Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 8 Feb 2017

Vol. 937 No. 4

Priority Questions

Bus Éireann

Robert Troy

Ceist:

29. Deputy Robert Troy asked the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport the progress being made in resolving the financial problems and industrial relations dispute at Bus Éireann; and the reason it is the case that the Bus Éireann report submitted to his Department in January 2016 on the way to resolve the financial difficulties at the company was rejected by his Department, even though it was essentially the same analysis as was presented in the latest report by a company (details supplied). [6342/17]

Deputy Robert Troy

Since the beginning of the year, the leaking of reports has generated anxiety among staff and passengers who rely on Bus Éireann buses. Then, we realised that the Minister's predecessor was furnished with a cost-saving report more than 12 months ago. During that 12 months no action was taken by the Minister or his predecessor. One full year during which efficiencies could have been introduced has been wasted. What happened during the year and what does the Minister intend to do to ensure the viability and sustainability of Bus Éireann?

Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport

I thank the Deputy for his question. Regarding the industrial relations issues at Bus Éireann, I have been clear in my calls for discussions between the two relevant parties, the management and trade unions, to commence immediately. I do not doubt that those discussions will be difficult.

However, it is obvious that they must occur. As I clarified to the joint Oireachtas committee last week, I am of the view that those discussions should commence on the basis of no preconditions from both sides. If uncertainty exists in that context, then I would urge both parties to clarify their positions.

I can inform the Deputy there was no such report submitted to my Department in January 2016. As I previously informed the Deputy, during the course of 2016, Bus Éireann management worked on developing a business plan to address the loss-making situation in its commercial Expressway business. Several drafts of Bus Éireann's proposals were presented to my Department and NewERA – my Department's financial advisers – and were discussed during 2016.

This type of interaction is entirely in line with the code of practice requirements regarding the preparation of business or strategic plans by a State body. As outlined in the code, the responsibility for the preparation, finalisation and adoption of such plans rests with the board of the relevant body, with an opportunity allowed for departmental consideration of draft proposals.

It is incorrect to state that my Department rejected plans developed by the company. Those discussions between my Department and Bus Éireann did, however, highlight some critical shortcomings that existed in the draft proposals as presented. As the Deputy is aware, these shortcomings relate to the commercial rationale, financing, implementation, sensitivity and risk analysis, and the necessity to consider both state-aid and competition law interactions.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House

The Deputy is also aware that, in September 2016, the board of the company commissioned independent consultants, Grant Thornton, to review the company's proposals as developed during the year and to advise the board. Unsurprisingly, that review by the independent consultants for the board found similar shortcomings with the proposals as those identified previously when the proposals were considered by the Department and NewERA. The review also made recommendations to the board about an approach to finding a way forward. Therefore, arising from the board's consideration of the Grant Thornton advice, the company has now embarked upon developing a new plan to address the company's loss-making situation and restore it to a sustainable future, and the company aims to have this plan in a few weeks.

Deputy Robert Troy

I am shocked that the Minister now claims there was no report because he confirmed there was a report at a meeting of the Oireachtas committee last week. In fact, at this morning's meeting of the committee, I got a sense of hope, particularly in light of the fact that the Minister said he had checked the grammar and spell-checked the report of the RSA. It is Deputy Ross's duty as Minister to hold the board to account. I hope he will bring that level of authority to the board of Bus Éireann and hold it to account and get it to instruct the new CEO to enter negotiations without any preconditions, good, bad or indifferent.

I also hope the Minister will realise that it is not just the pay and conditions of the workers that are targeted to be slashed in the attempt to turn this company around. There has to be monumental structural change within Bus Éireann, of which the Minister is the sole shareholder and on which he has a major influence in terms of what structural changes and efficiencies can be derived.

Deputy Shane Ross

I thank Deputy Troy for his remarks. I think he misunderstood me. I will reread what I said as I do not think he heard it. I stated, "there was no such report submitted to my Department in January 2016". Many proposals were made and many reports were submitted at the time. Many reports were made to Bus Éireann management. There was no such report made to me in 2016. I did have proposals submitted to me for comment and observation but there was no report to me at the time in question. As the Deputy will know, NewERA did examine the situation and report to me. I also consistently had reports from the board.

