Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 4 May 2017

Vol. 949 No. 2

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Michael McGrath

It has been clear in the past week, even before the beginning of the Brexit negotiations between the United Kingdom and the European Union, that attitudes on both sides are hardening. This is increasing the likelihood of a hard Brexit, an outcome we certainly do not want in Ireland. The posturing on both sides, including the selective leaking of what happened during the dinner between Prime Minister May and Jean-Claude Juncker, is serving to increase tension and make the impending negotiations even more difficult than they will be. This hardening nationalistic approach has provoked a major British supermarket chain, the Co-op, to announce that it will not stock any beef other than British beef on its shelves. While the Co-op does not stock Irish beef, it is clear that if other supermarkets in the United Kingdom follow suit, there will be clear consequences for the Irish beef sector. I expect the Ministers for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and Agriculture, Food and the Marine to raise these issues to ensure it will not become a trend. In the forthcoming negotiations Ireland needs to be an advocate for a calm, measured and firm approach.

The Tánaiste will be aware of a survey published by Chartered Accountants Ireland earlier today. It deals with the levels of awareness and preparedness of Irish businesses for the customs issues that will inevitably arise if the United Kingdom leaves the customs union, which seems a near certainty. The striking results of the survey should serve as a wake-up call for the Government which needs to realise it must do more to help businesses to prepare for the fall-out from Brexit if the United Kingdom leaves the customs union. The survey has found that there is a startling lack of practical customs knowledge and a lack of understanding of the issues that will arise if the United Kingdom leaves the customs union. Customs duty is primarily a self-assessment tax. Businesses have not had to deal with this issue for almost 25 years because of the Single European Market. There seems to be a distinct lack of corporate knowledge on the island of Ireland of how the customs system will work. The crucial point is that even in a soft Brexit scenario in which no trade tariffs would apply, significant onerous obligations would be placed on Irish businesses to comply with new customs arrangements. It is clear that we need to secure a funding mechanism at EU level to help Irish small and medium-sized enterprises to deal with the cash flow implications of compliance with new customs and VAT arrangements. We need a programme of education and resourcing in order that firms can deal with the significant extra cost and compliance burden that will arise. As part of the negotiations, we must secure agreement on the protection of the common transit area, which is key if Ireland is to be able to export to mainland Europe via the United Kingdom. What are the practical steps the Government is taking to help business to become more prepared for the serious and inevitable consequences of Brexit, regardless of the form it will take?

The Tánaiste

The points made by the Deputy are well understood and being acted on by the Government in all the work it is doing in preparation for Brexit. Everyone has to agree that it is a testament to those efforts that our priorities are so clearly reflected in the European Union's approach and have been stated in the guidelines. Our priorities have been highlighted in all of our discussions and in all of the bilateral work done by our embassies abroad, ambassadors and each individual Minister, including the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade. It is accepted that these priorities need to be protected as we move forward. The Government's intention is to intensify its efforts and focus on the economic implications of Brexit. Obviously, this is not where we want to be. We do not welcome the decision taken by the United Kingdom. We want to mitigate as much as possible in the Irish context the serious consequences it will have. We will focus on the economic implications of Brexit because we want to reinforce the ongoing competitiveness of the economy and protect it from the negative impact of Brexit. We will pursue every possible opportunity to ensure that will happen.

A further paper on the economic implications of the Brexit challenge is being prepared by the Government. It will draw on all of the work done across Departments and reflect the core economic themes outlined by the Taoiseach and others. We need sustainable fiscal policies that will ensure we will have the capacity to absorb and respond to economic shocks, not least from Brexit. We must have policies to make Irish enterprise more diverse and resilient, to diversify trade and investment patterns and to strengthen competitiveness. All of the Government's recent actions and decisions have been taken in support of these goals. Priority is being given to policy measures that dedicate resources to protect jobs and businesses in the sectors and regions that will be most affected by Brexit. As I said, we must take the economic opportunities arising from Brexit and help businesses to adjust to new logistical or trade barriers. All of these issues are priorities. The Deputy mentioned an announcement made by a UK retailer, the Co-op. It is important to note that the Co-op chain in Britain is not currently a customer of Irish meat exporters. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Michael Creed; the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and Bord Bia are very conscious of the need to ensure ongoing engagement with customers of Irish products in the United Kingdom. That engagement is continuing at the highest levels.

