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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 21 Mar 2017

Vol. 943 No. 1

Mother and Baby Homes: Motion [Private Members]

Tá mé ag roinnt leis an Teachta Ó Snodaigh agus an Teachta Funchion.

Ceart go leor.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann:

- acknowledges that the discovery of bodies at the Tuam Mother and Baby Home has shocked the people of Ireland and brought considerable sadness and anger to Dáil Éireann;

- agrees that there are serious questions in relation to other mother and baby homes, particularly in the treatment, records and testimonies of survivors;

- recognises that since the formation of the State, mother and baby homes, industrial schools, county homes, Magdalene laundries and numerous other bodies and institutions were part of a systematic regime that resulted in the abuse and degradation of vulnerable women and their children and the State was complacent in allowing this to happen; and

- further recognises that, despite the high number of people who passed through homes and institutions and through the hands of various other bodies, the State has to date failed to initiate a meaningful process that would help to obtain the truth for survivors, nor has it provided a suitable forum that would allow the full story of these institutions and the system that underpinned them to be made public;

agrees that:

- a truth commission, involving international experts, should be established, that would be based on the principals of best practice from the truth processes in Chile, South Africa, Canada and Australia and would be developed in consultation with both victims and survivors groups;

- the purpose of a truth commission is to establish the truth of these institutions, to give the survivors the option to tell their testimony in a non-confrontational, non-adversarial manner and in either public or private, whichever they are at ease with; and

- its purpose is part of a wider process to identify the persons and institutions responsible for the systematic mistreatment and abuse of women and children within

these care homes and the system as a whole but is not a substitute for the justice system or future criminal proceedings should they be deemed necessary anywhere on the island of Ireland; and

further agrees that the truth commission shall:

- operate on a modular basis in order to ensure that older survivors are among the first to be heard;

- provide for public or private hearings, at the discretion of survivors, at suitable locations throughout the 32 counties where testimonies can be made;

- involve an advisory committee, including victims representatives;

- allow for testimonies from all survivors of care homes and their next of kin, without bias;

- ensure unfettered access to all information and documentation for all survivors, victims and next of kin of residential care homes, including to their information and

archival documentation;

- ensure hearings will include all Protestant mother and baby homes such as Bethany and Westbank mother and baby homes and all institutions, even if they are not included in the Government’s prescribed list;

- preserve the documentation at the Magdalene laundry site in Donnybrook, which will be made available to survivors;

- ensure representatives of the organisations responsible appear to provide testimony and answer questions in public;

- provide, where necessary, legal representation for survivors, with costs being covered by the State;

- as a matter of urgency, ensure that all mother and baby homes and county home sites are subject to an injunction preventing structural changes to or interference with land where exhumations may be necessary until the final report of the truth commission is published;

- allow for the prevention of any interference with relevant sites and all ongoing work on these sites shall cease immediately to facilitate a thorough forensic inspection;

- examine the circumstances of the women and children affected from a constitutional and human rights perspective, including the circumstances of exit for women and children, as well as consider related matters such as the forced labour taken from women, illegal adoptions, vaccine trials and any other such matter that the

commission sees as appropriate, taking the report of the interdepartmental group on mother and baby homes into account;

- consider the manner in which women or children were placed in these institutions, the role the State had in placing them within these institutions and the responsibility it bears for the treatment and welfare of children more generally within these institutions;

- have the power to compel witnesses to come before a truth commission;

- publish a series of interim reports to Dáil Éireann, on a bi-monthly basis, on the progress of the truth commission and its recommendations regarding redress,

identity and access to personal documents, responsibility of institutions, memorialisation, current welfare of survivors, access to courts and the Statute of

Limitations and all other information it considers relevant; and

- ensure that the recommendations of the interim and final reports will be expedited as quickly as possible.

I acknowledge the many survivors and their supporters in the Visitors Gallery and thank them for their attendance.

Oscar Wilde once said the truth was rarely pure and never simple. It has been proved that it is not simple to find the truth on this issue. The intention of the motion before the House is to establish the truth and a process to do this - the truth that has long evaded survivors, been covered up and suppressed and still is to this day; the truth the victims and survivors of abuse by a number of institutions in the State deserve to have. The recent revelations at the Tuam Mother and Baby Home have only confirmed some of our deepest fears. The finding of human remains in what appeared to be mass graves came as a shock, but, unfortunately, in many ways, not a surprise. They have been followed by revelations of inconsistencies in records at Sean Ross Abbey, stories of malnutrition at Bessborough and concerns about the possibility that there are unmarked graves at any number of other locations around the country.

People are angry and believe a severe injustice is certainly being done to those who were subjected to some brutal treatment over many decades, whether in mother and baby homes, county homes or Magdalen laundries. I should add that this did not happen just 60 or 70 years ago; it stretches back throughout the history of the State. These institutions were open up until the 1990s. It is not historical; there are all categories of women and children who are still with us. People are right to be angry and I am sure many representatives elected to this House have heard in the past few weeks both about the anger and sorrow felt by the wider public but particularly by those who were in the institutions. From my perspective which I think is shared by many of those involved, the State has only scratched the surface in the form of a commission of investigation into mother and baby homes which was announced two years ago last month. I do not diminish entirely some of the work the commission has done to date. I believe, however, that ultimately it was hamstrung from the very beginning. We said at the time and it has become increasingly apparent that it is not fit for purpose in its current form. It was set up in the midst of widespread criticism that its terms of reference and the model to be used were utterly inadequate. People who suffered under the system - it was a system, a regime - but not in places on the list of prescribed mother and baby homes were excluded. Survivor groups have also criticised the behind-closed-doors hearings because they believe there is a lack of transparency.

There has also been a failure to recognise that, although the experiences of those who were in mother and baby homes, the Magdalen laundries and other institutions were varied and different, the issues are intrinsically linked. Many children who had their childhood snapped from them in mother and baby homes went on to have further engagement with both laundries and industrial schools, as did their mothers. The State and consecutive Governments continued with their departmentalised, atomised approach which was fragmented and illogical, as the crossover between the homes and institutions is enormous. I emphasise again that it was a regime underpinned by an appalling attitude towards women, particularly unmarried women and their children, which manifested itself across the institutions of the State. That point has been neglected in the contributions of Governments during the years. That is why we propose a radical new approach. We are proposing the establishment of a truth commission. It would draw on the best principles of international practice as seen in South Africa, Chile, Australia and Canada and adopt the best examples of that process here.

Tá an cur chuige seo ag iarraidh aitheantas a thabhairt don idirdheighilt, agus don chodarsnacht, atá ann idir na gnéithe difriúla den chóras agus ag iarraidh rudaí a chur i gceart ó thaobh na héagóra a rinneadh ar go leor de na daoine seo agus solas a chur ar an gcóras ina iomlán. This model would ensure the voices of all survivors would be heard. Too many have been excluded. They would be heard in a way that would give them dignity and assure them that they could trust in the process. This is about transitional and transformative justice. I made a point about people being excluded. The State is involved in a court case in the High Court in which women who were in an industrial school but who were forced to provide labour for the Magdalen laundries were not included in the redress scheme, or at least the State is contesting that basis. There might have been exploited children in one place, but because of this, it is not adequate for the redress board. It is that separation and exclusion we need to resolve.

I am anxious that survivor groups be consulted and a part of this process. I thank the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Katherine Zappone, for attending our vigil which was held just before this debate. However, it is my understanding the Taoiseach has not during the term of office of this or the last Government met groups of representatives of mother and baby homes. If that is the case, it must change. I read the amendments I received around 2 p.m., with dismay, although perhaps not shock. What I received were amendments that were lacking in thought and substance but also, to an extent, compassion. The suggestion from the Government, Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party was that I delete my motion, practically in its entirety. What was submitted was insulting to those who sit here and further afield watching the debate, regardless of my anger. The Government's amendment is essentially a pat on the back for what it has done to date. What has been done to date in the setting up of a commission of investigation is wholly inadequate and falls far short of what is required in this instance. Fianna Fáil's amendment would remove the right of access to records for victims and survivors. This is a move that makes me wonder how much they have listened to the specific point about access to survivors' own testimonies, in particular. I have a quote from a survivor who has been through the process and presented to the commission: "I asked for my transcripts which detailed my full case submission, but these transcripts are being refused." If a truth commission was set up and survivors were given access to the transcripts, they would be able to give a copy to the new commission which would save time and avoid the need for them to relive the trauma.

I think that is a reasonable point. If there is one thing survivors want, it is the right to their own identity, testimony and words, but that is seemingly not on Fianna Fáil's list of priorities. All that is contained in the amendment is a provision to establish a body to document survivors' stories. To a large extent, this is already being done by volunteers with Justice for Magdalenes. They cannot be commended enough for the great work they are doing in the absence of State support.