The idea that I am not holding the board accountable is absurd. The board has been trotting up and down to my office - or the chairman certainly has been doing so. I have been in constant communication with people from Bus Éireann. I have met the new chief executive on at least two occasions already. The board - as would be the case with any such board - is being held to account by me, as the shareholder. Let there be no doubt about that.

Deputy Robert Troy

In his negotiations with the chairman of the board and the CEO, did the Minister ask them to enter negotiations with the unions without any preconditions? If so, what was their reply? What level of discussions has the Minister had? I accept that, in industrial relations terms, he cannot get involved personally. However, he can get involved is in the whole restructuring of Bus Éireann. What information has the new CEO brought to the Minister's attention in terms of how he intends to restructure Bus Éireann? Will there be any loss of rural services? Any proposal that comes from the CEO through the board to restructure Bus Éireann must be ratified by the Minister, as the shareholder. Does the Minister agree with that?

Deputy Shane Ross

Deputy Troy asked me about what he referred to as my "negotiations" with the chair. I do not have negotiations with the chair. The chair will, hopefully, have negotiations with the unions in the time to come. I talked to the chair, I asked him to be accountable for his stewardship and I asked him about his plans. The Deputy asked whether I told him there should be no preconditions. I have told him that publicly. It is an absurd question. I have said quite publicly to both the chairman and the unions to come to the table without preconditions. I do not need a quiet meeting on the side to tell them that. The phrase "Without preconditions" provides the simplest message out there.

Deputy Robert Troy

Then they are ignoring the Minister.

Deputy Shane Ross

Both parties are making themselves available, supposedly without preconditions, yet they are not meeting. It is an absurd situation. I can only say this: I hope and believe that they will come together - I appeal to them to do so - without preconditions because there is no other way out of this dispute.

Bus Éireann

Imelda Munster

Ceist:

30. Deputy Imelda Munster asked the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport if he will intervene in the crisis at Bus Éireann in view of notification from unions of an impending all-out strike from 20 February 2017 and the potentially disastrous effect a strike would have on public transport across the State; if he plans to change his approach of non-involvement in the matter in view of his position as Minister and the consequences that this strike will have in rural and urban parts of the State; his views on whether Government policy has a role to play in the matter and whether he has a role to play as a key stakeholder; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6327/17]

Deputy Imelda Munster

I ask the Minister, in light of notification from unions of an impending all-out strike from 20 February next, if he will intervene in the crisis at Bus Éireann, given the potentially disastrous effect a strike will have on public transport across the State. Is it his intention to change his approach of non-involvement, particularly in light of his position as Minister and the dire consequences the strike will have in rural and urban parts of the State? Does he accept that Government policy has a role to play in the matter and that he, as Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, has a role to play as a key stakeholder?

Deputy Shane Ross

The Deputy is aware of my stated and consistent position in this regard. I am fully aware of the problems faced by Bus Éireann and I am acutely sensitive to the fact 20 February is an important day in the calendar for Bus Éireann and its staff and workforce, to which the Deputy referred. The company must address the financial losses it incurs as a result of its loss-making Expressway services. Those services are commercial and receive no taxpayer funding, and the Deputy is aware of the reasons those services cannot receive taxpayer funding. The issues which must be addressed are internal to the company and are a matter for resolution between it and its employees.

I have been equally clear in my calls for discussions to immediately commence between the two relevant parties, as referred to in my reply to Deputy Troy. I do not doubt that those discussions will be difficult. However, it is obvious they must and will occur. As I clarified to Deputy Munster last week, I am of the view that those discussions should commence on the basis of no preconditions from both sides and, if uncertainty exists, then I would urge both parties to clarify their positions.  Discussions can be facilitated by the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, and/or the Labour Court.

During last week's debates in the Dáil and at the joint Oireachtas committee, I clearly outlined the actions I am taking, such as ensuring adequately funded public transport services, as budgetary resources allow, assuring rural Ireland that the National Transport Authority will ensure continued public transport connectivity, and reviewing, in co-operation with the Minister for Social Protection, how best to ensure a sustainable funding model for the free travel scheme. In regard to this latter point, the Deputy will recall my clear statement to the joint Oireachtas committee last week that this in no way involves reducing the availability of free travel passes for senior citizens. The free travel scheme is an important scheme to which we remain totally committed.

