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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 4 Apr 2017

Vol. 945 No. 2

Order of Business

Today's business shall be No. 5, motion re establishment of a Special Joint Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution; No. 11, statements on Brexit, to include No. 6, motion re report of the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs entitled "Committee Travel to Brussels 7-8 February 2017"; and No. 6a, motion to instruct the committee on the Bail (Amendment) Bill 2016. Private Members' business shall be No. 91, motion re Defence Forces, selected by Fianna Fáil.

Wednesday's business shall be No. 11, statements on Brexit, to include No. 6, motion re report of the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs entitled "Committee Travel to Brussels 7-8 February 2017", resumed, if not previously concluded. Private Members' business shall be No. 92, motion re extension of maternity leave and maternity benefit for mothers of premature babies, selected by the Social Democrats and Green Party group.

Thursday's business shall be No. 19, Thirty-fifth Amendment of the Constitution (Divorce) Bill 2016 - Second Stage; and No. 1, Hallmarking (Amendment) Bill 2016 - Order for Second Stage and Second Stage. Second Stage of No. 20, Statute of Limitations (Amendment) Bill 2017, will be debated in the evening slot.

I refer Members to the revised report of the Business Committee dated 3 April 2017.

In relation to Tuesday's business, it is proposed that:

(1) the Dáil shall sit later than 10.00 p.m.;

(2) motion re establishment of a Special Joint Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution will be taken without debate;

(3) Statements on Brexit, to include the motion re report of the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs entitled Committee Travel to Brussels 7-8 February 2017. Statements of a Minister or Minister of State and the main spokespersons of parties or groups or a Member nominated in their stead shall not exceed ten minutes each. After the opening round the statements shall adjourn until Wednesday when statements of all other Members shall not exceed ten minutes each and all Members may share time. A Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to reply for a period not exceeding ten minutes;

(4) motion to instruct the committee on the Bail (Amendment) Bill 2016 shall conclude within 60 minutes. Speeches of a Minister or Minister of State and the main spokespersons, or a member nominated in their stead, shall not exceed 7.5 minutes each and each division demanded thereon will be taken immediately; and

(5) Private Members' business shall take place on the conclusion of the motion to instruct the committee for two hours.

In relation to Thursday's business, it is proposed that the order of the Dáil of 6 July, 2016, that Second Stage of the Thirty-fifth Amendment of the Constitution (Divorce) Bill 2016 be taken in Private Members' time, be discharged and that Second Stage of the Bill be taken in Government time. Second Stage of the Bill shall conclude within two hours, and the speech of a Government proposer or a Member nominated in his or her stead shall not exceed ten minutes. Speeches of all other Members shall not exceed ten minutes each and all members may share time. A Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to reply for a period not exceeding ten minutes.

There are two proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with Tuesday's business agreed to?

We already indicated to the Business Committee in advance that the putting back of Private Members' time from 8 p.m. to 8.30 p.m. to facilitate the recommital of the Bail (Amendment) Bill is not satisfactory from our point of view. It is our Private Members' time this week and many people committed to Defence Force issues will be in attendance this evening. Having Private Members' debates taken at very late hours does not do them any justice and undermines any potential impact such debates can have.

We remain continually opposed to the manner in which the time is allocated to respective parties on debates such as that on the EU Council. The manner in which debating time is allocated in the House is not fair and it has been referred to the Sub-committee on Dáil Reform. We have a situation where Members of a party with 44 Deputies get ten minutes and a party with three Deputies also gets ten minutes. That is not fair. It is not d'Hondt, it is not proportionate and it is not reasonable. Many backbenchers in the main parties cannot get an opportunity to make any contribution to these debates. I am putting the House on notice we believe this is very unfair to parties generally. We are open to a reasonable accommodation and agreement on this, but as things are currently structured we cannot support it.

I call Deputy Boyd Barrett. On which issue will he speak?

On the Order that was read out.

We are dealing with Tuesday's business first.

This is to do with the entire Order, including Tuesday, and on foot of the discussion had at the Business Committee. I proposed to the Business Committee that if the dispute at Bus Éireann was not moving towards resolution there would be a full debate this week on Bus Éireann. At the time it was agreed by all, after a lengthy discussion that dominated the Business Committee, that it would be looked at again today. Topical issues were set aside for the debate but if the strike was not looking as if it was moving towards a resolution a substantial debate would be allowed for this week. This agreement should be followed through. I have just come from the picket line and the workers there are very determined in their view that the Houses of the Oireachtas, public representatives, the Government and the Minister, Deputy Ross, have to address this issue, which is affecting the whole country and, most clearly, those workers on the picket line.

