the Department in early 2016? There was obviously an acknowledgement that there were serious financial issues in the company and that corrective action needed to be taken, otherwise no plan would have been sought.

A full year has been lost by inaction on the part of the Minister and his predecessor. In terms of what could have been done, consideration could have been given to the use of better technology to ensure greater fuel efficiency across the full fleet of buses but that was not done last year. Last year, €7 million was paid for the hire of private coaches by Bus Éireann. We are now told it will be able to do without these coaches this year. We know that one of the main reasons for the spike in losses in 2016 was the high cost of insurance yet nothing has been done.

Why was the report commissioned by the Minister's predecessor brushed under the carpet? Why were other reports that we are told were presented to the Department in July, August and September not acted on? When was the Minister made aware of the challenges that Bus Éireann faces? Inaction on the part of the Minister and his predecessor has contributed to the precarious situation in which Bus Éireann now finds itself. The only time that the Minister has acknowledged that there was a problem with Bus Éireann was when he brought a memo in that regard to the Cabinet prior to Christmas. That memo was exclusively based on an information session or a briefing he had with the chairman of Bus Éireann. The Minister did not seek a copy of the report or obtain an alternative opinion on it: he just brought it to the Cabinet. Why was a full year wasted, leading to the need for a huge scurry of activity in the next couple of weeks?

I wish the new acting chief executive of Bus Éireann, Mr. Hernan, well. We all want to see Bus Éireann put on a sustainable footing for the benefit of all communities. The Minister may laugh but I do not think this is a laughing matter. We all want to see Bus Éireann put on a sustainable footing and to have our communities served by a good public transport service. We also want to see workers in Bus Éireann respected for the work they are doing. For any restructuring to work there needs to be buy-in from all stakeholders, including the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, Bus Éireann management and workers, the unions representing the workers and the National Transport Authority, NTA. If Mr. Hernan thinks that by threatening unilateral pay cuts before any restructuring plan is finalised he will get buy-in, he is sadly mistaken. Savings or efficiencies can be achieved in Bus Éireann through non-pay cuts, examples of which I gave earlier. The unions representing the workers acknowledge that greater efficiencies can be achieved but they need to be consulted in that regard and to not have preconditions forced on them prior to negotiations.

Last week I posed the following question to the Minister in a Topical Issues debate. Has the Department reviewed how the NTA issues licences? If such a review has been carried out, when will it be made public in order that everybody can have the benefit of it? The Taoiseach has stated - this was repeated by the Minister in his reply to the Topical Issues debate last week - that the NTA has rejected more licences than it granted. However, neither have acknowledged the huge increase in the number of routes that have been brought on stream. There has been no comment on the fact that private operators have been enabled to cherry-pick and head-run, which is the facilitation of private operators with a licence to operate on routes ten minutes prior to an existing Bus Éireann service. I do not blame the NTA for this because it is only implementing Government policy but what it is doing in facilitating this practice is reducing the profitable elements of Bus Éireann. What I have taken from the Minister's very limited input in this matter over the last few weeks is that he is happy for the private operators to run the commercial routes between the large urban areas, with the PSO being left to pick up the remainder of the routes. Why are we taking our company off the profitable routes and telling them that the only routes on which they can operate are the PSO routes?

That is not fair or right. Although the NTA has the power to grant a licence, which may be granted on the basis of a private bus company servicing certain routes, there are no consequences if the company decides to no longer service the towns in question. That is not right or fair.

Why has the Minister not sought an increase in funding from the Department of Social Protection? There has been no increase in funding since 2010 despite a serious increase in the number of people availing of the service. The Minister and the rest of the Government are facilitating an attack on the workers without considering any of the other issues, including where savings can be generated. That is not fair. The Minister has a responsibility to ensure we have an efficient, effective, sustainable integrated public transport system in the future. It is time he stepped up to the plate and used this opportunity tonight to state how he will achieve this.

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for giving me the opportunity to speak in the debate and compliment Deputy Robert Troy on tabling the motion. A number of issues arise, one being the future of Bus Éireann. Many communities throughout the country are very concerned about its future. Deputy Troy has said it is now time for us to step up to the plate. As a State, we must decide whether we want to ensure Bus Éireann can continue to serve the communities throughout the country.

Another issue arises regarding Bus Éireann workers. They have worked extremely hard for the company over the years and they are rightly concerned about their future and livelihoods. On the face of it, the Government does not seem to be recognising the seriousness of the plight of the company and its workers.

We have to make a decision on the future of Bus Éireann and ensure it remains in public ownership and continues to serve citizens, including in communities that are often disenfranchised and in remote areas. We must ensure the company remains viable and that its staff continue to be adequately rewarded for their work.

I thank Deputy Robert Troy for tabling this motion. Many are asking whether the Minister, owing to his inaction, recognises the risks to public transport and the damage that could be inflicted in rural areas if he does not intervene. It is said he perhaps lacks a vision. It is becoming clear, however, that he has abdicated his responsibility and abandoned his duties, but he is very deliberate in doing so. It is very clear his inaction was not by accident. A pattern is emerging. The agenda is clear in that, for ideological reasons, he is prepared to downgrade public transport, rural areas and public sector workers.

In my county, Wexford, there has been a failure and refusal to publish the Indecon report on Rosslare Europort. Iarnród Éireann is prepared to shut down the railway lines south of Gorey and now we may lose the Expressway services. This laissez faire attitude risks inflicting untold and irreparable damage on rural areas. The Minister's Fine Gael partners in government seem to be prepared to sit back and allow him to do this but ultimately it is they who, at election time, will have to answer for any pain inflicted on rural areas. I ask the Minister to reconsider and intervene in this matter to ensure rural Ireland is protected.

Any Deputy will tell one that any changes to the scheduling of buses or the routes they travel, however slight they may be, can send the constituency office into overdrive. The Bus Éireann Expressway network reaches into almost every town and village in rural Ireland. For many rural dwellers, the service represents the only avenue of transport. It is a crucial service and its importance to the social fabric of hundreds of rural communities across the country cannot be overestimated.

Deputy Robert Troy pointed to an example involving my constituency, namely, the Waterford-Carlow-Dublin route. Bus Éireann's Expressway service serves the smaller communities on the route, including my home parishes of Ballyhale and Mullinavat. The two private operators in the area, which are working against Bus Éireann, bypass these communities with a view to getting from A to B quicker and cheaper. It is important to keep this in mind. This is an example of where the State needs to step in and where it has an obligation to the people of the affected communities to ensure their service is maintained. It is beyond belief in early 2017, with the economy recovering and the State's finances steadily improving, that the people of these rural communities could realistically face being stranded in social isolation.

The Grant Thornton report faults the Expressway services for the major losses and recommends the possibility of significant reductions in Expressway services, up to and including Bus Éireann exiting these operations altogether. If the latter happened, it would be unbelievable. This would result in Bus Éireann shutting down many of its key routes across the country, leaving many areas in between the big towns and cities with no direct Expressway services to Dublin or other cities. This cannot be considered acceptable. That this is even being considered as a potential option is creating considerable uncertainty and fear. The Government is allowing rural Ireland to be neglected once again. Obviously we need to strike a balance when it comes to efficiency, minimum standards of operation and a good deal for the taxpayer when subsidising such services. It is time, however, for a more hands-on approach from the Government, which must give a guarantee that it will step in when necessary where a service is clearly required but may not be commercially viable. After mass last Sunday morning, pensioners asked that we keep the service in their small areas because, if it is not kept, they will have no access to transport and no connection. It is important the Minister takes that on board.

When I was leaving my home in Newbridge to go to work in Leinster House this morning, I had the options of driving, taking the bus or getting a train because I live close to a good rail network. The train is quite expensive but that is another argument. My brother, Cathal, who lives in my family home outside Rathangan, does not have those options. There is no railway station in the town. Cathal does not drive but needs to go to work every day. His job is incredibly important to him. He has Down's syndrome and going to work is the mainstay of his life. It gives him independence, a salary and an opportunity to socialise in his workplace in the way many of us want to do. Part of his journey to work requires his use of a public bus. If that is taken away from him, I dread to think of the impact on him. There are many more like Cathal in south Kildare, the rest of the county and across the country. So many people are absolutely dependent on Bus Éireann.

We are lucky to have four railway stations in County Kildare but many counties, including that of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, have none. That the Government is even considering the possibility of closing down Bus Éireann is appalling. It is leading to considerable fear among many people in rural areas. It is quite ironic that the Government published a paper last week with 276 actions for supporting rural areas while people feel they will lose out on the connectivity that is very important for their jobs, health and daily lives. I plead with the Minister to show leadership by confronting the crisis facing the public transport system. Ignoring the crisis will not make it go away. The workers on Bus Éireann absolutely need to be supported.

Public transport is not simply a matter of profit and loss. The laws of the free market and business do not have total control here, nor should they. In fact, the provision of public transport is one of the areas of public policy in respect of which it is important that the principles of equality and social need to remain key in determining the Government's role.

The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Shane Ross, lives in north Wicklow and, therefore, knows how crucial public transport is in meeting the economic and social needs of the people.

He is aware of the county's particular needs, in that more than 70% of the working population leave it every day to go to work, while there is a large number of isolated rural communities that require public transport in order to meet vital needs such as health appointments.

No one argues that Bus Éireann does not need to be placed on a sustainable footing, but that goal must see the wider needs of society being placed at the centre of any viable policy. People living in Arklow and Wicklow town are becoming more reliant on the Expressway service to Dublin. The No. 133 Expressway bus is not just full of students, tourists and day trippers; many use it to access appointments at, for example, St. Vincent's Univeristy Hospital. Without Bus Éireann's services, these vital transport needs would not be met by private operators. For those living in many towns and villages in rural west Wicklow, for example, Carnew, Tinahely and Kiltegan, Bus Éireann is the only provider of transport services to Dublin. Are the people living in rural areas in County Wicklow and east Carlow not deserving of public transport services?