Deputy Michael McGrath

That is all very broad and general. The Tánaiste has not dealt with the core issue I put to her. Today's report provides a stark illustration of the lack of preparedness of Irish businesses for the possibility of the United Kingdom leaving the customs union. Such an eventuality would lead to increased costs, regulation, compliance requirements, complexity and, potentially, barriers to trade in the day-to-day operations of Irish businesses. What is the Government doing in practical terms to help businesses to prepare for these challenges? My real concern is that the focus of the negotiations in the next 18 months or so will be on the terms of the exit and that trade will come after this. Such an approach would be of no comfort to the tens of thousands of Irish workers who depend on trade with the United Kingdom on a day-to-day basis. What is being done in practical terms to help Irish businesses to make the preparations they need to make? I refer, for example, to the inclusion of the common transit area in the negotiations that are about to get under way.

The Tánaiste

Detailed discussions with all relevant stakeholders are being and have been held over a long period. We have held all-island conferences with the various stakeholders and businesses, North and South, east and west. The Deputy has asked what the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is doing to deal with agrifood issues.

In the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, there is a dedicated Brexit unit examining these issues and dealing with agrifood businesses exporting.

Deputy Robert Troy

There are just three people in it.

The Tánaiste

IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland are working with these companies, examining the issues. There is a Brexit response committee comprising different departmental divisions. As recently as 11 April, there was a meeting with all the stakeholders in the agricultural area. Close consultation with Bord Bia, Bord Iascaigh Mhara and Enterprise Ireland is ongoing. Additional resources have been given to those bodies to help them work with the stakeholders, explore the issues and prepare for them. Extra supports for dealing with Brexit-related issues have been given to these companies and bodies. These are the practical actions which are happening now. It is about working in detail with businesses and giving extra resources to those charged with managing and supporting these businesses to deal with the challenges Brexit will pose.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Yesterday the Tánaiste’s Cabinet colleague, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Zappone, voiced her support for a date to be set for a referendum on the eighth amendment. It is welcome that a senior Minister has publicly backed calls for a referendum to be held as soon as possible.

The eighth amendment and its consequences impact on thousands of women. It affects women and their families in every corner of this State. For far too long, women have been denied dignity, respect and basic services. They had their voices silenced and their rights denied. We cannot be silent any longer. Up to ten women and girls leave this State every day to avail of terminations abroad. That is the reality. These are not just women on a spreadsheet or in a news report. They are our sisters, our mothers and our friends. We cannot continue to fail them. The eighth amendment is a relic of the past. It has to go and be replaced with compassion.

A recent report published by the UN Human Rights Committee found that the constitutional clause, which bans abortion for women carrying a foetus with a fatal abnormality, subjects women to cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment. Sinn Féin, for its part, supports the right of a woman to seek termination of pregnancy where her life or mental health is at risk or in grave danger. We also support the choice to terminate pregnancy in the cases of fatal foetal abnormality, rape or incest. This requires a referendum and a repeal of the eighth amendment. It would also require the enactment of new legislation to allow for terminations in these cases.

By establishing the Citizens’ Assembly, the Government attempted to shirk its responsibility to address this most important matter. It was an attempt to block the Dáil from dealing with the eighth amendment and to stifle the obvious demand for a referendum as soon as possible. The Government’s political interests were placed ahead of the needs of women. Now that the assembly has concluded its deliberations on the eighth amendment, it is clear that people are not willing to stand for this treatment any longer. The assembly’s recommendations demonstrate a clear appetite for reform and change of the current situation regarding access to terminations. What is also clear is that there cannot be any further delay and any more kicking the can down the road on the part of the Government. The Oireachtas needs to do its job. We need to debate the issues and put the issue of the eighth amendment to the people in a referendum.

The women of Ireland need to know when this issue will be put. They need to know the Government’s mindset on the timing. Does the Tánaiste agree that a referendum should be held in the earliest possible timeframe? When will the Government allow for a referendum to be held? When will the people finally have their say on the eighth amendment?

The Tánaiste

I do not agree with the Deputy's comments on the Government’s approach to this issue. I was proud to be a member of the Government which dealt with the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act. The issues addressed in that Act had not been on the floor of this House, or had not been dealt with, until the previous Government decided to deal with them, as had been recommended by the Supreme Court many years previously.

This is a delicate and difficult issue for every individual and society as to what exactly the legislative framework ought to be. What we have had is a helpful and an important Citizens’ Assembly which addressed this issue and arrived at certain conclusions. That is the opinion of the Citizens’ Assembly. It is important we listen and examine carefully and await the final report in June on its deliberations. We will all learn quite a lot from reading the detail of its deliberations, once we receive the report. That was an important procedure with which Deputy will agree.