I ask that the Government and the others who were at the Business Committee follow through with that agreement and allow for a minimum two hour debate to address this issue of such national importance this week. I do not care whether it is today, Wednesday or Thursday, but this House has to debate that issue as agreed.

I will deal initially with the first item raised by Deputy Micheál Martin. That is the Private Members' motion on the Defence Forces, which was pushed back to 8.25 p.m. Can the Whip respond to that?

The answer is "Yes" and "No". The timing of these debates is not my decision. It is our decision. We agreed this on Thursday. With respect, there was no dissent noted on Thursday.

A note was sent-----

As a member of-----

It was not brought up on Thursday, so I could not do anything about it then.

It was only brought into the Deputy yesterday morning. There was communication from the Business Committee yesterday morning to recommit the amendment Bill and that was the first notice we had of Fine Gael looking for time from our Private Members' business. We objected to it when it was brought to our attention.

It was my first time hearing about it.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle-----

Does Deputy Mattie McGrath have a proposal to make?

I was at the meeting too. We agreed on it. I understood that the committee rang yesterday. It rang me as Whip to change this and I understood that there was agreement.

There obviously was not, was there?

There is not agreement now.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle-----

I call Deputy Howlin.

We are constantly making announcements on the notion of having a business committee. We cannot have this discussion here. Either we are going to abandon the notion of having a business committee-----

-----making the decisions on behalf of all of us, because there is no point in having a parallel debate-----

Did the Business Committee decide this yesterday?

There should be another meeting of the Business Committee if what has been presented by Deputy Mattie McGrath is not what was agreed at the Business Committee-----

There was no meeting yesterday.

Then there should be another meeting of the Business Committee.

There was no meeting yesterday.

In case I missed something, is this a dispute over timing? What is in the difference?

Yes, but we raised it.

Half an hour. I thought I was hearing things.

We discussed that about 20 minutes ago.

We are exhausting this time discussing a difference of half an hour - very productive.

The Irish Army is important to us.

I realise what the Deputy is saying. There is another issue which I will deal with, which is the question of speaking time.

I dealt with two issues.

We will deal with that.

Deputy McDonald clearly did not hear properly-----

Speaking time-----

-----when she said she was hearing things because I mentioned the timing-----

We will deal with one at a time-----

-----and I will take Deputy Martin's next. I will ask the Taoiseach on-----

(Interruptions).

On a point of order-----

I agree with Deputy Howlin. If there is going to be-----

I doubt it was a point of order.

It relates to the capacity of the House to debate an industrial relations dispute. Has some protocol been established that the House cannot debate it? I ask for clarification.

(Interruptions).

Let us take one at a time.

The issue I raised was discussed at the Business Committee at length-----

We cannot take the three together. We are taking one at a time.

I am all for process.

There is little point in having a business committee to make decisions for the House if it is going to be changed every time it comes back in here.

Fine Gael has it changed every time.

Deputy Micheál Martin might be a little upset that the Private Members' time of his party was being pushed back by 25 minutes. This was agreed last Thursday and there was no problem. There is a problem now.

(Interruptions).

Nobody wants to take any-----

The Taoiseach without interruption, please.

Nobody wants to take any time from the Fianna Fáil Party's Private Members' business. It is necessary for there to be a motion to deal with the Bail (Amendment) Bill, which is important legislation. The motion is necessary so that certain amendments can be taken on Committee Stage tomorrow. Let me make a suggestion. If the discussion on the Bail (Amendment) Bill is started on that motion, it can be adjourned at 8 p.m., and the Private Members' business of Fianna Fáil can be taken. If there is a requirement after that to continue discussion on the motion of the Bail (Amendment) Bill, it can be done afterwards. That will not discommode Fianna Fáil and it will still have its full time at the appointed hour. It would be better if the Whips had made the arrangements-----

We have a proposal-----

Can I just correct-----

-----from the Taoiseach.