The Government makes a great deal of noise about rural Ireland, but its actions show a disregard for the provision of a quality of service for the people living in rural areas of County Wicklow. Deputy Robert Troy's motion is about policy, not personality. Public service, not profit margins, should be the Government's mission statement. Fine Gael has already let its mask slip, given the comments last week on the free travel pass for pensioners. We know from testimony before an Oireachtas committee last week that Bus Éireann is on life support and will close without urgent Government action. That would be a disaster and a failure on the part of the Cabinet.

I move amendment No. 4:

To delete all words after “Dáil Éireann” and substitute the following:

recognises that:

- Bus Éireann is in serious financial difficulty;

- Bus Éireann has stated the company’s finances are in a "perilous state" and that this could lead to job losses unless restructuring proposals are accepted;

- a major contributor to the falling revenues has been the commercial services which have struggled to compete with new market entrants in recent years;

- the company cannot continue to operate in its current loss-making position which is depleting its reserves and that without action the company could face imminent liquidity and solvency issues; and

- any subsidisation of losses of the commercial operations of Bus Éireann which competes with private enterprises would likely encounter European Union competition and state aid issues;

acknowledges:

- that an analysis commissioned by the company identifies the commercial Expressway services as the source of significant losses and recommends consideration of the reconfiguration of certain Expressway services;

- the fact that this is being considered as a potential option is creating some uncertainty and fear; and

- the need for the company and trade unions to negotiate on changes to prevent the possibility of industrial action in a company that provides important public transport services; and

calls on the Government to:

- commit, while taking cognisance of the overall budgetary parameters, to the importance of an adequately funded public service obligation, PSO, transport network;

- review the adequacy of current funding levels associated with the free travel scheme, as well as examining whether additional routes should be added to the PSO contract;

- request that the National Transport Authority, NTA, continue to exercise its statutory powers to ensure that PSO services are adequate to serve the needs of rural Ireland, in the event that there are changes to Expressway services in the future; and

- bring forward amendments to the Public Transport Regulation Act 2009, taking account of the review of such legislation by the NTA and necessary improvements to strengthen public transport services to the consumer.

I thank Deputy Robert Troy for proposing the motion and everyone else who has contributed to the debate on it. It is the right motion at the right time. While I share the sentiments of nearly everyone who has spoken and agree with a great deal of what they have said, Deputy Robert Troy and I do not appear to share the road towards a solution. That is what politics is about.

There are elements of the Fianna Fáil motion with which the Government could agree and which it could support. The Government is committed to having a well-funded public transport system. That is why we increased by 11% the amount of money available in PSO funding. I have publicly acknowledged the need to examine the adequacy of the funding provided for the free travel scheme. It is right that we examine whether funding levels which have effectively been frozen at 2010 levels are adequate today. I will be working with my colleague, the Minister for Social Protection, on that matter.

Let the message go out in response to what has been said in this debate that rural Ireland is a top priority for the Government.

(Interruptions).

That is the truth. It is evident in some of the measures that have been taken and some of the pledges involved in the public transport debate.

Where is the-----

I am committed to ensuring rural Ireland will maintain an appropriate level of public transport connectivity. That is why I met the National Transport Authority, NTA, a few weeks ago to inform myself better of its statutory powers and track record in this regard. I was reassured by what it had to state. It will not be found wanting if routes and services are changed. The Government stands ready with it to assist rural Ireland. However, there are certain elements of the motion that the Government cannot support. In recent weeks we have witnessed some confused thinking. The motion ends with a call for the Government to interfere with Bus Éireann's conduct of its commercial Expressway business, regardless of the financial consequences or whether there are the legal powers to do so. The purpose of my amendment is to clarify the intent of existing policies and the opportunities available to the NTA to address concerns about the impact on rural Ireland's transport connectivity.

I am conscious of the concerns expressed by the Bus Éireann trade unions about the difficulties the company faces. However, the company is anxious to engage with them in negotiating a plan that will secure its viability. As Minister, I support constructive dialogue between management and employees, as it is only through such dialogue that the company's difficulties can be resolved. The State is ready to assist in facilitating the resolution of the industrial relations issues. It has been so ever since Seán Lemass established new industrial relations machinery in 1946. We should not undo his measured work and later subsequent reforms. Accordingly, we should avoid embroiling Ministers in resolving industrial relations issues that cut across the respective roles of the Workplace Relations Commission and the Labour Court. While I understand the implied concerns expressed in the Labour Party's amendment, the Industrial Relations (Amendment) Act 2015 provides a robust legal framework for the drawing up of sectoral employment orders. Sinn Féin's amendment is not acceptable, as it asks me to intervene in industrial relations negotiations and matters that are primarily the responsibility of the company. As for the amendment tabled by People before Profit in the names of Deputy Mick Barry and others, I am endeavouring to increase public transport funding as resources permit.

Bus Éireann faces significant financial challenges. The company comprises three distinct business areas - PSO services, school transport services and Expressway services. Its PSO services are the Exchequer-subvented services operated under contract with the NTA. There are approximately 230 routes within the Bus Éireann PSO network which account for approximately 40% of Bus Éireann's total passenger journeys in any given year. Last year the company received a subvention of just over €40 million, a 21% increase on the amount received in 2015.

That is changing all of the time.

The company's school transport services are operated by it under an administrative agreement with the Minister of Education and Skills. The company operates 23 intercity and inter-regional routes under the Expressway brand. Passenger journeys on Expressway services account for approximately 10% of the company's total passenger journeys in a given year. These routes are operated on a commercial basis, on the majority of which the company faces competition from other licensed operators. Expressway is loss making and the losses are now threatening the viability of the company as a whole. Expressway services do not attract a Exchequer subsidy and there would be serious legal difficulties with the provision of any Exchequer funding for what is a commercial service operating in a commercial market.

The PSO network is at the heart of Bus Éireann's public transport services and important to our society as a whole. Last year approximately 200 million people travelled on a PSO-subvented bus or rail service. In 2016 we spent €236 million in total on the PSO programme. This year we will spend approximately €262 million, 11% more compared to the amount spent in 2016. The system needs more money, despite the fact that we have spent approximately €2.3 billion since 2008. I am committed to socially necessary services and increasing the PSO subvention as resources allow.

Since the reforms introduced by the then Minister, Noel Dempsey, the NTA has been the single regulatory and licensing authority of the public transport system. Alongside the PSO network of public transport services, there are also commercial bus services. They laboured for nearly 70 years under anti-competitive legislation dating back to 1932. The basic premise of the Act was, as the Minister at the time said, "to divert traffic into the hands" of what were then the three big players in the transport industry. It was this legislation that Noel Dempsey sought to reform. He introduced for debate in the Oireachtas the Public Transport Regulation Bill 2009. He recognised the need for change and, in his introductory remarks, stated: "This Bill places the bus passenger at the centre of a new transformed national bus licensing regime." Since the Oireachtas passed that Act, I am glad to say the passenger has been moved to the centre of policy on commercial bus licensing and gained through the provision of more services, better frequencies and competitive fares. Passenger numbers have increased substantially. In 2015 approximately 23 million passengers travelled on a commercial service, or 9.5% more than in the year before.

Contrary to some of the commentary, there has not been market saturation or market deregulation as such. The market is still regulated, just in a different way than previously. This is not to say a commercial bus service operates in the same manner as a PSO service. Of course, it does not. The commercial operator is motivated by profit, as one would expect.

I recognise that we have had instances whereby commercial operators have reconfigured commercial services in the past with the result that certain towns and villages lost a public transport connection but let us not forget that under the legislation passed by the Oireachtas, the NTA has the necessary statutory powers to ensure continued public transport connectivity regardless of decisions taken by any individual operator. The NTA has assured rural Ireland that it can, and will, step into any area, consult local communities and assess what public transport services are required. The NTA will ensure rural communities will stay connected even if there are changes to Bus Éireann Expressway services. It could be little plainer than that.

It is clear that the dispute at Bus Éireann requires urgent discussions between management and trade unions without preconditions. The State can and will assist through the Labour Court and Workplace Relations Commission, WRC. Bus Éireann is now developing a new plan which it hopes will restore the company to a sustainable future. As to PSO bus services in rural Ireland, Bus Éireann will continue to offer socially necessary services and, importantly, will focus on offering the taxpayer real value for money in return for Exchequer financial support. Outside of that core challenge there is a strong legal framework and a key role for the NTA. As regards the licensing of bus services, my Department will examine the NTA's proposals for improvement of the existing licensing regime in terms of processes and enforcement. In addition, we will bring forward any necessary legislative enhancement that will further the interest of consumers and allow the orderly development of commercial bus services in the future.

I thank the Minister.

Let me add just one more paragraph as I wish to respond to the Labour Party's amendment. As to the Labour Party concerns about ensuring a level playing field for all operators and avoiding a race to the bottom, there is already a legal framework in the Industrial Relations (Amendment) Act 2015 to address the issue of sectoral employment orders under that Act. I also urge that the Sinn Féin and People Before Profit amendments be rejected. I, therefore, commend my proposed amendment to the House.

I understand Deputy Imelda Munster is sharing with Deputies David Cullinane and Martin Kenny. Is that agreed? Agreed.

When will the Minister, the Government and the NTA take responsibility for the financial crisis affecting the Expressway service and admit it was caused by bad policy, poor decision-making and gross underfunding? The first cause of the crisis is the oversaturation of routes. Seat capacity on the Dublin to Cork route has grown by 128%. Seat capacity on the Dublin to Limerick route has grown by 111%. There are similar increases on the Dublin to Waterford route and other routes. The Minister said recently that only five licences were issued in recent years but what he did not say is they equate to 104 services on top of all the others, after the damage had been done.

