Topical Issue Debate

Services for People with Disabilities

Deputy Gerry Adams

I thank the Minister of State for being present. It is no exaggeration to say that people with disabilities and their families in my constituency of Louth-East Meath and across this State are being treated deplorably. I have met dozens of families with citizens with intellectual disabilities and they all tell a similar tale of the never-ending fight to access services from this State. These are services which should be theirs by right. The anger of parents in particular is palpable. They are furious at how their loved ones are being treated and they feel that nobody is listening.

I will give the House some examples and I thank those individuals for permitting me to tell their stories. Michael McManus was born in 1962. He suffered a seizure at two years of age which resulted in severe brain damage. As a result, Michael today, at 54, has the mental age and development of a two year old. Michael's family provided for all his needs at home until it was no longer possible for them to do so. This is a sad enough story but it is the State's attitude to Michael and people like him which really angers those who care for him. The day of Michael's mother's death, he was moved by the then health board to residential accommodation. His family later realised that Michael had been moved to a psychiatric facility in County Monaghan. Here, among other major issues, the family reported that Michael was attacked in his bed by another resident. It was only after a sustained campaign, including legal representation, that Michael was eventually given a place in St. John of God's-St. Mary's Drumcar facility, which is located in my constituency. There are many troubling issues with the Drumcar facility and I have raised these directly with the management and the HSE and in the Dáil. However, the fact is Michael has lived happily there for over 20 years. He now faces the possibility of being moved again as part of the decongregation policy.

Sinn Féin supports decongregation. Evidence backs the assertion that it delivers better quality of life for people in residential accommodation. However, we have to be sensitive about it. We have to consult with those people and we have to do it at their pace. For Michael and others, my office has been in contact with Drumcar, his home. These families are not against decongregation per se but they have simply not been consulted by the HSE regarding the future plans for their loved ones. This, I am sure the Minister of State will agree, is totally unacceptable. The families have real fears that if their loved ones are moved, their quality of care will reduce, they may be moved to inappropriate locations and they will be traumatised by being taken out of their familiar surroundings.

Other families have cared for their loved ones all their lives. They describe themselves to me as "the first generation to bring the disabled babies home". This was a time when babies with disabilities were being put into mother and baby homes and other institutions. They have reared them from infancy. Now, their children are in their 40s or older. These people, now elderly themselves, have met a brick wall in terms of the future care of their now adult children. They are part of the Dundalk Parents and Friends of the Intellectually Disabled. They have been campaigning for years and working with the HSE, Louth County Council and the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government in order to provide future homes for their children in Dundalk.

One size does not fit all, particularly for people with additional needs. For every family like Michael's there is another family who cannot wait for their loved ones to be moved to a community setting. Will the Minister of State meet these families to hear their experiences and discuss the future care of our disabled citizens?

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Helen McEntee)

I thank the Deputy for raising this extremely important issue and for giving me the opportunity to outline the position on services for people with disabilities who need respite supports. I am taking this issue on behalf of the Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath, who sends his apologies for not being present.

The Government's ongoing priority is the safeguarding of vulnerable people in the care of the health service and it is committed to providing services and supports for people with disabilities which will empower them to live independent lives, provide them with greater independence in accessing the services they choose and enhance their ability to tailor the supports required to meet their needs and plan their lives. The provision of respite services has come under additional pressure in the past number of years. An increasing number of children and adults are now seeking access to respite and the changing needs of people with a disability are also having an impact, as they, along with the rest of the population, live longer lives.