Where to from there? The Government has been clear that a committee will be established with all parties and Independents represented on it. That will take place over the next several months. Then the Dáil has to take decisions. I expect there will be a referendum after that. A clear process has been laid out in terms of the deliberations of this House. It is a different procedure to decide on legislation as opposed to hearing the opinions of the Citizens’ Assembly. No doubt, we will all take that into account.

Framing legislation in this area and what might replace the amendment is a complex issue. It demands the kind of approach the Government has laid out which involves the Dáil committee specifically examining it, and then the Dáil deciding where to go after that. There are timeframes laid out for that.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

This issue, perhaps like no other, has been marked by the politics of delay and of hypocrisy, as well as a politics that suggests women must wait. It is 25 years since the X case when a raped and traumatised child was dragged through our courts. Since then, as the Tánaiste knows, we have had an alphabet soup of tragedy and maltreatment of women, story after story piled high. Yet the political system stood still and looked the other way.

This politics of delay cannot be tolerated any longer. The Citizens’ Assembly was intended as a vehicle of political management rather than attaining any real clarity or result. The committee will be established but that too must work expeditiously. We must have a clear sense of when the referendum will be put and when people will have the opportunity to repeal the eighth amendment. The Tánaiste’s colleague, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Zappone, has no difficulty in stating her preference for an early referendum. Simply, will the Tánaiste confirm and clarify that this is a view shared by the Government?

The Tánaiste

It is in Irish women's interests that we move forward with this issue and consider the legislative approach we want to take. We have a bad history when it comes to women's reproductive rights. Quite clearly, we are at a point where further and detailed discussion is needed. As I said, no country in the world finds it easy to decide on the exact parameters around this issue or how it should be approached.

Clearly, the Government has set in motion an approach which involves a Dáil committee and will involve representatives of every Member across the House. It behoves every Member on this committee to come back to the Dáil, so decisions can be taken. There is a timeframe of a number of months for this committee. At that point then, the Government will take an overall approach.

My own belief, as I have often stated, is that the Constitution is not the place to deal with these complex issues. I believe a referendum should be held as early as possible.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Are Fine Gael and the Government still planning to introduce income-contingent loans for third level students?

As the Tánaiste knows, the report from the committee headed by Mr. Peter Cassells, Investing in National Ambition, set out three funding options for the third level sector, including a predominantly State-funded system, a system of increased State funding with continuing registration fees and the recommended third funding option, increased State funding with deferred payment of fees but with income-contingent loans levied on graduates.

The Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Bruton, informed Deputy Pringle and me on 5 April that his Department is undertaking what he termed "a technical evaluation" of how income-contingent loans would work. He seems to have pushed ahead with this study without consulting the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Skills. When will the technical evaluation be published and will it include a full cost-benefit analysis? Before the Minister gave this reply last month I chaired a meeting with the Union of Students in Ireland, USI, attended by a cross-section of Deputies. The union leaders, Ms Annie Hoey, Mr. Michael Kerrigan and their colleagues outlined powerful arguments against proceeding with student income-contingent loans. Internationally, where student loan schemes have been introduced, there are large-scale debt default rates. In Australia, for example, outstanding debt is over 35 billion Australian dollars, with average student debt at almost 40,000 Australian dollars per graduate. In England, the poorest 40% of students will graduate with debts of nearly £44,000 and the "financialisation" or sale of student debt to the private sector is another reprehensible feature of the English system.

The Minister, Deputy Bruton, along with the Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath, and I represent a constituency with districts where third level access is below 20%, and in many parishes it is just 35% or under that level. The introduction of student loans would have a further damaging impact on progression and access to third level education, especially for important sectors of society, including students with a disability, lone parents, first-time mature students, part-time and flexible learners, students from a farming background and students on grants.

One insuperable argument against income-contingent loans is the Irish tradition of emigration and the fact we are an emigrant nation. The Higher Education Authority recently indicated that 12% of graduates emigrate for a first job. The USI estimates that nearly 4,000 additional graduates will emigrate to avoid repayment of large graduate loans. Does the Tánaiste agree that one fundamental reason for not proceeding with income-contingent loans would be the major ongoing cost to the State as outlined at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Skills last Tuesday by Dr. Charles Larkin of Trinity College Dublin and Dr. Shaen Corbet of Dublin City University? They oppose income-contingent loans and characterise them as a very risky course of action for the Exchequer, with complex legislative set-up, administration and loan recovery systems, costing the State €10 billion over the first ten years.

Is Fine Gael still determined to introduce income-contingent loans given the party's opposition to treating third level education as a critical public good in the 2016 general election? The party's partners in Fianna Fáil are of course sitting on the fence with this, despite 2017 being the 50th anniversary of the great Donogh O'Malley introducing free second level education.