The second cause is the Department of Social Protection's underfunding of the free travel pass. Travel providers only receive funding from the Department for 41% of the average fare and journey. That has contributed massively to the financial loss. According to Bus Éireann's annual accounts, it pumped €41 million from the Expressway business into the PSO network because of State underfunding. That €41 million would have gone a long way towards reducing the €5 million loss of the previous year, the €6 million or €9 million loss from last year - it was pumped up over the course of three weeks from €6 million to €9 million - and the predicted losses for this year. When Expressway was making money, it was pumped into the PSO network to make up for the lack of State funding. PSO funding has been slashed from €49 million in 2009 to €33 million this year. That is a huge cut in funding for a public service in which we were supposed to invest and enhance.

The public transport network in Ireland has the lowest subvention level in Europe. The workers did not cause that. The reason for this financial crisis is bad policy, poor decision-making and gross underfunding, yet recently, large severance packages were paid to the former CEO and top management. One wonders whether that was a reward for the crisis. Last week we questioned the new acting CEO who would not reveal his salary but confirmed the previous CEO was in receipt of a salary between €180,000 and €190,000. Let us compare that with the earnings of the average bus driver with 20 years' service who is on a meagre income of €624 per week. Where is the punishment for top management for mismanagement and bad policy making? The workers have been targeted. Bus workers with 20 years' experience on €624 are targeted but where is the punishment for those who created the crisis?

The acting CEO of Bus Éireann also confirmed that routes had been identified to be axed but he would not reveal them. They are being kept secret. One must ask why that is the case. Is it in order that this crisis can be played out and manufactured as an industrial relations crisis? Is it to target the workers, because target the workers is what the company did? The Minister was repeatedly asked to agree to engage in negotiations with all the stakeholders and he refused. Why was that the case? Was it because the workers were always going to be the soft target? That seems to have been the plan. Why did the Minister refuse to engage in negotiations and choose to target the workers? Was it because it covers up a multitude of mismanagement, bad policy and poor decision-making? Was the reason for refusing to engage with stakeholders due to the attempt to deliberately run down the public transport network through underfunding?

I stated the staff members were targeted but in fact they were given an ultimatum. Workers who did not create this crisis were given an ultimatum that was demeaning, inflammatory and provocative. It included a 30% cut in average pay. Sunday premium rates were slashed from 100% to 20%. The 100% reduction in shift payments means that workers will no longer be paid to work shifts. All drivers will have their current contracts changed. Privatisation will be introduced and the casualisation of work will commence. The company will decide when and where it brings in casual drivers. It can select from a pool of casual drivers with zero-hour contracts. The company will decide when to bring in outside contractors and the decision will be at its sole discretion. Bus Éireann workers can be left to sit at home while the company brings in contract drivers on the minimum wage. In the same breath, Bus Éireann classes itself as a premium employer. What we have seen transpire in recent weeks is a semi-State company being directed by the Government to instigate a race to the bottom for workers' rights and conditions. That is shocking.

The CEO and a Minister said the workers were being given a 2% increase. Bus Éireann management said out of the other side of its mouth that the 2% increase would be paid if the cashflow is available. One must bear in mind that 30% of the average wage has been taken off workers who might never get the 2% increase. They are the same workers who did not create the crisis.

I asked the Minister to commit, in conjunction with the NTA, to carry out and publish a review of the loss-making routes on which private operators currently operate.

The review should include the number of private licences issued on these routes, when the licences were issued and when these routes ceased to make a profit due to saturation. It should also provide for the NTA to assess the renewal of such licences that are making a loss. I also asked the Minister to commit to publishing details of routes and services that have been identified for potential closure. I asked the CEO of Bus Éireann that question at last week's meeting of the Joint Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport. His response was that he did not want to identify the routes publicly because it would cause undue stress but the same acting CEO had no problem publicly telling workers that 2,600 workers could lose their jobs. He was not too concerned about causing stress or anxiety to the workers and their families.

Up until now, the Minister has adopted a hands-off approach. It is as if he is sitting on the bus and not driving it. In other words, it is as if does not have responsibility for his current portfolio. I am asking him to demonstrate leadership, to agree to intervene in the crisis and to instruct the management of Bus Éireann to engage with the stakeholders without any preconditions. If he does not engage at this stage, he knows what is down the road. It is very obvious that there will be chaos across the public transport network. He has a responsibility, as Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, to try to resolve this matter. I plead with him to take responsibility in his role as Minister and request that the management of Bus Éireann engage with the unions - in the absence of the provocative ultimatum and preconditions - in order to find a resolution to this. If he does not do so and if the chaos we all know is about to unfold happens, he will be directly responsible for that chaos because he did not intervene. Under no circumstances will anybody absolve him of that responsibility. He is the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport and has been called on repeatedly to intervene. Now is the time to ask the management of Bus Éireann to meet the unions without preconditions.

The Minister made an extraordinary remark to the effect that rural Ireland is a top priority for this Government. It bowled me over and I am sure it will bowl over many people in rural Ireland. It seems the Minister has gone full circle back to his roots as a cheerleader for Fine Gael and its failed policies. With all seriousness, the Minister cannot come into this House and say that this Government and the previous Government have treated rural Ireland as a top priority. We have seen the closure of rural Garda stations, including one in the Minister's constituency. We have seen health services stripped from rural areas, post offices and rural schools closed, small and medium-sized businesses not given the support they need and many towns and villages dying because of the lack of a joined-up policy and adequate resources. The fact is that rural Ireland is far from a top priority for the Government.

Bus Éireann is an essential part of our public transport network. It provides a good quality service to a huge number of towns and villages that would otherwise be isolated. The private model that the Minister and the Government really want will not work in the interests of rural communities. I am not against private operators but, first and foremost, I am for public services and a public transport system. The outcome of the Minister's policy will be a less efficient and less reliable service. It will mean reduced wages and conditions for employees, an increase in fares and no pension arrangements for workers. I do not think Fine Gael cares about these issues and, quite frankly, I do not think the Minister cares about them either. It is all about competition. It does not matter whether it is cheap labour and people get less once the private operators make a profit.

A total of 100% of bus routes in Waterford city were privatised. The Minister of State with responsibility for training and skills, Deputy John Halligan, stood on a picket line with workers and said that he would not be part of such a privatisation agenda. He has gone very mute on this issue in recent times. He jumped up and down and was very vocal when he was in opposition, as was the Minister. Now that the Minister is in government, he is the driver of policy but a passenger in respect of this issue. He is allowing himself to be a passenger because he does not want to take any responsibility. I plead with him to do his job. In many people's eyes, he is not doing his job. It is a cop-out to say that he cannot intervene. He can intervene and do his job but, just like those in Fine Gael, he is refusing to do so for ideological reasons.

There is a statement on the Bus Éireann website about the company's proud tradition of public service dating back to the foundation of the State. For 90 years, the national bus network has been an essential and integral part of Ireland's transport infrastructure. Public transport is a public service and, despite the Government’s obsession with the market, it does not have to be making a profit to be successful. A successful public transport service is one which provides an adequate transport service to citizens and if that involves subsidy, so be it. There is no denying that Bus Éireann is in trouble but it is no wonder when it seems to be run in such a way as to ensure it will not break even never mind make a profit. The reality is that people in rural Ireland have no bus services. I was recently contacted by a person who was called to attend a JobPath meeting. The person lives in rural Ireland and when they said that they did not have a car to get to the meeting, they were told to take the bus. This person would have to walk nine miles to get a bus, which only runs twice a week, to get to Carrick-on-Shannon. There is no public bus service in many areas in rural Ireland. The Expressway service has been taken away from many students who travel from rural areas to different universities. This is now in line to be slashed. There is all this talk about investing in rural Ireland and in people. However, people's lived experience is that it is being pulled away from them time and again. This effort by the Government to cut the Expressway service is another example of this.

The Minister needs to get on board the bus. He needs to take up the challenge and do a really good job of ensuring that Bus Éireann delivers what is outlined on its website. That is the Minister's responsibility and he needs to take it seriously and recognise that the ordinary people of Ireland need to have a proper service and that it is his job to ensure they get it.

Amendment No. 1 reads:

To insert the following after "Bus Éireann and private operators":

"- ensure a level playing field for all operators, avoid a race to the bottom and safeguard the interests of workers by committing to a sectoral employment order setting out minimum pay rates, as well as pension and sick pay schemes for employees across the sector."

I thank Fianna Fáil for bringing the motion before the House. If the party that cut the minimum wage is now to be a champion of worker’s rights, I call on it to support our amendment to its Private Members' motion on Bus Éireann. We certainly support the thrust of the motion. Our amendment is designed to ensure a level playing field for all operators, avoid a race to the bottom and safeguard the interests of workers by committing to a sectoral employment order setting out minimum pay rates, as well as pension and sick pay schemes for employees across the sector. We believe we need a sectoral employment order in this area.

Under the Industrial Relations (Amendment) Act 2015 introduced by the previous Government, the Labour Court can investigate the conditions of employment in an industry and set basic, legally-enforced conditions of employment. The Minister acknowledged that in his contribution, but will he support a move to achieve it in the sector? It needs to apply to the bus market right now. The future of Bus Éireann is of great concern and importance and I implore the Minister to listen and take heed of what is coming through in this debate from our side of the House. Our concern is that this crisis is being used to slash the terms and conditions of front-line staff in Bus Éireann. There must be no race to the bottom in this or any other industry. We worked hard in government to implement laws to provide workers' representatives with mechanisms to protect against such threats. These mechanisms are here and the Minister must push for them to be used. What sectoral employment orders in this industry would ensure is that workers are not impoverished on the altar of efficiencies.

We all know the company is in a difficult financial situation. The market place is highly competitive and margins are very thin. These are real concerns and real challenges which need to be tackled. We need strong leadership from management, workers' representatives and the Minister like never before. I know the workers and staff want to be part of solving these problems. We know there are difficulties in Bus Éireann and these need to be addressed as a matter of urgency. In the competitive environment Bus Éireann must be able to respond to competitive pressures also. The motion recognises that it is in a serious financial state with the big losses in 2016 that are expected to increase in 2017 should no changes be made.