The HSE acknowledges the need for additional respite for adults with intellectual disabilities in County Louth for adults and children with a disability and their families. I agree with the Deputy that one size does not fit all and it is important to outline the respite that is currently provided at the following locations in County Louth. Respite for adults with a physical disability is provided by the Irish Wheelchair Association at Sruthan House, Dundalk, which is a three bedroom house that operates six nights per week in a community setting social model providing holiday respite. Respite for adults with intellectual disabilities is provided by Moorehall Healthcare in a three bedroom house that operates seven nights per week in a community setting social model, providing holiday respite in Ardee, County Louth, with approximately 80 adults availing of this service. Respite for adults with intellectual disabilities is also provided by St. John of God's north east service in a seven bed house on the campus at St. Mary's, Drumcar, to which the Deputy referred. The house operates seven nights per week in a medical nurse-led model, with approximately 42 adults availing of this service. Respite for children with intellectual disabilities is provided by St. John of God's north east service in a seven bed house on the campus at St. Mary's, Drumcar. The house operates seven nights per week in a medical nurse-led model, with approximately nine children availing of this service. Respite for children with intellectual disabilities is also provided by RehabCare at the Maria Goretti Centre, Lordship, County Louth in a four bedroom house. This house operates six nights per week, with approximately 80 families availing of this service.

Again, I agree there needs to be absolute consultation with individuals and their family members should circumstances change. If there are particular cases the Deputy wants to pass on to me, I can certainly bring them to the attention of the Minister of State, Deputy McGrath. A Programme for a Partnership Government recognises the need for respite services to be developed further and the Minister of State with responsibility for disability has acknowledged this. These matters will remain on the agenda of the Minister of State in the context of budgetary provision in the coming years.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I know the Minister of State is stepping in for the Minister. I have raised some of these issues directly with the Minister, including another case of a 42 year old constituent who is non-verbal and has high support needs. I raised that issue with the Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath, in the Chamber five weeks ago and I am still waiting for a response. The HSE told me this man's need for a residential placement has been identified but that a business case for additional funding for this placement was not successful. What is his family to do? That is the question. They cannot meet his needs at home any longer so what are they to do? This is another forgotten citizen in the greatest little country in the world in which to do business. I could go on and on.

The Minister of State is also a constituency Teachta Dála and she meets with families who are looking for speech and language therapy, occupational therapy, medical assessments and supports. It is a never-ending life of worry; it never stops. If one rears children from infancy until they are in their 40s, as in these cases, there is no respite. One of these men, a 42 year old, spends all night in the house of his elderly parents walking up and down the stairs without cease. There are currently 7,176 children waiting over one year for assessments or initial therapies under early intervention services. I am reminded it is only one year since we celebrated and extolled the centenary of the 1916 Rising and, in all of that time, these children and their parents have been trying to get early intervention services. Now that the lofty rhetoric of ministerial speeches has faded, the reality of life for these citizens with disabilities and their families stands in stark, tragic contradiction of all the fine words.

I am sorry the Minister cannot be here although I understand Ministers cannot be here every time to take Topical Issues. However, the Government needs to get real and tell these parents what its plans are for dealing with these citizens.

Deputy Helen McEntee

There is an absolute recognition not just by the HSE but by the Minister that additional supports and additional funds need to be put in place specifically for these groups of individuals, the adults in their 40s and 50s who are living at home with their parents, who are in their 70s and 80s. It is absolutely not a situation in which they should be, and additional support needs to be provided for adults with high support needs and those in emergency and crisis situations.

However, we do find ourselves in a situation in which we have limited resources. We must work within the budgetary constraints, all the while trying to provide support for the most vulnerable in our society. The Deputy is right. In my own county of Meath, we need additional support and additional respite for our children, young adults and the parents of those people as well.

To outline the specifics in County Louth, funding for this year for children's respite from six to 18 years amounts to €438,000. For adult intellectual respite, there is €531,000. For adult physical and sensory respite, there is €440,000. Of the €31 million allocated for the adult intellectual disability and children's respite in St. John of God, a portion of that is going to Louth. The Minister and I agree that this is not enough. Again, a case has to be put forward and, within the constraints of the budget, every effort will be made to provide support and respite for those who need it most.