The Labour Party's amendment was more conservative and elusive than the Minister's, which is quite disappointing. My party's motion is a genuine attempt to right the wrongs of the past and give a voice to those whose words have fallen on deaf ears for far too long. Members of this House should not be responsible for stifling the voices of these people. They should not confirm the already heightened suspicions of the general public that neither the Government nor the party holding it up have any credibility when it comes to dealing with this issue.

A significant proposal contained in the motion is the requirement for an injunction to prevent any interference in any of the sites at mother and baby homes and county homes where there is any possibility that there are unmarked graves or where there is any requirement for investigations or exhumations. All ongoing work at those locations should cease immediately in order to facilitate thorough forensic inspection. This is a key point of our motion that I wish to emphasise to all those who tabled amendments. Given that this proposal is not included in the other amendments, I ask those Deputies to withdraw their amendments.

We feel that the Sinn Féin motion is a progressive proposal which attempts to prevent a recurrence of many of the mistakes that have been made, such as the ones that happened in Tuam regarding the previous commission of investigation. I had hoped that this suggestion would be easily supported by all. It treats all these sites with the utmost respect and in some respects it errs on the side of caution due to the sensitivity of potential future investigations.

The key point is that the process we are proposing is about tying all the different strands of the system together. It will thus shine a light on all aspects of that terrible episode in our history which is to the State's shame. It is also about ensuring that the experience of survivors in engaging with the State and its processes is accessible. They should feel comfortable with it and be able to engage with it on their own terms as well as trusting it. That has not been the case with the commission of investigation so far.

I wish to commend my colleague, Deputy Ó Laoghaire, on tabling this motion and sharing his time. Sinn Féin is proposing that in light of the commission of investigation being deemed insufficient to deal with crucial issues in their entirety, that a truth commission be set up which would complement the work of the investigation. A truth commission would ensure that hearings included all mother and baby homes, such as Bethany and Westbank, as well as all institutions, even if they are not included in the Government's prescribed list.

We know that the commission of investigation's terms of reference excluded many institutions and settings, including county homes and the Magdalen laundries. Neither is there any specific inclusion of children who were illegally adopted or illegally fostered. Our proposal is that such a commission would have a broad remit and that survivors in particular would have the ability to contribute publicly or privately in a manner of their choosing. Such a commission could hold individuals and institutions to account, apportion responsibility for mistreatment and neglect and make recommendations on redress.

This Private Members' motion arose in response to the inadequate approach on the part of the State to all these interrelated issues. So many questions need to be answered. If genuine healing of survivors is to take place, then all those affected must be given an opportunity to have their voices heard if they so wish. As matters stand, this will not be possible under the existing terms of reference of the commission of investigation. We had a debate recently on the Grace commission and we were all shocked and horrified about things that went on. If we are genuine about redressing those matters and creating justice for people we must listen to the survivors who have come out of that system. If that is not happening, then we need to put a system in place so that it can occur.

Some of these institutions existed until the 1990s and the effects of that can still be felt today. As was said during the debate on Grace, let us not be hypocritical in seeking to place this kind of abuse of women and children solely in a historical context. We cannot pretend that children being failed by the State is an unfamiliar idea in society today. Tragically, discriminatory treatment of women and children remains hugely prevalent and is still very much alive in our communities. Children continue to be failed terribly by the State. In the absence of a proper care system for children, the mistakes of the past are being repeated.

We need only examine recent figures from the HSE and Tusla as a snapshot of our society's shameful treatment of children. Recent reports show that Tusla received 56,000 reports of child abuse in a recent three-year period. Unfortunately, given those statistics, I do not think we have learned anything from our history. The most recent report, published at the end of April 2015, indicated that there were 6,420 children in care, 93% of whom were placed in foster care. That is a shameful travesty but what is even more shameful is that we do not have a care system fit to provide the support desperately needed for these children. As we discuss the horrific abuses of the past, these figures represent today's reality. Yet what are we doing to safeguard children at risk? How much support do we give organisations such as the ISPCC which step in at weekends when the care system is not working due to cutbacks?

While we are calling for a truth commission, I urge everyone to be cognisant of the issues right under our noses. We must learn from the tragedies of the past and vow to do everything we can to create a care system for children that will safeguard those in need. If this State does not wants to face the reality of a truth commission or another commission of investigation in ten or 20 years' time, we need to take heed now and make the safety of children at risk a priority. The survivor groups here today seek justice, clarity and recognition for what occurred and what they had to endure. It is only right that the State should enable that to happen after all they have been through. They are strong, resilient people who deserve the same respect and treatment offered to any other citizen. I therefore urge all Deputies to please support this motion so that we can begin that process of justice.

I wish to speak on the motion because, like many other Deputies, I have heard of the horrors that our society brought upon women and children in those institutions for many years. It was not just in the institutions because children were also sold, bartered and transported abroad on false documentation by the institutions of this State and neighbouring states. That happened because there was a moralistic attitude towards women. The most scandalous part is that for many years our society had this moralistic attitude. However, the hypocrites who gave that moral lesson to us all were the very ones who were bartering children, starving them and refusing them medical aid. In fact, they treated people as slaves.

Thanks to the courage of those in the Visitors Gallery and others around the world who have come together to tell their stories, we are starting to listen for once. It is not good enough to just listen, however, because we must also learn from the mistakes of our past. The only way we can do that is if we establish the truth by listening to the stories of those on whom this society inflicted the horrors of these institutions. It is not just the institutions we have heard of in the media lately, but also other institutions whose secrets are still hidden from those who pass their doors every day. I know of one in Castlepollard where a memorial was promised to indicate some of the horrors that went on there. To date, however, that memorial has not been erected and, as a result, there is no sign to indicate what happened.

Each one of us has heard stories from individual survivors of other institutions. Like others, I have encouraged those survivors to let the public know, thus relieving themselves of the hurt if at all possible. Some of them are not up to that task, however. They do not want to broadcast to the world what happened to them because some of them are still ashamed for no reason. It was no fault of their own.

That is the fear that was wrought on them, day in and day out, in some of these institutions. There is a woman with whom I deal regularly who was sent to a special school for girls. She was brutalised day in and day out from the age of nine years until she left the school in Blackrock in this city at the age of 18. She can barely function in society today because of the horrors wrought on her. That same story has been replicated by others with whom I have dealt in the past and with whom I still deal to this day. They are the ones whose voices need to be heard. They also want society to listen to them and help them on the rest of their journey through life because many of them have been left with legacy issues, including health, mental health and education issues, which have not been addressed. The first part of addressing it is for society as a whole to admit to its failings and the torture it put these women and children through. Their families on the outside were also often left distressed. Those who are guilty of engaging in these barbaric practices must then suffer some consequences. Whether it should be just ignominy or more is not for me to say, but the victims and survivors need to be heard. Their voices need to be broadcast to the world and future generations in order that we will not repeat the mistakes or actions of the past, in particular towards women and children. The hypocrites who ran these institutions claimed to be Christian. The actions about which we have heard in Tuam, in particular, were not Christian. Some of those who claimed to be our moral masters are now, thankfully, being exposed for the hypocrites that they were.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after “Dáil Éireann” and substitute the following:

recognises that the Government established a statutory Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes and Certain Related Matters in February 2015, to provide a thorough objective account of what happened to vulnerable women and children in these homes during the period 1922 to 1998;

notes that the commission was established following a motion passed by Dáil Éireann on 28th January 2015 to approve the draft Government order for the establishment of the commission and its terms of reference;

acknowledges:

- the important and person-centred work to date of the independent commission;

- the considerable public disquiet and demand for a thorough and holistic understanding of events, experiences and responsibilities following the confirmation, by the commission, of the discovery of human remains on the site of the Tuam Mother and Baby Home; and

- the plight of Irish women and children who were in institutions in this country in the last century, equally affirms their resilience and agency as survivors and stands in solidarity with all former residents, their loved ones and campaigners;

agrees that the commission must be given the opportunity to complete its sensitive and person-centred investigations in the public interest to establish the facts of what happened in and around these homes and to issue its report in accordance with the legal framework under which it was established;

further notes the co-ordinated approach by Government Departments and agencies to respond to the discovery of human remains in Tuam and to engage with the local community and other parties with family connections in a sensitive and inclusive manner, recognising the dignity and equality to which all stakeholders are entitled;

further recognises that:

- the independent commission has the scope and power to examine a broad range of public concerns in relation to these institutions, to make a determination on their relevance to the central issues in question, and to make any recommendations to the Government which the commission deems appropriate;

- the commission’s terms of reference provide for a confidential committee forum to facilitate former residents of these Homes which may wish to provide accounts of their experience and to assist the commission to ground its work in the reality of the experience of mothers and children;

- a commission of investigation’s legal framework allows it to hold hearings in public where this would be in the interests of the investigation and fair procedures;