Additional information not provided on the floor of the House

On the wider question of transport policy, a core objective of that policy is to encourage greater use of public transport. I would expect that objective is a shared one across all sides of the House. In that regard, I note the increasing number of people using commercial bus services, as evidenced by the fact approximately 23 million people used such a service in 2015.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Prior to the inflammatory ultimatum sent out by the CEO of Bus Éireann to the workers, I repeatedly called on the Minister to engage with all the stakeholders, to sit around the table and find a resolution to this and he repeatedly refused. I asked the Minister to meet with all the stakeholders - the Department, the NTA, Bus Éireann and the unions - and he repeatedly refused. The letter that went out was deliberate, targeted and provocative. The Minister is asking the workers to accept up to a 30% cut in their average pay and for their current contracts to be changed completely. We all know the workers did not create this crisis. The most annoying and frustrating thing of all is that not once did either the Government or the NTA ever admit the real reason for this crisis. That was bad policy, poor decision making and gross underfunding. The Minister cannot be taken with any degree of seriousness until he publicly admits that was the cause of this crisis. I am asking the Minister, because he knows the chaos that lies ahead, to not play with words. We all know there were preconditions. I read out the letter to the Minister that was sent from the CEO to the workers.

Deputy Shane Ross

I have debated this with Deputy Munster several times. I thoroughly respect the position she is taking. I ask her not to say I am asking the workers in the company to accept 30% cuts. I am asking nothing; I am making no comment on the demands of either side. The Deputy knows that and everybody else knows that. At this stage, I ask only that the unions and the management come together and talk without preconditions and to put me on one side or the other is wrong. I am not going to be drawn into this dispute on either side. The reason has been totally and utterly clear. For someone to come into this House and say I am asking something the management is asking is incorrect because I am not. It is wrong. I am not saying it is wilfully wrong but it is wrong. I am simply asking that they get down and get talking.

Deputy Imelda Munster

To play this out as an industrial relations dispute is morally wrong to say the least. As I said earlier, the Minister was repeatedly asked for engagement of all the stakeholders and he repeatedly refused. I do not know if it has actually dawned on the Minister the chaos that will ensue on 20 February. Workers, commuters, college-goers, tourists and people right across the board, including those with hospital appointments, will be affected. The unions have said they will talk without preconditions. If the contents of the letter that was sent out are not preconditions, I do not know what is. It was an ultimatum where the workers were singularly targeted. There was no admission of bad policy. Until such time as the CEO of Bus Éireann agrees to meet the workers and set aside those inflammatory preconditions, programme or suggestions - whatever the Minister wants to call it - the management of Bus Éireann, the Minister and the Government will have to take direct responsibility for the chaos that ensues. The unions were blue in the face asking the Minister to engage with them even prior to this letter. It is still a game of playing with words. No preconditions my backside. What worker in their right mind would agree to a 30% cut when they did not cause the crisis?

Deputy Shane Ross

I cannot spell it out more clearly. Both sides have used those words. The Deputy is saying she does not believe one but she believes the other. I happen to believe both; I think they both genuinely mean what they say about this. I think this will lead to them talking at some stage. If people, either on the union or management side, have said what they want prior to coming together that is fair enough, but let them come to the table with a clean sheet. Let them come together and say what their position is. It will then be in the public arena and one cannot withdraw what one has said in the public arena. Before they sit down there should be no preconditions in the sense there is nothing to stop them coming to the table. That is all we are looking for. It is very simple. I can castigate either side for making demands in advance because it does not help the industrial relations situation. I will not do that because that is what has happened. Let them get down and talk to the Labour Court or the WRC now and forget about what they said in the past. It does not really matter. Much of this is just positioning.

Rail Services Provision

Robert Troy

Ceist:

31. Deputy Robert Troy asked the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport his views on whether the decision to allow the DART underground railway order to lapse was a mistake that could ultimately waste millions of euro; the progress being made on redesigning a lower-cost solution to the tunnel portion; and if this solution involves removal of the proposed station at Pearse Street. [6343/17]

Deputy Robert Troy

Does the Minister agree that the decision to allow the DART underground railway order to lapse was a mistake that could ultimately cost the taxpayer millions of euro? Will he give an update on the progress being made on redesigning a lower-cost solution to the tunnel portion? Does this solution involve the removal of the proposed station at Pearse Street?