Residential Institutions Statutory Fund

Deputy Clare Daly

The Minister for Education and Skills is aware that I recently tabled legislation to amend the residential institutions statutory fund. The fund was charged with assisting and administering some sort of redress to the people who had experienced abuse in residential institutions. Subsequent to that, there was an explosion in the media, particularly on the radio airwaves, concerning some of these issues when the CEO of the Caranua scheme, Ms Mary Higgins, addressed some of those concerns raised by survivors in the most derogatory manner possible. She actually succeeded in adding to the victimisation and trauma experienced by already traumatised people. The narrative put forward by the CEO of Caranua was one in which survivors of institutional abuse were called "these people", that they "will never be happy" and other terms such as that, which are highly inappropriate. It was a distortion of the truth and an unashamed attempt by her to pass the blame for the failings of Caranua onto the victims and survivors themselves. The lack of empathy and the derogatory characterisation is proof of what those survivors have been saying. Rather than helping them, the Caranua process has served to revictimise them.

During the debate on my Bill, the mismanagement of the scheme was highlighted by Deputies from all sides of the House. It is clear from representations that we all receive in our offices from applicants and from the appeal officers' annual report that there are hundreds if not thousands of applicants who have been affected by delays, arbitrary cut-offs, an inconsistent approach from advisers and rudeness in many instances. For example, people have been told that it is not a sweet shop. When one complainant got on to my office, she said that when she was issued a quote for replacement windows, she was told by the Caranua staff member that he could have had a six-bedroom house done for that amount of money and that he was going to have to go and seriously get that checked out. The woman said she felt like her word was being questioned and that he was making her out to be a liar. Having waited all that time even to make the application, to be treated like that was really hard to take. When survivors brought those stories onto the airwaves, the CEO of Caranua dismissed them. However, we know that what the survivors are saying is true because of what they have said to us and because of the way that our offices have been treated when we have had to try to make representations.

Does the Minister think it is satisfactory for the person who is the public face of Caranua to speak about people like that? What action has the Minister taken to address the situation? I do not believe it is acceptable for anybody to behave like that, but for somebody who got a €10,000 pay increase from the very fund she is supposed to be administering, bringing her salary up to more than €87,000 per annum, to still express views like that is absolutely reprehensible as far as I am concerned. Clearly, what we have here is the sort of continuation of the hard-line approach being adopted by the State to survivors which has been evident in the Magdalen laundries and in the exclusion of the Bethany homes from the mother and baby home inquiries. I do not think it is acceptable for the Minister or for other members of the Government to allow those comments to go unchecked. If he does not challenge it, he is only furthering and adding to the damage.

Minister for Education and Skills (Deputy Richard Bruton)

I thank Deputy Daly for raising this issue. I know she has been very persistent in pursuing these issues. As she knows, Caranua is an independent body. It is established under legislation. It has certain purposes and functions that it has to execute. It is funded not by the Exchequer but by a contribution from the religious orders. It has a sum of €110 million to distribute. At this stage, more than 5,500 applications have been made. Payment of around 55% of the fund has been dispersed at this stage to approximately 4,200 applicants. Those applicants are people who were granted awards under the redress scheme. The Deputy is right in that there have been a number of public criticisms of Caranua aired in the media by survivors of abuse. I myself have met some of the survivors. I am very conscious of the concerns that they have raised about the administration of the fund. The CEO and the board have attempted to respond to those criticisms. They have publicly acknowledged many difficulties that arose, especially in the early period when the system was being set up. Many difficulties were acknowledged as having occurred. Last year, additional procedures were changed to try to make things better.