- major investigations have already been conducted into historical child abuse by the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse which had a wide remit to inquire into the abuse of children in any place where children were cared for other than as members of their families; and

- the report of the interdepartmental committee into Magdalen laundries established the facts of State involvement with the laundries under the supervision of an independent chairperson;

further agrees that the three reports of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes and Certain Related Matters which are due for completion by February 2018, namely, the social history report, the confidential committee report and the investigative report, are critically important in coming to terms with how Irish society responded to vulnerable single women and their children at a time when they most needed our support and assistance; and

welcomes the intention of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs to:

- examine the potential for a gender-sensitive transitional justice approach, to facilitate former residents of institutions who may wish to provide accounts of their

experiences in public or in private, with a view to formally acknowledging and validating their experiences, and supporting reconciliation for former residents and

the public at large with the events of the past by enhancing public awareness and understanding of a range of past abuses and human rights failures;

- explore the potential for the application of a range of transitional justice mechanisms that would acknowledge and preserve the accounts of the past that have emerged in Tuam and elsewhere, honouring the accounts of victims by preserving memory, undoing stigma and honouring the lives of those who were residents of such homes, thereby guaranteeing non-repetition and affirming the dignity and equality values of the Constitution of Ireland;

- explore, in the context of these transitional justice measures, the scope for a truth commission which would examine broad societal issues of collective responsibility in this area and which would complement but be distinct from the work of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes and Certain Relate Matters;

- carry out a scoping exercise to consider the calls for an extension to the terms of reference of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes and Certain Related Matters; and

- expedite the publication of the second interim report of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes and Certain Related Matters.

I thank the Ceann Comhairle, Deputies, survivors, families, supporters and friends who are here. We cannot discuss truth and finding it without acknowledging the role of the late Mr. Martin McGuinness in the recent history of the country. As a champion of reconciliation, he was an example of how we can and should confront dark, uncomfortable and difficult chapters of our history. As a proud son of the Bogside, he has left a legacy of peace which will benefit many generations on this island. He worked tirelessly to bring about reconciliation and build bridges which, in the not too distant past, none of us could have imagined. I extend my deep sympathy to his family, his many friends across all political divides and, of course, his party colleagues. I always felt privileged to receive his empowering embrace each time I met him. With his example in our thoughts, let us discuss the difficult issues before us.

I welcome the opportunity to deal further with the issue of mother and baby homes. It is less than a month since the commission of investigation confirmed the discovery of the remains of babies and children on the site in Tuam. Together, we have been coming to terms with the news, as a community, as a people and as a nation. What has been found in the County Galway town has brought into the open a broader tapestry of harm experienced by women and children across the island for decades. Let me stress that it is important that we do not state or act in any way which would undermine the ongoing work of the commission of investigation. This House approved its establishment and we must let it get on with its work. There should be no confusion about its role and no duplication of its important work.

Deputies will be aware that, as a life-long campaigner, a feminist and an Independent Minister, I have highlighted the need to look beyond the important legal questions surrounding mother and baby homes. We must look to have a more holistic approach to grasp the truth of what happened in our country. We must do justice to the past, while, at the same time, ensuring processes are in place to ensure such practices will never re-emerge in the future. As a people, we have an obligation to remember, to tell the history that was buried in the ground and to say simply and absolutely "never again". The best way to proceed is through consensus. It is important that our future actions acknowledge the fact that, despite our political differences, we all stand united on the fundamental commitment to ensure the equality and dignity of all. The counter motion before the House commits to truth recovery. Of course, this is not the domain of any single political party but is owned by all. Human dignity is at the very heart of the Constitution and equally reflected in the human rights treaties we have signed and ratified. Unfortunately, we have not lived up to these values and there is much work ahead to redeem and give meaning to them.

That brings me to the question of how best we can do this. Calls for the establishment of a truth commission are in line with and echo the approach I outlined to the House as one possible approach just two weeks ago. However, I have significant concerns that the motion put forward seems to ignore almost entirely the work the mother and baby homes commission of investigation was established two years ago to do. It also takes a narrow view of the complex truth and reconciliation demands which follow the violation of human rights. Before deciding on any future course of action, it is important to restate our continued support for the existing commission which must be allowed to continue its work. To that end, I remind Deputies of the considerable breath and scope of its terms of reference. They include the right to seek an extension of its terms of reference, its work of listening to victims and survivors in a safe and supported context, as well as the scale of its fact-finding work.

When the commission was set up, this House approved the proposal that it have both a confidential committee, to which former residents could tell their story, and a social history module which would help us to understand the context and reality of the times. Both elements will be important in deepening our understanding of what happened and what were the lived experiences of mothers and their children. It is open to the commission to hold hearings in public, if it so decides. The confidential committee was designed for those who wanted to tell their experiences in private, away from the public gaze, but it is worthwhile pointing out that the commission could conduct some of its business in public, if it decides that it is in the public interest to do so. Any such decision would, of course, be entirely for the commission to make.

The commission is two years into a three-year programme of work. To take actions now which would double up, devalue or undermine these important tasks would be ill-conceived and wrong. Having said that, an holistic approach does allow space for a complementary body of work, a wider truth recovery process. In the short few weeks since the commission's update on events in Tuam, I have begun a process of consultation on how this work could proceed. I have met academics here and in Boston; historians, including Catherine Corless; investigative journalists and recognised experts in the area of transitional justice. That dialogue is continuing. Together, we have been looking at the challenge ahead and how we can learn from similar exercises in other jurisdictions. Truth recovery and acknowledgement of harm at individual, institutional and national level require patience. It is important that we commit to processes of substance, integrity and expertise. The counter motion reflects these requirements.

The discussions I have had with experts in this field and survivors, including some of those who attended the vigil this evening, have raised important points and questions. I would like to share some of these reflections with colleagues. It is considered that for truth recovery to succeed, it must not be a one-size-fits-all truth commission. There can be many approaches to achieve our desired goal. Existing mechanisms, investigations and reports can form part of a broader process. It also allows for the maximising of resources and expertise. It can have different elements, providing for access to and the compilation of archives, public installations, victim and survivor-led dialogue and testimonies which can be just as powerful as commissions, inquiries and investigations.

We must also learn from those reconciliation and truth exercises which have failed and in particular those in which the harms being addressed were gendered harms. Our commitment must be to do better than that. To put it plainly, for survivors and for future generations, we cannot afford to get this wrong. Any process which is embarked upon must fulfil a number of criteria, the most important being the support and empowerment of victims and survivors. Truth recovery must also have the ability to hear the totality of the story - the structural oppression of poverty, the prevailing moral norms and the devaluing of some children's lives compared with others.

If we are to confront and deal with our history in an open and honest way, then these are the elements which must be included. My discussions have also put a spotlight on a number of important issues which must be addressed. The difficulty which survivors, their representatives and historians in this area have in accessing records is disconcerting. I am mindful too that many survivors and the loved ones of those who have passed are elderly and want answers. The questions and issues before us are complex and will need proper consideration. There cannot be a rush to action.

To get this wrong now not only runs the risk of undermining work which has already been carried out. It could jeopardise our shared desire to reach the truth - the whole truth. I look forward to this evening's contributions. I have already listened carefully to the first three. As someone who spoke in this House about the need for a process of truth, transitional justice and a learning to protect future generations, I welcome this further conversation. We have much to atone for as a society. We must do so collectively with commitment and generosity of spirit and in a genuine desire for reconciliation not only with those whom we have harmed but with ourselves. Truth redeems us all and allows for the space to reclaim the dignity we value so highly. In his poem "Clearances", writing of his mother, Seamus Heaney speaks of "a soul ramifying and forever Silent, beyond silence listened for". As we move into the future, we are compelled to listen to the silence and to open up our hearts and minds to the pain that will undoubtedly follow. This amendment sketches some of the key principles and elements of such a future path.

I am sharing my time with Deputies Mary Butler, Kevin O'Keeffe and Fiona O'Loughlin. I thank Deputy Ó Laoghaire for moving the motion. It is a conversation we need to have. What has been put before us has us back in the Chamber again to discuss this matter. We were here less than a month ago after the revelations about Tuam. "Shocked", "horrified" and "dismayed" are some of the words we would use to describe what came before us. Coming from east Galway, I was bitterly hurt, upset and disappointed for the residents, the survivors, the mothers, the babies, those who were adopted, those who died, those who were fostered, those who lived nearby and those who live in Tuam and surrounding areas. It was a poor reflection on the people from Tuam and was not a true reflection of them.

