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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 30 May 2017

Vol. 952 No. 3

Leaders' Questions

I have consistently raised with the Taoiseach the disconnect between rhetoric and reality and between aspiration and delivery. Nowhere are they to be seen more than in the damning report issued yesterday by Professor Geoffrey Shannon, special rapporteur to the Government on child protection. It is a report that calls into question the commitment of the Government to fulfil its constitutional obligations in the protection of children.

The Taoiseach will recall that in 2012 the Government held a referendum on the protection of children's rights, whereby the State recognises and affirms "the natural and imprescriptible rights of all children and shall, as far as practicable, protect and vindicate those rights". However, yesterday's report shows that the State has not vindicated the rights of the most vulnerable children in society. Professor Shannon calls it a wake-up call. It is a damning indictment of how we go about trying to protect vulnerable children. He analysed over 5,400 cases over eight years and said they revealed many unpalatable truths about our society. He also said: "Children are treated like human trash in some of these cases." He found failures in the PULSE, police using leading systems effectively, system, a lack of child protection training for gardaí, poor and limited inter-agency co-operation and co-ordination and repeat removals of children. In other words, children in vulnerable situations were removed by gardaí under section 12, only to end up back in the same vulnerable setting shortly afterwards. The complete absence of an out-of-hours social work service is highlighted in the report and Professor Shannon says there is also a troubling gap in how children with behavioural difficulties are treated by the system. This, in many ways, represents a damning indictment of the Government's performance since the enactment of the change to the Constitution in 2012. That amendment was all about protecting the children of the nation, particularly the most weak and vulnerable. Why is there no comprehensive out-of-hours social work service? What does the Government intend to do about this? Why is there so little emphasis in the Garda Training College in Templemore on child protection training as a core part of the training programme? This is something that emerged strongly from the audit. Why is that so? There is a need to fundamentally change our culture in how we protect vulnerable children in the community.

Obviously, I am upset about this. The establishment of Tusla as the Child and Family Agency was part of the overall strategy of making children and the family central in Ireland, with the appointment of a senior Minister to the Cabinet, the establishment of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, holding of a referendum on children's rights and passing of subsequent legislation in various respects that would impact on society and social Ireland. Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, is funded by the taxpayer to a substantial amount. Last night's programme made for harrowing viewing, to say the least. It showed the unconscionable circumstances in which some children in this country found themselves. It is unacceptable. This is in the place, their home, where they are supposed to feel most loved, safe and valued. I believe I can speak for everybody here and every parent who watched in saying it was distressing viewing for parents. I say to the social workers who feel they are battling a system and the trainees who feel the same way that they should not be afraid to speak up and speak out. Many feel gagged and unable to speak the truth about what they know might be happening in some places.

There are a number of criticisms made in the report, in the audit commissioned by the Garda and in the media coverage of it. They relate, in particular, to the out-of-hours social work service and the level of communication between Tusla and An Garda Síochána. It must be remembered that the period under review is 2008 to the end of 2015 and that there have been continuous improvements in the child protection area and Tusla operations since. Professor Shannon, whom I greatly respect, at the launch of the report on Monday, 29 May, expressed his full confidence in Tusla's child protection framework. On the out-of-hours social work service, a significant enhancement of the service took place in November 2015 and there is now a national service which facilitates 24-hour Garda contact with a social worker in cases where removal of a child under section 12 is being contemplated.

There is emergency foster and residential care for a child removed from his or her family under this provision. As part of this service, social workers are available on the ground at night, over weekends and on bank holidays to assist An Garda Síochána in what are the busiest areas, namely, Dublin, Cork city, Kildare and Wicklow. In the remaining counties the volume of calls indicates that contact with Tusla social workers by telephone has been sufficient to date, but this is clearly under review. Some concerns have been expressed about the placement of such children in Garda stations and hospitals. I have been reassured that social admissions to hospital take place only in exceptional circumstances and only where a placement is for the child's own safety. Tusla does not request the Garda to keep a child over part of a night. That is a Garda decision.