As we have expressed here in the Dáil, I believe it is the view of all sides in the House that it is absolutely necessary that we continue to improve those procedures. It is vital that in all of our dealings with people who have been the victims of appalling abuse at a time when the State stood by and did not meet its responsibilities we have to be sure that the systems are sensitive, fair and compassionate to those who were affected. I believe survivors must be dealt with in such a fashion. The comments made were unfortunate and could be misconstrued. My belief is that the whole process has to be designed for the survivors. I am very conscious that in meeting the obligations under the Act, there are purposes that have to be met, application procedures, accountability procedures to the Committee of Public Accounts and all the rest of it. There are also complaints procedures, appeal procedures and recourse to the Ombudsman designed to protect people. I can well understand, and I know directly from speaking to people, that some of these procedures, which from an administrative point of view may seem fair and necessary, can seem very irksome to people who have suffered a sustained period of abuse and who, as the Deputy has described, can feel that these are obstacles that are being put in their way that are prolonging their suffering.

I am determined that we continue to improve the operation of Caranua. I believe it is fair to say that many people have got good service from it. It handles thousands and thousands of applications. There is no doubt that there has been good service, but there have also been instances in which people feel that did not occur. Not only were procedures changed last year, but that is also why we now have a review of the whole system under way. I know that the Deputy is extremely anxious that there be changes in the way that system works. I will be examining her request for quicker handling of cases, broadening the coverage and so on. My belief is we have to ensure that we still have substantial sums in the fund. We have to ensure this system works fairly but that it still meets the standards that are set out in that legislation. It is a balance that has to be struck. My concern is to make sure that people are treated fairly and compassionately.

Deputy Clare Daly

I appreciate the Minister taking the Topical Issue matter and I very much appreciate his comments in publicly acknowledging on the floor of the House the problems that exist with the scheme. I also appreciate his very clear utterances that any scheme that deals with the victims of abuse of the State or while the State stood by must be carried out in a sensitive, fair and compassionate manner. I totally echo those points. What the Minister was saying without saying it was that the behaviour and utterances of the CEO were not acceptable.

The Minister referred to them as unfortunate and said that they could possibly be misconstrued. They were most unfortunate for the victims of abuse and caused extreme hurt. They represent the exact scenario that the Minister said he did not want to see. They showed insensitivity, a lack of fairness and a total lack of compassion. We have to spell that out and I believe the Minister can do so. The comments of the chief executive could not have been misconstrued. They reflected what she said.

In an interview in The Irish Times, Mary Higgins mentioned 19 suspected cases of fraud. Why throw in something like that? If fraud was alleged, why did she not go to the Garda? Inferring fraud in an application process involving thousands amounts to an inference that everyone was out to scam the scheme.

At the same time, residents or survivors feel aggrieved by the fact that Caranua tried to impose a cap on the scheme retrospectively for applicants whose applications were never processed in the first place. If we are to talk about scams, then let us talk about that one.

We need to see the Minister stepping in to ensure Caranua fulfils its obligations. I know the Minister has said that he is looking for submissions on the review to devise the terms of reference for the review. That seems to me to be a review about a review. Moreover, statutorily, the review should have been carried out some years ago. It is beyond its sell-by date in that sense.

I am pleased the Minister has publicly acknowledged the problems in a round-about way in terms of the chief executive. The Minister was probably hard enough in some ways but I believe the message has to go out loud and clear. Has the Minister discussed the issue with the chief executive of Caranua? Does the Minister have any plans to meet her in the foreseeable future?

Deputy Richard Bruton

I assure the Deputy that I will be meeting the board and the chairman in the context of the ongoing review. I believe it is important to use this review as an opportunity to ensure we make the system the best that it can be.

There will always be problems in the way any official body operates in respect of obligations to meet criteria, receipt of applications and meeting the obligations of the Committee of Public Accounts and so on. We need to try to design processes that are easier to use. I know there have been frustrations around the appeal and complaint mechanisms. However, cases of recourse to the ombudsman have been few enough. Obviously, that is a port of call. We should try to make it as seamless as we can.

To be fair to Caranua, the fund has been doing good work. It has tried to improve its procedures consistently. Those involved have sought to broaden the scope of the fund.

I can understand how the concept of putting in place a cap came about. There was a concern that additional applications were coming and that the cupboard would effectively be bare for some of the applications if the expenditure continued on some of the trends. Obviously, that approach can be considered in the course of the review in respect of whether that was an appropriate way to proceed.