We know the bus drivers and front-line staff in Bus Éireann are willing to discuss proposals to ensure the company remains viable and is in a position to maintain and indeed grow its service into the future. The Grant Thornton report provides for a number of options, including the nuclear option of Bus Éireann ending its Expressway service altogether. Nobody in this House, including members of the Government, wants that to happen. Expressway is a very good service which delivers a public need with certainty, but it is operating with one hand tied behind its back. The National Transport Authority must be tasked with urgently reviewing the Expressway routes, reporting on the level of public service obligation funding associated with those routes and providing subvention accordingly. The lack of sectoral agreements within the industry tilts the playing field towards private operators paying lower wage rates. The net result, as we have seen, is customers voting with their feet and moving to private contractors, rail services or their cars. All methods of solving this issue need to be on the table.

We must examine the role subvention can play in addressing the challenges for Bus Éireann. Our levels of subvention are well below European norms and that must be addressed as the economy continues to improve. I acknowledge there has been some improvement in that regard this year. At the moment, only 41% of the price of the fare for customers entitled to free travel is paid for by the Department of Social Protection. If there is room for this payment to be increased, that might form part of a solution. It will not, however, be the full solution. In the course of getting to grips with the transport brief in recent months, I have spoken with many transport experts, some academics and interested individuals. Almost to a man or woman, they have referred to the vital importance of a local and national bus network. We have a Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, which is answerable to the Minister, setting policy and allocating funding, alongside the NTA, which is responsible for awarding licences and setting bus routes.

If the Minister supports the retention of a bus network which serves the entire country, he must engage with both the Department and the NTA to ensure the future of that network is not set back decades as a consequence of the approach that is being taken in this instance. A failure to reach a solution in the coming weeks could have a ripple effect across our entire transport sector. I cannot overstate the potential negative impact if this process continues down its current track of megaphone diplomacy. The leaking of the management's plans to the press was a cack-handed move that has led to further mistrust among workers and their representatives. The draconian measures that were leaked seem designed to scare and infuriate the workers. Such drastic measures will never be agreeable to trade unions that achieved so much over such a long time. Will the Minister instruct the NTA to set up a consultative group, as provided for in the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008, and place it on a standing basis? The group should include all relevant stakeholders, including representatives of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. Such an arrangement is provided for in the 2008 Act but has not yet been deployed.

Unfortunately, the Government seems happy to allow the seeds of discontent to be sown among workers throughout the country, in many sectors and in many industries. At best, its approach could be considered poor judgment; at worst, it seems deliberately antagonistic. When my party was in government, in far more difficult financial times than this Government faces, we ensured as best we could that negotiations with trade unions were ongoing. There was always a presence in government which instinctively looked out for the worker. That is no longer the case. In the nine months since this Government was formed, we have seen industrial action, work stoppages and discontent more usually associated with deep recession than economic recovery. It is difficult not to conclude that the hands-off approach we are seeing to this crisis is deliberately antagonistic. The Minister must take hold of the crisis now. He is the only person with the authority to get all the stakeholders around the table, build up trust among them and work towards a solution. He has an opportunity, too, by way of our amendment, to lay down a marker for the bus industry and set it up to be a level playing field. A sectoral agreement to set minimum standards of pay and conditions in the industry would be a progressive step forward. It would help to build trust and to find a solution to the current difficulties. The fears of workers that wages and conditions will deteriorate and jobs will be shed must be allayed.

I commend the Fianna Fáil motion before the House. It was alarming to discover in recent days that the different proposals that are being put forward by the board of Bus Éireann are only now coming to light. Nothing has been handled well in this matter. The Minister says rural areas are a priority. If that is so, surely he will ensure no bus routes are cut in those rural areas? If the Government could make a statement to that effect, it would allay people's fears.

Putting myself in the shoes of a private bus operator, I would not choose a route that was likely to see me losing money. Bus Éireann, on the other hand, is obliged to do the good, the bad and the in between. Private operators, meanwhile, will not even buy a bus unless they are sure of making money. That is the problem we are seeing across the country. In recent years, the National Transport Authority seems to have adopted a stance whereby it envisages privatising the entire bus service. As other speakers noted, in parts of rural Ireland there is absolutely no bus service. When it comes to the school transport service, we are fighting day in and day out to ensure people can access the service. Children are being told that even though their brother or sister went to a particular school, they cannot access transport to that school because of the new rules.

It was alarming to hear Bus Éireann's acting CEO, Mr. Ray Hernan, speaking about insurance and the need for an efficient service. If changes are required, including in legislation, we need to make them. Everybody supports an efficiently run bus service but we cannot drop the hatchet on it. Since 2009, the public service obligation funding to the bus companies has reduced, even though some one third of citizens are now covered under the free travel scheme. No company can sustain that type of pressure. The Minister for Social Protection should be here today to deal with this aspect of the problem. The bus is pulling out of town and if the Government does not get on it, Ministers will be hiring another bus in the coming months for the purpose of canvassing around the country. That is what will happen if bus services are cut.

Deputy Mick Barry is sharing time with Deputy Bríd Smith.

On three occasions since January 2015, Bus Éireann brought forward plans to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport which sought to address the issue of losses within the company, specifically within its Expressway operations. On each occasion, the Department delayed taking action. It is hardly a coincidence that the Department delayed action in 2015, in the run-up to the general election. Crisis measures at Bus Éireann would not have chimed well with the Fine Gael election mantra that we needed to keep the recovery going. Dither and delay were the name of the game, and that game was played for the short-term party political benefit of Fine Gael.

Anybody who ever read the Minister's columns in the Sunday Independent will know he is an anti-union Minister. Meanwhile, Mr. Ray Hernan, the new boss at Bus Éireann, cut his corporate teeth at Ryanair, a company with a pronounced anti-union management ethos. On 11 January, in a letter to workers, Mr. Hernan said the threat of insolvency within 18 months was very real. On 25 January, he told an Oireachtas committee the company could be insolvent by the end of the year if losses continue. Clearly, Mr. Hernan is putting the issue of the shutdown of Bus Éireann on the agenda. This is a company that employs 2,600 workers. Leaving aside the cost of redundancy and social welfare payments for those workers and their families, the fact is they pay more than €50 million per year to the State in payroll taxes. Is the Minister for Finance prepared to forgo more than €50 million in annual tax revenues in order to allow the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to refuse to intervene to save a public service that might cost the Exchequer €9 million in losses this year? These are the economics of the madhouse. They are Thatcherite policies and they make no sense whatsoever.

At the Oireachtas committee I gave the example of a friend of mine, John, who has been a bus driver with Bus Éireann for many years. I reported as to how John faces a cut of €136 per week from allowances he currently receives for driving on Sundays, performing overtime during the course of the week and driving a bus long distances out into the county of Cork. That man is facing a total of more than €6,500 per annum in cuts.

Bus Éireann workers and their unions have made it abundantly clear that they will take strike action rather than sit idly by and watch Mr. Hernan cut their pay by thousands of euro per annum. If I were an Iarnród Éireann worker or a Dublin Bus worker, I would not be prepared to stand idly by either and allow the Bus Éireann workers to be beaten up on knowing that my direct colleagues and I could very well be next. A national transport strike is implicit in the current situation given the level of provocation taking place.

Every trade union and every worker in the land has a vested interest in ensuring a precedent for massive wage cuts is not set in this example. An injury to one is an injury to all and that is as true today as it was in the days of James Connolly and Big Jim Larkin.

It is not that long ago that the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Shane Ross, knocked on my mother's door, as he does at every election, looking for the vote. He should be warned that he is knocking on the door of a bus worker's family, and I think he will be run out of it in future, given his role as the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport.

In the not-so-far-off past the Minister railed against the establishment of quangos and those who avoid their ministerial responsibility. Ironically, he is now using a quango, the National Transport Authority, NTA, to avoid his own responsibility. He claims repeatedly that this is an industrial relations issue and not anything to do with him.

I argue this is a manufactured crisis in Bus Éireann. It was manufactured by successive Governments, which cut subvention from 2009 until last year and last year's increase does not wipe away the consequences of the systemic underfunding over the years and decades prior to that. The crisis is manufactured also by the ideology of the National Transport Authority and its insistence on the free market dogma of competition and issuing licences to private operators on a vast scale. Not only has it effectively flooded the capacity on key intercity routes, it continues to harbour plans for lunatic tendering competitions for all the public service obligation routes.

We should be clear that the crisis in Bus Éireann has nothing to do with improving public transport or getting people out of their cars. The opposite is the case. It is ideology masquerading as economics and market competition to facilitate private operators who make vast profits and who are driving down the rates of pay and conditions of its workers, as well as driving down the right of all workers to expect decent conditions.

Farcically, as the National Transport Authority and the Government takes money from the State, the Government is taking money from Dublin Bus; it took €2 million from it last year.

I wish to spend the final two minutes commenting on the Fianna Fáil motion. In typical fashion, Fianna Fáil gives the appearance of saying one thing when it is actually saying another. It is using all the usual flurry of sympathy but signifying nothing. It is offering tea and sympathy to Bus Éireann workers but notes strongly that the European Union rules of subvention may inhibit dealing with the actual cause of the problem. I note how readily the soldiers of destiny will ignore European Union subvention rules if they impinge, for example, on the taxes of the multinational corporations and their affairs but how obedient they can be to Europe when the issues of workers' rights and public services are affected. They are silent on the impact and the role of the National Transport Authority, but that is hardly surprising. After all, it was they who invented the agency and gave it its remit, including one to do by stealth what they could not do openly, that is, achieve the effective privatisation of our public transport services.