Deputy Shane Ross

Following a review of the business case for the DART underground project and the recommendation of the NTA following that review, the Government decided in September 2015 not to activate the compulsory purchase order powers of the railway order for the project and, instead, to seek a new railway order for a lower-cost revised scheme. The NTA identified that the DART underground project could be redesigned to provide a lower-cost technical solution for the project, while retaining the required rail connectivity. That decision was informed by the fact that the business case for the DART underground project indicated that the tunnel was not economically justified on its own in the absence of the larger DART expansion programme. The DART expansion programme includes the tunnel link plus the extension of DART services to Drogheda, Maynooth and Hazelhatch, and has an overall cost in the region of €4 billion. Due to constraints on funding, not all elements of the DART expansion programme can be progressed during the lifetime of the current capital plan. Funding has been allocated for the extension of the DART to Balbriggan and for work on the redesign of the tunnel. Other elements of the programme will be considered in the context of the review of the capital plan this year. The NTA has commenced work on the redesign of the tunnel in collaboration with Irish Rail and will progress this redesign work in line with available funding. Currently a study to re-examine tunnel size options is nearing completion and the NTA will shortly commence an assessment of the optimum tie-in arrangements between the tunnel and the existing surface tracks on the Kildare line. Other work is also ongoing in respect of tunnel variants. That decision to prepare a lower-cost solution for the project remains valid and the NTA, together with Irish Rail, is committed to developing a more affordable project. The work previously undertaken on the project will have value when the redesigned project proceeds. I am informed by the NTA that all of the tunnel options under consideration at this stage envisage an underground station for the DART underground at or near to the existing Pearse Street station. 

Deputy Robert Troy

We all agree massive challenges face the transport network here in the capital city. The DART underground has huge economic benefits that reach far beyond the greater Dublin area. It will link our southern and western rail lines with the DART and our eastern and northern rail lines and will more than double the capacity on the Maynooth and Kildare route, which will enable more frequent and reliable integrated rail service. It is a very worthwhile project. It must be acknowledged that €44 million has already been expended on securing the original rail order, which has been gone since September 2015.

The Minister said he still considers the need for the station at Pearse Street. Why then has the proposed site for the Pearse Street station been sold to Rail Investments Limited? How will we continue to have the site, which the Minister, in his reply, stated will be necessary? How will that station be located in a site in which the State has sold its interest?

Deputy Shane Ross

That is an operational matter for Iarnród Éireann and I will refer the Deputy's question to it and see what its plans are in that regard.

Deputy Robert Troy

I appreciate the Minister asking me to forward a question to Iarnród Éireann. I could write to the chief executive officer of Iarnród Éireann but he might reply more quickly to the Minister. That is not good enough. I would like to know how a situation could arise where the Minister said that this remains to be part of the overall vision for the DART underground, yet the location and the siting has been sold. Where is the joined-up thinking? How can he dispose of a landholding that he will require in the long term?

The Minister said work on the redesign of the underground by way of a lower cost solution is progressing. When will that work be completed and when will it be at an advanced stage?

Has the Minister made any application to the Juncker fund, the €500 billion fund that is available from Europe for large-scale infrastructural projects, which is available at a reduced interest rate and would be of major benefit to a scheme such as the DART underground?

Deputy Shane Ross

I will try to update the Deputy on what is happening. In September 2015, the National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA, recommended that the tunnel element of the DART expansion programme should not proceed as currently designed but should be redesigned, as recommended, to provide a lower cost technical solution. This project will cost in the order of €4 billion. It has to be designed and delivered in a way that best ensures cost effectiveness for the taxpayer and the State. Proceeding with the redesign of the tunnel element is the appropriate course of action in light of the NTMA's recommendations.

The new programme for Government includes a commitment to invest €3.6 billion across the lifetime of the capital plan, 2016-2022, to enable a number of transport projects to proceed and to fund additional capacity to meet existing and future commuter needs. The capital plan provides for the commencement of a multi-phase DART expansion programme, as recommended under the National Transport Authority's Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area 2016-2034. The DART underground project, as currently designed, will not proceed but will instead be redesigned to provide for a more cost-effective tunnel. Funding has been provided under the capital plan.

Bus Éireann

Mick Barry

Ceist:

32. Deputy Mick Barry asked the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport his views on the unfolding crisis at Bus Éireann and the case for an increased subsidy from his Department. [6356/17]

Deputy Mick Barry

What are the Minister's views on the unfolding crisis at Bus Éireann? Will he comment on the case for his Department allocating an increased subsidy to the company?