We are trying to ensure that people are supported in the best way possible through the fund. Legislative obligations must be met and Caranua has to balance that as well as being sensitive to the hurt that people have suffered and the obligations that we all have to those people.

I hope that through this review we can bring about a system that responds more effectively. To be fair, Caranua has been trying to improve the system progressively from a difficult start. That is something everyone acknowledges.

School Enrolments

Deputy Alan Farrell

I thank the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Bruton, for his presence. The Minister will be fully aware that I have been consistently raising the issue of enrolment at Swords primary schools with the Minister and his Department officials for several months.

I understand that in January the Department provided the local authority with a comprehensive report on the availability of space for the coming year. Regrettably, it has been found that once enrolment was complete in those schools, there were excessive applications in the hundreds throughout the community of Swords. The list provided by the Department included schools that I consider to be on the periphery of Swords and that do not cater for the areas specifically suffering from excessive enrolment numbers. I offer some examples. In Holy Family junior national school, the figure is 107. In Holywell Educate Together national school the list is described as lengthy. In Thornleigh Educate Together national school the number is 25. In Swords Educate Together national school the number is 145. In St. Cronan's junior national school the number is 45. In Scoil an Duinnínigh the number is 30. In Gaelscoil Bhrian Bóroimhe the number is 40. Those are the numbers of people on the waiting lists for enrolment this September.

In the main, these children are four or five years of age. The remainder is made up of those meeting lower enrolment criteria, such as those living outside the catchment area. We should bear in mind that they could be resident in Swords but not be in the catchment area of the school in question.

We also have considerable enlargement of the community in Swords. For example, yesterday, in a welcome announcement, the Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government adverted to €20 million of infrastructural investment to free up development lands. A total of €5 million of this figure is for north-west Swords. This will deliver in the region of 3,000 properties in the coming five to seven years or thereabouts. A third of these will be social and affordable properties.

The head-room figures for Swords were provided to me by Fingal County Council planning department this morning. I am grateful to the council for the figures. The head-room figure for the end of the current development plan, which runs up to 2025, is 10,000 units. I realise the Department has ceased making the mistake of assuming that when a house is built a couple move in and then four or five years later a classroom requirement arises. We learned that lesson in 2008, when 80 children showed up to a school in Balbriggan with bags, uniforms and books but no classroom space. However, the reality of the situation is that it does not appear the Department has adequately catered for educational demand in Swords. As a resident of the town for 13 years I was rather disappointed to learn this, especially having received assurances in writing from the Department in January this year. One particular school was in contact with me early on. I am referring to the Holy Family junior national school. The school has an extraordinary figure of 107 children on the waiting list. As far as I can determine, only 27 of those children have yet to reach the age of five years. The rest are of school-going age in my mind but have no place at the moment. There may well be duplication on these lists but I do not believe that all the 300 children or thereabouts that I have listed represent duplicates, nor do I believe that they are from outside the catchment areas or they would not have been accepted onto the school waiting lists in the first instance.

The Minister represents part of the county of Fingal. I imagine, therefore, he is aware that it is the fastest growing constituency in Europe and it has the youngest population in Ireland. Yesterday, the announcement was made on additional funding to free up development lands. I urge the Minister to give the River Valley community in particular serious consideration for funding. This is now at crisis point. Many parents in the community have been in touch with me. They simply have no option.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I thank Deputy Alan Farrell for raising this issue. It is important to set out the backdrop. Our Department is seeking to provide 20,000 new places every year. This includes 15,000 new places for expanding populations and 5,000 necessary replacements. That is absorbing 80% of our budget. We have to be sensitive and ensure that when we commit to expand capacity, it is genuinely needed. The reliance on demographic calculations is at the core of what we seek to do.