While we agree in principle with the establishment of a truth commission, my party and I believe the Sinn Féin motion is premature. While in principle we are not against a truth commission, the best model would have to be agreed, should only be done following consultation with the survivors and various groups representing survivors and cannot usurp the current commission of inquiry. We have a number of concerns about the Sinn Féin motion. In the first instance, the motion does not acknowledge or affirm the ongoing commission of inquiry. The commission of inquiry needs to be able to complete its work. While imperfect, it is an important process that is making strong progress towards investigating and documenting the historical abuse and wrongdoing that took place in the mother and baby homes.

With this in mind, we are bringing forward an amendment that seeks to establish a truth commission that will complement the work of the ongoing commission of inquiry and be guided by survivors' wishes and needs. I wholeheartedly agree that this is a conversation that needs to happen. We need to plan for future needs. If we are to be true to all women and children born in the mother and baby homes and similar institutions, it should be open and non-prescriptive. If I have an issue with the Sinn Féin motion, it is that it is too prescriptive. It is so set in stone that there is no room for inclusion, expansion and contribution because this is what we need. Deputy Funchion was so right. We have to learn from the past, the Grace case and all these other cases, because if we do not learn, the same thing will happen repeatedly. This is why thousands of cases of abuse are before Tusla at this time. I certainly do not want that on my watch. What I do want on my watch is to push forward a truth commission. I wholeheartedly believe that if we were to come together as a group, do what the Minister says and work through consensus, we will get there with a truth commission. We need to include everyone. This includes all parliamentarians here. It includes not just mother and baby homes but all survivors from institutions and all children, be they fostered or adopted. We need their input. It cannot be a case of one party taking ownership. We must all work together for the people in the Public Gallery and those who represent people who are too shy and too withdrawn to come forward, because there is a serious amount of hurt, grief, anger and upset and people want answers.

The one part of the motion that I liked was that we would look at the oldest people first. If we are to go forward with the truth commission, people have the right to closure and answers. I hear what Sinn Féin is saying about my party's amendment, which leaves out what the Sinn Féin motion says about not having access to documents. There are two sides to this. Some people have walked away from that part of their lives and have closed the door. They have put on a mask and have dealt with it. They have the right to a choice when it comes to the disclosure of their documents. Sinn Féin Deputies are right when they say that people who make contributions to committees or the commission of inquiry should have access to what has been documented, but the only way we are going to address all of this is by saying that we want an expansion of the current commission of investigation. We need to establish a truth commission. We need to bring what we want to the one table. Looking at the motion and amendments before us, it is certain that we all want the truth. We all want to do the right thing by the survivors and those mothers. Most importantly, when history is being written, we certainly do not want to see a repeat of what happened in the past. We need to learn from that and to acknowledge that it was a dark time in history. Let us not repeat it. I would like to see consensus and all of us working together. I support the Minister in that I would like to see the current commission of inquiry complete its work. I would like to see that interim report appear.

I would like to see that the commission is working in a timely manner and that it is getting answers and will provide the people with Tuam the answers they require because they still do not have them. All they know is that a significant number of bodies were found. We need to know about DNA. The survivors and many others have so many questions and we need answers to those questions. If we do everything in a timely manner, people will be able to draw support and comfort from the fact that the commission of investigation is working in their best interests and will deliver results. These results will say in time that we learned. That is the most important thing for us to take from this. We must learn.

It is awfully important too to reflect on the survivors. That we are opening such wounds must be so harsh. It must be such a struggle for them. Day in, day out we are discussing these people. The last time I spoke in the Dáil, I said that it was not just women and babies from Tuam that we need to discuss. This did not just happen in Tuam. It happened throughout the country. We need to see the commission of investigation's remit expanded. My party will wholeheartedly support its expansion. The church has a role to play. This has been documented very well in the media recently. I will not get into it now but there is a whole scope of works there.

The amendment I have tabled to the motion addresses establishing the truth and giving people an opportunity. The most important people are the mothers, the babies and the survivors, young and old, who survived in those institutions. They have a story to tell and it must be listened to. I commend my amendment to the motion to the House.

Fianna Fáil welcomed the commission on mother and baby homes when it was established. That position has not changed. We recognise the vital importance of the commission in delivering justice and accountability for all those affected by mother and baby homes in Ireland. The most important focus are the mothers and their babies. These mothers, babies and families must come first. They must be our sole focus. In the Fianna Fáil amendment, we recognise the considerable harms that have been experienced by survivors of mother and baby homes and similar institutions.

The absolute shock and horror of seeing the names - like a roll call - of the 796 babies buried in the mother and baby home in Tuam is incomprehensible. A total of 796 babies, aged between 35 weeks and 3 years, were buried. Some were buried in graves but most were buried in septic tanks. It is hard to even say the words. These children died of whooping cough, bronchitis, pneumonia and malnutrition. Imagine a baby dying of hunger. It is so hard to take. Mothers and babies were separated at birth. They were torn apart. Some were adopted and sent to America for a better life - we hope. Last week, when reading an article in one of the Sunday newspapers, I was struck by the report of two children who were born in the Tuam mother and baby home in 1960. One was adopted in America and lived a good life. He was well educated and happy. They tried to adopt the girl at the same time. However, they could not do it financially. The girl did not have a good life. In fact, she had a very sad and horrendous life. This goes to show how the dice rolled for those two children. One had an exceptionally good life and the other did not.

These babies, mothers and families need the commission of investigation into mother and baby homes to complete its work in a timely fashion. These mothers need the truth. They need to know why their babies died. If their babies were adopted, they need to know what happened to them. They need closure. These women, siblings and families need to know what happened. For too long, the first thing they thought of every morning and the last thing they thought of every night was what happened to their babies. I believe a truth commission is necessary and our amendment to the motion seeks to establish a truth commission in a manner that complements and does not infringe on the ongoing commission of investigation. This would be done in co-operation with survivor groups to ensure that the truth commission is solely focused on the needs of survivors, who have to come first. I cannot emphasise enough that the survivors must come first.

The truth commission needs to be established in line with international best practice, and must be guided by similar commissions in South Africa, Chile and Canada. The views and experiences of all survivors of mother and baby homes must be listened to, respected and acknowledged. We need to bring healing and reconciliation to survivor communities, the broader public and the State. We must ensure that the stories and experiences of these women and children are not forgotten and that their memory is honoured in a respectful way. Before we can move forward as a nation, we must turn to the past and recognise its implications for today.

We have all been left shocked by the further revelations that have taken place over the past number of weeks. When we are faced with the excavation of hundreds of infant remains from a tiny plot in Tuam, we are faced with a legacy that will echo in our consciences and the conscience of the State and our ancestors forever. Twelve months ago, we proudly echoed and repeated the 1916 Proclamation point of treating children equally. The events of the past number of weeks have made it difficult to make sense of that. The religious institutions of the State did so well in areas such as education. My generation understands that they educated the poor and impoverished at a time when education was not as accessible as it is today. However, it is getting harder for the younger generation to have the same understanding when all they have heard over the past number of years about the church is stories of sexual immorality. Now they hear this.

Throughout a certain period, the church excelled in certain areas of society. However, when it came to protecting the most vulnerable and showing human compassion, it has been found badly wanting. I believe there is something different about the scenario we have seen over the past number of weeks. There is something different about hundreds of infants and babies - citizens of this State - being found in unmarked graves and septic tanks. This reverberates over all that has gone on before. We can no longer use the excuse that our ancestors were ignorant as to what was going on. They were part of society during this time. There was a certain truth in the Taoiseach's words when he said that no one was ever kidnapped but there is a duty on this generation to ask why. We need to explore fully all legacies. This means that placing the blame at the door of religious organisations is but one part of the redemption process.

In my county of Cork, there have been calls in recent days to excavate the grounds of the mother and baby home at Bessborough. I do not have an answer as to whether this should be done or not. However, if excavating bones such as in Tuam is a matter of giving the truth to those who seek it and have suffered so much, it needs to be seriously considered and all remains found given a decent Christian burial, as is right. That much they deserve.

In all of this debate, there is no one more important in this horrible, tragic and sad story than the survivors, the victims and those poor little bodies that were found without the recognition of a short life lived and a humane burial but in septic tanks. In recent weeks, we celebrated our national day in Ireland and across the world and gloried in all of our successes and achievements but the Tuam baby scandal reminds us of a dark chapter in our history and how inhumane our country's history is. In this case, the past is truly another country but we must acknowledge and learn and we must honour the memory of those who died. We must ensure a proper child protection environment for our children and we must honour and respect our survivors.

Fianna Fáil recognises the vital importance of the commission in delivering justice and accountability for all of those who have been affected. The commission must be able to complete its work of investigating and documenting the abuses and wrongdoing. Many survivors have awaited a report on this matter for decades and we must prioritise the timely completion of the commission's report.

I support the amendment tabled by my colleague, Deputy Anne Rabbitte, which proposes to establish a truth commission in co-operation with survivors groups that would complement the ongoing commission of investigation.