Deputy Shane Ross

I thank the Deputy for his question. As he will note from our encounters here and at the Oireachtas joint committee, the responses I have been making on this matter have been consistent and fairly clear. The company is losing money and those losses must be addressed. The losses arise primarily as a result of the poor performance of its commercial Expressway services, services which do not, and indeed cannot, receive any taxpayer funding.

I have been equally clear in my calls for discussions to commence immediately between the two relevant parties, as I have done today in my answers to two other questions on the same subject. As I clarified to the Deputy last week, those discussions should commence on the basis of no preconditions from both sides, and if uncertainty exists as regards that basis, I urge both parties to clarify their positions.

On the issue of the subsidisation of public transport, the Deputy is aware that subsidies are only provided for socially necessary but financially unviable services and are not available for commercial services. I am committed towards increasing the level of taxpayer funding for public transport services as budgetary resources allow. That commitment is evidenced by the 11% increase secured in budget 2017, and I will be seeking to increase taxpayer funding of public transport services further in budget 2018.

Bus Éireann operates approximately 230 of these socially necessary but financially unviable services. These services operate in every county in the State, and last year around 32 million people travelled on such a service. I also note that in 2016, Bus Éireann received €40.8 million for the provision of those services, which represented a 21% increase when compared with 2015.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House

However, any increase in funding provided must demonstrate to the taxpayer the value for money achieved and, in that regard, the National Transport Authority has an important role to play in its monitoring and enforcement of service levels and quality under the public services contracts entered into with operators.

Deputy Mick Barry

The Minister is the sole shareholder in Bus Éireann. We are 12 days away from a national bus strike which could spill over into a national public transport strike. The Minister said the same sterile mantras 12 days ago that he has repeated in the Dáil today. Will he be saying them in 12 days' time when a national bus strike will kick off? We need more than that.

I understand there is a village in his constituency called "Stepaside". It strikes me as apt because he seems to want to step aside from this entire controversy. He seems to be willing to allow Mr. Hernan to provoke a strike by demanding cuts of up to €8,000 for some workers. He seems to be willing, for the sake of €9 million, to put at risk the future of a company whose workers pay €59 million to the Exchequer in payroll taxes every year. Is he prepared to put aside the sterile mantras and the play-acting here in the House and act to deal with this crisis?

Deputy Shane Ross

To address the Deputy's supplementary on the subvention first, he will be aware that the subsidy in past two years increased and it is my intention to increase it even further in the coming years. I have no wish to see any loss of services to people throughout the country who need that subvention and connectivity. That particularly applies to rural Ireland.

I do not see what Stepaside has to do with this particular argument but somehow the Deputy has managed to include it in a way which I still cannot follow, but well done, it is to his credit. "No" is the answer to his question. I will not be intervening in an industrial relations dispute. How often does he have to ask me that question for me to give him the same answer? I am not going to be drawn in. I am not going to be producing the State's chequebook under any circumstances. That is not my role as a shareholder. It would be the worst move I could make.

Deputy Mick Barry

Bus Éireann now runs its Cork-Dublin services along the motorway. The towns that lost out between Portlaoise and Cashel are now served by private operators who are paid €440,000 a year for that work. Bus Éireann services from Dublin to Galway and Dublin to Waterford do not travel only on the motorway. If they travelled exclusively on it, it would cost the State between €2 million and €2.5 million every year to have the towns that would lose out serviced by private operators. Is the Minister prepared to recognise fully the social value of the work done by Bus Éireann and support payment in full for services performed by Bus Éireann in towns such as these?

Deputy Shane Ross

Deputy Barry accused me of repeating the same mantra. He is more repetitive than I am. It is quite extraordinary and that is quite an achievement. He has managed to bring Stepaside into it and has repeated the mantra as frequently as I have. That is pretty good going.

The answer to his question is the same as the one I have given him previously. Intervention is a matter for the National Transport Authority on detailed routes. It is not a matter for me. I am not going to intervene in any way, direct or indirect, in this dispute, which could draw me into a situation whereby I would be implicated in paying more money, producing more money or actually getting involved. The nitty-gritty of this is up to two parties and it will remain with two parties. It does not matter how often the Deputy asks me the same question in this House, he will get the same answer.