To be fair, because the Taoiseach is not aware-----

The Deputy and Taoiseach would better have their discussions-----

This was not discussed at the meeting last Thursday, so apologies to the Fianna Fáil Whip.

The Taoiseach has made a proposal.

Apparently, it was discussed during phone conversations yesterday, which I did not know about, so apologies for misleading the Fianna Fáil Whip earlier.

The Taoiseach has made a proposal. Is that agreed? Agreed. Deputy Martin raised the issue of time slots, and I presume that is one that must be discussed by the Business Committee.

It has been discussed and a reform has been agreed.

(Interruptions).

That will not be resolved today. I am sure Deputy Boyd Barrett is aware the Ceann Comhairle has combined three of the Topical Issues on Bus Éireann to accommodate 15 Deputies. Does the Government side or Deputy Mattie McGrath want to make any comment on the debate on Bus Éireann?

I understood that we had agreed a protocol. I know that Deputy Boyd Barrett had to leave last week. I understood the Ceann Comhairle was firm on what we would do if the strike had not ended, or talks had not taken place.

Deputy Boyd Barrett is correct. Last week we agreed that we would allocate the entire Topical Issue debate to the issue today and that the Ceann Comhairle would make a decision. I understand from speaking to him this morning that he will make the decision as to whether we have a debate on Thursday morning. It is not off the agenda.

We have three days. We are not going to do it today.

Just so we are clear, this was discussed at length. It was the issue that dominated the Business Committee, and the agreement was that we would definitely have Topical Issues allocated today, three of them completely. However, it was argued strongly that if the strike continued that would not be adequate. It was suggested last Thursday that we could not be certain whether the strike was moving towards resolution and if by Tuesday it was clear that it was not moving towards resolution, then there would be a full debate in the Dáil. That is what was agreed.

I hear what the Deputy is saying.

Is there a commitment that is going to happen?

It is for Topical Issues.

That is not what was agreed.

The Business Committee should decide on this either this evening or tomorrow morning.

People keep looking towards me as if it is my decision to make. It is not. What we agreed on Thursday was that we would have Topical Issues today. The Ceann Comhairle made a ruling this morning that we will wait until Topical Issues today and he will then have a meeting. It is not up to me to decide that we are going to have a debate on Thursday morning. It is up to us to decide.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Is the proposal for dealing with Thursday's business agreed? Agreed. We have 15 minutes left for questions on promised legislation. We should have short, snappy questions and answers to give everybody an opportunity.

On Private Members' business this evening, Deputy Lisa Chambers will raise the situation pertaining to our Defence Forces. I put it to the Taoiseach that, in the context of the programme for Government and its commitment to the Defence Forces that over the last number of years, he has presided over a continuing deterioration in morale in our Defence Forces, and also in capacity and capability. We are now down to about 9,000 personnel, which is about 500 below the agreed strength of 9,500. Army officer numbers have gone down 15%, Naval Service officers are down 7.5%, and Air Corps are down 13.5%. I have met with the representative bodies of the Defence Forces, and there is extreme concern about the Army's capacity, for example, to deal with a major incident or a major event in this country. It has been run into the ground, and there is a lack of status and policy prioritisation being attached to our Defence Forces. Morale is at an all time low. Can the Taoiseach indicate to me when he believes that the commitments in the programme for Government in respect of the Defence Forces can be realised?

There is a debate on this matter this evening. The previous Government spent almost three years putting together a detailed White Paper on the future of the Defence Forces. Their budget has increased again this year. I do not agree with Deputy Martin on the issue of morale.

The programme for Government and the White Paper are being followed through and it is our intention to keep the Defence Forces as a priority item, as we always have done. There will be further elaboration by the Minister of State with responsibility for this area this evening but Fianna Fáil's Private Members' business calls for a reversal of elements of the White Paper, which would not be in the best interests of the Defence Forces.

In the section of the programme for Government on creating a healthy Ireland, the Government commits to updating the national eye care plan, including an evaluation of the Sligo model for cataract surgery. Anyone who read the account of 87 year old Agnes O'Connor in The Irish Times this morning will have been outraged by the failure of the health system to treat her eye deterioration properly or speedily. Thousands of patients with eye problems are at risk of permanent sight loss because of the loss of resources available to the ophthalmology service. This has been described as a hidden scandal. Some 13,000 are waiting for treatment and 3,500 have been waiting for more than a year. The report on the review of primary eye services has been delayed by a year. Can the Taoiseach indicate when he expects the review to be published? Is he prepared to commit additional resources to tackle this scandal?