On the level of communication between Tusla and An Garda Síochána, I am informed that regular strategic liaison meetings take place at senior level to deal with the inadequacy pointed to.

The Taoiseach's last line, that Tusla does not instruct An Garda to keep anybody in a Garda station and that it is a matter for the Garda, sums it up. It sums up the pathetic nature of buck-passing and is trying to mask the reality of the findings of the report, which states the initial de facto place of safety for children is the Garda station. There is no point in dressing it up or trying to sugar-coat it by saying it is a Garda decision. One should remember that section 12 contains a very rare power. A garda does not have to go to the courts or anything, but where he or she is convinced that a child is in danger, in the home or another setting, he or she must take him or her out of that danger. However, he or she has nowhere to put the child. There is no comprehensive out-of-hours social work service available.

It is not about people being gagged and so on. This is a comprehensive report. In fairness, I commend the Garda for commissioning the audit, but it involved very extensive consultation with gardaí on the exercise of the section 12 power. There is frustration and annoyance and a lack of basic resources in terms of the number of social workers in the field in this area. The de facto position is that there is no proper comprehensive out-of-hours social work service available; that is the reality. We need to go behind the language, rhetoric and defensive position, acknowledge the essential truths in the report and resolve to deal with them. The next budget should be the first signal on the resource side of such a commitment.

As far as the Government and I are concerned, the issue should not be about the protection of the structure of Tusla but about the protection of children and accountability and transparency with regard to why the taxpayer puts money into Tusla in the first place. That should be evident to everybody. If that is not the case, we have to deal with the issue. My understanding - the Minister has obviously asked for a full report on it - is that work is already well under way on the many issues commented on by Dr. Shannon in his final report. Tusla will continue to roll out its national child care information system, which will significantly improve the information available on vulnerable children.

I understand the Garda national child protection unit is carrying out an audit at local level of the child protection operations between Tusla and An Garda Síochána to see what is happening, or, perhaps more importantly, what is not happening. Divisional protective service units are being established in all 28 Garda divisions and effective liaison with Tusla will be a central feature of these units. Why not? In other places there are people who sit around the table from all of the various sectors to discuss these issues on a regular basis. A joint protocol is being finalised between Tusla and the Garda on the operation of section 12, which is an important section of the Act. This will provide clear and extensive guidance on a range of issues affecting children at risk. It will address many of the issues raised in the report by Dr. Shannon.

Best practice in child protection is evolving all the time. Research and reports like that of Dr. Shannon, commissioned by the Garda, provide a very necessary and valuable opportunity to review, reflect and strive to have an improved service.

We are not finished with this at all. This has to be about the protection of children and not about the protection of the structure. I share the Deputy's view on that.

The report from Dr. Geoffrey Shannon, the State's special rapporteur on child protection, on the use by An Garda Síochána of section 12 of the Child Care Act 1991 and the details that emerged on last night's "RTÉ Investigates" programme are, as the Taoiseach has acknowledged, both frightening and scandalous. According to Dr. Shannon, co-operation between Tusla and An Garda Síochána is "overwhelmingly inadequate". He made 17 recommendations. As some of these are so basic and common sense, it raises the question as to why these were not put in place long before this. For example, there is a recommendation on the need for all gardaí to undergo diversity training and the need for inter-agency co-operation. The big failures in the system are the lack of capacity, the absence of an out-of-hours service and Tusla's reliance on private foster care services.

Dr. Shannon stated that vulnerable children are getting an inferior service and that it is absolutely scandalous that some of these private services refuse to take children with challenging behaviour. I cannot think of a more telling indictment of the State's child protection services than the charge that vulnerable children are receiving an inferior service. I am very certain the Taoiseach is upset by this. However, I am sure that he will also accept that expressions of regret just will not cut it anymore. The child protection system is broken and the Taoiseach's Government is charged with fixing it. I call on the Taoiseach to ensure Dr. Shannon's 17 recommendations are implemented in full and that this is done immediately.