I commend the workers in Bus Éireann for the stance they have taken so far. I reject the spin that this is a basket case of a company on the verge of collapse. It is a company that has been undermined deliberately by Government and, considering that Bus Éireann has seen a 10% growth in passenger revenues since 2010 and a 7% growth in passenger numbers since 2011, the workers are right to reject this so-called plan that will absolutely undermine their conditions. I encourage them to remain strong and not to entertain the manufactured crisis of this Government and the NTA, behind which is the Minister's hand and the wider apparatus of the State.

I encourage other transport workers, especially those in Dublin Bus and in Irish Rail, to support their fellow Bus Éireann workers in this fight because what befalls them today could be visited on all workers in the transport industry tomorrow. If this Dáil motion and our amendment will not reverse the Minister's policy and that of the NTA, I believe action by workers and solidarity from all workers and trade unionists could reverse his policies and force him to cough up and speak up on their behalf.

I understand Deputy Joan Collins is sharing time with Deputies Thomas Pringle and Thomas P. Broughan.

Yes. I welcome the motion and I am glad to have the opportunity to speak about the situation in Bus Éireann this evening but I want to state clearly that despite what the Minister has been putting out, this is not an industrial relations dispute. The unions have made a wage claim. Bus Éireann has pulled out of the Workplace Relations Commission process and it is a matter of choice as to whether one goes into discussions on a pay claim. In the meantime, it has written three letters to its employees stating how it will cut their wages by 25%. That is the current position. We are not in a situation where there is an industrial relations dispute. We are in a situation where the company has issued letters to its employees and has not engaged at all with the unions representing those workers.

In 2009, Bus Éireann had a public subvention of €44.9 million. Today, it is €33.7 million. The company is trying to provide the same service with 25% less funding. We know the Department of Social Protection funding has remained frozen since 2009 even though the level of service has increased. Meanwhile, the Government and its predecessors have paved the way for private operators to come into the market and cherry-pick the most profitable routes serving only large towns and motorways, going directly from point to point and maximising profits.

Bus Éireann, by contrast, has sought to provide for those who need connectivity in more isolated areas. That is particularly the case with users of the free travel pass who are often elderly and amount to as many as one third of Bus Éireann customers. Those citizens will be left on the side of the road by private operators but the Government has penalised Bus Éireann for providing that essential service. Due to insufficient public funding, the company is actually losing money from every extra passenger it takes.

To deal with the crisis the company brought in a new management team under a shroud of secrecy. No one knows how much the previous CEOs or managers got when they were let go. We have Ray Hernan, who is notorious on foot of the anti-union positions he took in Ryanair. Brendan McCarthy, who was in IBEC, went in to do a hatchet job in Irish Ferries when it was being pulled apart at the time. Their solution is to replicate the low-wage private operators, cut terms and conditions for Bus Éireann workers and allow for a race to the bottom.

If the Government is not intent on turning rural transport in Ireland wholesale over to the market and if it wants rural transport to be publicly and properly funded and provided for those who need it, it must take determined action now to secure the future of Dublin Bus. The Minister and the Government must do that as otherwise, they are leaving Bus Éireann and public transport in rural areas in the lap of the markets, which will not work.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this important and timely debate on the motion. In terms of the operations carried out by Bus Éireann and the public service obligation, the latter cannot be removed from the Expressway service in such a clean manner because it provides a huge public service to many citizens.

This must be taken into account when considering the cost of the service.

A total of 30% of Expressway passengers have the free travel pass. As stated by Deputy Brendan Ryan, the Department of Social Protection pays only 41% of the cost of a ticket for a passenger using free transport. Bus Éireann has a disproportionate number of free travel pass passengers on its Expressway service as against private operators because it operates with a large social responsibility and part of its service is social. It provides services to provincial towns and villages which private operators will simply will not provide. Because private operators go from point to point such as from Galway to Dublin along the motorway network, they have a disproportionately high number of paying passengers who pay to travel from Dublin to Galway, without any thought being given to the service element required to be met by Bus Éireann. This is missing from the argument and the Government is deliberately abdicating its responsibility. The NTA refuses to recognise this because, as has been said, it is driven by a market-led competition mantra and grants licences to compete with Bus Éireann services which affect the future viability of Bus Éireann. We have to properly subsidise and support Bus Éireann and recognise once and for all the social aspect of the business it operates as being viable and desirable.

How much has the Expressway business subsidised other Bus Éireann business as PSO funding has been reduced over many years? Does this happen in Bus Éireann's accounts? How much money has been transferred from Bus Éireann to support and cross-subsidise Irish Rail services over the years? What impact has this had on its business?

As President Trump might say, it is so ironic that the motion has been tabled by Fianna Fáil, given that it played a huge role in the race to the bottom in public transport, beginning with the Public Transport Regulation Act 2009 which the Minister will remember. A number of us argued about the dangers we see today in an incredible and vicious assault on the drivers and other staff of Bus Éireann through cuts of more than 30%. Bus Éireann has pumped a lot of its money, €41 million, into the commercial operation because of the fact that PSO funding has been slashed by 60% since 2009. The Fine Gael-Fianna Fáil Government was totally responsible for this. It slashed PSO funding and refused to fund public transport. If we look across Europe, as the Minister knows, there are many brilliant public transport systems, from Spain to the Netherlands and across to eastern Europe, where up to 90% of the costs are subsidised by the state.

The 2,500 workers have been subject to a pay freeze since 2009, while there have been two cost reduction programmes. The details of the assault given to us by SIPTU and the NBRU are astonishing and it is also astonishing that the House should countenance it. There has been a 100% loss of Sunday premium payments and public transport services must be run every day. The rota and shift premium has been eliminated to reflect so-called race to the bottom competition. Overtime rates have been reduced by up to 40% or 50%. There has been a 10% cut in basic allowances and a change to monthly payments. We have seen examples where people wanted to go back to receiving weekly and fortnightly payments to manage low-income households. Sick pay benefits have been slashed by up to 30%. This represents a devastating attack on the workforce of this important national company and important national service.

It may have been told earlier, but I will tell the story of one driver. He is 53 years old and has worked for Bus Éireann for the past nine years. He works a seven week roster, working five days each week. He works four Sundays out of seven. His gross annual earnings are €46,419, almost one quarter of the Minister's wages. He is married with one child and has a mortgage, a credit union loan and outstanding debts since the recession. Drivers have not received a pay rise since 2008, but half of the coaches they drive have increased passenger capacity, from 53 to 78 seats. The drivers also took a pay cut in 2014 for 19 months to help Bus Éireann to recoup some losses. In the case of the particular driver in question, the impending cuts will equate to a loss of €160 per week or €8,300 per year.

I have told the Minister that I want him to stop standing like a sphinx and get out and get involved in dealing with the issue. This is the national public transport system and all of our constituencies require this vital national service to be maintained. As the NTA stated, no town or village should be forgotten. That is the Minister's responsibility.

I support the motion. Bus Éireann provides essential services throughout the country and it is important that its future be secured. Proposals to cut the Bus Éireann Expressway service would have a huge impact on the people of Ireland, in particular those living in rural Ireland. Bus Éireann plays an important role by providing rural communities with regular access to towns and cities. It is very much part of rural Ireland and provides connectivity. The loss of vital transport links to Dublin would leave many rural communities even more isolated. Any attempt to leave communities without any transport link to the capital must be resisted. Economic development and growth in rural regions are largely dependent on being connected through good public transport links. If the Expressway service to Dublin or other cities is cut, the economic gap between rural and urban Ireland will increase.

Although the Expressway service is fully commercial, it is still run by a semi-State body which is funded by the taxpayer. It has a public responsibility to serve all communities throughout the country. It must not abandon this responsibility. No other company provides direct links to neighbouring towns and cities. If it cannot stand alone as an independent commercial service, the Government needs to look at making the routes PSO routes. Furthermore, the winding down of Expressway services could lead to the direct loss of more than 500 jobs and the indirect loss of many more, as many firms throughout the country depend on business from Bus Éireann.

Bus Éireann needs increased funding from the State to ensure an adequate subvention is provided. Bus Éireann ticket prices for regional services are unaffordable. An example is the cost of a single adult ticket from Castletownbere in west Cork to Cork city which at €24.50 is totally unaffordable. It means that people are forced to use private cars rather than the public service. A reduction in price through an increased Government subvention would undoubtedly lead to an increase in usage and, in the long term, an increase in profits. Having a properly functioning public transport system is a key issue nationally when it comes to promoting balanced regional economic development, preventing social isolation and protecting the environment. We need to protect existing routes and increase investment without delay.

The position in Bus Éireann is very worrying. The recent presentation made by the acting CEO of Bus Éireann, Mr. Ray Hernan, to the Oireachtas transport committee was frightening when he forecast that losses for 2016 would be up to €9 million. His assertion that the company could be insolvent by the end of the year without drastic cost reductions was very concerning for the travelling public and employees of Bus Éireann. As reported in The Irish Times this morning, Bus Éireann has been in contact with the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport for two years regarding the deteriorating financial position and mounting losses of the company which continue to erode its net assets and threaten its survival across all services. It is clear that jobs, routes and services are on the line. In situations such as this rural areas come off worst as the densely populated areas close to the centres of power retain most services. It is totally unclear which routes are threatened most, but I argue that the final decision must take into account the social, not just economic, implications. Every service people living in rural Ireland value and need must be fought for tooth and nail and bus services are no exception. Public service obligation funding which subsidises Bus Éireann on unprofitable routes is a lifeline for pensioners, students and workers who do not have cars and live in isolated areas.

I am opposed to axing the long-distance Expressway service but I recognise the need to provide the most efficient operation possible and the need to be reassured that management and work practice issues within the service, which may contribute to high losses, are reduced or eliminated.