The Tánaiste

As the Deputy states, the Government and my party have emphasised the importance of higher education and it is a central part of the Government's plan to support a strong economy and deliver a fair society. The package of measures announced for the sector in the budget reflects this priority, which will help all students. To recap, we are providing an initial investment of €36.5 million in the sector this year and €160 million over the next three years. It is the first significant investment in the sector for nine years and we are in a position to do this because of the improving economy. The Minister, Deputy Bruton, has made it very clear he intends to continue that support. It is the first significant investment in nine years, a period in which State investment in higher education fell by 33%, or €463 million. We are now keeping pace with the demographic increases and there are also targeted initiatives in priority areas, particularly in trying to ensure there is more focus on research, flexible learning and dealing with thousands of students benefitting from initiatives. There is a multi-year spending plan for the sector and we want to ensure we have a sustainable system of funding going forward.

As the Deputy knows, in 2016 the Minister published the Cassells report and, as committed to in the programme for Government, the report is currently with the Oireachtas committee. The Minister has said this is an area where it would be preferable to have broad political consensus and he is working to build that here. The Oireachtas committee is examining the option mentioned by the Deputy as well as other options. The consultation paper on the introduction of the Exchequer mechanism was published in March and it stated that technical work will be undertaken on an income-contingent student loan scheme by an interdepartmental group in order to inform future policy options, including in light of the recommendations that will come from the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Skills. The work is of an administrative and technical nature and it will ensure the Department is in a position to respond once the committee has completed its work and published its recommendations. These issues are under ongoing consideration by the Department. The Minister will examine the final report and he is also doing some background work. No decision has been taken in this regard but the issues are being examined. Further work will be completed in order to ensure we have all the information we need.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I welcome the additional €38.5 million in the 2017 budget and the promise of €160 million over the next three budgets, as well as the proposal to increase the national training fund levy from 0.7% to 1% in forthcoming budgets. There must still be a fundamental and early decision on this and the Tánaiste did not reply to the central question of when the evaluation report will be produced and if there is an implementation plan for what I would regard as a very regressive proposal. It was her Government and the previous Fianna Fáil Government that slashed third level funding over the past eight or nine years, from almost €1.5 billion to under €1 billion. If the Government proceeds with this, it may as well tear up the national plan for equity of access to higher education for 2015 to 2018. With 45% of our workforce now being graduates, with education playing a primary role in Ireland's growth and recovery since the early 1990s, should the Government not look positively to the long-term earning power and taxes of graduates to fund a free third level system rather than embarking on a regressive, unwieldy and dangerous system of student loans? It should in this case follow the good example of Scotland, Germany and France.

The Tánaiste

I have no doubt these issues will be considered very carefully so there will be an equitable approach and we can ensure all our community can benefit from higher education. I will point out a couple of facts about the equity issue. Over 3,000 students from disadvantaged groups will benefit from the additional package of €8.5 million to support more disadvantaged students, including lone parents and Travellers, in attending higher level education. This includes the introduction of the full maintenance grant worth almost €6,000 from September 2017 for 1,100 postgraduate students in the lowest income category. That is absolutely targeted at equity issues that have been correctly raised by the Deputy. I can also speak about other initiatives for support, including the new frontier research programme, with work being done to cover increasing enrolments. There is also provision for expansion of apprenticeships and so on. There are quite a number of issues in addition to the Deputy's point on grants, with actions being taken to achieve equity in access to education.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

In September 2015 the Tánaiste promised, on behalf of the country, that we would accept some 4,000 refugees from Syria as part of a co-ordinated response from Europe to the refugee crisis, which in scale is beyond anything we have seen in my lifetime. In that country of approximately 23 million, 500,000 have died, with 2 million people disabled because of lost limbs or other disabilities. There are 6 million people displaced internally and there are now over 5 million displaced refugees outside their own country. It has not gone away as an issue, despite going off the news cycle. Almost 250,000 people in the first three months of the year were added to that list. Turkey has taken some 3 million refugees.

Lebanon has taken approximately 1 million, Jordan has taken approximately 700,000, the rest of Europe is taking 900,000 and we have committed to taking 4,000. We set a timeline of two years from the introduction of the programme. How many refugees from Syria have we accepted to date? How many does the Tánaiste expect us to have received by the deadline we have set?