I agree with Deputy Farrell that Swords is a growth area. Currently, we are undertaking a detailed demographic review throughout the country in light of the new census returns, preschool places and so on. They make up the dataset. I would be in no way surprised if Swords showed the need for additional capacity in future. The review will be available later in the year.

My Department is tracking enrolment at present particularly closely. There are 13 schools in the catchment. We have to work within the catchments.

The estimation is that there will be about 760 enrolments in junior infants. At this stage my Department remains confident that the availability of places will meet the requirements. As the Deputy rightly acknowledges, there is some duplication, with parents making applications to different schools at the same time. Nonetheless, my Department has been advised by three primary schools that they currently have junior infant places available. These schools have also expressed a willingness to offer further junior infant places for 2017 if necessary. We have the capacity to monitor this and respond, should it be necessary. I acknowledge this always creates uncertainty for parents and I sympathise with that. People may find that they are not getting a place in the school of their choice and that presents difficulties. However, given the pressure on our school building budgets, I have to ensure that priority lies with areas where there is clear population growth and additional capacity needed. That is why we go through this process.

The advice I have received from my departmental officials is that they remain confident that we will be able to meet the demands of the area. However, we are monitoring closely the acceptance of places in different schools and the knock-on effect those acceptances have on the waiting lists in other schools. Those effects are only materialising as we speak. We are keeping a very close eye on the situation. I am very conscious of the concern that Deputy Farrell has repeatedly expressed on this issue.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I thank the Minister for his remarks and would be interested to know the names of the three schools to which he referred in his response. I have been informed that approximately 27 of the applicants on the waiting list for the Holy Family junior national school were born in November or December of 2012, 14 of whom have siblings in the school. The Minister knows Swords well. If a parent is travelling from River Valley to St. Cronan's, Swords Educate Together or even to Scoil an Duinnínigh and has already deposited one child in a school in River Valley, it is not possible or acceptable to expect that parent to drive another child to a different school for the same start time, or within 15 minutes, because some of the school start times are staggered, to be fair. It is not acceptable to expect parents to cross the town of Swords, which has a population of 50,000 and a substandard internal road infrastructure.

My issue is not with the Minister but with the forward planning unit in his Department. My issue stems from the fact that these problems can be foreseen. If we were planning Swords tomorrow we would not build the schools in their current locations but we must work with what we have. The local authority delivered a plan a number of years ago on the development of Swords, entitled Swords 2035, which envisages a doubling of the population to 100,000. The census 2016 results will be published in a week or two and I am sure they will show a significant increase in the population of the town. Metro north will be delivered in seven or eight years which will free up lands in the Lissenhall area of north-east Swords for as much as 10,000 units. I am sorry to say that I do not believe that the Department can make an assessment at this particular moment in time that there are sufficient numbers of junior infant places. Unfortunately I do not have time to refer to the likes of Rivermeade national school, which is 4 km from the town and has two empty classrooms. That school is crying out for students. There are so many issues in the community that I believe are not being addressed adequately.

Deputy Richard Bruton

The Deputy raises a number of issues. The reason schools give preference to siblings is to try to avoid a situation where parents have to go to different schools. That is acknowledged in admission policies.

The Department has much improved its liaison with the local authorities. We rely on local authorities for the identification of new sites and liaise very closely with them in the planning and development process. I know that Fingal County Council's development plan is under review, which gives us an opportunity to look at plotting to ensure, as the Deputy says, that we match provision for schooling in the future with population developments. Our departmental planning system is responding to the actual intake of pupils. We rely on data on children born in the area, preschool numbers and so on. We look at all of these data to try to come up with a calculation.

It is my understanding that three schools, Scoil Cholmcille, St. Cronan's and Holywell Educate Together currently have places on offer. Obviously, we must wait to see whether the rounds of offers, which occur in cycles, meet the needs in the catchment area. The Department believes they will do so but there are indications that should additional places be required, some schools would make provision for additional enrolments. We will continue to monitor the situation very closely.