There is much to recommend in this motion and the general thrust is fairly outlined in the current position. However the proposal not to change or to remove the Expressway services is unduly restrictive and calling on the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Shane Ross, to act urgently to prevent the possibility of a national industrial action is unwise. Intervention by the Minister in these circumstances should be an act of last resort, not of first resort. I have no doubt that a Fianna Fáil transport Minister, faced with a call to intervene in an industrial dispute like this, would not do so. However, the Government's vision for bus transport in this country is unclear. The Government is not a disinterested party and the Minister needs to set out his stall and his overall vision for bus and other transport services. At the same time it would be unwise to tie the Minister's hands by involving him directly in the current impasse between management and the bus unions.

Undoubtedly, the private sector has made inroads into old Bus Éireann monopolies, in many cases providing popular high-quality, long-distance end-to-end services at affordable prices. It may be that the private sector is in a position to take over some routes from the semi-State company and there is nothing wrong with a mix of State, private and community services. In County Clare, the community-organised Clare Bus provides an outstanding community bus service in areas of Clare where there would be no transport at all. This provides a very cost-effective, essential, client-orientated bus service which caters for all travellers' needs, including those with disabilities. The Minister needs to clear the fog, assess what we have, determine what our bus transport policy should be and act accordingly in a social and cost-effective manner.

The Minister met the NTA a couple of weeks ago to better inform himself about the powers it had and he says he was reassured in this regard. He said they would not be found wanting if routes and services are changed. He said, "The NTA stands ready to assist rural Ireland". That is fighting talk. There are many agencies such as the NTA, the TII and the HSE, which have abandoned rural Ireland and this is one of the last of them. I wish the Minister well in his big portfolio but I plead to him to sort out the sorry mess in Bus Éireann. Many students and old people have no other way of travelling anywhere. Students have to travel to and from college and there is a public service obligation for pensioners. I travelled by train today and was impressed by the way an elderly lady was treated, with a ramp provided as she got on and one waiting for her when she arrived in Dublin.

For a long time Bus Éireann has not stepped up to the mark and I blame management for this. It has allowed the company to drift, wander and meander. We have all seen the lovely advertisement pictures of the red setter dog prancing along. We will be left with the dog and no buses. We will have no jobs either. People here criticised the new management, saying they came from the same stable as Michael O'Leary, but that might not be a bad thing because we need to badly shake up the management. Bus drivers have told me they are leaving Clonmel and other areas a half an hour after the private bus. They are being blindfolded and their hands are tied behind their backs, while the private bus is full. I do not know what Deputy Troy is muttering but I did not interrupt him. Fianna Fáil was in power but they did not give much help to Bus Éireann either. There are too many quangos and too many fat cats getting fatter and richer. Some of the management left fairly fast with good packages. I salute Ring a Link, of which I was a founder member. It is a three-county project for rural transport and without such things rural Ireland would be forgotten about.

I do not see many Fine Gael Ministers supporting the Minister tonight, though I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Catherine Byrne. We need to see that there is still life in the dog and that he is not a dead dog. We need to see him again but with the bus, rather than a rotting service which is being denied to the people of rural Ireland. We need the workers to be treated fairly and they need to make changes too, which they are willing to do. We need careful implementation and careful assessment and if the NTA stands willing, its time has come. Let it stand up and be counted and see what it can do for rural Ireland, instead of taking everything away.

I am sharing my time with Deputy Eamon Ryan. It is entirely proper that the Minister's constituents and the people of Dublin have good quality public transport such as the DART, Luas and bus services, both in Dublin and from Dublin to all the major towns and cities throughout the country. The towns in my constituency such as Ballina, Nenagh, Roscrea, Templemore, Tipperary town, Carrick-on-Suir, Cashel and Clonmel have substantially fewer transport rights and substandard bus and rail service. We have lost our bus routes in Carrick-on-Suir and the Minister and Iarnród Éireann want to close our rail lines through Ballybrophy, as well as the Limerick-Waterford line, where trains are cancelled almost on a daily basis and which is earmarked for closure by the Government. My constituents are entitled to the same adequate, good-quality transport service as are the people of Dublin. Far from cuts and the closure of routes, we need more services. The Minister should enact legislation to ensure more good quality transport services for all. The public, the elderly and social welfare recipients, wherever they are in the country, are entitled to a good quality public transport service at reasonable rates. Public transport services should not be subject to market forces as they are public services.

The current difficulties are as a result of Government policy going back at least as far as 2009, which has been continued under the Minister and the current Government. The subvention has been reduced from €44 million in 2009 to €33 million currently and the difficulty is anything but an industrial relations dispute. It is a policy issue that has been driven by the Minister and the Government. The difficult financial state of affairs of the company is largely as a result of the reduction in the subsidy and the free travel scheme, which is inadequately subvented by the Government.

The attack on Bus Éireann workers is a deliberate and vicious assault, not only on their pay but on their conditions. A 30% reduction in pay is absolutely unacceptable and must and will be opposed trenchantly by the workers. It is more than an attack on the workers at Bus Éireann, however. It is attack on all workers, whether they be in the public or the private sector, and it is the thin end of the wedge for privatisation. The company must and will be defeated and strike action, including a sympathetic strike, is the right and only response to this vicious attack on workers by the company.

I am pleased to follow Deputy Seamus Healy because he represents Clonmel which, in public transport terms, is a hugely historic and important town. Bianconi had the laborious job of carrying picture frames around rural Ireland to sell and he saw rich people flying by in their coaches and resolved to set up one that would carry everyone. He did that and his first route was from Clonmel to Limerick.

It stopped in Carrigavantry and the Glen of Aherlow, which was the first stop, and then every 20 miles. He ended up with a system which was the Ryanair of its day, except it had a bit more class in terms of how everyone was catered for. The service went as far as Belmullet and was then all over the country. It was an integrated public transport system. We should be looking what Bianconi did and we should create a new network.

We have a real crisis at present in Bus Éireann but the solution cannot just be sticking to the existing system. We need to put more money into public transport, but we should use the opportunity to change the entire system and create a new and much more extensive network. We must be ambitious and think like Bianconi in terms of what we could do, particularly for rural Ireland which is disadvantaged because it does not have any real functioning public transport system compared to what we might want if we had a Bianconi vision for this world.

As I understand it, the real problem in Bus Éireann at the present time concerns the competition between private operators that are allowed to run from city to city on motorways and Bus Éireann's competing service which is much slower because stops must be made in a number of towns along the way. The answer in creating this new network is to turn that into an advantage by ensuring that there is an integrated mesh network. This would mean that the alternative bus that is stopping off at towns en route would be able to pick up passengers all along the way and would, thus, become profitable because it would have that source of custom to which a point-to-point city bus does not have access. The way to achieve that is to examine some of the other State services and systems and connect them together to pull other passengers in.

One obvious example which has been tested in other countries and which works would be to see if we can use An Post and Bus Éireann together. For example, postal vans which deliver parcels to rural Ireland could become dual-function vehicles and could be used to carry passengers also. We would then begin to have an interconnected system which would be flexible. An Post needs a big investment to make that happen, but it is on the point of real change. Their mail business is going, so they have to develop a parcel delivery system and other systems.

Why not think big and ambitiously in this national planning framework we are about to put in place? Rather than considering this as a crisis and asking how we can keep the current system going, we should think differently and consider connecting all those towns to which I refer. It could involve other services. We are spending €50,000 a day on taxis for the health service. Could we get them to be part of this integrated network system? Some school buses are still only used for school hours and are empty in the middle of the day.

We should also connect with the private sector so that when the Bus Éireann bus arrives in a town, if there is a private operator going in the opposite direction from that town, there should be an integrated ticketing system. We should have the same system as at bus stops in Dublin whereby people can see real-time information on when the next bus is coming. People will then know they can make a connection. We must create a meshed rural public transport system that works. That needs investment and it may mean that we will not spend so much money on roads. We will instead start spending on public transport that will use those roads first and foremost.

Let us be like Bianconi and think big. Let us have a service from Clonmel to Belmullet stopping at all points in between and starting at the centre of the world, Carrigavantry, where my family had one of the first stage posts - they later turned it into a pub - that took in Bianconi's horses. I am very proud of this.

Deputy Dara Calleary is sharing time with Deputies Jackie Cahill, Mary Butler, Anne Rabbitte and Niall Collins.

I absolutely endorse everything that Deputy Eamon Ryan has just said. That is the perfect system in terms of using all the assets of the State in a co-ordinated manner. I fear, however, that our current system of government will prevent that from happening because the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment will probably object to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. Ultimately, Deputy Eamon Ryan's vision could be achieved without additional major expense if we had a proactive National Transport Authority that thought outside the box. However, if a person has to travel from Belmullet to attend a hospital appointment in Galway where Bianconi managed to get to over 100 years ago, he or she would have to go the night before. That is because he or she will not get a mid-morning appointment. They make someone turn up at 9 a.m. and one cannot get public transport that early. A proper hub-and-spoke system would allow a person using an Expressway route to get into Galway in time for a hospital appointment and return home again.

CIE buses used to deliver newspapers and parcels but they got out of that business under the old management system. As previous speakers have said, management have so much to answer for but we are making the workers pay. I asked the new CEO of Bus Éireann, Mr. Ray Hernan who has been handed a very difficult job to outline the severance package of his predecessor. He said he could not do so because of confidentiality. There is no confidentiality around the assault on workers, however. As we are keeping the heartbeat of this company going, we must address that issue.

In a previous life, the Minister made a name for himself by telling shareholders what questions to ask at annual general meetings, AGMs. May I ask him to answer these questions? What actions did the directors appointed by the Department take when Bus Éireann went from a €400,000 surplus to a €5.4 million loss? They remained mute and did nothing. They actually stood by while three rescue plans were turned down by the Department they represented.

The Minister has a responsibility to the shareholders and employees. He says he cannot get involved and that we have an industrial relations mechanism. I call on the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, to get involved. There should be no need for a strike. The WRC should get involved now and kill this off at the pass, rather than it becoming a case of people being inconvenienced. A hub-and-spoke mechanism connecting public transport to the express routes is the way to go. Bus Éireann had that in place but it has been cherry-picked by the NTA. We do not have confidence in the NTA in rural Ireland. We see how they deal with taxi services which they long finger. The NTA has to prove itself, as does the WRC. Many elements of the State have to prove themselves to provide fair employment and a service that works.