There has been an exceptional allocation of moneys for the health service this year, more than ever before at €14.5 billion.

It goes into a black hole.

The priorities are set out by the HSE with a plan approved by the Minister for Health and eye treatment and services are part of that. It is unfortunate that waiting lists are as long as they are. I do not know the detail of the report to which Deputy McDonald referred but I will find out from the Minister if it has been completed and when it is to be published.

In last year's budget, the Government promised that an affordable child care scheme would be introduced in September this year. At the time, my party said the approach was not ambitious enough and that is still our view but we regard the introduction of the scheme as the correct overall approach. When will we see the legislation to enable this to happen and is it still a firm commitment of Government that the scheme will be in place for September?

The time schedule is tight. We had pre-legislative scrutiny in February and there is further pre-legislative scrutiny tomorrow. The objective is to have it finalised and put through before the summer recess so that it can be effective in September, as we committed to do.

On page 144 of the programme for Government, under the heading "Promoting Fundamental Rights", it states:

We will promote fundamental rights, the rule of law... We will continue to protect and promote human rights... and to support the work of Human Rights Defenders.

This evening, the Halawa sisters, along with human rights organisations, will gather outside the Dáil because of the critical situation of Ibrahim, who went unconscious over the weekend because he is not accepting glucose injections. His life is literally on the line and human rights organisations such as Amnesty have pointed out that his continued imprisonment represents an inexcusable violation of international and Egyptian law. Given the commitment in the programme for Government, and the critical life-threatening situation of a young man who is the victim of a violation of basic human rights, what is the Government going to do to address this?

To back up Deputy Boyd Barrett, I was on a Dáil delegation in January along with Deputy Howlin and others to visit Ibrahim. I call on the Government to send the Minister for Foreign Affairs to Egypt on a humanitarian basis to seek his release. Our understanding from the independent medical examination is that his health has deteriorated gravely.

The core objective of any Government and, in particular, the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, is to protect the welfare and safety of its citizens. I urge the Taoiseach to send the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Flanagan, and whoever else is required, to urge the Egyptian Government even to release Ibrahim Halawa on bail under house arrest. This young man has been on and off hunger strike since November. He is a decent young guy for whom I and others can personally vouch.

I have to say-----

This situation cannot be allowed to continue.

----- it is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

I know, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, but this is an exceptional circumstance. I ask for the Taoiseach's urgent intervention.

If it is about promised legislation, the Taoiseach may answer.

Amendments to the programme for Government.

In respect of the programme for Government and the legislation, I was concerned about some reports over the past fortnight. The Government made a decision to send an independent Irish medical doctor to Cairo to talk to and carry out a medical assessment on Ibrahim Halawa. That happened.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade has been to Cairo on three occasions already. He was to speak to the Egyptian Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr. Shoukry, last week, but that meeting did not happen because he was held up in Washington on Middle East business. The Egyptian authorities were more than willing to assist in this matter.

While this might not be a normal intervention, it was done because of the comments in respect of Ibrahim Halawa's health. The Government arranged for an Irish doctor nominated by the chief medical officer to go to Cairo last week. He participated in a consular visit to Ibrahim Halawa at the Wadi el-Natrun prison on 29 March with the ambassador. He was there for four hours. They met Ibrahim Halawa for an hour and a half. The doctor observed a medical examination of Ibrahim Halawa carried out by an Egyptian doctor. It is not appropriate for me or any other Government spokesperson to reveal or comment on the details of Ibrahim Halawa's health condition. As the Deputy knows, these matters are private and confidential. However, I can say the Irish doctor, who is a GP, recommended that specialist medical evaluations take place and that Ibrahim Halawa be returned to Ireland for such assessments and on humanitarian grounds.

Last evening I sent another urgent letter to President el-Sisi on the basis that he be released on humanitarian grounds. The case is due to go to court tomorrow. The Egyptian President has been quite clear and very consistent all along that he can only use his presidential powers of pardon after a court case has actually taken place.

That is not true. People were released before the court case despite the same precedent.

His life is on the line now.