The people of Ballaghaderreen and those at other emergency reception centres have shown real strength and done us proud with the welcome they have given the refugees. However, from what I hear from the people involved, the State, unfortunately, is not doing enough. We are not getting the welcome right. We are not engaging local communities. Additional resources and additional community officers must be provided to help with the integration of these people. We could learn from the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland, which has a far better record in terms of involving non-governmental organisations, NGOs, and other outside bodies to be part of the welcome. What changes in resources will the Tánaiste make in her Department? I hear that there is a lack of resources in respect of translation facilities and administrative and other staff and that this is part of the reason we are behind our target for welcoming people.

Finally, we hear that since the introduction of the new international refugee process which was put in place early last January Ireland is still operating one of the least humane systems for asylum seekers. Next to Lithuania Ireland is the least progressive in terms of allowing refugees in asylum centres to work. I received a telephone call in my house during the week through some contacts in the Syrian refugee movement from a young man who told me, "I am going to the city of Ballaghaderreen". God bless us, that is great. It could be great for the town of Ballaghaderreen, but we must get the refugees working. We must not have that young man losing his spirit, confidence or mental health further by leaving him to languish there. We must get such people working. What will the Tánaiste do to allow that to become part of the welcome for the 4,000 people we have committed to take?

The Tánaiste

We proactively committed to taking in 4,000 refugees under the relocation and resettlement programmes. Most countries in Europe agreed to accept certain numbers based on criteria that were established by the European Union, but we proactively agreed to do it. Since then, huge resources have been put in place to ensure that we will meet our commitment. Refugees are arriving almost every three weeks at present. As I have often said, there was a slow start to the programme not just in Ireland but also across Europe. The reason is that the systems in Greece and Italy were chaotic for registration. As we saw, refugees moving throughout Europe were not being registered. That situation has changed dramatically and the refugees who arrive in Greece are all being registered, given accommodation and arrangements are made for them to be relocated to other countries. Once that system was up and running Ireland was in a position to receive the refugees it had indicated it would receive. My Department has been sending teams to both Lebanon and Greece regularly over the last 18 months to ensure the programme works and proceeds.

I agree with what the Deputy said about community responses in this country. We are fortunate to see the responses given by communities to refugees in need both in Ballaghaderreen and in other places. We have not experienced some of the attitudes and reactions to refugees that have occurred in other countries. Of course, Ireland is not a front-line state and is not dealing with the numbers that there are in other countries. However, the programme is under way. We are also working on the motion passed by the Dáil in respect of taking minors from Calais. That programme has started and young people have already arrived in this country. We have sent teams to France on a number of occasions to ensure that the commitment is being met. However, it takes time.

Over 1,000 refugees have arrived under the commitment we made. They are primarily from Greece and Lebanon. There have been delays in Italy because Italy wants us to accept the security it carries out and will not let An Garda Síochána carry out the vetting there. We are not prepared to accept that. We have had detailed discussions with the people concerned to try to resolve that, but we have not been able to resolve it for security reasons. We will have to take more people from Greece to fulfil the numbers to which we have committed.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I welcome the Tánaiste's response and I commend the work that has been done. However, nobody believes that we will reach our commitment if it has taken 18 months for just 1,000 refugees out of 4,000 to arrive. I would welcome the possibility of taking in the additional 3,000 within the next few months but I do not believe it will be possible. However, let us make an effort and see if it can be done. Will the Tánaiste commit to making that possible, to ensure we maintain public confidence and maintain the welcome given not just in Ballaghaderreen but also in Dungarvan and other centres? We must put more resources in the Tánaiste's Department. The problems do not all lie with the Italian civil service. We must examine what resources we are deploying, including within the Department, given that we are so far behind in what we said we would do. The Tánaiste must deploy additional resources and part of those resources must tap into community resources to achieve a multiplier.

Finally, what comes next after the autumn? What comes next in our commitment? Where do we go from here? This is 4,000 out 5 million or 6 million refugees and 11 million displaced people in the country, so it is only a drop. What is our policy on what comes next after this original commitment?

The Tánaiste

We have accelerated the intake from Lebanon under the resettlement programme and more than 1,000 people will have arrived here from the refugee camps by the end of the year. We took 520 extra. Due to the slowdown on the other area of relocation we took more people from the refugee camps to increase the numbers. We continue to be flexible in terms of trying to respond to the need that exists and to meet our commitment on the numbers. The Deputy referred to resources. All Departments have committed personnel resources. A stakeholder meeting is chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Stanton, on a regular basis to ensure we respond to the needs of the refugees who are arriving, be they in respect of social protection, health or education. They have complex needs and these must be met. They demand a response not only from the Department of Justice and Equality, and we have put in extra resources, but from all Departments. That is essential.

The current commitment in the resettlement and relocation programme finishes in September or October this year. At that point the European Union will examine the situation again.