This week, with international mother's day approaching on Sunday, we must remember those mothers who gave birth but never got to be mothers or to love and cherish their children, see them grow up and share in the joys of their lives. Shame on all the men who fathered those children and walked away.

I welcome the decision of Sinn Féin to use the party's Private Members' time to give Deputies an opportunity to debate this issue. Some of us had an opportunity to debate this matter two weeks ago and it will be on the agenda again tomorrow.

The House must collectively try to figure out the best way to get to the truth of what occurred in mother and baby homes. None of us has a monopoly of wisdom in this regard. All of those who drafted amendments to the motion have tried to work towards the best way to approach this issue. I will move an amendment on behalf of the Labour Party. I agree that we must first ensure the commission does its work and my party's amendment refers to the commission for this reason.

The amendment also provides that the Minister will publish the interim report. I note she has given a commitment to do so, although it has not yet been published. It is also essential that the terms of reference of the commission are expanded because it is not adequate to cover only 14 mother and baby homes and four county homes. Many people living among us have experience of other homes in other locations that are not included in the list. Many were born in institutions that are not on the list. For this reason, our amendment prioritises publishing the interim report and expanding the commission's terms of reference.

In terms of getting to the truth, we need to focus on the work of Catherine Corless. Ms Corless, through unstinting and determined research, found death certificate after death certificate and kept digging until she was able to expose to all of us at least some of the truth of what happened in just one mother and baby home, namely, the Tuam home. Bessborough mother and baby home is another institution that has been cited but there must be similar stories in other parts of the country. We must shine a light on all of them because if we do not do so, we will not have the full truth we all seek.

We must ensure the people who went to mother and baby homes or were born in them are the first priority in terms of consultation. The Minister referred to consultation with academics, historians, recognised experts in transitional justice and others. She also indicated she had consulted survivors and people who had personal experience of the awful hurt imposed by society on the women in question and their children. The most important persons in all of this are the women and children who were affected. Irrespective of whether a truth commission or another forum is established to address this issue, the views of the women and children who experienced the mother and baby homes must be afforded greater importance than those of anyone else.

What happened to the babies must also be central to the commission's work. We know there was malnutrition, children were not properly fed and mortality rates among children in mother and baby homes were much higher than among children of similar ages in Ireland at the time. We also know the children in these homes were used as guinea pigs in vaccine trials and that illegal adoptions took place. However, we do not know the full truth in respect of any of these issues, all of which must be examined.

I do not know if a truth commission is the correct approach. There are different versions of the role of a truth commission. I am particularly concerned that a truth commission could in some way delay the work being done by the commission, which must be the priority. I am also concerned that such a commission could delay justice. As previous speakers noted, many of those who experienced mother and baby homes are getting on in life and some may wish to seek justice in the courts. We must not place obstacles in their way.

Having said that, I do not object to the concept of a truth commission, although, as I stated, I do not know exactly what it would entail. While the term "truth commission" slips off the tongue easily, what precisely does it involve? The commission to inquire into child abuse, for example, sat for a number of years and held private and public hearings at which people told their stories. As my party's spokesperson on the issue at the time, I met many survivors who were involved in that process. Some viewed the commission as positive because it allowed them to deal with their experience, while others believed it did not help them. We need to learn from all of that in deciding what type of forum we will establish.

The Minister cited the words of Seamus Heaney, which called to mind the words written by Leonard Cohen:

There is a crack in everything,

That's how the light gets in.

We must recognise the large cracks in our past and present by letting in the light. Leonard Cohen is a good example of someone who had great compassion for people who had been hurt by life and had to deal with all kinds of difficulties. We must take a similar compassionate approach. While I agree with Deputy Ó Laoghaire that compassion is essential, on its own, it is not what people want. They want to ensure that everything that happened to them is exposed, that they have a say and that there is some way they can get truth and justice in so far as that can be achieved. Achieving justice may be difficult because one cannot give people back their lives or babies. However, we have to reach conclusions that will reflect the best we can do at this stage.

I also agree with Deputies Funchion, Rabbitte and others that we must learn from the past by providing proper protection for children who are in vulnerable circumstances. While this issue is about the past, it is also very much about building a structure for the future that protects children, particularly the most vulnerable children.

In respect of amendments, amendments Nos. 2 to 4, inclusive, in the names of Fianna Fáil, the Labour Party and the AAA-PBP, respectively, cannot be moved until the first amendment in the name of the Minister has been disposed of.

An article in The Daily Telegraph in 2014 cited the words of Christy, who was adopted from the Bessborough mother and baby home in Cork.

My arms and legs were very badly scarred. But when I asked my mum why, she basically said when you arrived your arms were very sore and they were bandaged. I didn't know anything about vaccination trials. I've since been to a few doctors and they said they'd never seen anything like it - with so many injections.

Christy is just one of thousands of Irish children born or living in institutions who were used as guinea pigs provided by the religious orders for vaccine trials by the pharmaceutical industry. The big beneficiary of these trials was British pharmaceutical giant, Burroughs Wellcome and Company, as it was at the time, which is today known as GlaxoSmithKline, the sixth largest pharmaceutical company in the world, which had market capitalisation of Stg£81 billion as of August 2016, making it the fourth largest company on the London Stock Exchange. The company earned Stg£21.3 billion in 2013 from vaccines and drugs. Between 1960 and 1976 alone, more than 298 children across ten mother and baby homes, including Bessborough, were subject to experimental vaccine trials.

Over a period of almost 50 years, there were trials involving thousands of children, some of whom were mentally and physically disabled. This included children from dozens of institutions. Where was the consent? Some of the children grew up not realising for more than 30 years that they had been involved in these trials. The victims contacted their natural mothers. All the mothers contacted of whom we know said they had not been asked for permission. In 1962, the British Medical Journal seemed to confirm that parental permission was not sought when it said, "We are indebted to the medical officers in charge of the children's homes for permission to carry out this investigation on infants under their care". Consent was not a new concept in 1960-61. In 1947, the Nuremberg Code, which was developed as a result of the prosecution of Nazi doctors involved in experimenting on humans, stressed the need for the consent of subjects in clinical trials but here children were used as guinea pigs with no respect for their bodily integrity, treated differently from other citizens and, indeed, treated as lesser citizens. Changes were made to the 1960 and 1961 files under the control of the Sisters of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and Mary in 2002 just weeks after they received a discovery order from the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse. Admission and discharge dates for the mothers were altered because the original files would have shown they were not present to give their consent to these trials.

We will support the motion. It proposes a stronger, more comprehensive approach than that outlined by the Government, Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party. The mother and baby homes commission of inquiry has an interim report due at the end of the month. Has the commission called in representatives of GlaxoSmithKline and questioned them on their company's role in these events?

In conclusion, I would like to correct the record of the House on a matter relating to this subject. Speaking in a debate on the mother and baby homes on 9 March, I reported on a conversation I had with a survivor of the homes in 2010. I mistakenly stated that the gentleman concerned had been born in Bessborough whereas on checking I realised he had been born in the Castlepollard home and had investigated Bessborough later in his life as an adult. I ask that this correction be duly noted.

The motion is comprehensive, well thought out and ticks every box in terms of how the victims and survivors of this terrible debacle should be dealt with and how we try to get at the truth. I note with interest the reference to South Africa, Chile, Australia and Canada. These states secretly carried out butchery and genocide and engaged in cruelty against generations of people. The same description could be applied to the mother and baby homes on the basis of the information we have as of now. However, we have to get at the truth. In the case of South Africa under the apartheid regime, Chile under Pinochet and the treatment of the native peoples of Canada and Australia, the truth commissions examined something that was over. In the case of Ireland, the abuses of the church and State against people, given the control of the religious and the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, is not over. They are being maintained and we need to know more than what Sinn Féin is suggesting. I back the motion fully but I would like to amend it to state that what we say matters but what we do matters even more. To that end, I echo calls made by former Minister for Health, Deputy Micheál Martin, the current Minister for Health and by myself previously that the religious orders who dominated the State and who still dominate our health and education services be called in.

My amendment calls for three steps to be taken. I am calling for all necessary steps to be taken, and not to break the law by, first, rescinding the so-called Woods deal which indemnified all the churches and religious orders in 2002 under the congressional indemnity agreement; second, taking all the necessary steps to take into public ownership hospitals controlled by religious orders, including the Bon Secours, which is a private group, St. Vincent's Hospital and the Mater Hospital; and, third, beginning the process of the separation of church and State finally by removing the control of religious orders over the boards of management of our schools and hospitals. A total of 95% of our national schools are controlled by religious orders and a newspaper reported yesterday that six of the Dublin hospitals controlled by religious orders have wealth approaching €1 billion. We all know how little the churches paid back in restitution for the abuse. If we want to honour the legacy of those mothers and babies and address the terrible crimes committed against them, we have to begin to unravel where the crimes stem from by pulling up everything root and branch and, therefore, making a huge commitment to the separation of church and State. That is the amendment I would like to make to a well thought out motion, which deserves to be considered, rather than the Minister's amendment, which says we should leave this alone and wait until the commission reports. It is like telling me when I introduced a Bill to reduce the 14-year sentence relating to abortion not to change the law until we hear back from the Citizens Assembly. Things can be done in tandem rather than waiting.