We have had a question and an answer. I have been lenient.

We are very concerned about it and it is receiving the most urgent attention of any Irish citizen abroad.

Is it not appropriate to the Order of Business. I call Deputy Danny Healy-Rae to ask something appropriate to the Order of Business.

Housing was supposed to be a priority for this Government. The housing crisis is getting worse. More and more people have to leave their homes. The banks are selling them. Landlords are selling houses. Bureaucracy and red tape are still holding up the building of local authority housing. The four-stage process demanded by the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government is holding up local authorities and the building of houses. While they can opt for the one-stage process, in reality they cannot because if they opt for the one-stage process and any extra costs arise, the local authorities have to foot that bill. Therefore, they will not opt for that in the way that it was hoped to be operated.

The Government has announced millions and millions of euro several times and yet very little has been built. I suppose there will be more announcements of funding, but nothing built.

A question on the Order of Business.

What will the Government do about this? What will it do about the Irish banks that are so slow to lend to small builders and developers? Without funding they cannot build houses.

On promised legislation, I call the Taoiseach.

That is not to do with legislation.

Of course it is.

It is to do with the supply of housing. The Minister for Housing-----

It was supposed to be a priority for the Government and if not, it should give up.

The Minister-----

It is in the programme for Government; the Taoiseach knows more about it.

The Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government was clear on supply being the problem. Last week, when I met Deputy Healy-Rae in Firies in County Kerry, he was very complimentary of the work that is going on there and the employment that is taking place.

That was about a different thing.

While I am at it and while I am on my feet-----

Answer the question I asked.

I will move on if the Taoiseach is not listened to.

-----I tell Deputy Healy-Rae as a Kerryman that he should be very proud of the achievements of Colm "The Gooch" Cooper over the years. We wish him well in his retirement.

Kerry should be very proud of their luck last Sunday too.

That is very unfair of the Taoiseach. He has made no attempt whatsoever to answer the question he was asked.

I will move on to Deputy David Cullinane. We will not say anything-----

Pull out altogether-----

We will not say anything about their luck last Sunday. I call Deputy David Cullinane.

I have asked the Taoiseach on three occasions to confirm that there will be a commission of investigation into NAMA. On two of those occasions, he stated that he would await the publication of the report of the Committee of Public Accounts. It has been published. On the last occasion, he stated that he would wait until statements were heard in the Dáil. Statements were heard in the Dáil. The Taoiseach has run out of excuses. I now want to hear a clear and emphatic response from the Taoiseach that he will set up such a commission. While the Taoiseach is on his feet, will he also inform the Dáil when the Minister for Finance will come back to the House and use the opportunity to retract comments he made about members of the Committee of Public Accounts-----

I call the Taoiseach to respond on promised legislation.

-----and to deal with the threat which he apparently made to the Chairman of the committee that he would injunct a constitutional committee on the matter?

There will be another opportunity to discuss that issue.

Will the Taoiseach confirm first of all that there will be a committee of investigation?

We cannot allow-----

Will he also confirm that the Minister for Finance will apologise to all the members of the Committee of Public Accounts for his conduct?

Deputy, please. There are other Members. I have been very lenient. This is on promised legislation, if the Taoiseach wishes to respond.

I received a letter from Deputy Micheál Martin and Deputy Gerry Adams to meet further about the decision in principle that we took to hold a commission of investigation into NAMA. I intend to honour those letters and have that meeting. I have pointed out that such a commission would be limited by jurisdiction and by virtue of some legal impediments, perhaps, to having all of the correspondence and paperwork it might wish to have. I have received two requests for meetings and I intend to honour them.

The last question will be from Deputy Josepha Madigan. I will inform the Ceann Comhairle's office that Deputies Brady, Connolly, Nolan and Kenny will not have an opportunity today and ask that they be considered tomorrow.

In Copenhagen in 2009, developed countries pledged €100 billion per annum by 2020 to help developing countries deal with climate change. This was also highlighted in Paris. The green climate fund is the delivery mechanism for much of this funding. In that regard, I am inquiring about the green climate fund Bill, which gives effect, as we know, to the UN framework convention on climate change. Will the Taoiseach apprise me of the status of the Bill?

Preparatory work has been under way for some time on it. I will advise the Deputy of the up-to-date position.

I thank the Taoiseach.

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