Citizens will be shocked to hear that child protection training for gardaí is basically non-existent. Contrary to what the Taoiseach said about strategic meetings at a senior level, according to this report, the lack of co-operation between Tusla and An Garda Síochána is simply breath-taking. Last week, we discussed the crisis in child and adolescent mental health services. This week it is a new set of scandals. What will be next week or the week after? This is not the first set of revelations about Tusla. It is the duty of the Taoiseach's Government to change that reality. The CEO of Tusla, Mr. Fred McBride, and Tusla must be held accountable. He should appear before the Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs. The Minister, Deputy Zappone, should appear before the Dáil as quickly as possible to give the Government's response to this damning report.

The initial response of Tusla, apparently attempting to undermine Dr. Shannon, is totally and absolutely unacceptable. That is the knee-jerk reaction of most of the system in Ireland when criticised, whether by a whistleblower or the special rapporteur on child protection. It is to undermine the criticism first. My questions are very simple. Will the Taoiseach fully commit to ensuring 24-hour access to social workers throughout this State as an urgent priority? A total of 70% of the children taken in under section 12 were cases the gardaí were already aware of. Will the Taoiseach ensure that these cases are immediately followed up on to ensure the welfare of these children, including the children at the centre of the "RTE Investigates" programme? Will he initiate a whole-of-Government response, rather than just a ministerial response, to this scandal, including an audit like that carried out by Dr. Shannon being conducted across the entire child protection system?

I cannot disagree with the central issue of Deputy Adams's comments. This has to be about accountability and not about zero accountability. The Child and Family Agency was set up for a particular purpose as part of the response of Government to placing children and children's voices at the centre of Irish society, with a senior Ministry and Department dedicated directly to children. There was a referendum on children's rights and there is legislation, dealing which issues from sexual abuse to marriage equality, which have covered issues of family and children.

The report by Dr. Shannon speaks for itself. It is a very good report, a damning report and a very clear report. He has made 27 recommendations, which must and will be followed through on. The Minister will meet the Minister for Justice and Equality to address the issue of communication between Tusla and An Garda Síochána. As Deputy Adams is aware, section 12 of the Child Care Act 1991 is an essential mechanism under which An Garda Síochána performs its child protection function and is only used as a measure of last resort. The Garda Commissioner must respond to the report in respect of the training of gardaí, including training for diversity, and the PULSE system and the deficiencies identified therein. Deputies will recall that the Government has already dedicated substantial resources for investment in Garda IT infrastructure. A total of €330 million, including €205 million in the capital plan, will be provided between 2016 and 2021. Members will appreciate that the design, commissioning and the delivery of such a large-scale IT project takes time and we must get it right in the first place.

The report comments on deficiencies in child protection training for gardaí, which is very concerning and needs to be seriously addressed. While the design of course provision is a matter for the Garda Commissioner in the first instance, I am advised that the current Garda student and probationer training programme incorporates modules that address issues like sexual assault and the Children First guidelines. The extent to which the existing training programme should be expanded or amended on foot of Dr. Shannon's recommendations must be addressed by the Garda Commissioner and An Garda Síochána in their response to his report.

While acknowledging the serious issues raised for An Garda Síochána in the report, it is worth noting that there have been a number of important developments in Garda structures, including the establishment of the Garda National Protective Services Bureau and the creation of the divisional protective services units. I am advised that it is also proposed to create a national child protection unit within An Garda Síochána so some things are happening. My answer to Deputy Adams's question about whether this will receive a whole-of-Government response is "Yes". The answer to the question about whether we will undertake to fulfil the 17 recommendations made by Dr. Shannon is also "Yes".

I thank the Taoiseach for his answer. What we need now are results. In 2012, the people of this State voted to enshrine children's rights in the Constitution. Sinn Féin and others canvassed in that campaign. I met many people who were sceptical because they did not trust the State. If the Constitution is to have any value for these children, the Government must acknowledge that it is failing them and failing in our constitutional obligations to them. I understand that the issues involved go back a long time. The Taoiseach inherited this problem. He did not create it. In the past, this State outsourced its responsibilities to churches, religious orders and other institutions. This is clearly no longer acceptable and the Taoiseach played his part in that. Popular outrage is the guarantee that this will never happen again but we should not lose our sense of popular outrage. Outsourcing the responsibility for children, particularly vulnerable children, to private for-profit companies should be equally unacceptable. At the time that Tusla was established, we warned that without adequate resources, capacity and a change in culture, the initiative would fail.