Bus Éireann

Clare Daly

Ceist:

33. Deputy Clare Daly asked the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport his plans to ensure that preconditions regarding reductions in staff costs are removed in Bus Éireann; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6197/17]

Deputy Clare Daly

I hate to say it but this question is also on the issue of Bus Éireann. It is about the issue of preconditions in negotiations. The Minister said in his response to Deputy Barry that he was opposed to any preconditions in the current crisis at Bus Éireann. Given that is his stated objective, what does he believe he can do to facilitate the removal of such preconditions, as currently it is the workers who are substantially paying a heavy price for the crisis?

Deputy Shane Ross

I certainly cannot say the same thing to Deputy Clare Daly as I said to Deputy Barry. At least she takes a different angle in respect of the matter. I will not do what she would like me to do. I understand that people maintain that one person's precondition is another person's statement prior to getting down to talks. What I will do is ask both parties to be realistic and request that they not play with words or interpret one or the other's statements as preconditions. They know and I know that they will have to talk without preconditions sooner or later. To ensure that they are under no illusions, I say to them this: they are on their own on this one. They must behave like grown-ups, get in there and settle it. The machinery of the State is available. I will make it available to them 24-7 to resolve this problem, which, as many people eloquently outlined just recently, will cause untold damage, harm and hardship to many innocent travellers, innocent people in rural communities, the workforce and others. I will make that machinery available but I will not be proactive in policy areas in this situation.

Deputy Clare Daly

The reality is that workers at Bus Éireann provide 40,000 services per week. They have had to endure essentially a pay freeze since 2009, when they were actually promised a pay increase of 6%. I note the Minister's statement that nobody should go into these talks with preconditions, but the reality is that Bus Éireann management has said that much of the savings it seeks will come off the back of the workforce. I wish to talk to the Minister about this workforce through the eyes of one of my constituents. He says that he is paid €624 per week, gross, for a 39-hour week. However, anybody employed after him is only paid €539. Some working days are in excess of 12 hours, rarely all of it paid time. There can be unpaid breaks of up to two hours and 45 minutes during the day. These could be well away from the home depot. They work about nine Sundays in every 14 shifts, which is a concern in terms of rest times, bringing back buses and so on. To unilaterally impose cuts on what are already hard-pressed working conditions is unacceptable. While I note the Minister's statement that good sense should prevail, is there anything he thinks he could do to facilitate some type of forum? He says the industrial machinery is there but it is not adequate to get over this notion of preconditions, which is seriously unhelpful.

Deputy Shane Ross

Perhaps I can be helpful in some ways. I accept that, in policy terms, the Government has a role as the shareholder. I have said this before and I will say it again if it is at all helpful: I will not, prior to this dispute being settled, assemble a forum because it would only become dragged into the dispute. However, I make it quite clear that once the industrial relations dispute is over, I am very happy to meet all the stakeholders to discuss what they maintain are the policy issues, which are undoubtedly felt deeply, with which many people have sympathy and to which the stakeholders allude so often. I will not do so during the dispute, but afterwards.

Deputy Clare Daly

I think that will be absolutely necessary. The backdrop to the current crisis and the cuts that are set to be imposed on workers is, in part, a result of the reduction in the public service obligation, PSO, subvention, one of the key reasons Bus Éireann has run into problems. While the Minister has said openly that he does not believe either party should be involved in going into this immediate crisis with preconditions - I think all of us would echo that - they need to get together and try to sort it out. In the longer term, we absolutely need a forum to provide a platform that will ensure some sort of long-term vision and plan for all our public transport which can be put in place without the constant threat to the wages and conditions of bus workers, who are pretty much hard up against it. They do not live luxurious lifestyles or anything like that, and the prospect for them and their families of this crisis is not helpful. I think the longer-term facilitation would be welcome, but in the meantime the Minister could and should do what he can in the face of the immediate crisis.

Deputy Shane Ross

Let me make this clear. It probably would be helpful. I am not sure of the merits of it but I am prepared to give it a try. I am certainly not, as some people would portray me, in any way opposed to meeting the unions. I am very happy to meet them but not in the midst of an industrial dispute for reasons to which I have already alluded. Let me make it clear to them again that they should come along, we should meet, they should go to the WRC or the Labour Court tomorrow, meet the management and settle their problems. I will meet them the day after and will get all the stakeholders together if they so wish and we will discuss those other issues which are not pertinent to the industrial dispute. If that helps, that is fine. I will be interested in their response.