I thank Sinn Féin for the opportunity to contribute to the debate, although I do not support it, and I will try to clarify why. The motion is not appropriate at the moment, given there is a commission of investigation, and we should use our combined strength to change its terms of reference to force accountability in respect of the interim report that is sitting on a desk since September 2016 without an explanation as to what is going on. We should listen to the survivors and the families, including my own, which have been deeply and personally affected by the mother and baby homes scandal.

The Minister quoted Heaney and, while he is one of my favourite poets and normally I would delight in hearing his poetry quoted anywhere, I would have preferred if she had quoted some of the survivors or from the briefing document prepared in October 2012 by officials in the Department of Health highlighting serious concerns relating to patient ill-health and the safety of babies in the mother and baby homes in Tuam and Bessborough, the possible alteration of birth and death certificates and other matters in the context of the Martin McAleese report. They said they did not have the wherewithal to investigate these issues. That is one of many briefing documents. We do not know how many and, while I accept the Minister's bona fides, my confidence in them has been stretched a little, notwithstanding that she inherited the situation.

It has certainly been stretched by the Minister's failure to publish the interim report. I wish that is what we were discussing in the Dáil with a view to having an influence on the terms of reference, the scoping extension the Minister has spoken about and so on. Now we are talking about a truth commission rather than forcing accountability in the ongoing process. One of the serious failures I have seen in the Dáil in my time and prior to it is its utter failure to hold the system to account. It is a point repeated ad nauseam by judges when they are put in charge of tribunals. They have repeatedly said if politicians asked questions and demanded answers, we would not need as many tribunals. Here we have a commission of inquiry with an interim report that has not been published and there is no excuse for that. It is appalling. Then there is a statement from the Minister saying we are coming to terms with the news as a community, a people and as a nation. I will try to stay away from the personal but as someone who is affected, we are coming to terms not with what happened but with the continual hiding of it by successive Governments and institutions. I have highlighted one briefing document that has not been referred to by the Minister or anybody in the Government and asked why it was not acted upon.

The issue of vaccine trials has been highlighted. It was highlighted in the commission into child abuse and, unfortunately, there was a judicial review to stop because the tribunal was acting outside its terms of reference. No Government has gone back to look at that. Once again, it was left.

I have asked repeatedly for a number of things in the current inquiry. I have asked that the site in Tuam be sealed off forensically and held. I have asked that other sites be looked at. I have asked that the time for the current commission be extended to allow more people to come forward in view of what was confirmed in Tuam. I do not say "discovered" because Catherine Corless highlighted this two years ago. The Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse was certainly aware of it from the many people who came forward and gave testimony. The Martin McAleese interdepartmental inquiry was fully aware of what was going on in the mother and baby homes so none of this comes as a shock. The shock is the continued cover-up. As someone who has been affected, I am not looking for reconciliation at this point for me. The survivors who are struggling gallantly to survive have not asked for reconciliation. What they have asked for is to be treated with dignity and respect and to be given maximum information. The Minister talks about empowering and I take it at face value. Survivors are empowered by being given maximum information. That is not happening. We have somebody down in the High Court currently looking for records. He had to go to the High Court to force a situation to get information about his sister. All of this is on the public record. When we see death certificates for places like the mother and baby home in Tuam, we cannot rely on them. The briefing document from October 2012 told us there was a serious possibility that those death certificates had been tampered with. Are we to mourn for those who are related to us who are supposedly buried in chambers in the mother and baby home in Tuam, in Bessborough and elsewhere? Are we to go and look to see if they have been adopted in America through illegal adoptions? The briefing document highlights that babies were shipped to America and many other countries. There were treble payments made to the mother and baby homes. The two that are cited are Bessborough and Tuam. There were payments by the mother, the State and the adoptive parents in America who were waiting for the children they were going to adopt to come over. All of this has been set out. None of it is new. Not one single piece of it is new. If the Minister is seriously interested in a new regime, openness and accountability, let us stop issuing statements that she will talk to the historians, academics and advocates and let us make a statement that we will listen to the survivors and families in the first instance. Will the Minister please stand up in the Dáil and account for why the report has not been published? Will she commit to a full and frank debate about that report as soon as it is published and confirm tonight the date of the publication of that report? That is what openness and accountability mean, at least to me. It is the least the survivors deserve.

I will finish by paying tribute to Mary Raftery whose name is not heard often enough in the Dáil. She died prematurely on 10 January 2012. She did extraordinary work in "States of Fear" back in 1999, in her book Suffer the Little Children and in "Cardinal Secrets". That woman exposed more in Ireland and forced more inquiries than the Dáil, which should have forced the situation.

In case anybody here forgets, let me finally quote the then Fianna Fáil Minister for Education and Science, Batt O'Keeffe, who said in September 2009 the Magdalen women were not entitled to redress from the State as the State "did not refer individuals nor was it complicit in referring individuals" to the Magdalen laundries. That was and remains the level of denial in this country. The McAleese report was forced by the then Irish Human Rights Commission, which did its own report. If the Minister has heard what I said and is truly interested in being open and accountable, let us start by confirming the date and by confirming there will be an open discussion with the view to looking at a commission of inquiry but first by extending the terms of the current inquiry.

In her opening remarks, the Minister addressed the sad passing of Martin McGuinness. With the indulgence of the Ceann Comhairle, I will say a few words on that. I hope the people from Tuam and others will not mind. I did not get an opportunity today. We cannot discuss, as the Minister said, the finding of the truth without acknowledging the role of Martin McGuinness in the recent history of our country. We certainly cannot. Regardless of our political loyalties, we all owe a debt of gratitude to Martin McGuinness for his part in delivering the legacy of the Good Friday Agreement. A generation of young Irish have come of age never having known the awful and terrible violence of the Northern conflict, thanks in large part to the political and personal courage he displayed. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam dílis.

In my remarks on this matter previously, I made the point that we all have been deeply disturbed by the events in Tuam. Our hearts have been touched by the thought that so many children could have ended their lives in an environment that may have neglected or abandoned them when they were most in need of help. There is no defending or excusing what is absolutely indefensible. It is a source of shame that so many of our nation's children died in that way and continue to die through various forms of abuse. The State is complicit in the deaths and maltreatment of these children and their families. This is not yesterday's problem. It is not a problem we have left behind. We continue to practice with horrifying regularity the betrayal of children and their families. It was only five years ago that a report reviewed the deaths of almost 200 children who died either in the care of the State or who were known to the State's care services from 2002 to 2012. Tuam horrifies us. It causes us all dismay and bewilderment how such practices could be carried out.

Where was the accountability? There was none. Where is it now, for that matter? Has anyone in the HSE or Tusla been held responsible for the neglect that led to 112 unnatural deaths of children between 2002 and 2012?

I see merit in a truth commission being established but it must be a search for the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It cannot descend into blanket condemnations. It must not create more divisions than it seeks to heal. Its work must be done responsibly and with appropriate caution. It must not become a State monopoly on the truth. All of the voices of Tuam must be heard and the question of responsibility addressed.

I have accepted the Minister's bona fides on several issues since her appointment. I welcome her openness, frankness and freshness that she brings to her position and her forthright responses on many issues. Dealing with this and many other issues will be difficult but I have asked the Minister previously to address ongoing situations. One response to a recent parliamentary question that I asked brought up a fact about the years 2013, 2014 and 2015, which was before the Minister was in power, although she was a Senator of some renown at that point. More than 18,000 cases of child abuse were reported in each of those years to the various bodies over which she now has control. We all must reflect on that. Despite all of the education, so-called learning, experience, legislation, Children First policies and so on, this was happening under our noses. It was close to me, close to us all, and happening daily. I am sure that the 2016 figures, which were not available when I asked my question, will not be much better.

Soul searching as well as a truth commission on Tuam is needed. There must be accountability on the part of the agencies that are charged with looking after our children in the face of such a shocking state of affairs.

I also wish to be associated with the expressions of sympathy to the family of Martin McGuinness. He did a great deal of good for many people. I was glad to have met him again recently. It seems like it was only the other day that he attended a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts. He came across the hallway, shook hands with me, smiled and congratulated me on getting elected and becoming a Member of Dáil Éireann.

Regarding the matter under discussion, every man and woman is outraged about what has been made known about Tuam and what happened to so many small babies in that mother and baby home as well as other homes, institutions and laundries throughout the country. People want to know what happened. Were these children starved? How were they treated when they got sick? If they had something that was contagious, were they kept away from the rest of the children? The good, honest people want to know whether anyone can be brought to account for the wrongs that were done to so many children and young women.