Our child protection system is broken and is essentially dysfunctional. I welcome the Taoiseach's straightforward answer to my questions but if we are not to be back here next year or the year after or if somebody other than the Taoiseach and I is not to be back here again looking at another report like this, the Taoiseach needs to initiate that full Government response to which he committed and a complete overhaul of the child protection system.

I did not have time to say it previously but the Garda Commissioner's modernisation and renewal programme from 2016 to 2021 and the policing plan for this year contain a commitment to implement a new Garda diversity and inclusion strategy. I understand that this is expected to be finalised shortly.

I am advised that the new Garda strategy will embrace the recommendation from the Ombudsman for Children, arising from its review of the manner in which the Garda Síochána invoked its powers under section 12 of the Child Care Act 1991 with regard to two Roma children, which was an issue of national public discussion and concern some time ago. As part of this work, the Garda Síochána is committed to further training its workforce to develop its cultural competence in interacting with minority communities.

I will finally say to the Deputy that in so far as my tenure continues here, I will see to it that this is initiated in respect of children. We have done so much in terms of preparations, and one of the central features of the child strategy issue has been the setting up of the Child and Family Agency, Tusla. We want to see that this is enabled to do its work properly and, as I said to Deputy Micheál Martin, the central issue here is about the protection of children, not the protection of jobs or the protection of a structure. I will see that this happens.

I do not doubt the Taoiseach's sincerity on this issue, but I think all of us were shocked by the report of the special rapporteur on children and the screening last night by "RTE Investigates". It was a special broadcast looking at the case studies and findings of Dr. Geoffrey Shannon as well as the detail of yet another disturbing case in my own region, the south east. Dr. Geoffrey Shannon has found chronic systems failures in the functions of Tusla. He called for a change of culture across the entire child protection system. How many times have we heard the phrase "a change of culture" in the last few weeks? His words at a press conference yesterday sear into us, that there were children treated as human trash in some of these cases. It is beyond shocking. To read the case studies of the report is sobering and shocking. An intoxicated woman slapped her eight-month old baby in a fast food restaurant, threw the baby in the air and dragged the child across wet ground. Three young children, aged five, two and less than a year, were wandering around the streets unsupervised, narrowly avoiding being hit by traffic. Two children, aged two and six years, were unsupervised and watching television while their mother was out drinking. These are not the worst of the cases.

The Taoiseach has said that the Minister, Deputy Katherine Zappone, is to meet the Minister, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, to discuss inter-agency co-operation between gardaí and Tusla. That is one recommendation. Improving the sharing of information between the Garda and Tusla is welcome but it is not enough. I cannot accept the Minister, Deputy Katherine Zappone's assertion this morning that Tusla is fit for purpose. I do not believe anybody who watched the programme last night accepts that this is the current reality, whatever the potential of Tusla. My colleague, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, has been calling for some time now for a comprehensive 24-hour social work service for children at risk. It is not a phone line, but a service that delivers the same protection for children as that which is delivered during normal office hours, and to every part of the country.

Will the Taoiseach commit to the delivery of such a 24-hour comprehensive service, and will he set out the timeline? I do not expect him to set out the timeline this minute, but will he commit to setting a timeline for the instigation of such a service? Will he make sure that all gardaí receive appropriate child care protection training? He mentioned that there is a new module in training in Templemore Garda training college now. What about the huge existing cohort of gardaí? Will they be retrained? Will the Taoiseach tell this House what other changes will be introduced, so that the referendum that we passed to vindicate the rights of children - we worked together in government to ask the people to support that - will become a reality and not merely an aspiration?

I am not happy about the situation that has arisen here. I am pleased that Dr. Shannon's report is as authentic and straightforward as it is. Tusla was the agency that said that it would be a ferocious corporate parent, looking after children. There are clearly questions to be answered here as to what was happening with public time, public money and public employees when children, as identified in this programme, were in the situation and circumstances in which they found themselves.