We have heard about red setters and Bianconi. The ultimate red herring is that the Government will not get involved in this debate. It feels it can stick its head in the sand. If, however, there is a public service strike on 20 February - I predict that there will be - on the Minister's head be it.

Yesterday, I received a phone call from an Expressway driver. He also sent an e-mail saying that he works a six-week roster with one weekend off in six. He has a lot of days on which he is away from home for 11 or 12 hours. For two of the six weeks, he starts at 2 a.m. and 4 a.m. He earns an average of €700 per week. Bus Éireann proposes to cut that by removing the shift allowance of €95 and reducing the double-time rate for Sundays from 100% to 20%. The company is also seeking a general reduction of 10% in allowances. The driver said it appears that he will bring home in the region of €500 a week when these cuts are put in place on 20 February. As stated, the man, who is from Clonmel, is an Expressway driver. He will be eligible for income supplement if these cuts are imposed by Bus Éireann. The Minister has a responsibility. I was sitting in my office this evening and I heard him say that the Government is intent on looking after rural Ireland. The buck stops with the Minister. He must ensure that Expressway is preserved and that people in rural Ireland get the transport infrastructure they deserve.

I have been sitting in this Chamber for the past 90 minutes and have listened to many Opposition Members criticising the motion moved by Deputy Troy. This shows that Fianna Fáil is on the right track. We are putting forward the correct policies forward in respect of both urban and rural Ireland. I wholeheartedly support the motion.

We have five and a half minutes left for three Deputies.

I commend Deputy Robert Troy for being so proactive on this issue. Everybody seems to be talking about this matter but very little action has been taken in respect of it. The programme for Government contains a commitment to keep older people independent and active in their community. It states, "We also recognise the value and benefit of rural transport to many communities, in particular for older people vulnerable to social isolation". Older people living in rural areas do not have the same luxury of those living in larger towns and cities. Here in Dublin we are spoilt for choice between taxis, buses, trains and Luas services. The list goes on but, unfortunately, the same is not available to people who live in other parts of the country. Expressway is a lifeline for both urban and rural passengers, including students taking the service from Waterford on a Sunday evening.

My own daughter does it. She travels every Sunday evening to college in Limerick. Whether it is the students travelling into Waterford from Cork, Carlow or Kilkenny, it is imperative that the bus service is there for them. At the weekend, I spoke to many people in rural parts of my constituency whose only lifeline in many cases is Bus Éireann and the Expressway coach service. These people depend on free travel and the connectivity with which buses provide them.

My late father, who has been dead for 21 years, had a saying, "If you are going on the bus, be on it," because he always trained us to be good timekeepers. My worry now is that there will be no bus to get on.

I thank Deputy Robert Troy for bringing the motion to the House. Earlier the Minister said there was a difference between himself and Deputy Troy and that they did not share the same road to a solution. I agree with him. Deputy Troy is standing up for rural Ireland. He is standing up for the staff of Bus Éireann, the towns, the young and the old. He is standing up to create awareness that the Minister's Department is lacking when it comes to taking ownership. He is listening to the concerns of the people in rural Ireland. My colleagues, Councillors Kinane and Ivan Canning, are very concerned about the forthcoming opening of the Gort to Tuam motorway because Gort is going to be bypassed, as is Clarinbridge. They have real concerns about what that will do to their rural communities because that was the lifeline that was bringing people into communities. It was part of the connectivity we needed for tourism in the west.

Regrettably, we now face the deadline of 20 February and people who work on the Expressway service or who have families and businesses that depend on it do not know what the future holds for it. We ask the Minister to provide a clear and definite role of involvement and for leadership. We know he can do it. We ask him now to step up to the mark and support rural Ireland. Given my constituency experience, I believe firmly that all rural towns and villages need serious resuscitation and not to have their oxygen supply taken away. It is in the Minister's hands.

The Minister must gain an appreciation of the concern in rural Ireland about the Bus Éireann crisis. My constituency of County Limerick is predominantly rural and people rely on the public transport service to travel to Limerick city for hospital appointments, their day-to-day business or to work. Equally, they rely on it to get to the key county towns of Abbeyfeale, Newcastlewest, Rathkeale, Kilmallock and Cappamore. If we do not resolve this crisis and avoid the insolvency of the company, the bus service may go. As such, we have to see the Minister as shareholder representative step up to the plate. The public must be reassured. It is incumbent on the Minister to tell the public that this will be sorted out. In the past few years, in particular under Fine Gael and the Labour Party, we saw the closure of post offices, Garda stations, public health clinics and banks, as well as the consolidation of services into the larger towns and cities. If we take away the public transport service on which people rely, we will hugely discommode the people I represent. As such, it is incumbent on the Minister and the Government to sort this out.

In sorting out the problem, the workers cannot be asked to bail the company out. I listened intently to what was said at the Joint Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport last week when the acting CEO of Bus Éireann detailed that the workers accounted for 40% of the cost base of the company. It is not tenable or feasible for the workers to be stripped of more salary. We have a race to the bottom in this country in respect of terms and conditions and rates of pay. It is not sustainable that the workforce be asked by virtue of salary cuts or reductions in allowances or premium overtime to bail out the company. There are many other areas which could be looked at, including insurance costs, route costs and reform of the National Transport Authority. Many areas where there could be savings have been outlined, but the workers must be protected in terms of their salaries and terms and conditions.

I echo the earlier comments of the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Shane Ross, on the counterproductive leaking of information about Bus Éireann's challenges in recent weeks. We must all remind ourselves that more than 2,500 people are employed in the company. They have been subjected to headline after headline and speculation about their careers. The distress is not helping them in any way and neither are the often wild accusations and speculations of some in the media and repeated, unfortunately, by some of the Members of this House. In addition to the employees are the millions of people across the country, in particular in rural Ireland, who rely on Bus Éireann as their public transport operator. They have been subjected to speculation about potential route closures and service changes, a great deal of which is utterly unfounded and irrelevant. For example, there have been media reports about the future of bus services in areas which are not even served by Expressway but instead by Bus Éireann's PSO services. Similar were stories of potential changes to the free travel scheme when there are no such proposals.

I would like to think Members would have an informed debate in the Chamber and, amidst their disagreements, at least clarify factual positions. Before us is a motion proposed by Fianna Fáil, as well as amendments proposed by the Labour Party, the Anti-Austerity Alliance-People Before Profit, Sinn Féin and a counter-motion proposed by the Government. There is much agreement across the proposals. Everyone agrees about the importance of a quality, funded public transport network. We all agree it is necessary to review the funding model for the free travel scheme and, albeit in different words, we agree on the need for the National Transport Authority, NTA, to consider issues affecting rural Ireland when considering commercial bus licence applications. Again in slightly different words, all agree the NTA must have the necessary powers under the Public Transport Regulation Act 2009 to ensure commercial bus services play their part in our overall public transport network.

I agree with Deputy Anne Rabbitte that in the capital city of Dublin we are spoiled for choice. We are spoiled for choice because we have the infrastructure. That infrastructure needs to be shared with the rest of the country. I agree with Deputy Eamon Ryan, who has left the Chamber, about thinking outside the box. As politicians, we sometimes have very narrow minds and we need to respond when people suggest things from outside the box. We must take on board what they are saying and try to do something with it rather than just ignore it and pretend it is not there.

However, there is one significant area of difference. The Opposition motion calls on the Government to ensure no change to Expressway services and that an Act is proposed. It is something I think instinctively appeals to a lot of people in the House this evening. However, it imagines the Government can simply direct a company's board of directors and management to continue to provide a loss-making service. Nobody wants any company to make losses. It is important that every company, public or private, continues to work against losses it may incur. It invites us to believe the Government can wave away the legal duties of the directors and instruct the company to act in any way the Government sees fit. That is not possible. We all know that. The Opposition motion seeks to create a scenario where the Government can support and fund one commercial bus service to the disadvantage of another commercial operator. However, none of that is credible.

The Government is clear that when there is an industrial relations dispute, we must support the industrial relations bodies, including the Labour Court and the Workplace Relations Commission. They are long established and well practised at handling these difficulties and the discussions that must take place between management and employees in Bus Éireann. The need for clear roles is also relevant to the proposed amendments tabled by Labour and the Anti-Austerity Alliance-People Before Profit. Those amendments call on the Government to impose a sectoral employment order in the commercial bus market. However, the existing legislation already allows for a sectoral employment order to be put in place following an application by a trade union or employer in the Labour Court and provides for the making of a recommendation by the court to the relevant Minister. As such, a mechanism is in place that should be used.

The Government is equally clear that it cannot fund one commercial service over all other commercial buses. To be fair, Fianna Fáil seems to recognise that fact in the text of its motion.

We all need to be clear about the real issue behind the current challenges facing Bus Éireann and the options available to resolve them. We heard different views expressed as to what those issues are. We all recognise the importance of Bus Éireann and acknowledge its role across its three services, namely, the PSO, school and Expressway services. The vast majority of journeys, around 90% of all passengers, occur on PSO and school services. The taxpayer funds these services each year - around €190 million was granted last year, split between PSO and school services.

Around 10% of passenger journeys occur on Expressway services. This network route involves the commercial bus sector, a sector subject to regulations by the NTA and one in which other operators also provide services, subject to licence from the NTA. We should not forget the other commercial bus operators, which hail from all four corners of rural Ireland. They are often small, family-owned companies based in rural towns and villages which provide local employment opportunities as well as improving public transport connectivity.

The reform introduced a number of years ago to facilitate commercial bus markets helped to increase passenger numbers and allowed for more people to avail of public transport services, competitive fares and improve service levels. We should not be too quick to dismiss this.