Deputies should not be haggling over which amendment to support. The Garda has a role to play in getting to the truth to ensure everything about what happened to the victims is made clear and, if possible, all the survivors are compensated properly.

This is a sad saga in our history. It was considered shameful for an unmarried girl to become pregnant, requiring her to disappear from view locally into what was known as a mother and baby home or an industrial school. All Deputies should ensure the Garda is doing what it should do, that is, investigate and bring people to account where possible. We must work together to ensure all those who were wronged in these homes and institutions and are still alive get some form of redress or compensation.

I understand that Deputy Nolan is sharing time with two colleagues.

Yes. Gabhaim mo bhuíochas as ucht an deis chun labhairt ar an rún fíorthábhachtach seo anocht. I commend my colleagues, Deputies Ó Laoghaire and Funchion, on their work on this serious issue, which is one that needs to be resolved. The people in question need closure in their lives. I commend Deputy Ó Laoghaire on tabling the motion, which I hope all parties will support. Every Deputy has been shocked by the recent revelations about the Tuam mother and baby home, just as we have been disgusted by the treatment of women in the Magdalen laundries and institutions run by the State.

The commission of investigation into the mother and baby homes has been set up in the midst of widespread criticism of its inadequate terms of reference. Sinn Féin has tabled numerous amendments and strenuously voiced its concerns about the terms of reference, yet these have gone ignored. Those who suffered in the system but were not at the listed mother and baby homes have been excluded. Survivors' groups have criticised the behind closed doors hearings and the perceived lack of transparency.

This motion seeks to establish a truth commission that would allow for the voices of all victims and survivors to be heard in public or private, whichever the individual wishes. At the end of the day, it is these people who need to be consulted. Their voices must be listened to and respected. The truth commission will build and expand on the work of the commission of investigation and prove a useful vehicle in getting to the truth about some of the darkest stains on the State's history. It may provide some comfort and closure to survivors and would allow access to the truth for those who have been excluded from the commission of investigation.

The State has the simple duty to help these survivors and get the answers they so badly deserve. They cannot get closure until they have those answers. To that end, I call on every Deputy to support the motion.

As the full, shocking story about the home in Tuam slowly emerges, the horrors of what happened in mother and baby homes, county homes, Magdalen laundries and other institutions, including the Bethany and Westbank homes, are beyond comprehension. Sinn Féin believes we need to extend investigations beyond the current commission, which is why it was necessary to draft this Private Members' motion.

The establishment of the commission of investigation into mother and baby homes under Judge Yvonne Murphy can be considered in many respects as inadequate, given that it excludes many who suffered under the system but were not in one of the prescribed mother and baby homes. Many survivors' groups also have concerns about its lack of transparency.

Our proposal on establishing a truth commission aims to establish the truth of what practices took place in these homes, identifying the institutions responsible for the systematic mistreatment of women and children, and the system as a whole. Our proposal would give survivors and victims the right to access files held in their names and provide them with a voice to express their feelings and experiences.

There have been many failures over the years in how the State has dealt with the legacy of abdicating its responsibility for the welfare of mothers and babies to religious organisations. There was a lack of overview and regulation and a failure to address the concerns raised down the years about what was happening in the homes. Even when it became more than apparent that serious abuses had occurred, the State stood frozen, silently wringing its hands and muttering platitudes while still doffing its cap to the religious institutions which successfully evaded answering or taking responsibility for the actions of their members who carried out these abuses.

That included the religious hierarchy who refused to financially compensate their victims unless it was dragged out of them and then in some cases not at all. The atmosphere and climate in the institutions was tolerated due to this State's failure. Let us remember who was in the institutions. It was young women and children, young girls who, as Austin Clarke in his 1963 poem said, were left to:

Cook, sew, wash, dig, milk cows, clean stables

And, twice a day, giving their babes the teat.

To date, the State has failed to initiate a meaningful process that would help obtain the truth for survivors. Neither has it provided a suitable forum that would allow the full story of the institutions and the system that underpinned them to be made public. Considering the long line of failure in regard to the institutions, we are introducing this Private Members' motion calling for a truth commission to be established to allow the State to break the cycle of failure and start the process of a truthful discourse of a shameful past.

If one thing is clear about how we must proceed to address the shameful scandal of abuse, neglect and imprisonment represented by the mother and baby homes which operated in this State it is that we must as a principle accept and believe the word of the survivors of these crimes. I believe the survivors of places like Bessborough, Bethany and other homes. I know some survivors personally. I believe them when they describe a kind of existence which to be perfectly honest I do not want to believe but I know from their dignity and resolve and from the catalogue of already exposed outrages that the horrors of which they speak are true and that they must be brought out into the light.

This motion demands we ensure a process is put in place for that to happen so that survivors can seek solace in that openness and that we as a nation can look at ourselves and our society and truly say, never again, that this will never be allowed to happen again, to be swept under the carpet or to be denied. Until we do that we will be a nation living in a deep and inescapable cloud of shame. I am proud to have worked with the campaigner, Joan McDermott from Cork, and to call her a friend. She is the definition of a survivor. She is my hero. She was imprisoned in the hell of Bessborough House in 1967 because she had committed the crime of becoming pregnant in holy Catholic Ireland. She told the European Parliament in 2014 that "The nuns there treated us like you wouldn't treat a dog". When she went into labour, she was locked alone in a room overnight. Her son was stolen from her and placed into adoption just seven and a half weeks after she gave birth. Upon release she was told to never return to her homeland. She was lied to at every turn when trying to find her son. Somehow, through great resolve and strength, Joan managed to build a life afterwards. After 50 years she was reunited with her son who had to ask her what was his own date of birth. Through her story and her campaigning Joan has made it clear again and again that it is only by seeking the truth and speaking it loudly that healing is allowed to happen. Untold hurt has been done and the healing has come far too late but we can begin that process now. The Minister mentioned that she had spoken to some of the experts. Joan McDermott is an expert. She is the type of person to whom the Minister should speak. People such as her have lived the experience. Many of the women who survived these crimes have already gone on record. That is not an easy thing for anyone to do given the deep trauma. We must respect that and seek to allow existing testimony to be treated with due respect and to not be ignored, especially for survivors who are no longer with us. We must also ensure that we build an Ireland which respects and defends the rights of women as that is not the case even to this day.

There is no suggestion that the motion would undermine the commission of investigation. We want the commission to finish its work, even though we feel it is inadequate but that does not mean we cannot work towards a truth commission, which needs to happen. I urge all Members to please support the motion.

I begin my contribution on this motion tonight by offering my personal condolences to the family of Martin McGuinness, his many friends and his colleagues in this House. The leadership which Martin provided in dealing with the challenges of our recent history on this island serves as an exemplar of what can be achieved when reconciliation is championed.

I acknowledge the women and children who were in mother and baby homes in this country in the last century, and the survivors, some of whom are present, and extended families who are deeply saddened and distressed by the confirmation of human remains on the site of the former Tuam home. As that news continues to be absorbed, I know many people in my constituency are experiencing a great deal of anxiety and anticipation about what might happen next. It is now very important that all concerned respond sensitively and respectfully to the developments, with particular regard for the hurt and pain involved for those directly connected to the mother and baby homes.

The findings were a further tragic reminder that in the early years of the State, we utterly failed to live up to our ambition and promise to cherish all the children of the nation equally. Unmarried mothers and their children were unjustly stigmatised and forced to feel so much shame and guilt. That was wrong. We must now carry the burden for how our country failed to appropriately and compassionately care for them when they most needed our protection and support not our judgment.

I add my voice to the praise for the valuable humanitarian work undertaken by Catherine Corless. Her research greatly assisted in bringing these matters to public attention. Her dedicated and selfless efforts to assist former residents, and the families of those who died, in their efforts to research what happened to their loved ones is to be commended. I fully endorse her desire to have the dignity of deceased children who lived their often short lives in these homes respected, acknowledged and recognised in a permanent way.

The debate this evening has again demonstrated the complexity of those issues and the degree to which Irish society failed to deal with the difficult issues it had decided to ignore. I have listened to the contributions of Deputies and the issues raised emphasise the challenge of seeking to respond inclusively and sensitively to the value and dignity of the lives that were lost in Tuam and beyond. In responding to these issues, it is important to remember that this House's focus on mother and baby homes commenced in earnest following a motion passed on 11 June 2014, which identified the need to establish the facts regarding the deaths of children at the Bon Secours mother and baby home in Tuam, County Galway between 1925 and 1961, including arrangements for the burial of the children. Those matters were considered by Dáil Eireann to be of significant public concern requiring, in the public interest, examination by the establishment of a commission of investigation. Notwithstanding that the Bon Secours mother and baby home in Tuam was the original focus of public concerns, the terms of reference for the commission which was subsequently established reflected a deliberate focus on the need to document a comprehensive account of the institutions; the often harrowing manner in which women and their children were treated; how they came to be there in the first place; and, the circumstances of their departure from the homes. As outlined previously by my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Zappone, the motion tabled this evening seems to ignore entirely the valuable work that the commission was established to do - and is doing - under the leadership of Judge Yvonne Murphy. The work of the commission of investigation is a vital step on the path we have commenced to achieve a holistic truth, and to give true meaning to the values we say define us as a people and a country. We know its findings will be painful.