I thank Deputy Howlin for his comment about being serious about this. It is a case where this structure will, like all other structures, seek to defend itself. The result is that vulnerable children are in very serious circumstances in some cases. It is our responsibility to see that everything humanly possible is done to put that right and if that requires further answers from Tusla, then so be it. As I said to Deputy Martin, this is not about zero accountability; it is about full accountability in respect of the most important people in the country who are our children. I want to meet the principals involved here. I want to speak to Dr. Shannon and to Tusla. I also want to speak to both Ministers. We cannot have a situation where there is a lack of engagement between the authorities and the agencies involved, the Garda and Tusla.

I remember attending the launch of Tusla in Dublin Castle with the then Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, and we put forward the proposition that Tusla was a radical step forward in the protection of children. Dr. Shannon's report points out serious inadequacies and we have to deal with those. I undertake to do so.

In the history of the State - we celebrated the centenary of 1916 last year - our most grievous failing has been in the protection of children. That is why, in Government together, we looked at issues such as constitutional change, a Department for children and a Minister dedicated to children. All of those tasks were done, but have they brought about this cultural change we are talking about that will deliver meaningful protection for every child?

I welcome what the Taoiseach has said in terms of him taking the initiative to talk to everybody. We need now to have that conversation here so that we have constant reporting, not only when issues arise and because we have asked the rapporteur or some agency to tell us about it. We should have constant reviews and discussions about how we implement all of these changes that we brought about. In many ways, changing the law, establishing a Department and even changing the Constitution is the easy bit.

I fully agree. It is about the change of the culture here. The culture has been one of defence and structural protection. The purpose and focus of Tusla was to deal with children and the protection of children and the care and the comfort and facilities for children. As Deputy Howlin rightly says, we should not have to wait for any rapporteur's report to know what is happening here. If there are inadequacies between the Garda communications and Tusla, then I will rectify that. If this requires regular political oversight and monitoring, let us rectify that. One cannot have children living in fear in urine-soaked clothes in situations where they deserve the protection and the support of the State. There is nothing more important than this.

I thank Dr. Shannon for his report, but let us see that the 17 recommendations are implemented. I will be speaking to both the Minister for Justice and Equality and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, but also to Tusla. I am not happy about this. It goes to the central issue here. This is about changing a culture from one of protection of structure and jobs to one of protection of children.

Former Garda press officer, Superintendent Dave Taylor, claims that he sent a text to the Garda Commissioner, Nóirín O'Sullivan, some years ago in which he told her that a journalist had interviewed a person making allegations against Maurice McCabe. Superintendent Taylor claims Commissioner O'Sullivan sent a one-word reply, "Perfect." We are told now that Commissioner O'Sullivan's phone from that time has gone missing and cannot be provided to the Charleton tribunal - perfect. Superintendent Taylor's phone has not been provided to the Charleton tribunal either. It was taken from him as part of an internal Garda investigation led by Commissioner O'Sullivan's husband and has not been returned to him.

Commissioner O' Sullivan's husband has Superintendent Taylor's phone and the Commissioner cannot find her own phone - perfect, again. A senior Garda source told The Irish Times that "A search of Garda headquarters has taken place in recent weeks to try to find the missing phones, but there is little hope of the material being found at this stage". I would say not. Was that phone officially reported missing? If so, when exactly? Was Martin Callinan's phone officially reported missing? If so, when exactly? I am given to understand that Nóirín O'Sullivan used a second personal phone, known as the "off-site" phone, for some Garda business. Has this phone been sought or has she lost it too?

More than 1,200 people at 100 sampling points in all constituencies were asked last Tuesday and Wednesday, before the story of the missing phones broke, whether Nóirín O'Sullivan should resign. A total of 57% said she should resign, 23% said she should not, while 19% expressed no opinion. This means that nearly three out of every four who expressed an opinion said that she should go. The people who are policed by An Garda Síochána, the people who pay their wages, have spoken decisively on this issue. The Government's failure to act reveals a huge democratic deficit on policing and threatens to open up a crisis of legitimacy for An Garda Síochána.