In some ways, the challenges facing Bus Éireann are relatively straightforward. People are choosing other operators over Expressway. Expressway's losses have now become a company-wide problem and action needs to be taken by the company to address that fact. It can only do that in consultation with its employees. I echo the call of the Minister for both parties to begin discussions as soon as possible.

I am afraid that is the difficult truth behind the situation and the company must adjust the losses it is suffering in its commercial service. It is not an issue of underfunding of PSO or school services. Rather, this is a problem faced by Bus Éireann commercial services, and is a problem it must help to resolve. Fianna Fáil's motion recognises that subsidies from the Government could run into legal challenges.

The Government, through institutions such as the Labour Court and the Workplace Relations Commission, can assist in bringing the parties together, but we need them to indicate their willingness to agree. The Government, through the NTA, can ensure rural Ireland's transport connectivity will be maintained in the event of any service configuration. The Government, through its interdepartmental discussions, can examine adequate funding of the free travel scheme. The Government can assure everyone of its commitment to our publicly funded public service networks. This is evidenced this year by an 11% increase in the PSO programme. The Government cannot direct companies to continue to lose money in a commercial environment. The reality is that the Government cannot change the legal responsibilities of directors.

People throughout the country should have proper services. Those of us who live in the capital and larger cities across the country are sometimes blind to the fact that people in rural Ireland are at a significant disadvantage. In my new position, I have frequently travelled on motorways, something I did not do before. I am astounded by the level of motorways across the country. The European Union provided most of the funding for them.

I am very proud to see the work that has been done in the country when I travel on a motorway. They have connected towns and given people the freedom to move from one area to another. Journeys that would have taken five or six hours have been halved. I wish to pay that compliment because it is very important to do so. We are always knocking each other in the House and there is a sense of negativity. It is time to get rid of the negativity and work together as a Chamber rather than as individual groups.

Deputies Shane Cassells, Aindrias Moynihan, Kevin O'Keeffe and Robert Troy are sharing time.

I met a number of Bus Éireann drivers in my constituency office yesterday, who came to speak to me about the plans that are being put forward to decimate the service and which would have an impact on people in our constituency. The Minister referred to Bus Éireann introducing a new plan to help achieve profitability. My fear is that some of the proposals are already being put in place without consensus being reached between unions and management. As we speak, practices that are destructive to passengers are being implemented as management goes head to head with drivers.

A driver I spoke to yesterday operates the crucial service between the airport, Kells, Navan and Ashbourne. He telephoned the company to say he could not work because of a medical issue, but was conscious of his duty of care to the passengers he served who need to access the airport and DCU. He was told not to worry and thanked for calling. The company did not operate two of the services that day. Commuters who wished to travel to the airport and students who needed to travel to DCU were left stranded on the side of the road. Managers decided not to provide a replacement driver to cover the service.

They are the kind of destructive head-to-head games that are already happening. That is why we need to save the company from itself. Passengers are the pawns in all of this. There is a service across the State of which we can be proud. It needs to be valued and supported. The Minister spoke at length about rural Ireland and the need for connectivity to be maintained. He is correct. It is equally important for urban Ireland. We are living in a more urbanised society. The national framework plan will create more urbanisation.

Before Christmas, the Minister addressed the lack of a rail line in my constituency. The way things are going, we will have no bus service. The smarter travel plan was announced ten years ago. I appeal to the Minister to note that did not get enough people out of private cars and onto public transport. We need a smarter policy in that respect and to help the service.

Last December I raised concerns that local people had outlined to me about the No. 40 bus in Ballyvourney. At the time, the Minister assured me that there were no planned changes, yet today, given the dire financial position of Bus Éireann which has been outlined in recent days, concern is rapidly growing that there could be imminent cuts to the service. Staff should not be scapegoated and rural communities cannot be made to suffer.

Apart from the Expressway service, there is no other public transport available to people in Ballyvourney. The No. 40 bus serves a large population west of Cork city all the way to the Atlantic. People cannot do without it. It provides direct access for a large cohort of people to Cork University Hospital, with a stop outside the gate. The No. 51 bus from Cork to Limerick serves two major cities. It is bad enough that there is no motorway between Cork and Limerick, but now there is a threat that the bus service will be cut. Tá sé fíor-thábhachtach go gcoimeadfaí an córas seo i gcomhair bhus Uimh. 40 ag freastal ar mhuintir Bhaile Bhuirne. Níl aon bhus eile nó córas eile ar fáil do mhuintir Bhaile Bhuirne. Mar sin, tá tábhacht breise ag baint leis.

We acknowledge the difficult financial position Bus Éireann is in and action is needed, but the company needs to work with staff. It is also important to stress that older people should not be made to suffer in any way on account of the cuts. Free travel is not free. People who have worked hard over the years have paid into the system and should be able to avail of the service when they retire.

Services are not being subsidised enough, in that only half of the free travel cost is paid for by the Department of Social Production. It is an area which the Minister needs to examine. He cannot be a passenger on this bus. He needs to take an active role and support rural communities and the bus service.

The events of the past few weeks have been a hallmark of the Fine Gael-led Government in the past six years. When an issue in the public eye issues develops into an all-out crisis it wants to avoid intervention at all costs in the deluded notion that the issue will somehow resolve itself.

Tonight, when we look across at the Government benches, we see that the Government had to get a Minister of State from the city to speak on behalf of Fine Gael's rural Deputies. This shows the level of the Government's interest in supporting the rural transport service and, more importantly, the Expressway service. This is the real world and the Minister's hands-off approach to the crisis has only allowed it to worsen and deepen public concern. When the Minister states it is not in the interests of the taxpayer for him to intervene in a dispute involving a semi-State body that is funded partially by the taxpayer and in which the Government is a stakeholder, it raises serious questions about whether he or the Government has a serious interest in it. I have realised the gravity of the situation. Why does it take an Opposition party to table a Private Members' motion on every crisis before the Government will even have a discussion on it? I have no doubt that it would have also been happy to let this one pass by if Fianna Fáil, in particular, Deputy Robert Troy, had not tabled this Private Members' motion.

That the Government is happy to allow cuts to be imposed unilaterally on workers, without round table discussions with unions, can be compared to the hard right-wing attitude in the United Kingdom in the 1980s when Mrs. Margaret Thatcher refused to engage with the coalminers. Social partnership which was introduced by Fianna Fáil and Charles Haughey in the 1980s was a mechanism that included consultation between workers, employers, unions and the Government. Some of those on the Opposition benches may regard "social partnership" as a dirty phrase today, but at least it was a mechanism to engage with all stakeholders when issues such as this arose. In that regard, I am sorry to see that some of the earlier speakers are not present. Furthermore, we have a Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Employment who has made no comment on an issue, even though so many jobs are at stake.

Last Thursday, I was at a well-attended public meeting in Youghal, a town that needs guaranteed connectivity with the cities. The message given was that this was a social as well as a transport service. I agree with my party that a review of the licensing system, in conjunction with the NTA, is necessary. The NTA should ensure wider concerns about rural isolation and whether competition is sustainable on certain routes are included in decisions in granting or refusing bus licences to operators. New entrants to the market have placed great strain on many Bus Éireann services. Strict regulations need to be put in place to ensure services will remain in place and to assess whether competition is viable on certain routes.

I ask the Minister, Deputy Shane Ross, if the acting CEO of Bus Éireann was handpicked by him and, if so, why? Was it because he seemed to be singing from the same hymn book? Last week Mr. Ray Hernan stated at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport, "I have been involved in only one reorganisation before, in my role as CEO and, previously, CFO with Arnotts." He continued, "The essential piece of my plan was, 'you are getting no more money'." The Minister seems to be singing the same hymn.

I thank everyone for his or her contribution. Deputy Kevin O'Keeffe is right: if it was not for Fianna Fáil's Private Members' motion, we would not be discussing the issue. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Shane Ross, has been particularly mute on it. If nothing else, the motion gave an opportunity to those with an interest in public transport to come and make a contribution. Deputy Kevin O'Keeffe is right. It is amazing that no one from the Government parties, with the exception of the Minister and the Minister of State, chose to come and speak about the issue.

The Minister acknowledged the positive contribution which had been made by Seán Lemass. He was a great Taoiseach who set up the industrial relations mechanisms, in which we are not asking the Minister to get involved. We are asking him to become involved before there is an industrial relations dispute and an all-out strike. He said he was willing to talk, that the unions, management and the NTA were willing to talk and that, according to him, the NTA would not be found wanting. Therefore, why not come together to see if an agreement can be ironed out? If not, let us use the mechanisms of the Workplace Relations Commission, but let us come together first. I do not subscribe to what those sitting to my right but who are on the far left said. They want an all-out strike. They want to see a situation where those who rely on public services would be discommoded and the workers have their wages reduced. Paragraph 8.2 of the code of practice for the governance of State bodies requires a Minister to become involved before major changes are envisaged. As major changes to Bus Éireann are envisaged, the Minister is required to become involved. His predecessor did not get involved. He was warned about the financial position and challenges facing Bus Éireann more than 12 months ago but nothing was done. Now we have the calamitous situation where workers' rights have to be cut without looking at other efficiencies that could be achieved.

I beg the Ceann Comhairle's indulgence. The Minister said the NTA would not be found wanting. He also said he had informed and briefed himself on how the NTA did its work. How long does it take it to adjudicate on a licence application? How long does it take it to state a service will be introduced?

The Deputy is well over time.

It takes 18 months. I was working with it for 18 months on an application to provide a particular service between Mullingar and Dublin.

We must conclude.

Is that responding to market demand? I do not think it is. I hope the Minister will start to drive this bus and ensure we can work together. I want to work with him to ensure we will have an integrated and sustainable public transport service that all citizens deserve.

Amendment put.

In accordance with Standing Order 70(2), the division is postponed until the weekly division time on Thursday, 2 February 2017.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.05 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Wednesday, 1 February 2017.
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