However, its reports will be critical in assisting us, in so far as we can, to come to an understanding of how society failed utterly in its response to vulnerable women and their children.

It is understandable that the discovery of human remains has generated renewed calls to re-examine and extend the present commission's terms of reference. The Government is very conscious of these calls and the people who have been deeply impacted by these issues, and we are open to examining these issues further. However, the debate of recent weeks has risked losing sight of the breadth and considerable scope of the existing commission's terms of reference. The commission already has significant autonomy to follow where the investigation takes it and to make any recommendations it deems necessary to facilitate its work. This is important as the commission is examining records to which the State, or any other parties, would not have had access to previously. We are now more than two years into a three-year process. Facilitating the commission to complete its investigation, establish the facts of what happened and issue its reports must remain as a priority. Whereas some of the issues being raised in the debate tonight are outside the intended remit of this commission, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs has committed to carrying out a scoping exercise regarding the commission's terms of reference to see if broader terms of reference would help answer the many questions now arising. The Minister, Deputy Zappone, will engage with the commission on this matter and make further announcements about this process in the coming weeks.

The Government recognises the heightened demand for a thorough and holistic understanding of events and experiences following confirmation of the discovery of human remains on the former site of the Tuam mother and baby home. As detailed in the amendment to the motion and further outlined in the Minister's opening contribution to the debate, the Minister is committed to exploring the application of a range of transitional justice mechanisms. The focus will look beyond the work of the commission to acknowledge further the experiences of former residents and to enhance public awareness and understanding of a range of past abuses and human rights failures. In this context, it is again important to be aware of related processes already in place. The confidential committee forum within the commission's terms of reference was specifically included to facilitate former residents of these homes who may wish to provide accounts of their experience and to do so in a safe and private way. This forum will also assist the commission to ground its work in the reality of the experience of mothers and children. The Minister will consult interested parties to make sure this examines whether this could be done in a way that meets the needs of those who may wish to engage with such a process and to ensure it aligns properly with the work of the commission on mother and baby homes that is already deep into its programme of work.

The Government’s amendment to the motion and the steps and processes it proposes are further tangible evidence of our commitment to ensuring a full and objective account is delivered into the past failures endured by vulnerable women and children in mother and baby homes. We must dispel the secrecy and the shame so unjustly experienced by so many. I commend the amendment to the House.

I thank all Deputies for their expressions of sympathy with regard to our colleague, Mr. Martin McGuinness, for which we are very grateful. I put on record my own sadness at his passing. He made an enormous contribution to Ireland as a whole and the peace process specifically. I express my condolences to Bernie and his family.

I thank the various Deputies for their contributions to the debate. I will respond to some of the queries and issues raised relating to the motion. I emphasise that this is a motion; it is not legislation. Nobody is under any illusion that when the motion is passed, a truth commission will be established the following morning. Therefore, this is a statement of principles, aspiration and commitment. This is about the House making a firm commitment to establishing a truth commission, what shape such a truth commission would take and the minimum standards that such a commission would involve. If Deputies are committed to the idea of a truth commission, I see nothing in my original motion that would preclude anyone from supporting it.

It has been stated that the motion is too detailed or set in stone but I endeavoured deliberately to leave each clause wide open to ensure there was a high degree of flexibility in terms of whatever institutions would be required to be involved or whatever themes needed to be explored to allow us as wide a latitude as possible in taking the various issues into account as well as the various persons who might have been affected by the abuse of these institutions and the bodies of the State. It is for that reason the clauses were left quite open.

It is important to emphasise there is no suggestion that the commission of investigation would be precluded from completing its work. That is not disputed and it never has been. On numerous occasions, including the past couple of weeks, I have raised the need to publish the long overdue interim report. It is very long overdue, and although it is due to be published quite soon, there are questions as to why it has taken this long. It remains important. This motion emphasises that a commission of investigation would not be adequate. Not only are its terms of reference, which are referred to on a number of occasions, inadequate but the model is flawed. I will return to this.

Deputy Connolly, in an excellent speech, raised the point of accountability, and I wholeheartedly agree on that point. Our motion proposes specifically that the process we advocate should not in any manner impinge upon or conflict with a judicial or criminal process. We want to emphasise our view that the Tuam site should be sealed and the Garda, as well as the coroner, should be involved. We have called on the Minister for Justice and Equality to outline whether the Garda has taken any action on foot of the Tuam revelations.

I will also respond to Deputy Connolly's point on reconciliation. In some places, there have been truth and reconciliation commissions, which are slightly different. Although the model is the same, the principle and the ethos are quite different. In some places a truth and reconciliation commission is appropriate but this was not a conflict between two equal sides. This was a one-sided victimisation and mistreatment of women and children so there is no obligation or responsibility on the survivors to reconcile with their oppressors.

I will return briefly to the point of the commission of investigation. It is our firm view that the findings of the interim report should be put in place but we should begin the process of developing a truth commission as soon as possible. It would not impinge on the development of a truth commission to allow the work to be completed. The final report of the commission of investigation would offer a very strong platform and basis on which all the issues that were discussed in the commission could be expanded.

There are several specific aspects of the motion that would be neglected if the motion were not passed or if an amended version were passed. There is no doubt in my mind that where we can, we should consider the scope of the terms of reference of the commission of investigation. It is my view and that of many survivors that this commission of investigation is an inadequate model that will not deliver the whole truth or justice. It will not achieve justice for all survivors. We must move away from the approach of prescribed lists, which will always draw the line somewhere and exclude somebody. We must move to a system that is thematic and engages with people on the basis of their experiences and suffering.

In acknowledging that, I am of the view that the motion we pass should contain a clear commitment to establishing a truth commission that would go beyond the commission of investigation in its work. I welcome that several of the amendments contain such a commitment but there must also be minimum standards for such a commission. In particular, the survivors and those participating must have access to their own documentation. It is a cause of great frustration, anger and dismay that persons who have given testimony at the commission of investigation have not been allowed to access that testimony. It is also the case that many are frustrated that they are prevented from giving testimony in a manner which suits them. We need to offer people the option to give testimony or to participate in a truth commission in a manner that suits them, whether that is in public or in private, such as they desire. The survivors must be given discretion in that regard.

The other significant aspect of this motion, which has, to a large extent, been neglected in the debate, relates to the need to ensure that an injunction should be sought in respect of those sites on which there are potential unmarked graves or graves of which we are not aware. There should be a commitment from Government to prevent any interference with those sites. Government intervention is required to prevent any possible development of or interference with those sites that would infringe upon the possibility of examination and investigation in order to establish whether there are unmarked graves. There is a desire to find out more about a number of sites - Donnybrook, Bessborough and elsewhere - and the only motion that will contain a commitment in this regard is that which was originally tabled by my party. I call on those other parties that have tabled amendments to reconsider them because there needs to be a firm commitment from the State that it will not allow the truth relating to the locations and settings to which I refer to be interfered with or, potentially, destroyed or obscured. That is a very important point.

All contributions emphasised the need to listen to survivors. I agree with and wholeheartedly welcome all those contributions and that recognition. It is for this reason that my party proposed in its motion that an advisory committee made up of survivors should be established in order to guide the truth commission at every stage and that it be developed in consultation with survivors every step of the way.

I emphasise that many of the survivors are quite frustrated at this stage. It is worth noting that the truth commission and the commission of investigation, such as they have or may be delivered, are the fruit of many years of campaigning and work on the part of those survivors. There were times, I am sure, when it felt that nobody was listening but, through their own strength, resilience and determination, they achieved the establishment of a commission of investigation. I hope they can achieve much more. However, very many of them are quite frustrated with the commission of investigation as it stands. We will be letting them down and not recognising their frustration if we fail to commit not only to having the commission of investigation conclude its work but also to going far beyond that with a process which engages with them in a way that they can have full confidence in and which ensures that all survivors who had any dealings with any of the institutions involved will be included. We must also ensure that they have full access to their own documentation and testimony. They must be in a position to have full confidence and faith in the process.

Amendment put.

In accordance with Standing Order 70(2), the division is postponed until the weekly division time on Thursday, 23 March 2017.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.35 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Wednesday, 22 March 2016.
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