There has been lots of talk this week about legacy. This is all part of the Taoiseach's legacy and it is far from perfect. Is the Taoiseach going to continue to keep the Garda Commissioner in her position and allow the further undermining of the Charleton tribunal?

The central point the Deputy makes is that the Government has failed to act on this issue but I disagree. I believe that Mr. Justice Charleton is the most appropriate person to carry out the required investigation. He has already adopted an absolutely no-nonsense approach to dealing with the business before him. He has set out the timelines, the strategy and the focus of public hearings. Deputy Barry has come into this House with a report from a journalist that a phone is missing that was in the possession of the Garda Commissioner. I do not know whether that is true or whether it is an allegation that stands up but I expect that Mr. Justice Charleton will find out the truth of that. He has already pointed out that public hearings on this matter will take place in July. Obviously he is a person of long experience, having worked on the Morris tribunal and having dealt with matters as complex as this in the past. He is the very best person to deal with the matter. I reject the Deputy's assertion that the Government has not done anything about this. The Government has set up a full formal commission of investigation under a very competent sole member to deal with the matter. The terms of reference of the tribunal are comprehensive and Mr. Justice Charleton will not stand on ceremony in getting to the truth of the issue. I would be loath to accept what the Deputy has said because I do not have any idea whether it is true. It is an allegation and a report. I would much prefer to leave the determination of the facts and the truth to Mr. Justice Charleton. I have every faith that he will discharge his duties and responsibilities to the utmost level of satisfaction.

Perhaps the Taoiseach might ask the Garda Commissioner about the phone, try to establish the position and then let the House know. On the question of legacy, the Taoiseach will want part of his legacy to be the speech where he criticised the church and mentioned, among other things, the Magdalen laundries. The Magdalen laundries of this day and age are the direct provision centres. What has happened there, on the Taoiseach's watch, has been nothing short of a scandal.

Deputy, it is well established that on Leaders' Questions you pose a question on one topic, and any subsequent questions are on the same topic. To introduce the Magdalen laundries or other matters-----

The topic relates to the legacy of the Taoiseach.

No. Your topic clearly related to the matters before Mr. Justice Charleton at present.

I want to ask the Taoiseach about news that broke as we came into the Chamber. It relates to the issue of asylum seekers.

No. It is not in order.

It is a third issue.

Deputy Barry, will you stick with the topic you raised? It might not be in order either, but you raised it anyway.

Why is it not in order?

Are you saying it is not in order?

Since you have already raised the Charleton inquiry and issues pertinent to that inquiry, if you have a further question on that, it will be accepted.

I had wished to ask the Taoiseach about the news that broke at lunchtime regarding the asylum seekers.

It is a separate issue.

This is a really serious ruling from the Supreme Court.

Of course it is, but it is not-----

It is a separate issue.

It is a separate issue.

Okay. I will ask the Taoiseach about it outside the forum of Leaders' Questions.

The Deputy may do so if he wishes.

Fine. Thank you, Deputy Barry.

I will answer the Deputy's question. He knows quite well what he is doing in here. He wants to raise as many subjects as he can. That is his political business.

He will get no answers anyway.

As Deputy Barry knows, the Charleton tribunal made an interim report to the Clerk of the Dáil on 18 May last. In that report, the sole member outlined the parties who have been granted representation before the tribunal. They include Sergeant Maurice McCabe; Superintendent David Taylor, who is a former Garda press officer; the Garda Commissioner; and the former Garda Commissioner, Martin Callinan. According to the interim report, the Garda Commissioner and the former Garda Commissioner have agreed to waive privilege in respect of records in their possession. A slate of public hearings on this matter will be held in July of this year under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice Charleton. That is the place where the accuracy, the veracity and the truth will be established. The matters presented here by Deputy Barry, on the basis of a journalist's report or whatever, will then be established beyond "Yea" or "Nay". I would much prefer to await the outcome of the deliberations under the direction of Mr. Justice Charleton than to rely on reports, the truth or otherwise of which I cannot stand over.

The Government has ignored many reports for long enough.

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