Laboratory Facilities

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I thank the Ceann Comhairle's office for selecting this Topical Issue matter for discussion today. I was concerned to read in last Thursday's edition of the Irish Farmers' Journal that the expert working group reviewing the Department's current network of regional veterinary laboratories is recommending the closure of three, namely, those in Sligo, Limerick and Kilkenny. This would be a disaster for two reasons. It would undermine the maintenance of premier disease surveillance facilities at key locations and would discommode farmers, forcing them to travel long distances to avail of critical services which are fundamental to their farm enterprises.

The closure of the Sligo veterinary laboratory will leave the north west without any regional veterinary facility. I come from Donegal and can say from personal experience that the laboratory in Sligo provides highly important services to farmers across the north west. It has conducted more than 3,000 post mortems and has tested 25,500 samples since 2015. The facility serves seven counties including Donegal, Sligo, Cavan and Leitrim. It is the only veterinary laboratory for the entire north-west region.

If these closures are to proceed, the rural communities that depend on the agrifood sector as a primary economic activity will be negatively impacted, with farmers having to transport dead animals hundreds of miles across the country for services that are currently available on a regional basis. I can speak about the situation in the north west and the Sligo laboratory on the basis of personal experience but I am aware that the same situation faces farmers who currently avail of the services of the laboratories in Kilkenny and Limerick.

Any closures would undermine the Government's recently launched rural action plan. In addition, there is significant cross-Border co-operation in the area of animal health and welfare. An all-island animal health and welfare strategy facilitates the free movement of animals on the island but with Brexit on the horizon, the closure of these three veterinary laboratories will put at risk the current animal health monitoring and disease surveillance system in operation, thereby negatively impacting the agrifood sector. We need to be doing everything we can to support farmers, not forcing them to make costly and unnecessary journeys for essential services.

The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Creed, has said that he will engage in a consultation process with stakeholders. Can the Minister of State, Deputy Doyle, give an assurance today to very worried farmers in the regions affected that the regional veterinary laboratories in Sligo, Limerick and Kilkenny will remain open? Does the Minister of State believe that we should be enhancing service provision in this vital area rather than downgrading it, which has unfortunately been the hallmark of a number of Fine Gael and Government policies on service provision in rural Ireland? As was outlined in reports last week, these closures will lead to a huge loss of geographical coverage as well as the loss of contact with the industry on a local basis. Rural Ireland has seen enough cuts in recent years. I urge the Minister of State not to add to that by closing these laboratories, which would negatively impact on our biggest native industry.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Andrew Doyle)

I thank Deputy McConalogue for raising this issue. My colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Creed, is currently on what seems to be a weekly Brexit-related tour of EU member states.

He was in Estonia yesterday and is in Poland today so he asked me to take this Topical Issue, which I believe was listed for yesterday.

Apart from a regional veterinary laboratory, RVL, that is co-located with my Department's central laboratory complex at Backweston, County Kildare, my Department operates five other RVLs, which are located at the outskirts of Athlone, Cork, Kilkenny, Limerick and Sligo. Each RVL has a small multidisciplinary team, typically comprising 12 people, including three veterinarians, three laboratory analysts and six support staff. The RVLs have three principal roles: to provide a veterinary laboratory diagnostic service to the farming community through their veterinary practitioners; to collect and publish data on the pattern and frequency of diseases in farmed animals; and to assist in the investigation of incidents or outbreaks of disease of particular animal, environmental or public health significance.

The RVLs provide a diagnostic service to the farming community through private veterinary practitioners, accepting carcasses of animals for post mortem examination and clinical samples - blood, milk, faeces, etc. - collected on farm for analysis. All submissions are voluntary and a small fee is charged for most submissions. Each RVL has an effective catchment area for voluntary carcass submissions. Some 90% come from within a 65 km radius or an approximately 1.5 hour drive with a car and trailer. The information derived from providing this service, when aggregated, forms the basis of monthly and annual surveillance reports on animal diseases.

It is essential that we develop a long-term strategy for our laboratories that builds on existing capability and expertise in animal health, food safety and plant sciences and ensures we achieve both operational and scientific excellence. This was the primary reason for tasking a working group, led by Professor Alan Reilly, with undertaking a comprehensive review of our laboratories. Having considered the current and future needs of the Department and its external stakeholders, this working group presented a report to my Department late last year that makes recommendations on the oversight and co-ordination of the laboratories' activities; re-organisation of structures and functions within the central laboratory complex; options for the future development of the regional laboratories, with a view to improving disease investigative and surveillance capability but with the overriding imperative of maintaining and enhancing services to farmers; and human resources management within the laboratories, with a focus on grading structures, career development opportunities and workforce planning.

My Department's laboratory management team is now consulting relevant stakeholders, including staff in all of the laboratories, on these recommendations. It is important to emphasise that a decision on any of the working group's recommendations will require waiting for the outcome of this process. In the case of the RVLs, any decision will be informed by a cost-benefit analysis of the various options that have been proposed. I will refer to some of the specifics in response to the supplementary questions.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I thank the Minister of State for his response. As Deputies Eamon Scanlon and Tony McLoughlin will attest to, there is grave concern over the proposals, particularly in the north west. Deputy Eamon Scanlon and I have met farming representatives on numerous occasions to hear those concerns, in addition to the very real concerns over any impact the proposals would have on the utilisation of the service.

My key question was whether a report with a final recommendation on closing three RVLs has been submitted to the Minister of State at this stage. There has been consultation with staff over recent weeks. Have they made a final recommendation regarding the approach they are urging the Minister of State and Minister to adopt? Could the Minister of State comment on and clarity that? A report in the Irish Farmers' Journal last Thursday indicated that the recommendation is to close three RVLs, which is very concerning. It was stated that this is the advice to the Minister. Can the Minister of State assure us there is understanding at ministerial, political and departmental levels of the importance of the RVL network and of protecting it?

According to the initial report, the annual running costs of a three-RVL model and the current six-RVL model are the same. Therefore, cost is not an issue, although the capital cost might be slightly higher for the six-RVL model. Crucially, however, the service available to farmers will be much different if the current model is protected and maintained. Can the Minister of State update us on whether the final recommendation has been received? If not, what is the timeframe for submitting it to the Department?

Deputy Andrew Doyle

I am not aware of a final recommendation being made. The concerns raised by the Deputy, Deputies Scanlon and McLoughlin and others are well understood by the Department and by me, as a farmer who has used the laboratory services. It sometimes takes me longer than an hour and a half to get to Backweston if I hit the traffic in the wrong way, although that is neither here nor there. I can understand the concern.

The proposed cost is approximately €1 million per laboratory per year, with the exception of Backweston, which is totally different. It is a fact that three options were presented that are now part of the consultative process. The first involves the current footprint, of six centres, comprising the five RVLs and Backweston. The second involves three centres of excellence, each about twice the size of the existing RVLs, with a sector-specific focus. One would be focused on beef cattle and sheep, one would be focused on pigs and poultry and one would be for dairy. The other option put forward was a single centre similar to the Dutch and Belgian models. The Netherlands and Belgium are smaller geographically but that is just the model that was proposed.

It is important to make the point that the Department is currently finalising - this should inform the final decision - its submission to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform on the mid-term review of the 2016-21 capital plan, specifying additional payment for capital funding of approximately €10 million over the period 2018 to 2023 for upgrading the physical infrastructure at the RVLs. This submission does state the laboratories are in urgent need of refurbishment but also highlights the working group's deliberations. Within that mix, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform will be asked to provide more funding for the upgrading of laboratories. Also sought will be the value analysis, which is what the working group has done.

There is a consultative process. There is no decision made. There will not be until the consultative process, which includes the staff, is complete. I appreciate the geographic importance of certain laboratories within the system.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 29 Mar 2017